Good Faith Arguments

or bad faith actors...

In my previous post about critical thinking and being able to be challenged on your ideas, I stressed that it is important that people be able to question in order to advance. This is absolutely true. If people cannot question, people cannot grow. If a person cannot be challenged there is no reason to be bothered with that person.

That said, let’s talk about what sort of challenges fall into what category. There are good faith challenges. These are challenges that are based on the information at hand. The person has a question, they formulate it into a cohesive train of thought, and ask it with the intention of understanding the subject matter more. This is someone that is genuine in their approach.

Then there are bad faith challenges. These are very different than good faith challenges, and are asked with the purpose of the bad faith actor proving to themselves that they are right, and the other person is wrong. That in and of itself isn’t a negative, however, it is the approach that is. Bad faith approaches are made in a derogatory way. They are meant to be demeaning, or they are meant to be misleading. They often are antagonistic, or they are manipulative.

I deal with both approaches quite often in my writing. If you have followed me long enough I am sure you have seen them in the comment sections either here, or on Quora. Most people that read my work here do so because they enjoy it, and the comment section tends to be full of intellectual curiosity, excellent points, and personal insight into whatever the post is about. That is a great environment.

However, that doesn’t mean that I don’t get a few bad actors here, but I get a large number of them on Quora. I am bringing this up because, while bad faith arguments don’t bother me, I have a simple way of dealing with them, which is the removal of their comments, and a ban or block if it is warranted, something I have noticed is that neurotypicals often have an emotional drive to respond to these types of people on their own writing, or even on mine. I have even had good faith inquiries that were taken wrong by a reader, and they followed it up with a vitriolic angry response.

Emotions can make a person want to reply to someone that does not deserve their time. I can understand that when a person says something that is offensive, clapping back can feel pretty good. It must, because it seems to be a regular response. However, another response I see is taking the bad-faith actor personally and feeling bad about what they did or said.

I am not speaking about trolls necessarily, as they tend to be so ridiculous that they do not warrant anything other than an eye roll, reporting their comments, deleting them, and blocking them. I mean people that are “asking questions” that are clearly meant to induce a response. It isn’t true that every challenge is worthy of your time, your thoughts, or your effort, and trying to be reasonable with some people is an exercise in futility. You have to understand that they aren’t there for a conversation, they are there to get under your skin.

These sorts of challenges will often be based on fallacies, to begin with. In my writing, this tends to be based on something that requires tier twelve understanding to answer, but the “asker” is at tier one, but very antagonistic in their beliefs.

Just for reference, tier twelve knowledge would be understanding the difference between ASPD, psychopathy, and sociopathy. Knowing that the DSM is not meant to be a diagnostic bible. How ASPD and psychopathy are different, that their difference is widely discussed, and that psychopathy not being in the DSM means literally nothing. Tier one, of course, would be the understanding of psychopathy through the lens of the myths and tropes around it.

Here is an example of that:

With all due respect, you're very, very wrong about the payoff aspect, because they get the payoff of power and control by sadism. At their core, these types want power and control. Even many serial killers and serial rapists tend to torture their victims and hold them captive, rather just killing them, for this exact reason.

Can I suggest you read more about psychopaths, specifically malignant ones? Your reply suggests you may not see the whole picture.

This comment has so many assumptions built into it that are incorrect it would take a great deal of time to go through it, dissect it, explain that they are wrong, how they are wrong, providing the necessary citations, only to have all of that be immediately dismissed because it contradicts their worldview, that it is not worth my time to try.

Other times you can engage, and attempt to educate, but once you run against someone's edict of rightness, there is nothing you can do to change their perspective. This exchange happened when the person replied to a five-year-old comment I left on someone else’s answer:

Athena Walker

You are listing the signs of ASPD, not psychopathy. They are not the same thing. Psychopathy is a variant brain structure, and less than one percent of us have antisocial traits. That is what is focused on because all the studies are done on prisoners. So of course they have those traits.

Hurting herself to want your reaction is sadistic, not psychopathic. Sadism is extremely rare to be comorbid with psychopathy. It is not all that unusual with neurotypicals.

Intelligence and attractiveness having anything to do with psychopathy is an old myth, it is not grounded in reality. Especially the IQ one.

