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Well Athena, as a neurodivergent who literally had no idea how different I was, I have damage from just being raised and around neurotypicals. And honestly, I commend you but sometimes I am that lunatic screaming in the street, “what the fuck is wrong with u people?” Bc seriously, I just don’t get it. But I do get it thru a lot of studying and cognitively. Great post, once again.

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Thank you, Molly. I do understand the confusing behavior of other people. The emotional stage play if a baffling one to observe.

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Athena, on the baffling and confusing:?:

As a child or young lady, could you tell when your parents lied to you?

My sister (drama queen) a couple years older, got me to accompany her to "question the mother".

It took years to realize: "Mommy lies". Mommy has issues (secrets) she is NOT going to discuss: Not such a great liar but a decent lie, with such ease and finality.

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Again, Athena describes my early life experiences and the issues my parents had with me. To this day I will look around and wonder exactly what the hell is wrong with everyone.

This month I reconnected with an old friend, a woman, and in addition to confessing her huge crush on me when she was a teenager she actually thanked me for protecting her with just my presence when there were some men who had bad intentions. I only vaguely recalled the incident but it made a huge impression that a guy who wasn't particularly physical looking could stare down three grown men. I bring that up because along with all the crap that having entire sections of brain wiring gone causes it also does things that mightily impress people. Anyway, I got called a hero which I pretended to be embarrassed about.

As always love your writing Athena and I always seem to get some new insight into how I am me

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Happy to be of service

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But if, as I said, this is someone you (let’s say hypothetically, at least) know so well, such as a sibling you can read, who you know doesn’t mask up, and you’re convinced they are truly sorry, that makes a difference to me. It’s the trust that you know them that can be a slippery slope. And any forgiveness you give them is contingent on no more BS from them. That means they have unmistakably become the new them that would not repeat the offense. Again, just me. I wouldn’t expect you to take that path. If our world were such that leniency were never shown I can’t say it wouldn’t be a better world. I just wrestle with all the soul stuff that spiritual (again, wish I had a less pompous-sounding word to apply) people like me. Ask Jess how she feels about my comments if you have the time and inclination. I’d like to hear her thoughts on this subject.

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I sent your comment to her. Hopefully she will get to it soon

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Athena,

I finally get you. I get it. I read it out loud to myself in my own sarcastic voice and you made me fucking laugh❗️🤣

To a sarcastic neurotypical I appreciate your humor.

I know you don’t know what “Thanks” means at least emotionally but cognitively HOLY SHIT it’s exhausting being in your head & I just realized how irritating and brain draining it is for you dealing with us.

Holy fuck.

Well it ain’t rainbows & unicorns being neurotypical.

Seriously after reading you, you are a

good storyteller. Yes that’s a compliment. No you don’t have to

say thank you.

Now I got a glimpse into your world.

How do you keep up your brain energy?

So it’s not as easy as you make it look in your world. You have to remember what facial expressions you need at work to deal appropriately with different people so they won’t think you’re just a AI robot.

I bet you sleep like a rock 🪨

And the fact you don’t have anyone like you to pattern how you could learn from.

It’s like you could you use a mentor psychopath to tell train you to fit in this world. You’ve probably thought

“What the fuck is wrong with these humans and they have way too many emotional looks on their faces.

Fuck I’m outta here.

They are too complicated for my time.

I’m still trying to wrap my head around the fact that a psychopath makes me laugh.

I’m not normal, I guess but you know I don’t care.

Try to spin that one to your world 👍🏻

Just think backwards.

Athena if you could handle me laughing at what you bluntly say knowing I’m not laughing at you but I find your story telling interesting.

For me I know I could handle it.

When you described the story about a psychologist or psychiatrist wanted you to drop the mask and you did.

She had to walk away because she couldn’t handle it. I find that kind weak on her part because she never really understood your world or took the time to see through to your side of things.

What I found funny when you said

you left the room because people were looking at you oddly and then went to a room with a tv to watch more human chaos.

That made me laugh 👍🏻

I’m sure you’re not drugging through

my response,

So on that note I end with saying

I’m glad you’re writing and I know you’re a human being even though I we don’t feel the same way.

Good Read Athena ✅

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I am glad I made you laugh, and no, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest

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"- this need to be liked everywhere. I get the tribalism reasoning, but it’s still weird, okay? It’s just weird."

