When I was a young man an older gentleman I knew who was a veteran of the Pacific theater in WWI told me that you have to have a code to live your life by. He started with the suggestion, "No women, no kids" meaning you don't kill women and children. He also admitted that he had a deeply rooted dislike of the Japanese people even though he knew it was wrong to hold a grudge by his own personal code.
Being deliberately cruel, from my personal observations, comes from have an emotional response to the cruelty that you are inflicting and the fact that there were 4 shovels indicates to me that this woman was invested emotionally in what they did.
I imagine you are this meticulous with all your life activities just about, am I right? This was so beautifully (if that is even possible) and thoughtfully presented- a delight to read after watching J Ballen's video (I have been a subscriber of his for a while myself). Thank you for this, Athena. I agree with you on every point made. Sadly, there are scores of disturbed people like this at any given time everywhere on our planet, carrying on in similar horrifying ways.
I bet the core of Tiffany's personality is an extremely uncomfortable one.
I, as an individual, have found that defense against these types is the logical goal. Understanding them is helpful and makes for interesting science and conversation for sure, but I doubt there are any actual remedial steps that would change such a personality so I abandoned that a while back in my life. I love (love love) what you stated about being true to one's self when making decisions such as Tiffany and her companions did. I only developed my moral code through my own personal experiences over a long time, and only then could I say that irrespective of any other factor, my ethics are to be faithful to my own soul. One must have a personal standard, and adhere to it diligently.
I watched part of the video after reading, it was the video that I couldn't get through. They could only think about themselves, still no acceptance of responsibility at all.
It's concerning that the professionals seem to have missed parts of her personality and some of her lies, that you have noticed. I wish you worked in this field :)
Yet, somehow, she got the appropriate penalty for such a crime. Whether she participated fully or partially, society does need protecting from someone able and willing to commit such acts.
As a side note, the story you wrote about Junko's murder was harder emotionally than this one. It's still horrific, of course, but the other one has come back to my mind many times since and I still can't believe it happened the way it did.
"I am aware that a person currently using drugs will show a distinct lack of care for those around them. They are only going to care about the drugs, their next ability to obtain, and use said drugs. However, in this case it was said that Tiffany was no longer using drugs, so altered mental state was not what allowed her to continue to listen to the victims cry and beg. My guess is that it was the lack of instructions through emotions via drug use. Nothing about what happened throughout the planning of this crime led any of the participants to step back and say, 'this is not a good idea. I don’t want to be involved.'”
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that, although Tiffany was no longer on drugs, the drugs had already permanently halted the emotional development of her brain.
I agree with your conclusions completely. Drugs and alcohol do stop the brain from maturing,, as far as I know even if you stop using your brain will mature far more slowly. I have no idea of you ever catch up to where you should be. We did learn about studies on this when I was in alonon for my oldest. It explained a lot. Plus adding in the sexual abuse, no wonder she was a mess. Sad story, but I feel almost as sad for her as the people she killed.
Not for what she did but that her life was ruined long before this happened. The cause and effect is astounding.
Far be it from me to skate past the horrific example of evil, but I'm going to skate past the horrific example of evil, and focus on RDR2 and gamers who play--or 'roleplay'--as evil.
I don't get it. Okay, intellectually, I can sort of wrap my mind around it if I squint just right, and studies show that those who play violent games are less likely to commit violent crimes than non-gamers, so maybe there's some benefit to it. Maybe acting those things out in a consequence-free setting makes them less likely to do them in real life.
But I'm always going to look askance at anyone who plays that way. It makes me think that they're refraining from doing evil in their real lives due to EXTERNAL controls, rather than internal ones. That's not someone I can truly trust.
(On the other hand, I loot EVERYTHING in video games, and I'd never loot in real life, even if I knew no one would ever find out. But I'd also never kill an innocent NPC for their stuff, so there's that....)
Reading your articles is helping me understand my family dynamic more. My sister and I couldn't be more different, both raised by a rageful NPD mother with a once every 2-weeks father. I ended up on the INTP/ INTJ side of things (it's a 50/50 split on the last letter) while she ended up more ENTP. I remember very early in childhood realizing that my mother was "off" and started distancing myself emotionally, which wasn't difficult, she was a monster. I read a lot, thought a lot, mom called me weird but i didn't care. My sister tried to play the NPD game with mom to "win" her love, but there was no winning that game. Mom had no love or affection for anyone, she put insurmountable conditions on obtaining even a barest hint of approval, you can forget heartfelt love altogether. When younger sister discovered boys, it was all over. I dragged her half naked ass out of a few backseats and even picked her up from the army barracks at Ft. Knox after she had been going door to door servicing the service men, she was 14. I understand how her brain got wired wrong, what I cannot forgive her for is not recognizing her selfish behavior now that she is a fully grown adult aged 41 who STILL has no empathic skills. But she tells people that she is an empath, i don't know if she is even aware that she is lying, is her delusion that strong? I've apologized so many times to people she has wronged, families she has destroyed with infidelity, drugs, felonies or just plain whimsy. I'm exhausted, i'm the only person in the family she will listen to and i am out of ideas. These type of people just DO NOT CARE about anything or anyone but their own flights of fancy.
I would just like to add that the cluster B diagnosis such as BPD does not necessarily discount the ASPD one - I think you've also written that at least once. This is important because, save for the drugs, the need to be accepted by her peers might have influenced her actions.
This would be an equivalent to the concept of "herd mentality", if I'm not mistaken, and would at the same time satisfy the emotional constraints of a Borderline Personality disordered human (no cognitive empathy, affective lacking due to drugs and/or herd mentality).
I would say that this was irrelevant, but then again, you go to such great details in your analysis, that I feel like you would want to hear the additional details found if they made any sense. Not to mention how saying that would beg another question as to why I wrote the reply in the first place xD But that one I can readily answer - sometimes it helps to write things down only to (re)organize your thoughts, so I guess that's mostly why I write these replies anyway (a year after they were initially posted, as well).
Still, getting a reply other than "thanks for your reply" would be great, as it would perhaps open a useful discussion, but oh well, I'll take what I can :D
What really stands out is the method of killing, why they would chose to bury them alive while they are screaming rather than use the shovels to finish their suffering. It almost implies a sadistic nature to this crime. If the intention was to kill them, as you have laid out above, then the method really raises questions about not only their empathy but their rational for acting so cruelly. The only logical reason I can think of would be to avoid getting DNA on a murder weapon , although this seems very unlikely. Unless the group component came into effect and none of them wanted to be the one to give the final blow so they just ended up burying them alive. Although the fact that they were out celebrating later perhaps shows that these people weren't just lacking empathy but had developed a sadistic nature.
When I was a young man an older gentleman I knew who was a veteran of the Pacific theater in WWI told me that you have to have a code to live your life by. He started with the suggestion, "No women, no kids" meaning you don't kill women and children. He also admitted that he had a deeply rooted dislike of the Japanese people even though he knew it was wrong to hold a grudge by his own personal code.
Being deliberately cruel, from my personal observations, comes from have an emotional response to the cruelty that you are inflicting and the fact that there were 4 shovels indicates to me that this woman was invested emotionally in what they did.
I imagine you are this meticulous with all your life activities just about, am I right? This was so beautifully (if that is even possible) and thoughtfully presented- a delight to read after watching J Ballen's video (I have been a subscriber of his for a while myself). Thank you for this, Athena. I agree with you on every point made. Sadly, there are scores of disturbed people like this at any given time everywhere on our planet, carrying on in similar horrifying ways.
I bet the core of Tiffany's personality is an extremely uncomfortable one.
I, as an individual, have found that defense against these types is the logical goal. Understanding them is helpful and makes for interesting science and conversation for sure, but I doubt there are any actual remedial steps that would change such a personality so I abandoned that a while back in my life. I love (love love) what you stated about being true to one's self when making decisions such as Tiffany and her companions did. I only developed my moral code through my own personal experiences over a long time, and only then could I say that irrespective of any other factor, my ethics are to be faithful to my own soul. One must have a personal standard, and adhere to it diligently.
I watched part of the video after reading, it was the video that I couldn't get through. They could only think about themselves, still no acceptance of responsibility at all.
It's concerning that the professionals seem to have missed parts of her personality and some of her lies, that you have noticed. I wish you worked in this field :)
Yet, somehow, she got the appropriate penalty for such a crime. Whether she participated fully or partially, society does need protecting from someone able and willing to commit such acts.
As a side note, the story you wrote about Junko's murder was harder emotionally than this one. It's still horrific, of course, but the other one has come back to my mind many times since and I still can't believe it happened the way it did.
"I am aware that a person currently using drugs will show a distinct lack of care for those around them. They are only going to care about the drugs, their next ability to obtain, and use said drugs. However, in this case it was said that Tiffany was no longer using drugs, so altered mental state was not what allowed her to continue to listen to the victims cry and beg. My guess is that it was the lack of instructions through emotions via drug use. Nothing about what happened throughout the planning of this crime led any of the participants to step back and say, 'this is not a good idea. I don’t want to be involved.'”