Psychopaths cannot have bipolar disorders. You have two contrasting conditions there. One that has blunted and missing emotions, and one that consists of extremely high and low emotions. This isn’t possible as we are literally lacking the structure in the brain that creates these moods.

She sounds like a narcissist, not a psychopath. Possibly a malignant narcissist. I could see that. Psychopathy is something I know very well. I am one, but I also research it extensively. There is a huge misunderstanding with psychopathy in the psychiatric realm. I am happy to give you the rundown of it if you would like, I have a pretty good overview. However, it is long. If you want to read it, let me know and I will post it.

User

What? A pwASPD can have bipolar disorder or depression comorbidly. It occurs in 10 to 20% of the antisocial population.

Athena Walker

Psychopathy has nothing to do with ASPD. ASPD is a behavioral diagnosis only. Literally any person alive can be diagnosed with ASPD so long as their behavior matches the criteria. Most people with ASPD are neurotypical and most psychopaths do not have ASPD. Psychopaths cannot be bipolar or have depression, ever. Our brain structure and chemical processing disallows this ever being a possibility

User

It's not worth discussing this with you, since your understanding of ASPD comorbidity is subpar. Just because the psychopathic response to depression is atypical, doesn't mean the symptoms don't exist. You’re just spreading outdated information, no matter how arrogant you sound.

Enjoy your day.

Athena Walker

Because I say so does not an argument make. As that is the substance of your argument, while at the same time demonstrating that you are not informed as to the difference between psychopathy and ASPD, is arrogance.

User

Sure thing buddy (gently pats the head).

You don’t need to engage with people like this. They won’t change their mind regardless of whether or not you do. You will only keep running against the grain of an emotional cheese grater if you do. You won’t make headway with them, and they aren’t there because they are looking for a discussion. They are there looking to insult and demean you because they think that they know more than you.

An honest discussion is one that happens because someone doesn’t understand something, or because they believe that they do, and want to see what you have to say about their point. Those discussions are interesting and often can provide valuable progression for both parties understanding. I always encourage those sorts of discussions, though I will admit that having a person honestly asking a question that is tier one in understanding can be a bit tedious to walk through the information as it does take a great deal of time. However, so long as they are really interested in the information, and don’t mind a bit of reading, that’s something I am willing to do.

What I am not willing to do is entertain people that have no interest in engaging on a real level, and neither should you. People will do what they can to get a reaction out of you. People also can be very arrogant about what they think they know. There are also people that simultaneously are both of these things at once. They want to cause you to react, and they are very condescending in their approach. When you refuse to engage, they will claim it is because you refuse to be challenged instead of having any insight into their own behavior.

The next time you have one of these opportunities pop up really ask yourself what you think you will gain from the interaction. Do you think that you will make such excellent arguments that the other person can’t help but be persuaded, or do you feel that their intentional rudeness has to be met with some pushback, or do you want to return the favor because it would be cathartic? None of these will net you anything more than your time wasted. You won’t feel better,

I know this because people get very worked up over these things and will message me on Quora about what happened and how they are feeling about it. They want advice on how to let it go, and the advice is simple. No matter what you do, you’ll be wrong anyway. If you engage, you’re wrong and you’re stupid in their minds, and they intend to make sure you know that. If you don’t you have proven that they were right all along, and that you’re hiding from debating them and their superior knowledge. I get comments like this all the time:

Why do you delete comments that prove you wrong?

There’s no winning, so don’t bother with them in the first place.

Believe me, I have, and have the conversation logs to demonstrate to you that you are just swimming against a current or vitriolic arrogance:

User
Athena. How do you think psychopaths fake emotions?

Athena Walker
Observation and mimicry

User
Lol alright, and question as a child did you love your parents or feel fear?

User
Because children psychopaths are able to do that until they reach like age 13.

User
Then they cannot fear or love.

Athena Walker
That simply isn't true. Psychopaths will always lack the ability to process oxytocin and will always have the reduced emotions that will carry through their entire lives.

User
Again, I have a psychopathic friend who has diagnosed. He said its true and its the way the brain develops.

User
A child vs a adult. Thats why the brain has to finsh development at age 25 to get diagonsed.

User
My friend has to be the most crulest person I know yet such a honest person. I doubt he’d be lying.

User
He showed no empathy and all traits. A nightmare as a child but when he was younger he felt fear but was a little unresponsive to it. And he felt he loved his parents until a certain age.

User
So??