You didn't have to call me out like that. No need for all this violence. Athena, I was just trying to enjoy my breakfast.

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That's funny

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Just yesterday I got scolded by my therapist regarding this, and today by you. I'm working on it, I promise.

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Excellent

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Very good post.When it comes to teaching people about controling your emotions i personally think that psyschopathy can be of use.And buddism or stoicism.

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I agree

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I haven’t finished reading yet, but I would comment that the guilt, remorse, regret, and even shame NTs feel are the payback for what they’ve done. Because they did, as you said, know they were choosing to do something wrong and did it anyway. They have to deal with the consequences. But there is a difference between those who regret what they did and those who don’t. Those who do regret certainly can’t feel sorry for themselves, and should be punished for what they did. Neither can they expect any forgiveness from the injured party, or anyone else. But, to me, the more pronounced the remorse, etc., the better the post-offense person is. If you know - as you should with a ‘typical’ NT that you’ve known well for years and can read clearly - that they are sorry and would not repeat the offense given another chance, then you have closure of a sort, and can move on from your anger, resentment, etc. I know you see all those emotions as shredder material, but we’re stuck with at least a muted form of them for all our lives. The closure that follows helps us begin the emotional healing that you are blissfully not in need of. I envy you for sure, but if you’re the spiritual (for lack of a better word) type like me, you consider this as part of your cross to bear on the long climb to just being a better person. Just an NTs thoughts.

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I don't know about that. I have seen plenty of people feel bad about things because it is an attention seeking behavior. They act like they are just so sorry, and perhaps they really feel bad, but they make the situation about them, and leaves the person wronged feeling bad for them. How you feel has nothing to do with your goodness or badness. Your actions do.

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I think that's the whole point of guilt, no? It is there to guide your future actions and serves as an unpleasant reminder of whatever you did. It is supposed to be like a little alarm going off in your head to signal your integrity chain has been broken. Those that have no integrity will obviously not be affected by it. The drive to suck forgiveness out of the other person is to soothe that guilt. Even if you think about it as just a performance, a pleasantry, it is still a real feeling and has real value.

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That's a good argument

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Exactly. They are SOOO sorry -- but then they repeat the behavior.

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Athena: What if everyone, in their brain wiring "knows" that? And agrees with you? I think most of us do agree.

For me: I look inside myself and see my heart is black. It is a Rolling Stones lyric, but states it well enough.

No amount of remorse changes this. I have wrecked havoc in the lives of others. (I'm pretty sure more compared to others, but I don't know)

My "goodness" forget the past and do "better" in the present.

Isn't this about right for all of us?

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Here's the thing that you must understand. I lack empathy, oh I can see that something must certainly suck and I know that having something really suck is not good. I lack the strong emotional response that you experience as well so even if I had something like real empathy I have no emotions to mirror it. Between those two facts and the fact that I know people can fake it or redirect the response to getting caught I just can't take it seriously.

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So very true

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Some people feel badly, say they are sorry, but then do it again. Others feel badly, say they are sorry, and then stop. Those who stop feel genuine remorse and DECIDE to stop. Those who don't stop may genuinely feel awful. My dad was one of them. But that whole "forgiveness" thing is about getting situations back to "supposed normal". In other words, no actual change.

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The sheer number of mass shootings that happen every year, and the only response being ✨thoughts and prayers✨. If people actually cared, sensible gun laws would’ve been made years ago. Emotions are meaningless unless they’re backed up by action.

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Gun laws will make no difference in mass death. Guns are a tool, and the tool can be switched out for something else. They are all the time, and the result is no less terrible.

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I’d be impressed if someone managed to kill 50 people in 30 seconds with a knife. While people will use different weapons without guns, the scale able to be achieved is a lot less.

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Not even close. People use bombs, vehicles, fire, among many other things.

China has enormous barriers in front of their elementary schools to try to prevent people driving over the children. This happens all the time.

In Japan, Sarin gas was released on the Subway.

Where people want mass death, they will get it. Blaming the tool they use is shortsighted.

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I’m not calling for the ban of guns. I’m calling for regulation.

Vehicles are dangerous, that’s why to drive and own a car, cars have to be registered, they require insurance, and the car owner needs to have a license.

