I've watched NT's get this kind of super natural energy boost after doing genuinely nice things. I am absolutely shattered after doing such things. I have to recover.
The part about charisma reminds me of the sirens from the series Wednesday. They have to wear amulets to dampen their powers otherwise people will literally do and feel anything the sirens say. One of the sirens Bianca has issues believing if the feelings of other people are real because of it.
It's strange how here we are asking about how you could possibly want to mask certain psychopathic traits, only for you to remind us that these traits come with their own problems. The irony that the very traits that non-psychopaths envy and want for ourselves are also the traits that you have to cover up and hide.
Indeed. There are two sides to everything, and people assume because something is different, it must be better in some respect. Perhaps it is, but that doesn't mean that the drawbacks aren't significant enough to dampen the appeal if you are aware of them.
However much a psychopath tries to blend in, they will stand out simply because their brains are built differently. The lack of fear, less inhibitions, are all things most neurotypicals secretly covet. These qualities together create an aura that is almost otherworldly. Something that only psychopaths can embody to the fullest degree. Or perhaps a deeply religious person. A lot of them can work on themselves to have more of these qualities, or can fake having them,but ultimately no person with emotions can 100 % be uninhibited, true or fake. So when people are drawn towards you, it's not to your person, but to the qualities you are putting out.They think by being in your company, some of that can rub off on them.
All of this is felt by the subconscious mind, obviously, what spiritual teachers now are calling frequency. This is also why others can't understand their own attraction towards you. Most people lack the self awareness. That is why neurotypicals are run by their emotions, don't yu think?
Hello, I'm the person who made the comment. I thought about responding on quora, but I figured since the post is here i'll ask follow-ups here.
"Can I pretend to be deeply jealous?
Sure, I can, but I won’t."
Have you ever acted jealous? In what situation would (logically speaking) acting jealous be the optimal response? I assume that jealousy is never useful, therefore I can't see why you would've ever done it in your life. If you have, what situation caused you to react that way?
If you have never acted jealous before, how do you know that you can emulate it effectively? You mentioned emulating emotions is a learning curve, so that makes me think that you are unable to effectively emulate an emotion without having practiced it or done it before.
"Are there parts of my psychopathic traits that I let past the mask?
It depends on the circumstances. Most of the time there is no reason to."
The reason I asked this question was because I thought of two major reasons why letting things past the mask would be beneficial.
1. I assume that the more things you have to mask, the more annoying and exhausting masking is. So I assumed that if you don't have to mask something, you simply wouldn't do it.
2. Some of the traits of psychopathy are net positives (in my head). This made me assume that masking them in the first place would prove to be a detriment to your quality of life, whereas not having them masked would have no consequences.
Lets start with the first trait mentioned: Fear.
You mentioned "If I have to pretend to be afraid in the company of those that do not know, I will if it benefits me. I won’t if the opposite will benefit me. ". I suppose my main question to that is; when would it ever benefit you to act afraid? Like I mentioned earlier, I do not pretend to be scared in situations where people around me are, and never once has it been detrimental to me. The entire point of the mask is to avoid being seen in a negative light by neurotypicals, but fearlessness is not a thing I've ever seen a neurotypical look at in a negative light. Its through that thinking that I ask; what situations have you deemed acting afraid is a better idea than not acting afraid? Has there ever been a time where not acting afraid proved to be non-beneficial to you?
Secondly, there's mental toughness:
I don't define mental weakness the way you do, which seems to just be acting stupid, but to me they're pretty much the same as coolness under pressure, so I'll just group them together.
Coolness under pressure:
Okay, I can understand now how that would be useful. If someone in a restaurant needs CPR and you don't want to do it, panicking and acting like you are too emotionally overwhelmed to do anything is an easy way to encourage someone else who is better suited for the job to do it instead.
Charisma:
I have no idea what you're talking about under that section, perhaps because I have never seen or experienced this first hand. I have moderate charisma, so anyone who talks to me will usually like me, but I have never seen, or ever personally experienced, charisma to the level you are talking about. I cannot imagine ever looking at someone walk into a room and being so unbelievably encumbered by....? What exactly? The way they're walking? Their facial expression? To the point where I will start following and drooling like some mindless zombie. Even in places where charisma is very important and beneficial, like being a content creator or a celebrity, I have never seen charisma that even approaches this aura of uncontrollable attraction that will break the necks of every neurotypical within eyeshot. What about you when you are masking your charisma are you changing, exactly? What things are you changing that will turn you from some being that radiates attraction from their mere presence to just some regular person? I'm confused about what parts about the way you walk and the facial expression you have on makes such a gargantuan difference.
I have no idea what it is that they are so drawn to, but it has been an issue for me pretty much my entire life. People are just weirdly drawn to me, they like me without knowing me, and they want to be around me because of some internal desire. I would say you would have to ask them what the deal is, but I have had people tell me that they can't explain why they are following me around or want to be in my presence.
J.L.W explained very well the necessity of the appearance of fear. I really cannot elaborate more on it.
That confuses me even more. If you don't know what about you creates this aire of charisma that causes people to follow you around and stare at you, how can you mask it? I assume that in order to mask a psychopathic trait it would require you to deeply understand it, where its coming from, how its presented, and what things you need to do in order to mask it. If you don't know what about you creates that charisma, how do you mask it?
Also, I would love to learn more about psychopath charisma in general. What about it sets it apart from average charisma, why it works, and research on how effective it is. Do you know of any people, places, or resources I can go to to learn more?
Perhaps the reason you don't have to masquerade fear is that you are a guy. There is not a lot of empathic and emotional behaviour that guys HAVE to show except deference to women, perhaps a certain fear around muscular guys; and loyalty to authority. Even this last one, in the modern political age after lockdown and masks, may not even be required any longer.
No one is going to think it unusual if someone nearly drowns and a guy isn't jumping around and crying like a 14 year ol girl. In practice most guys would be a bit messed up I think. But in theory it should be fine if they are not. The theory, the kind of theory NT's get from shows like FRIENDS, is fine most of the time.