User

Wait I must know. Are you a psychopath or you just teach people about it?


Athena Walker
I am diagnosed with ASPD with primarily factor one traits. There is no such thing as a "diagnosed psychopath", as there is no diagnosis of psychopathy.

 What your friend says does not stack up to what neuroscientists say. It is simply not the way the brain works.

Athena Walker
The diagnosis that I have is the closest one can get to a "psychopathy" diagnosis.

User
Yes that’s what I mean ASPD traits

User
Or better off with aspd psychopathic traits not a real psychopath diagnosis

User
And you are? This is the first time I met a psychopath who didn’t charm the hell outta me

User
There’s a lot of false information out there. You sound more like a narcissist which is fine with me.. and it is. Age 25, wait until the brain is done developing! As a child it is different. Wait for the brain to finish for a reason.

User
I simply dont believe your a psychopath. You take what scientists say and claim it as correct information. Only a REAL psychopath can verify this fact.


Athena Walker
Very interesting that you think what you believe has any affect on reality. You do not know more than the doctors that diagnosed me, and you certainly do not know more than all of the scientific research studies that I have read that directly contradict what you state.

Mutated oxytocin receptors that are genetically coded do not shift when a person becomes a teenager. That is a ridiculous thing to claim. Just as it is ridiculous to claim that the amygdala, the area for processing fear is somehow capable of doing it until that age for inexplicable reasons. There is ample evidence to demonstrate what I have said, and zero to demonstrate what your friend has said. It goes against all neuroscience, and the understanding of brain development which there are plenty of studies with hard data to prove.

Believe them or not, that is not my concern, but "because I say so", or worse, "because my friend says so", does not an argument make.

User
We both know enough to argue with this.

User
Theres 2 reasons I believe your not one. 1 From the whole time i’ve spoken to you not at least once you have been charming. This is very much my first time meeting a psychopath who can’t charm me.

User
And you cant truly say so whats true, you only rely on your sources to say what traits you match.


Athena Walker
To be frank, no, I don't think that is the case. You haven't presented me with anything that is worth my time considering. You have said a friend of yours said X. That is not an argument to me. I don't care about your opinion, and since you have no facts to back yourself up, I have no interest in entertaining you.

User
For a psychopath your getting quite defensive Miss. Athena

User
Neither do you sound like a psychopath. Either way your interview you sound normal and a psychopath masked usually have a calm smooth voice as you sound like a straight up lady and a narcissist.

User
And I do, its a debunked myth.


Athena Walker
Nothing about what I said was defensive. You read into it what you feel it seems. I am done being polite to someone that can't make an argument, but insists that they are correct. Cease messaging me

User
Defensive= not rude. Just defending yourself :)

User
Again, no matter you said your not a psychopath your a narcissist. And a real psychopath wouldn’t even say that! They would just keep being nice. This is how they charm people

User
But it was nice talking to a narcissist. Maybe we share some traits.

Athena Walker
I have no interest in being nice to you, there is nothing in it for me. I have made my position clear;

Athena Walker's answer to How do psychopaths on Quora balance educating people vs. just blocking them if the comment arguments become too long? Some people will listen after being told they are wrong firmly, while others take offense.

and you have earned exactly that

Save your energy, and know that your time is more valuable than dealing with people like this.

I always think that fruitful discussions are great things. They make me think about things that I have never considered before, and sometimes the questions make me think about something that has never crossed my mind. Sometimes people have interesting information that I would not have heard otherwise, and sometimes, even after a long debate that I disagree with their position on, I look back later and can see that they were absolutely correct and I was very limited in my perspective.

This exact thing happened over on Quora, and I happened to save the entire debate so I could reread it at another time. I very much disagreed with their position, and thought their argument was a slippery slope argument that would never come to pass. I was totally wrong. So much so, that I am considering writing a post that addresses arguments that seem ridiculous, but in reality are conclusions based on evidence that should have been listened to. Let me know if that would interest you guys, but I have to warn you that the debate is sort of a hot-button topic, and I don’t want the comments section to descend into chaos. If I do put it up, keep in mind that it can inflame people, so try to be reasonable.

Learn what is worth giving yourself to. You don’t have a lot of time here, and I promise you there will not be a time that you wished that you argued harder and longer with a stranger that wasn’t listening to you in the first place.

Don’t be this guy: