Ask A Psychopath's Friend
Part Two...
Hey guys, hopefully you’re having a great week. Today will be another post answering one of your questions directed to Jess.
It's interesting that you said you never have to doubt Athena's authenticity - on face value that seems counter-intuitive and contradictory, because psychopaths are well known for their masks, and based on Athena's own descriptions it sounds like she's almost never completely mask off with anyone, so technically almost all of her interactions with other people are inauthentic.
But at the same time, I feel like I know exactly what you mean by it... I find the same with Athena's posts and replies to comments - you always know that you're getting a thoughtful, considered, rational and logical response, rather than one driven by (and clouded by) emotion, and there is something kind of hyper-authentic about that - about the lack of emotional drivers for her views and thoughts.
Then again, I don't know how much Athena is mask-off online - I definitely detect hints of a mask, because I'm sure thanking people for their comments etc. isn't something a psychopath would do naturally. But I tend to assume that there would be less need for the mask online, and that therefore the Athena we know is pretty authentic. So it's interesting that you have the same view, as someone who is close to her IRL.
Jess:
I suppose I should give you a little background about myself. If nothing else, you can get a sense of who I am, and to be quite frank, I am doing this for my friend and I hope that she appreciates it in her own way. I feel as though she's asked me to do this to help me continue to engage with the outside world vs. remaining within the safety of my cave. I used to write, but that was a very long time ago, when I moderated a small group on Yahoo. Good grief! Time sure has flown by.
To make a long story short, my mom kicked me out at 14. I was found and for the next decade was raised by 1 percent outlaw bikers. I saw and experienced things that no young person should ever have to see, or endure. So as you can imagine, I have been exposed to some of the most deviant. Not your everyday common NTs. But, enough of that. Those are days long past.....
When I say I never have to question Athena’s authenticity, it's because she has been honest with me about herself, how her mind works, and how she engages with the world around her. That's a far cry from what I have received from many NTs. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Athena for this alone. How many people do you know who are actually honest with themselves?
I am going to share some personal info that may give you an idea of why I feel so strongly about her authenticity. I will try to be brief as to not give too much away, in case my exes prying eyes come across this post. Honestly, I just don't care anymore. I was married to a narcissist. We had what I thought was a good life, but after almost a decade he decided he wanted to live his authentic life. To be his authentic self. Le sigh...far from anything resembling the truth. He was a liar from the get-go! How could he possibly be authentic, if our entire marriage was nothing but a farce. A complete facade. You think you know someone after all that time, and then one day they leave a note on the kitchen counter and slink off like a rat. So...
To answer your question. I would have to agree with you. Since I have never seen her entirely mask down, I don’t have any idea what that must be like for someone who is not a part of her inner circle of close friends or family. Quite frankly, I don’t want to know. It’s been a long road to get where we are in terms of our friendship, and it’s not always been easy. We’ve had our falling outs and screaming matches. Those moments were ugly and escalated quickly. I learned that I never want to have a disagreement that involves yelling. She will match me quickly and nothing gets accomplished. Well, I don’t accomplish sh*t, while she slips away with a smile and goes about her day. I end up hurt or pissed, and she walks away unscathed, and unfazed. My feelings just aren’t her problem. I used to be incredibly bothered by this, as I felt there would never be a win for me.
However, after 17+ years, I have learned. The only way for me to get a win is to remain calm and use only logic and facts. That saying “facts don’t give a shit about your feelings” is oh so very true when it comes to Athena. And, when that mask comes down, there is a look of intensity in her eyes that can send shivers down my spine that makes me want to just hide in my little cave. I have seen that look before, and it takes me back to a place I don't want to be. Nothing good ever came from taking the easy way out. We both work hard toward understanding each other because we want each other in our lives. She keeps me around I suppose because I serve a purpose, and she tells me she enjoys my company, and we both admire loyalty. Another trait missing in today's world.
To say that she is inauthentic is understandable, but in my opinion, somewhat inaccurate. She is true and authentic to herself, and that is something that I like about her. She sets pretty high standards for herself in every regard. She has integrity. Another aspect that I find is sorely lacking in much of today's society. That and the inability to hold themselves accountable and take responsibility for their actions. At least Athena is honest about who she is, what she is, and what she can provide or not. I think she is the fortunate one. She is free from fear, guilt, and all the emotional baggage many NTs have. I admire the freedom she has, but on the flip side, there are times I almost feel sorry for her, that she will never feel love as deeply as I think I do. Though she may not feel love, what she does provide is security. I know she’s in it for the long haul because I am still here. She may not be capable of emotional vomiting, but she shows she gives a shit about my wellbeing and wants the best for me. She proves this in the things she does, not the things she says. “Action talks and BS walks!”
There are those that go through this world believing that they are authentic, but in reality, they wear a costume to make others believe they are something other than what they truly are. How many are actually capable of honest introspection? So while the mask is an inauthentic presentation, I know the person behind the mask and I know the person's authenticity.
Back to me. I can understand the question. The mask, in and of itself, is a lie. It is one of the many reasons that few people are ever considered friends by me. They have to have put time put in, the investment made in seeing the mask for what it is, and who I am without it. There is almost never going to be an occasion to be fully mask off, and the occasions in which it would be necessary are times that I would prefer to avoid anyway. It is far less desirable to have to deal with situations in which it would have to be dropped completely than it is to simply have life go along swimmingly.
If I don’t know you, you definitely do not know me. There are plenty of people that think that being friends with the mask is what it’s like to be friends with a psychopath, and I can tell you that is not it at all. Being friends with a psychopath can hurt emotionally. All of the emotions that are so critical to your basic functioning are often not present, or, if they are, they do not dictate our experience. It takes years of learning and experience to understand the importance of that emotional life. It is a constant state of learning.
When your friend has no idea why what they just said or did is emotionally damaging, there can certain by a type of resentment that starts to form. People often think that we do it on purpose. That isn’t the case, normally. In most situations, it isn’t about doing something that is emotionally painful, but rather, we have no concept that something like that could ever be painful. As much as we develop cognitive empathy, there is still the default assumption that others see the world as we do. It takes knowing better, and also consistently applying that knowledge to every interaction. It’s pretty contrary to how we think. We are usually self-focused, to be otherwise, takes effort.
Imagine having a conversation with someone about something that you are emotionally hurt about, but the other person has no reaction to it. Be it, you’re upset about something in your life and want comfort, or you have an issue with that individual, but you know when you discuss it with them, they will have an indifferent response to it. Usually, I have found, neurotypicals very much want you to respond with like emotion. It seems to make them feel heard and understood. However, that is not what you are going to get from an unmasked or partially masked psychopath. You are going to get a flat response of, “Okay”, and that is only if they agree with your assessment of the situation. Chances are, we won’t, and will tell you as much dispassionately. That doesn’t sit well with many.
I have encouraged Jess to speak about the negatives of being friends with someone like me, and I hope that she does so. I think that it is an important part of understanding friendships like this sort that requires a great deal of work. I have had many requests from strangers for friendship. They know not what they ask, and most that have asked me are precisely the type that think they could handle it, but the reality is, it would destroy them. Psychopaths can make you stronger in terms of creating boundaries, not being moved by sob stories and toxic manipulations, but only if the person is capable of seeing and accepting things that may need to be changed in the way that they behave in the world.
A psychopath will tell you the truth, but often truth is very brutal, and there is no understanding of why that should be upsetting. Recently, I have been speaking with someone that suspects psychopathy about themselves, and is finding it difficult to understand the emotional landscape that might make introspection difficult in many neurotypicals. Psychopaths lack the care about their negative traits, nor the pride in their positive ones. It simply is. We often tend to treat those around us as though they have that same understanding, and that is difficult to change.