As far as I’m aware, not every state requires gun owners to have any of these requirements to own a gun.

If gun laws did not factor in violence, then why does the US have one of the highest homicide rates among developed countries?

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/murder-rate-by-country

Japan, one of the countries you mentioned, has one of the lowest homicide rates in the world. With 0.25 per capita.

There are multiple factors that lead to a country’s homicide rate. That doesn’t mean however, that gun violence doesn’t play a part.

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None of those things would change the homicide rate, or gun violence. Criminals do not care about the laws, and they are the vast majority of the cases of gun violence. Making it harder for someone to protect themselves solves nothing.

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To be fair I agree with you that gun laws wouldn't stop criminals from getting their hands on guns. Sadly I think things have already gone too far in the U.S. - the problem is the ubiquitousness of guns over there, and the ease of access to them - to the extent that even teenagers and occasionally really young children can sometimes get their hands on them. And I'm not sure that stricter gun laws are going to have much impact on that now, it may already be too late to backtrack from where we're at - unless they start paying people to give them up. But what I do know is that we have plenty of criminals with guns in the UK, but almost no ordinary people owning guns, and a fraction of the gun death rate of the U.S., even adjusting for population size.

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Great post! As with everything there are positives and negatives but it is easier to think the grass is greener on the other side. Im sure there are many things that affect a psychopath differently that nobody would even think about from medicine not working to not having the fear and guilt emotions that are wired to keep you from making bad choices.

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Agreed, and really, the medication one shouldn't be underestimated. When needed, finding that it doesn't work, can be a pretty negative thing. There are plenty of things that can create a negative when it comes to psychopathy. It's all a matter of perspective and choices.

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Has this ever happened to you?

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What in particular?

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Having a medication not work on you. I'm aware that having muted oxytocin receptors would make going into labour harder and administering synthetic oxytocin would probably have little to no effect.

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Oh yes, many times. It should be the standard assumption by my doctor that medication will not work normally on me.

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Really? Even simple ones like anti inflammatories?

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Athena I agree with you that mass death is perfectly possible without guns - you listed some good examples. But I don't think that people who want tighter gun laws want them because they think it will make mass death impossible, we know that it won't. Hell you can even use a commercial aircraft as a weapon if you're really determined, as we found out on 9/11.

But causing an explosion, releasing poisonous gas, or hijacking an aircraft take a significant amount of planning, and sourcing of fairly unusual equipment/substances - it absolutely can be done, as we know only too well, but it requires determination and commitment, and for the person to work towards their goal over a long period, without wavering or changing their mind. It is a very much premeditated and deliberate act.

Guns, on the other hand, can just be picked up in a rage and fired, and can easily kill tens of people in a matter of minutes. The problem is not that guns are the only conceivable weapon that could be used to cause mass death, and getting rid of them would eliminate it completely. The problem is that guns make causing mass death so damn easy, and with virtually no planning or premeditation.

That's why the homicide rate is so much lower in almost every other developed country (UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan, Europe) - we still have mentality ill people, horribly abused and traumatised people angry at the world, and kids that are being bullied at school and would cheerfully kill all their classmates and half their teachers. The difference is that these countries are not awash with guns, so it's much harder for those people to take their anger out on the world on a whim - and if they do they're restricted to weapons that can't cause death on anywhere near the same scale. To cause death on the same scale that guns can would take an inordinate amount of planning over a long period, and very very few people, no matter how disturbed, have that level of commitment.

People that want tighter gun control in the U.S. don't think it will eliminate mass death, they just think it will result in alot less death overall, as evidenced by the much much lower homicides rates in most other countries.

Granted less death is not the same as no death, but it's not nothing either - and it seems like a worthwhile goal when every single death leaves so many other lives in tatters.

Absolutely loved this post though, it's one of your best. Don't think you've ever articulated the experience of growing up psychopathic quite as clearly as you did in this one - or why it's not the same as suddenly becoming psychopathic (if that was possible) as an adult.