The supernatural charisma is an interesting phenomena. Again, we don't know what Athena looks like she might be very physically attractive and this might be part of it. I had a manager that was a bit like this, people randomly started clinging to her. She looked a bit like a mermaid, like a sea creature exiled into the muddy earth with the rest of us; and she was generally pleasingly feminine. Emotional, Evasive etc.
I wonder if James Fallon gets this same effect?
Also, NT's I think, spend a lot of their lives avoiding basic truths within themselves out of fear. Of using their emotions as barometers of what to say and what not to say. Having this feeling, that if they say the wrong word the person they are talking to will explode in a terrible array of offense. If they meet someone they don't have to do that with. If they meet someone that when they say something that is what they consider a bit offensive (but is true!) they are just met with a blank and non confrontational stare. Perhaps their own mask, which is moderated by their emotional empathy, just collapses and all that they have been holding seeps forth.
That makes sense. As a man, fearlessness is somewhat expected, so perhaps that's why I never have to pretend to be scared when I'm not. However I would doubt that the reaction to a woman doing the same thing would cause a negative reaction severe enough to warrant going through the annoying ordeal of faking it. Even in situations where women aren't afraid, the worst I've seen are perhaps comments on it, but never any aggression or anger, so I'm curious what the motivation to mask it is.
The charisma part I think is certainly more interesting and confusing for me. If Athena was simply a super model in terms of attractiveness, I doubt she would be able to switch her charisma on and off to where she wouldn't have to deal with constantly being stared at and followed, since its not like she can change her facial attractiveness. I also doubt she would say psychopathy is the reason for those situations, since I assume that if she was extremely attractive, she would be aware of it.
I understand why psychopaths are easy to open up to, since they simply do not care enough about your problems to judge you on them, so they are some of the least judgmental people ever. This makes it easy to open up to them. I understand this perfectly fine, but I do not understand the hyper focus, staring, following, and crazy stalking that comes from simply looking at a psychopath sitting around doing nothing. No words are exchanged in this situation, its simply glancing over at someone and immediately being inexplicably obsessed with them for some reason. That part of charisma is something I do not understand at all, and since its a psychopathic trait, it should be present in all psychopaths, including ones that are quite ugly. That confuses me even more.
Something that I have heard from researchers that have spent time with psychopaths, the charisma is present regardless of their appearance. I would say that it's something about the energy we put off, and that can be curbed to be less noticeable to others. Perhaps I can explain it some in a post, I will see if I can voice it accurately.
I think a point that some would find interesting is the difference between psychopathy and autism, psychopathy and... perhaps schizoid. Psychopathy and x. I think people are looking for self knowledge and regardless of how wise or not it is, they want a bit more of an answer to why they are the way they are. Especially if they are neurodivergent.
It may not be an area you want to delve into, or that you would be able to delve into without getting advice on it, but I just thought I would highlight it.
I don't think they are. Partly from conversations Athena has had with declared autists in this comment section. Both look at neurotypicals rather like one would a car at times. Figuring out how it works from an outside perspective.
The thing is with autism though is that because it is such an oft repeated mantra in the autism communities that "everyones autism is different", "you might not have all the traits". It seems to me the diagnosis term of autism is carte blanche to describe neurodivergence in general.
If we take five autistic behaviours: Lack of emotional empathy, stimming, autistic tantrums, routines and special interests. Someone could be psychopathic and claim they are autistic and simply eliminate any on this list they don't have. Some they might apply to the term autism but might just be their own personality. Like routines or special interests. Because "All autism is different".
I definitely think autism is a real thing and that there are people that are clearly autistic. I have a friend of a friend who has so many traits. In so many ways work colleagues using that term for the individual has helped and if you look at a youtube video channel like 'I'm Autistic Now what?' You can see from how she speaks and the videos of how she moved when she as a child that it is a real thing.
But, it would be logical that some are using the term autism for whatever other reason and that the autistic community is strategically making sure there are no 'barriers of entry' to the diagnosis. Such as a narcissist who can market his "narcissistic rage" as an "autistic tantrum".
This all makes the distinction between the terms pretty difficult.
Ah. that might explain a lot. The concept of "energy" is never something I ever understood in the first place, so if that's where it's coming from it'd make sense that its such a foreign concept to me. I'm often confused by people who are able to 'tell' the energy or vibe of another person, but that is completely lost on me. I just see how people act and form my opinions that way. I might not be an observant enough person to have the ability to pick up a vibe or energy from those around me.
I would wager that being female is not an insignificant part of the charisma. You don't have to be particularly good-looking as a woman to attract unwanted attention. In general people find women more approachable, so it takes a pretty minimal appearance of listening to hear a life story or three. That's without any particular charisma, and even (in my case) some amount of avoiding eye contact to avoid it.
So I imagine it could definitely go to extreme levels with the added confidence, lack of emotional baggage, youthful appearance, and other charismatic qualities of a psychopath.
I'm pretty sure some people are out there looking for someone to pay attention to them, to "give them the time of day" so to speak, and then if you give them attention (even if it was just supposed to be polite/brief), they go all in.
I wanted to rewrite the answer I previously had here for purely personal reasons. I was off balance at this time but did not know it. I make it a point to not post when I am off balance (medically) but did not know this when I posted.
In my perception. The female social heirarchy is pretty terrifying and women are often kind of graded harshly by other women and the primary means of attack is how ethical such and such a woman is. Also, individually you might get women that are honourable etc. But when in groups the better ones will have to yield to this pressure and I see groups of women as unethical by default. :- this madness is what a stable relationship can let women escape from.
Perhaps that's just my experience but I am sticking with it.
The second paragraph I don't quite agree on. I do think attractiveness is possibly an element. It may not be but women innately signal their capacity to be caring and to be mothers. That is their biology. I don't expect Athena would identify this if this were the case. Do you really see guys suddenly stalking an ugly woman?
The third paragraph. This is something I don't know. Even though I am not a psychopath I am a but "neurodivergent" in some manner and I believe lacking emotional empathy at this specific time. That is something I picked up from how I deal with people. About people being afraid of offending others and being profusely positive when they find out the other person isn't getting offended. But it was just a theory perhaps I overstepped my mark there.
There are plenty of other things it could be such as people just responding well to the psychopaths calm. Triggering them to attempt to place all their neurosis there.
I thought your first answer was fine, but i'll respond to the updated one.
If the female hierarchy is as you're describing, then I can understand why fear would be something that's masked, and I would also understand why personally I just never dealt with that problem. When females around me are similarly fearless, I do not care since that's normal to me. However I can see how female on female interaction might look very different, and since I'm not a female that would be a world I'm totally lost on.
I think Athena is pretty neutral and observant when it comes to her perception. If she was absurdly attractive, I'd be surprised if she didn't know this. She cites psychopathy alone as the reason why her charisma is so strong, and I can only assume she would know best in that case. Not only that, but even with people who are super attractive, I've never experienced or seen the charisma that was described in the answer. I've only ever seen that with well known celebrities. I don't see guys stalking an ugly woman. That is what makes psychopathy's superhuman charisma so confusing to me.
Emotional empathy explains why psychopaths are easy to talk to, but doesn't explain the magnetic-like attraction when you're not talking to them. The calmness and easy-goingness might provide some explanation, but plenty of people are calm and easygoing. Hell, I'm calm and easygoing 90% of the time and I still haven't seen that crazy magnetic-like attraction before. There is apparently some secret sauce in the way psycopaths present themselves that allow them to increase their charisma 20 fold, and I'm curious about what that secret sauce is.
To be clear, no it isn't that alone, but it is a significant aspect as this is something that works when people cannot see me. They simply feel drawn to me and want to spend time with me, even though they have no idea what I look like.
OK, I like that in your communication you seem to be open in general, and lacking in a general tendency to only want to enforce your own viewpoint. So I will continue chatting whereby, quite often by this point I would head off because the other person would have gotten closed off and slightly heated in a discussion this long.
I was pleased you were fine with my earlier response. I took it down to look at the effect that the medical situation had on me subconsciously. It seemed to go for the jugular a little bit. But was more to the point than my second response. My second response is going to be more in the line of the mask as it forms.
"If the female heirarchy is as you are describing". I am a little bit lost for words here to be honest. While I have seen insensitivity in men in general. The non acknowledgement of this part of female experience and nature is a little strange to me. I mean, I have a little sister and have listened to her tirades in this area. Have worked in female heavy bullying offices. I have talked previously about another female friend I was close with. Numerous other examples. It seems strange that the ongoing subtle power games they play are not known about in general. Moreso when younger, and before they have kids (and come out of themselves a whole lot!). But always there a little. In any age an apology for something said is a really big deal - a bigger deal if not given tbh. Apologies in most cases, in my understanding, are just statements of emotional animal dominance between neurotypicals. I have found, apologising for some slight can often be a good tool to paralyse someone from being able to move against you.
I am about to make the kind of point that sounds like one a neurotypical would make when cornered. Trying to separate from the factual reality of the argument they have lost and attempting to bring in subjectivity and whine in an attempt to save face.
But from my perspective. While your points here are "on point". You are phrasing the language, and description of this all as containing a rigidity that is not true of life. The reason Athena has these issues, and psychopaths do in general if they do will be a mix of issues. It will be the organic combination of how they work together. It will not be something that can be specifically studied like a maths equation.
So, with the attractiveness angle. This is what her boyfriend has to say. Of course this will not be accurate necessarily (all men have to necessarily be more positive in some of their retelling of their relationship) but it will not likely be so inaccurate that the truth is the actual opposite. This would likely put Athena at slightly above average, to highly above average in attractiveness:
So the combination will be something like: Relatively attractive, unafraid of sexual advances (effects say 15% of the stalkers), super calm and makes people feel understood (effects say 20% of female stalkers). People feel that she is super objective. (effects x amount of people positively) and so on and so on.
Then with James Fallon, if he also had this same effect it would be: Excitement and directness creates charm, (point 1 of 7). Etc.
I appreciate the perspective. I have no women other than my mother in my family, and since I am a little neurodivergent myself, the women I grew up with never had a need to pretend to be anyone they're not when around me from very early on, since I usually just took people for who they were. That might explain how I have no personal experience with that part of the female experience, since nobody really told me about it and I've never seen it first hand. I don't doubt it exists of course, but its something that would have to be explained to me in order for me to fully understand, which is why I appreciate that you took the time to do that. Its just not something I'm very familiar with.
I also am catching onto what you're saying in the second part. Charisma is a complicated concept. It cannot be defined and displayed exclusively through body language and actions. The clothes one wears, their physical appearance, where they live, and other factors are heavily influential to someone's charisma, and I indeed have completely ignored those aspects in order to focus on the psychopathy part. It might be true that the majority of her charisma comes from factors outside of psychopathy, and it is only made worse when her psychopathy is left unchecked. However that's not the impression I got from the answer, which is why I didn't bring it up. I would be very curious to see if other psychopaths also share the same struggle Athena does when it comes to their charisma, since being a very attractive woman already puts you at a charisma level well above your average person.
I actually think making a separate quora answer or substack about charisma would be very interesting, because while I can logically understand most of why psychopaths think and act the way they do from reading your answers and other things, the charisma aspect was never something that I understood at all.
I've seen interviews with unmasked psychopaths, including your interview where you claimed to have a significantly reduced mask, and while some of them I found likeable and other ones I found not-so-likeable, I've never seen the charisma that you are talking about from them. I would love to understand in more detail what specific things about the way you present yourself (without talking) exudes the charisma you mention. How does that even work? How does charisma for a psychopath work?
It simply who we are, and how we are. I have made it a point to mask charisma in interviews because I have no interest in anyone trying to track me down. I already have enough of that noise in my life. Perhaps I will write about it, but frankly, many of the circumstances that this has caused are unbelievable to many people. Even people who were there have told me that they wouldn't have believed it if they hadn't seen it for themselves.
I feel like a logical explanation on how you mask charisma would be really interesting to read about. For example, you say you mask it in interviews. How is this done? What do you change? Tone of voice? Volume? Do you reduce the amount of jokes you make? What things are fine-tuned in the way you speak on an interview that causes your charisma to be successfully masked? What do you avoid? I can totally understand how you mask other things like sadness and fear, because I can see that happen in the real world. However I do not understand how charisma is masked. What is the logic behind it?
I will try to explain it after thinking it over for a bit. It's kind of like breathing, you don't really think about the mechanics of it, you simply do it because you have to, and it is something you instinctually do.
You might not be neurotypical though, you don't seem to me to be neurotypical. Right out the gate I would say your IQ is higher than the 100 average. You may not be open to the charm of the psychopath.
I can't label your specific issue. But I can define you as other than neurotypical from my perspective.
Yesterday while I was attempting to close shop the last client of the day was a woman who began talking to me as I went to lock up as she was leaving. She did an entire dump on me because her husband is out of state, her father is in the hospital, she's stressed. She started making a lot of eye contact and apparently was actually getting confused about what exactly it was that she was doing. I keep expecting to see her come back by today which will be awkward
Thank you for another post. I could never imagine your carisma would affect insects... and about stalkers: do they bother you too much? How do you deal with them? Are they harmless besides being annoying?
I can relate for "charisma" part. I don't have pretty face, i have tomboy image like a gangster 😂. So i think "charisma" it's not about image but it's like vibe/energy thingy. I agree that "charisma" makes people who have it, look "stand out" wherever they go, even though they are just chilling at their own peace. Easy to attract attention. In my case people often acts respectful, friendly and helpful to me. Sometimes random people helps me even i don't asks for it.
It's my question for my whole life. Why people like to tell their life stories to me, since i was young? Stranger, friends, family, neighbors, even in GAME (that they couldn't see my face!). Even though sometimes it's fun to hear other's stories, but at the same time it's drain my energy so much as well. It's like burden, the more i follow it.
A friend once told me that i have a vibe like an ideal parent, that's why people like to tell their stories. Who will silent and listen very well with patience, without much assumptions and judgment, i listen well even the painful one (not many people able to endure the painful stories without affected by it). I give them enough attentions.
I often tests and observes my friends, when they will stop talking about "me, mine, myself, i?". Jump here and there with their stories. They able to talk in days with less sleep!!! LOL. If I'm not take decision to end the conversation they will still continue without stop. So i have conclusion the more attentions they get, it will excites them. Boost their emotional positive state, it gives them energy.
I used to think people need to throw their emotional garbage to regulate their emotional system but i don't think it's fully true. They still tell the same stories repeated again and again, no matter how much they tell the stories and no matter how many people heard their stories. IT'S NEVER GET ENOUGH. And they always have problems and stories to tell.
But yeah conversation is a great tool to get ATTENTIONS...
Later I just realize they see me as a source of their emotional positive supply. They often miss me, not because of me as a person. But they need a booster to their emotional state. LOL. It's like they addicted to the hormon that will relieves when they are talking and get the attention from me. The excitement, connection, comforts and positive feelings and emotions. (No wonder you got stalkers) They become clingy.
Sometimes i just think it's a form of controlling too, directing the conversation into their own SELF. When we are "listening" is like we are in submissive position (we give our energy into the form of attention) and "talking" is like in domineering position (they take the energy). That's why I often observes people who listen drain their energy faster, and people who talk get more energy and excitement.
Maybe they controlling and directing the conversation, to get the attentions, sense of control, sense of power over others, to feel superior? Or the attentions able to satisfied their "need of connection" "need to be heard" "need to be understood" too? To feel they are worthy, significant, important enough to get attention? (Maybe...) Well it's just my assumptions for sure, i think the reason might be different for each person. 😂
I assume these people able to sense the "charismatic" person as their supply of their needs and wants LOL.
What do you do when people out of nowhere download their probs on you? Do you reassure them that everything will be alright? Or do you just give them a listening ear?
Yes, certainly. For instance, two psychopaths can, and likely will, have a neurotypical child. Psychopathy does not have a clear line of inheritance. It is much more random than that.
Good, I am not a psychopath then, on this description. It was always a stupid idea. When I was about 6 years old I used to go around my granny's. Who pretended she could not read the radio times properly and let me watch 18 certificate horror movies.
In the frightening bits I would run behind the sofa and she would just see two little eyes poking out from behind it.
Now that my health has improved though, now that I am able to, I will most likely have to be constructing a mask nonetheless.
Of all those mentioned, the one that is the hardest for me to mask is the long term care. I have to take the extra step to show the people that I care about them, especially my boyfriend. On autopilot I'll prioritize myself, their well being won't even cross my mind. I always have to take a step back and see how I can show that I care, that I want them around. I've lost many "friends" who claimed that I don't care enough about them (just because I'm not one to always initiate conversation or go after them. Silly, I know).
I think I'm always repeating that in every comment, but it's because its genuine. All I do is not meant to cause any harm but they're always expecting me to act in a way that without a mask, I can't do it intuitively. Therefore, they always get disappointed in me. Oh well.. haha
Yes, I am very much the same way. It is something that requires constant awareness.
As for the lack of initiation of conversation or going after them, I don't know if you have tried this, but being very straight forward about this not being something in your nature and to not expect it can have benefits.
Yep, I can try that! Thank you for the tip. The ones I know for a long time know how I function so they don't really care bout it anymore haha, but it can be quite effective for the ones I am meeting for the first time (not that I am interested new people unless it's highly necessary)
I am the opposite to you two here. My ideal is to contact people whenever I want and I don't get at all upset if people don't contact me back frequently. I have had problems in the past with continuing to contact people after they have tried to subtly end it so of the friends I do have, if they make clear they are not being intentionally evasive I will be fine to simply contact them when I want to.
Yep, I understand! I have a friend who told me once that it's completely fine to reply whenever I could or felt like to. She's always sending me some random messages about random situations that happened in her day. I find it amusing! And I do respect her for understanding my side
🤣🤣🤣. That was quite hilarious, except for the part where creepy people follow you, and unfortunately I understand.
Screw the mask, i’m tired of it. It consumes too much energy that I don’t have anymore.
Being [myself] “beyond weird” to non-psychopaths is it’s own adrenaline rush.
I've watched NT's get this kind of super natural energy boost after doing genuinely nice things. I am absolutely shattered after doing such things. I have to recover.
It’s quite annoying most of the time. I’m exhausted 🥱😑🙄
The part about charisma reminds me of the sirens from the series Wednesday. They have to wear amulets to dampen their powers otherwise people will literally do and feel anything the sirens say. One of the sirens Bianca has issues believing if the feelings of other people are real because of it.
It's strange how here we are asking about how you could possibly want to mask certain psychopathic traits, only for you to remind us that these traits come with their own problems. The irony that the very traits that non-psychopaths envy and want for ourselves are also the traits that you have to cover up and hide.
Indeed. There are two sides to everything, and people assume because something is different, it must be better in some respect. Perhaps it is, but that doesn't mean that the drawbacks aren't significant enough to dampen the appeal if you are aware of them.
However much a psychopath tries to blend in, they will stand out simply because their brains are built differently. The lack of fear, less inhibitions, are all things most neurotypicals secretly covet. These qualities together create an aura that is almost otherworldly. Something that only psychopaths can embody to the fullest degree. Or perhaps a deeply religious person. A lot of them can work on themselves to have more of these qualities, or can fake having them,but ultimately no person with emotions can 100 % be uninhibited, true or fake. So when people are drawn towards you, it's not to your person, but to the qualities you are putting out.They think by being in your company, some of that can rub off on them.
All of this is felt by the subconscious mind, obviously, what spiritual teachers now are calling frequency. This is also why others can't understand their own attraction towards you. Most people lack the self awareness. That is why neurotypicals are run by their emotions, don't yu think?
I think that this is an excellent theory as to why this happens, yes
Thank you
Hello, I'm the person who made the comment. I thought about responding on quora, but I figured since the post is here i'll ask follow-ups here.
"Can I pretend to be deeply jealous?
Sure, I can, but I won’t."
Have you ever acted jealous? In what situation would (logically speaking) acting jealous be the optimal response? I assume that jealousy is never useful, therefore I can't see why you would've ever done it in your life. If you have, what situation caused you to react that way?
If you have never acted jealous before, how do you know that you can emulate it effectively? You mentioned emulating emotions is a learning curve, so that makes me think that you are unable to effectively emulate an emotion without having practiced it or done it before.
"Are there parts of my psychopathic traits that I let past the mask?
It depends on the circumstances. Most of the time there is no reason to."
The reason I asked this question was because I thought of two major reasons why letting things past the mask would be beneficial.
1. I assume that the more things you have to mask, the more annoying and exhausting masking is. So I assumed that if you don't have to mask something, you simply wouldn't do it.
2. Some of the traits of psychopathy are net positives (in my head). This made me assume that masking them in the first place would prove to be a detriment to your quality of life, whereas not having them masked would have no consequences.
Lets start with the first trait mentioned: Fear.
You mentioned "If I have to pretend to be afraid in the company of those that do not know, I will if it benefits me. I won’t if the opposite will benefit me. ". I suppose my main question to that is; when would it ever benefit you to act afraid? Like I mentioned earlier, I do not pretend to be scared in situations where people around me are, and never once has it been detrimental to me. The entire point of the mask is to avoid being seen in a negative light by neurotypicals, but fearlessness is not a thing I've ever seen a neurotypical look at in a negative light. Its through that thinking that I ask; what situations have you deemed acting afraid is a better idea than not acting afraid? Has there ever been a time where not acting afraid proved to be non-beneficial to you?
Secondly, there's mental toughness:
I don't define mental weakness the way you do, which seems to just be acting stupid, but to me they're pretty much the same as coolness under pressure, so I'll just group them together.
Coolness under pressure:
Okay, I can understand now how that would be useful. If someone in a restaurant needs CPR and you don't want to do it, panicking and acting like you are too emotionally overwhelmed to do anything is an easy way to encourage someone else who is better suited for the job to do it instead.
Charisma:
I have no idea what you're talking about under that section, perhaps because I have never seen or experienced this first hand. I have moderate charisma, so anyone who talks to me will usually like me, but I have never seen, or ever personally experienced, charisma to the level you are talking about. I cannot imagine ever looking at someone walk into a room and being so unbelievably encumbered by....? What exactly? The way they're walking? Their facial expression? To the point where I will start following and drooling like some mindless zombie. Even in places where charisma is very important and beneficial, like being a content creator or a celebrity, I have never seen charisma that even approaches this aura of uncontrollable attraction that will break the necks of every neurotypical within eyeshot. What about you when you are masking your charisma are you changing, exactly? What things are you changing that will turn you from some being that radiates attraction from their mere presence to just some regular person? I'm confused about what parts about the way you walk and the facial expression you have on makes such a gargantuan difference.
I have no idea what it is that they are so drawn to, but it has been an issue for me pretty much my entire life. People are just weirdly drawn to me, they like me without knowing me, and they want to be around me because of some internal desire. I would say you would have to ask them what the deal is, but I have had people tell me that they can't explain why they are following me around or want to be in my presence.
J.L.W explained very well the necessity of the appearance of fear. I really cannot elaborate more on it.
That confuses me even more. If you don't know what about you creates this aire of charisma that causes people to follow you around and stare at you, how can you mask it? I assume that in order to mask a psychopathic trait it would require you to deeply understand it, where its coming from, how its presented, and what things you need to do in order to mask it. If you don't know what about you creates that charisma, how do you mask it?
Also, I would love to learn more about psychopath charisma in general. What about it sets it apart from average charisma, why it works, and research on how effective it is. Do you know of any people, places, or resources I can go to to learn more?
Just some thoughts.
Perhaps the reason you don't have to masquerade fear is that you are a guy. There is not a lot of empathic and emotional behaviour that guys HAVE to show except deference to women, perhaps a certain fear around muscular guys; and loyalty to authority. Even this last one, in the modern political age after lockdown and masks, may not even be required any longer.
No one is going to think it unusual if someone nearly drowns and a guy isn't jumping around and crying like a 14 year ol girl. In practice most guys would be a bit messed up I think. But in theory it should be fine if they are not. The theory, the kind of theory NT's get from shows like FRIENDS, is fine most of the time.
The supernatural charisma is an interesting phenomena. Again, we don't know what Athena looks like she might be very physically attractive and this might be part of it. I had a manager that was a bit like this, people randomly started clinging to her. She looked a bit like a mermaid, like a sea creature exiled into the muddy earth with the rest of us; and she was generally pleasingly feminine. Emotional, Evasive etc.
I wonder if James Fallon gets this same effect?
Also, NT's I think, spend a lot of their lives avoiding basic truths within themselves out of fear. Of using their emotions as barometers of what to say and what not to say. Having this feeling, that if they say the wrong word the person they are talking to will explode in a terrible array of offense. If they meet someone they don't have to do that with. If they meet someone that when they say something that is what they consider a bit offensive (but is true!) they are just met with a blank and non confrontational stare. Perhaps their own mask, which is moderated by their emotional empathy, just collapses and all that they have been holding seeps forth.
Well said
That makes sense. As a man, fearlessness is somewhat expected, so perhaps that's why I never have to pretend to be scared when I'm not. However I would doubt that the reaction to a woman doing the same thing would cause a negative reaction severe enough to warrant going through the annoying ordeal of faking it. Even in situations where women aren't afraid, the worst I've seen are perhaps comments on it, but never any aggression or anger, so I'm curious what the motivation to mask it is.
The charisma part I think is certainly more interesting and confusing for me. If Athena was simply a super model in terms of attractiveness, I doubt she would be able to switch her charisma on and off to where she wouldn't have to deal with constantly being stared at and followed, since its not like she can change her facial attractiveness. I also doubt she would say psychopathy is the reason for those situations, since I assume that if she was extremely attractive, she would be aware of it.
I understand why psychopaths are easy to open up to, since they simply do not care enough about your problems to judge you on them, so they are some of the least judgmental people ever. This makes it easy to open up to them. I understand this perfectly fine, but I do not understand the hyper focus, staring, following, and crazy stalking that comes from simply looking at a psychopath sitting around doing nothing. No words are exchanged in this situation, its simply glancing over at someone and immediately being inexplicably obsessed with them for some reason. That part of charisma is something I do not understand at all, and since its a psychopathic trait, it should be present in all psychopaths, including ones that are quite ugly. That confuses me even more.
Something that I have heard from researchers that have spent time with psychopaths, the charisma is present regardless of their appearance. I would say that it's something about the energy we put off, and that can be curbed to be less noticeable to others. Perhaps I can explain it some in a post, I will see if I can voice it accurately.
I think a point that some would find interesting is the difference between psychopathy and autism, psychopathy and... perhaps schizoid. Psychopathy and x. I think people are looking for self knowledge and regardless of how wise or not it is, they want a bit more of an answer to why they are the way they are. Especially if they are neurodivergent.
It may not be an area you want to delve into, or that you would be able to delve into without getting advice on it, but I just thought I would highlight it.
Psychopathy vs autism is an interesting one to study, as they seem to be opposites.
I don't think they are. Partly from conversations Athena has had with declared autists in this comment section. Both look at neurotypicals rather like one would a car at times. Figuring out how it works from an outside perspective.
The thing is with autism though is that because it is such an oft repeated mantra in the autism communities that "everyones autism is different", "you might not have all the traits". It seems to me the diagnosis term of autism is carte blanche to describe neurodivergence in general.
If we take five autistic behaviours: Lack of emotional empathy, stimming, autistic tantrums, routines and special interests. Someone could be psychopathic and claim they are autistic and simply eliminate any on this list they don't have. Some they might apply to the term autism but might just be their own personality. Like routines or special interests. Because "All autism is different".
I definitely think autism is a real thing and that there are people that are clearly autistic. I have a friend of a friend who has so many traits. In so many ways work colleagues using that term for the individual has helped and if you look at a youtube video channel like 'I'm Autistic Now what?' You can see from how she speaks and the videos of how she moved when she as a child that it is a real thing.
But, it would be logical that some are using the term autism for whatever other reason and that the autistic community is strategically making sure there are no 'barriers of entry' to the diagnosis. Such as a narcissist who can market his "narcissistic rage" as an "autistic tantrum".
This all makes the distinction between the terms pretty difficult.
Ah. that might explain a lot. The concept of "energy" is never something I ever understood in the first place, so if that's where it's coming from it'd make sense that its such a foreign concept to me. I'm often confused by people who are able to 'tell' the energy or vibe of another person, but that is completely lost on me. I just see how people act and form my opinions that way. I might not be an observant enough person to have the ability to pick up a vibe or energy from those around me.
I would wager that being female is not an insignificant part of the charisma. You don't have to be particularly good-looking as a woman to attract unwanted attention. In general people find women more approachable, so it takes a pretty minimal appearance of listening to hear a life story or three. That's without any particular charisma, and even (in my case) some amount of avoiding eye contact to avoid it.
So I imagine it could definitely go to extreme levels with the added confidence, lack of emotional baggage, youthful appearance, and other charismatic qualities of a psychopath.
I'm pretty sure some people are out there looking for someone to pay attention to them, to "give them the time of day" so to speak, and then if you give them attention (even if it was just supposed to be polite/brief), they go all in.
I wanted to rewrite the answer I previously had here for purely personal reasons. I was off balance at this time but did not know it. I make it a point to not post when I am off balance (medically) but did not know this when I posted.
In my perception. The female social heirarchy is pretty terrifying and women are often kind of graded harshly by other women and the primary means of attack is how ethical such and such a woman is. Also, individually you might get women that are honourable etc. But when in groups the better ones will have to yield to this pressure and I see groups of women as unethical by default. :- this madness is what a stable relationship can let women escape from.
Perhaps that's just my experience but I am sticking with it.
The second paragraph I don't quite agree on. I do think attractiveness is possibly an element. It may not be but women innately signal their capacity to be caring and to be mothers. That is their biology. I don't expect Athena would identify this if this were the case. Do you really see guys suddenly stalking an ugly woman?
The third paragraph. This is something I don't know. Even though I am not a psychopath I am a but "neurodivergent" in some manner and I believe lacking emotional empathy at this specific time. That is something I picked up from how I deal with people. About people being afraid of offending others and being profusely positive when they find out the other person isn't getting offended. But it was just a theory perhaps I overstepped my mark there.
There are plenty of other things it could be such as people just responding well to the psychopaths calm. Triggering them to attempt to place all their neurosis there.
I thought your first answer was fine, but i'll respond to the updated one.
If the female hierarchy is as you're describing, then I can understand why fear would be something that's masked, and I would also understand why personally I just never dealt with that problem. When females around me are similarly fearless, I do not care since that's normal to me. However I can see how female on female interaction might look very different, and since I'm not a female that would be a world I'm totally lost on.
I think Athena is pretty neutral and observant when it comes to her perception. If she was absurdly attractive, I'd be surprised if she didn't know this. She cites psychopathy alone as the reason why her charisma is so strong, and I can only assume she would know best in that case. Not only that, but even with people who are super attractive, I've never experienced or seen the charisma that was described in the answer. I've only ever seen that with well known celebrities. I don't see guys stalking an ugly woman. That is what makes psychopathy's superhuman charisma so confusing to me.
Emotional empathy explains why psychopaths are easy to talk to, but doesn't explain the magnetic-like attraction when you're not talking to them. The calmness and easy-goingness might provide some explanation, but plenty of people are calm and easygoing. Hell, I'm calm and easygoing 90% of the time and I still haven't seen that crazy magnetic-like attraction before. There is apparently some secret sauce in the way psycopaths present themselves that allow them to increase their charisma 20 fold, and I'm curious about what that secret sauce is.
To be clear, no it isn't that alone, but it is a significant aspect as this is something that works when people cannot see me. They simply feel drawn to me and want to spend time with me, even though they have no idea what I look like.
OK, I like that in your communication you seem to be open in general, and lacking in a general tendency to only want to enforce your own viewpoint. So I will continue chatting whereby, quite often by this point I would head off because the other person would have gotten closed off and slightly heated in a discussion this long.
I was pleased you were fine with my earlier response. I took it down to look at the effect that the medical situation had on me subconsciously. It seemed to go for the jugular a little bit. But was more to the point than my second response. My second response is going to be more in the line of the mask as it forms.
"If the female heirarchy is as you are describing". I am a little bit lost for words here to be honest. While I have seen insensitivity in men in general. The non acknowledgement of this part of female experience and nature is a little strange to me. I mean, I have a little sister and have listened to her tirades in this area. Have worked in female heavy bullying offices. I have talked previously about another female friend I was close with. Numerous other examples. It seems strange that the ongoing subtle power games they play are not known about in general. Moreso when younger, and before they have kids (and come out of themselves a whole lot!). But always there a little. In any age an apology for something said is a really big deal - a bigger deal if not given tbh. Apologies in most cases, in my understanding, are just statements of emotional animal dominance between neurotypicals. I have found, apologising for some slight can often be a good tool to paralyse someone from being able to move against you.
I am about to make the kind of point that sounds like one a neurotypical would make when cornered. Trying to separate from the factual reality of the argument they have lost and attempting to bring in subjectivity and whine in an attempt to save face.
But from my perspective. While your points here are "on point". You are phrasing the language, and description of this all as containing a rigidity that is not true of life. The reason Athena has these issues, and psychopaths do in general if they do will be a mix of issues. It will be the organic combination of how they work together. It will not be something that can be specifically studied like a maths equation.
So, with the attractiveness angle. This is what her boyfriend has to say. Of course this will not be accurate necessarily (all men have to necessarily be more positive in some of their retelling of their relationship) but it will not likely be so inaccurate that the truth is the actual opposite. This would likely put Athena at slightly above average, to highly above average in attractiveness:
"She was striking. She was a beautiful woman." Question 2: https://www.thecut.com/2018/09/what-its-like-dating-a-psychopath.html
So the combination will be something like: Relatively attractive, unafraid of sexual advances (effects say 15% of the stalkers), super calm and makes people feel understood (effects say 20% of female stalkers). People feel that she is super objective. (effects x amount of people positively) and so on and so on.
Then with James Fallon, if he also had this same effect it would be: Excitement and directness creates charm, (point 1 of 7). Etc.
I hope the post made sense and was of value.
I appreciate the perspective. I have no women other than my mother in my family, and since I am a little neurodivergent myself, the women I grew up with never had a need to pretend to be anyone they're not when around me from very early on, since I usually just took people for who they were. That might explain how I have no personal experience with that part of the female experience, since nobody really told me about it and I've never seen it first hand. I don't doubt it exists of course, but its something that would have to be explained to me in order for me to fully understand, which is why I appreciate that you took the time to do that. Its just not something I'm very familiar with.
I also am catching onto what you're saying in the second part. Charisma is a complicated concept. It cannot be defined and displayed exclusively through body language and actions. The clothes one wears, their physical appearance, where they live, and other factors are heavily influential to someone's charisma, and I indeed have completely ignored those aspects in order to focus on the psychopathy part. It might be true that the majority of her charisma comes from factors outside of psychopathy, and it is only made worse when her psychopathy is left unchecked. However that's not the impression I got from the answer, which is why I didn't bring it up. I would be very curious to see if other psychopaths also share the same struggle Athena does when it comes to their charisma, since being a very attractive woman already puts you at a charisma level well above your average person.
I actually think making a separate quora answer or substack about charisma would be very interesting, because while I can logically understand most of why psychopaths think and act the way they do from reading your answers and other things, the charisma aspect was never something that I understood at all.
I've seen interviews with unmasked psychopaths, including your interview where you claimed to have a significantly reduced mask, and while some of them I found likeable and other ones I found not-so-likeable, I've never seen the charisma that you are talking about from them. I would love to understand in more detail what specific things about the way you present yourself (without talking) exudes the charisma you mention. How does that even work? How does charisma for a psychopath work?
It simply who we are, and how we are. I have made it a point to mask charisma in interviews because I have no interest in anyone trying to track me down. I already have enough of that noise in my life. Perhaps I will write about it, but frankly, many of the circumstances that this has caused are unbelievable to many people. Even people who were there have told me that they wouldn't have believed it if they hadn't seen it for themselves.
I feel like a logical explanation on how you mask charisma would be really interesting to read about. For example, you say you mask it in interviews. How is this done? What do you change? Tone of voice? Volume? Do you reduce the amount of jokes you make? What things are fine-tuned in the way you speak on an interview that causes your charisma to be successfully masked? What do you avoid? I can totally understand how you mask other things like sadness and fear, because I can see that happen in the real world. However I do not understand how charisma is masked. What is the logic behind it?