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that, although Tiffany was no longer on drugs, the drugs had already permanently halted the emotional development of her brain.
I agree with your conclusions completely. Drugs and alcohol do stop the brain from maturing,, as far as I know even if you stop using your brain will mature far more slowly. I have no idea of you ever catch up to where you should be. We did learn about studies on this when I was in alonon for my oldest. It explained a lot. Plus adding in the sexual abuse, no wonder she was a mess. Sad story, but I feel almost as sad for her as the people she killed.
Not for what she did but that her life was ruined long before this happened. The cause and effect is astounding.
Far be it from me to skate past the horrific example of evil, but I'm going to skate past the horrific example of evil, and focus on RDR2 and gamers who play--or 'roleplay'--as evil.
I don't get it. Okay, intellectually, I can sort of wrap my mind around it if I squint just right, and studies show that those who play violent games are less likely to commit violent crimes than non-gamers, so maybe there's some benefit to it. Maybe acting those things out in a consequence-free setting makes them less likely to do them in real life.
But I'm always going to look askance at anyone who plays that way. It makes me think that they're refraining from doing evil in their real lives due to EXTERNAL controls, rather than internal ones. That's not someone I can truly trust.
(On the other hand, I loot EVERYTHING in video games, and I'd never loot in real life, even if I knew no one would ever find out. But I'd also never kill an innocent NPC for their stuff, so there's that....)
Reading your articles is helping me understand my family dynamic more. My sister and I couldn't be more different, both raised by a rageful NPD mother with a once every 2-weeks father. I ended up on the INTP/ INTJ side of things (it's a 50/50 split on the last letter) while she ended up more ENTP. I remember very early in childhood realizing that my mother was "off" and started distancing myself emotionally, which wasn't difficult, she was a monster. I read a lot, thought a lot, mom called me weird but i didn't care. My sister tried to play the NPD game with mom to "win" her love, but there was no winning that game. Mom had no love or affection for anyone, she put insurmountable conditions on obtaining even a barest hint of approval, you can forget heartfelt love altogether. When younger sister discovered boys, it was all over. I dragged her half naked ass out of a few backseats and even picked her up from the army barracks at Ft. Knox after she had been going door to door servicing the service men, she was 14. I understand how her brain got wired wrong, what I cannot forgive her for is not recognizing her selfish behavior now that she is a fully grown adult aged 41 who STILL has no empathic skills. But she tells people that she is an empath, i don't know if she is even aware that she is lying, is her delusion that strong? I've apologized so many times to people she has wronged, families she has destroyed with infidelity, drugs, felonies or just plain whimsy. I'm exhausted, i'm the only person in the family she will listen to and i am out of ideas. These type of people just DO NOT CARE about anything or anyone but their own flights of fancy.
Great analysis, subjectively and objectively!
I would just like to add that the cluster B diagnosis such as BPD does not necessarily discount the ASPD one - I think you've also written that at least once. This is important because, save for the drugs, the need to be accepted by her peers might have influenced her actions.
This would be an equivalent to the concept of "herd mentality", if I'm not mistaken, and would at the same time satisfy the emotional constraints of a Borderline Personality disordered human (no cognitive empathy, affective lacking due to drugs and/or herd mentality).
I would say that this was irrelevant, but then again, you go to such great details in your analysis, that I feel like you would want to hear the additional details found if they made any sense. Not to mention how saying that would beg another question as to why I wrote the reply in the first place xD But that one I can readily answer - sometimes it helps to write things down only to (re)organize your thoughts, so I guess that's mostly why I write these replies anyway (a year after they were initially posted, as well).
Still, getting a reply other than "thanks for your reply" would be great, as it would perhaps open a useful discussion, but oh well, I'll take what I can :D
What really stands out is the method of killing, why they would chose to bury them alive while they are screaming rather than use the shovels to finish their suffering. It almost implies a sadistic nature to this crime. If the intention was to kill them, as you have laid out above, then the method really raises questions about not only their empathy but their rational for acting so cruelly. The only logical reason I can think of would be to avoid getting DNA on a murder weapon , although this seems very unlikely. Unless the group component came into effect and none of them wanted to be the one to give the final blow so they just ended up burying them alive. Although the fact that they were out celebrating later perhaps shows that these people weren't just lacking empathy but had developed a sadistic nature.