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Thank you, Athena, so well put. As I grow older now, 57, I realize I have survived a disorder that takes a lot of young lives as not caring at all comes with some pretty serious consequences - ER, jail, Psych ward, dismissed at work, divorced, out of touch with family and unemployed. Then we get it, some, most of us. I put myself in Jail and ER and all the rest of it , because, as Muse sings, I'm a fuc#in Psycho. Then we work things out with ourselves and society because all of the above sucked really badly. Life is eventually easy , but easier than n.t.'s?, maybe, from some point if view, but your backyard is a total disaster and needs a clean up badly, after we realize who's been causing all our problems. That takes time and teaches valuable lessons too. Thanks for being you and sharing with all of us, and the excellent article.

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Thank you, Lorne

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4dEdited

These anecdotes match me vs my friend exactly. He once related a story to me about how his parents were confused when they physically punished him in childhood and he just laughed during the punishment and they realized it doesn't work. "You're not supposed to laugh!" No reflexive shame or guilt reflex like normal people.

He also said it takes a lot of observation and learning to act normal, crafting various masks for different situations. Edward Dutton's "The Wisdom of Psychopaths" helped both of us a lot: Me to understand him and him to understand what exactly makes him different. I bring it up because in the book the author "[...] undergoes transcranial magnetic stimulation to discover firsthand exactly how it feels to see through the eyes of a psychopath." Turns out you can put on a fancy hat and zap your brain into being a psychopath for about 30 minutes. HOWEVER, when the author did it he immediately pulled out his phone and started texting all sorts of nasty messages to his boss about how much he hated them. His other inhibitions were also zero because the emotional hesitation and fear that reigned in his actions was completely gone. From recollection if there was a hot babe he'd probably have aggressively hit on her on the spot and I think he started dialing other people too.

Once the effect wore off he was aghast at what he'd done and promised that he would give his phone to someone to keep away from him if he did it again. I always joke that being a psychopath is badass and I should get a personal transcranial mag stimulator to turn it on before a business meeting or date and my friend always reminds me that it takes a lifetime of experience to have the discipline to not immediately do something stupid like Dutton did which I don't have. A series of rules you follow purely because you A/B tested them over and over and changes based on circumstances and still fails sometimes. I would be a maskless force of will if I suddenly jumped into it.

That would be a hard life to adjust to, where everything I do is wrong but only sometimes unless it's the exact right thing to do, sorta like joining Mad Hatter's tea party.

Psychopath: Hey I think I got the hang of this tea party

Normies: CHANGE! PLACES!

*everyone runs around changing seats for no discernable reason*

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I have read and quoted Kevin Dutton's experience with TMS several times, and as far I can recall, he never said anything about texting anyone, let alone things of that nature. He spoke about people being in one of two minds if they ever had a day to do whatever they wanted without consequences, and the two answers were:

1. To confess love for someone that they did not have the courage to tell previously

2. Kill someone they hated

Dutton went out with Andy McNab that night and found that many of his internal inhibitions were absent. However, TMS doesn't last very long, around a half hour to forty-five minutes. He didn't state doing anything he regretted. If anyone is interested in the text of the TMS experiment, it can be found here:

https://www.quora.com/What-do-you-think-would-happen-if-a-neurotypical-was-rewired-with-the-brain-structure-of-a-psychopath-or-sociopath/answer/Athena-Walker

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Dang I must have fabricated that part then, I could have sworn the phone anecdote was in there but I pulled up my copy of the book and it's just not there. At least I remembered hitting on the girl.

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Indeed, that was apparently quite out of character for him.

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Thank you for 1,2 listed above:

NT despite their "feelings" never quite give themselves over to them.

They fear both love and death. Do they live "safely" free of any real risk of truly living?

How can we read that and not agree our lives are "better": fuller, richer?

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I think better, or any other descriptor, really falls into the eye of the beholder, and what they value

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Yes. You always keep us centered on this. Of course.

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Great post Dave.

My mother may have been like your friend's. She hit me harder and harder, eventually using 2X4 lumber which she broke on me. I certainly did not experience shame or guilt. Actually, until I read your words, I didn't realize shame and guilt is intended.

Monsters do that to their own children. I'm a better parent than I realize. Thanks.

Dutton's book was about ten years ago and is in the context of material and career success.

He notes psychopaths do normal, and above normal, constructive and helpful work, every day. And the world is better for it. Thanks again. I really enjoyed your post.

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YES!!! You will ALWAYS prefer to be YOU. However, inartfully, I expressed this in the past: I am this way too! MUAH!! Great post- have a wonderful holiday.

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