I will try to explain it after thinking it over for a bit. It's kind of like breathing, you don't really think about the mechanics of it, you simply do it because you have to, and it is something you instinctually do.
You might not be neurotypical though, you don't seem to me to be neurotypical. Right out the gate I would say your IQ is higher than the 100 average. You may not be open to the charm of the psychopath.
I can't label your specific issue. But I can define you as other than neurotypical from my perspective.
Yesterday while I was attempting to close shop the last client of the day was a woman who began talking to me as I went to lock up as she was leaving. She did an entire dump on me because her husband is out of state, her father is in the hospital, she's stressed. She started making a lot of eye contact and apparently was actually getting confused about what exactly it was that she was doing. I keep expecting to see her come back by today which will be awkward
I've been in very similar situations, and it is always rather inconvenient.
Does your boyfriend also get stalkers?
He has, yes
Thank you for another post. I could never imagine your carisma would affect insects... and about stalkers: do they bother you too much? How do you deal with them? Are they harmless besides being annoying?
Each one has had to be dealt with differently, and several have not been harmless.
Athena have you ever tried to unmask someone?
No, it's not my business.
I can relate for "charisma" part. I don't have pretty face, i have tomboy image like a gangster 😂. So i think "charisma" it's not about image but it's like vibe/energy thingy. I agree that "charisma" makes people who have it, look "stand out" wherever they go, even though they are just chilling at their own peace. Easy to attract attention. In my case people often acts respectful, friendly and helpful to me. Sometimes random people helps me even i don't asks for it.
It's my question for my whole life. Why people like to tell their life stories to me, since i was young? Stranger, friends, family, neighbors, even in GAME (that they couldn't see my face!). Even though sometimes it's fun to hear other's stories, but at the same time it's drain my energy so much as well. It's like burden, the more i follow it.
A friend once told me that i have a vibe like an ideal parent, that's why people like to tell their stories. Who will silent and listen very well with patience, without much assumptions and judgment, i listen well even the painful one (not many people able to endure the painful stories without affected by it). I give them enough attentions.
I often tests and observes my friends, when they will stop talking about "me, mine, myself, i?". Jump here and there with their stories. They able to talk in days with less sleep!!! LOL. If I'm not take decision to end the conversation they will still continue without stop. So i have conclusion the more attentions they get, it will excites them. Boost their emotional positive state, it gives them energy.
I used to think people need to throw their emotional garbage to regulate their emotional system but i don't think it's fully true. They still tell the same stories repeated again and again, no matter how much they tell the stories and no matter how many people heard their stories. IT'S NEVER GET ENOUGH. And they always have problems and stories to tell.
But yeah conversation is a great tool to get ATTENTIONS...
Later I just realize they see me as a source of their emotional positive supply. They often miss me, not because of me as a person. But they need a booster to their emotional state. LOL. It's like they addicted to the hormon that will relieves when they are talking and get the attention from me. The excitement, connection, comforts and positive feelings and emotions. (No wonder you got stalkers) They become clingy.
Sometimes i just think it's a form of controlling too, directing the conversation into their own SELF. When we are "listening" is like we are in submissive position (we give our energy into the form of attention) and "talking" is like in domineering position (they take the energy). That's why I often observes people who listen drain their energy faster, and people who talk get more energy and excitement.
Maybe they controlling and directing the conversation, to get the attentions, sense of control, sense of power over others, to feel superior? Or the attentions able to satisfied their "need of connection" "need to be heard" "need to be understood" too? To feel they are worthy, significant, important enough to get attention? (Maybe...) Well it's just my assumptions for sure, i think the reason might be different for each person. 😂
I assume these people able to sense the "charismatic" person as their supply of their needs and wants LOL.
Thank you Athena for this topics!
Very interesting and I really enjoy it.
I know exactly what you mean. I have had all of these experiences as well.
What do you do when people out of nowhere download their probs on you? Do you reassure them that everything will be alright? Or do you just give them a listening ear?
Just deal with it
Thank you for showing us your answers to those questions.
I have one question, if you may answer: if two parents have no empathy. Could their child have empathy?
Yes, certainly. For instance, two psychopaths can, and likely will, have a neurotypical child. Psychopathy does not have a clear line of inheritance. It is much more random than that.
Thanks
Good, I am not a psychopath then, on this description. It was always a stupid idea. When I was about 6 years old I used to go around my granny's. Who pretended she could not read the radio times properly and let me watch 18 certificate horror movies.
In the frightening bits I would run behind the sofa and she would just see two little eyes poking out from behind it.
Now that my health has improved though, now that I am able to, I will most likely have to be constructing a mask nonetheless.
Of all those mentioned, the one that is the hardest for me to mask is the long term care. I have to take the extra step to show the people that I care about them, especially my boyfriend. On autopilot I'll prioritize myself, their well being won't even cross my mind. I always have to take a step back and see how I can show that I care, that I want them around. I've lost many "friends" who claimed that I don't care enough about them (just because I'm not one to always initiate conversation or go after them. Silly, I know).
I think I'm always repeating that in every comment, but it's because its genuine. All I do is not meant to cause any harm but they're always expecting me to act in a way that without a mask, I can't do it intuitively. Therefore, they always get disappointed in me. Oh well.. haha
Yes, I am very much the same way. It is something that requires constant awareness.
As for the lack of initiation of conversation or going after them, I don't know if you have tried this, but being very straight forward about this not being something in your nature and to not expect it can have benefits.
Yep, I can try that! Thank you for the tip. The ones I know for a long time know how I function so they don't really care bout it anymore haha, but it can be quite effective for the ones I am meeting for the first time (not that I am interested new people unless it's highly necessary)
I am the opposite to you two here. My ideal is to contact people whenever I want and I don't get at all upset if people don't contact me back frequently. I have had problems in the past with continuing to contact people after they have tried to subtly end it so of the friends I do have, if they make clear they are not being intentionally evasive I will be fine to simply contact them when I want to.
Yep, I understand! I have a friend who told me once that it's completely fine to reply whenever I could or felt like to. She's always sending me some random messages about random situations that happened in her day. I find it amusing! And I do respect her for understanding my side
What’s really interesting is the differences between psychopathy and narcissists…