If you have questions about the negatives of being friends with a psychopath, ask them. That way, Jess can address them. She is coming from the perspective of knowing a psychopath that knows that they are one, but this tends to be a rare thing. Most people that claim psychopathy are far from it. Elinor Greenberg recently wrote a very good answer on Quora regarding this:
Is it recommended for individuals who believe they are psychopaths to seek professional help?
In my 50 years of experience doing psychotherapy and in the about 30 + years since I was certified as trained in the diagnosis and treatment of personality disorder, no client who initiated therapy because they believed they were a psychopath actually qualified for that diagnosis.
Who typically self-diagnosed themselves as psychopaths?
Only a few people came to therapy and told me they were psychopaths. All of them had the following characteristics:
Male
Heterosexual.
Young or Immature for their age.
Poor social skills.
Lived with their parents most of the time (either full time or in between jobs).
Were afraid of their own rage.
Had no friends.
Wanted a girlfriend but lacked the social skills and self-confidence to date.
Had never kissed a girl or woman.
Had low self-esteem.
Had very poor impulse control.
Their IQ was normal or above normal but their level of day-to-day functioning was lower than their IQ would suggest.
Did I ever have any real psychopaths come to therapy?
Yes. Only one person definitively qualified for primary psychopathy. And, I only discovered that because he agreed to take a rather lengthy but very accurate personality test, the MMPI, which had at that time 556 true/false questions and was very good at catching lies or attempts to game the test.
We both agreed that the test would be a good second opinion because there were some things about him that did not fit into any diagnostic box I understood. Our plan was to sit down and look through the computer generated results together.
The MMPI does not give actual diagnoses. It shows trends in the personality through charts and a transcript summarizing the results. My client’s charts and report essentially said: “This person scores very high on psychopathic deviancy.”
What was my client’s reaction to being called a “psychopathic deviate”?
He laughed and agreed it fit.
What was this client like and how did his traits and situation differ from my clients who thought they were psychopaths?
Like them he was a young heterosexual male with few friends, but those were the only similarities.
He was high functioning.
He was married with marital problems (his reason for seeking therapy).
He had a good job.
He appeared and acted emotionally cool—not enraged, anxious, or depressed about anything.
He did not care what other people thought of him.
He appeared to have no emotional empathy and was indifferent to other people’s feelings. For example, once someone he knew came up to him when he did not feel like talking and he pretended not to know him. He tried to persuade the person that they had mistaken him for someone else.
I saw him again many years later because he wanted me to write him a note stating he was a psychopath in order to get out of jury duty. Despite his very high intelligence (by now he was quite wealthy because he had started and sold a tech company), he did not see the potential future dangers this could create for him.
After I explained how this move could backfire, he agreed that having a psychologist put in writing that he was a psychopath was a bad idea. There were less drastic ways to deal with the minor inconvenience of jury duty.
Punchline: Individuals who think they are psychopaths should seek help for their mental health difficulties. However, that is because they are likely to have lots of problems that can be helped by appropriate psychotherapy—not because they are psychopaths.
If they actually are psychopaths, therapy might help them better predict the potential negative outcomes of their choices, but it will not affect their psychopathy.
Elinor Greenberg, PhD
Consultant on personality disorders and the author of the book: Borderline, Narcissistic, and Schizoid Adaptations.
www.elinorgreenberg.com
A relationship with a person from the first list of traits is going to be drastically different from that of an actual psychopath. There would be plenty of toxicity from the first, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t problems from the second.
Imagine a psychopath that has no idea that they are one, and they also aren’t terribly aware of the vast differences between themselves and those around them. It would make for many conversations that differed greatly from one side to the other. Both people walking away with the opposite understanding of what was said and experienced in that conversation. Many people think that they want someone like me for a friend without understanding the implications.
I’m not saying that there aren’t many positives, but it is important to know that this is a gilded version of reality if that’s the only side that you know. Hopefully, you will hear about those negatives from Jess in upcoming entries.
 | A guest post by
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I've been reading Athena's writing for years, and I always find it fascinating. Two of my three younger siblings have been diagnosed with autism, and as the oldest, my parents were likely too unaware—and dysfunctional—to investigate what was going on with me. Now in my mid-thirties, I've spent decades receiving feedback that I am neurologically different.
For some reason, my particular "offness" seems to draw people toward me. When I used to write on Quora--where I first discovered Athena--I gained over 5,000 followers and had a knack for writing viral answers. Eventually, I deleted the account because I lost interest and grew tired of the fantastical stories people kept concocting about who I was. In my personal life, I often find myself in leadership roles, surrounded by people who are curious about me.
Ironically, those who get close to me often struggle with my lack of emotional reciprocity. I march to the beat of my own drum and am largely unaffected by others' opinions—unless those opinions interfere with my goals. While this makes me intriguing from a distance, it tends to frustrate people once they know me well. Neurotypical individuals seem to value a certain level of conformity in close relationships, but that simply doesn’t resonate with me.
I’m not a psychopath, I feel emotions (including fear and sadness), but my emotions don’t seem to align with neurotypical responses, and I've noticed that they seem to be dialed down (or I am more compartmentalized and in better control of them than most). I am told over and over again that I am remarkably calm, cool, and collected—qualities people appreciate in a leader, but less so in personal relationships. I've lost count of how many times people have been upset with me for not making them "feel" cared for. Ironically, loyalty is what I value most, and I show it through actions rather than emotional displays.
For example, my current partner had a horrific childhood. He was raised on a reservation in poverty by his mother, and he was exposed to murder and violence through his father’s involvement in organized crime. Subsequently, he struggled with drugs, gangs, and violence. I liked him, because despite the dysfunction, he is fiercely loyal and people are also drawn to him.
I helped him get off drugs, stabilize mentally, and leave that world behind. He is far more emotional than I am, and the volatility from years of trauma needed to be dialed down and stabilized. I suspect I was successful, in part due to how unmoved I was by a lot of it. I didn't give him anything to react to, and when he was being unreasonable I pointed to the door. Now, he has a successful career and a very nice life. I enjoyed the challenge, and when I invest in someone, I stay invested—unless they use me or betray me.
When I am betrayed, I don’t react with anger, but I do take note. Five years ago, a coworker stabbed me in the back out of self-interest. I had been advocating for our team, using collective bargaining power. We all stood to gain, but this coworker went behind our backs to position themselves for a management role, which ruined everything. I made sure I became manager, and five years later, I ensured that coworker was laid off. It wasn't out of anger, but because I don't want untrustworthy people around me, and the balance needed to be restored.
Whatever is going on with me, interests me only in so far as I am interested in myself, but it doesn't interfere with my life and seems to help me in many ways. I doubt I will make the time and monetary commitment to find out at this point, but I do appreciate Athena's writing since it has given me a lot of personal insight.
Treat me well, and I will go to the ends of the earth for you. Treat me poorly, and I will make sure your impact on my life is neutralized in whatever way is most effective and serves me best at the time. It's not quite the same philosophy as Athena's, but it works for me.
Thanks so much, Jess and Athena!!!
Hi Jess - I'm an autistic who spent 52 years undiagnosed, and "mask" for survival. The similarities and differences I sense between my thoughts on my own experiences and w/what Athena says are fascinating to me.
Psychopaths should be part of the growing literature on neurodivergence, I think, but too many people are terrified of the word for that to get support from just about any group at this point in time.. Anyway, you might find some of the *very recent* literature on autistic "masking" or "camouflaging" interesting. Most people aren't afraid of autistics the same way at all, though there are some folks who say their EXes were autistic narcissistic psychopaths who should be feared greatly, I'm sure. ;-)