I've been reading Athena's writing for years, and I always find it fascinating. Two of my three younger siblings have been diagnosed with autism, and as the oldest, my parents were likely too unaware—and dysfunctional—to investigate what was going on with me. Now in my mid-thirties, I've spent decades receiving feedback that I am neurologically different.
For some reason, my particular "offness" seems to draw people toward me. When I used to write on Quora--where I first discovered Athena--I gained over 5,000 followers and had a knack for writing viral answers. Eventually, I deleted the account because I lost interest and grew tired of the fantastical stories people kept concocting about who I was. In my personal life, I often find myself in leadership roles, surrounded by people who are curious about me.
Ironically, those who get close to me often struggle with my lack of emotional reciprocity. I march to the beat of my own drum and am largely unaffected by others' opinions—unless those opinions interfere with my goals. While this makes me intriguing from a distance, it tends to frustrate people once they know me well. Neurotypical individuals seem to value a certain level of conformity in close relationships, but that simply doesn’t resonate with me.
I’m not a psychopath, I feel emotions (including fear and sadness), but my emotions don’t seem to align with neurotypical responses, and I've noticed that they seem to be dialed down (or I am more compartmentalized and in better control of them than most). I am told over and over again that I am remarkably calm, cool, and collected—qualities people appreciate in a leader, but less so in personal relationships. I've lost count of how many times people have been upset with me for not making them "feel" cared for. Ironically, loyalty is what I value most, and I show it through actions rather than emotional displays.
For example, my current partner had a horrific childhood. He was raised on a reservation in poverty by his mother, and he was exposed to murder and violence through his father’s involvement in organized crime. Subsequently, he struggled with drugs, gangs, and violence. I liked him, because despite the dysfunction, he is fiercely loyal and people are also drawn to him.
I helped him get off drugs, stabilize mentally, and leave that world behind. He is far more emotional than I am, and the volatility from years of trauma needed to be dialed down and stabilized. I suspect I was successful, in part due to how unmoved I was by a lot of it. I didn't give him anything to react to, and when he was being unreasonable I pointed to the door. Now, he has a successful career and a very nice life. I enjoyed the challenge, and when I invest in someone, I stay invested—unless they use me or betray me.
When I am betrayed, I don’t react with anger, but I do take note. Five years ago, a coworker stabbed me in the back out of self-interest. I had been advocating for our team, using collective bargaining power. We all stood to gain, but this coworker went behind our backs to position themselves for a management role, which ruined everything. I made sure I became manager, and five years later, I ensured that coworker was laid off. It wasn't out of anger, but because I don't want untrustworthy people around me, and the balance needed to be restored.
Whatever is going on with me, interests me only in so far as I am interested in myself, but it doesn't interfere with my life and seems to help me in many ways. I doubt I will make the time and monetary commitment to find out at this point, but I do appreciate Athena's writing since it has given me a lot of personal insight.
Treat me well, and I will go to the ends of the earth for you. Treat me poorly, and I will make sure your impact on my life is neutralized in whatever way is most effective and serves me best at the time. It's not quite the same philosophy as Athena's, but it works for me.
Hi Jess - I'm an autistic who spent 52 years undiagnosed, and "mask" for survival. The similarities and differences I sense between my thoughts on my own experiences and w/what Athena says are fascinating to me.
Psychopaths should be part of the growing literature on neurodivergence, I think, but too many people are terrified of the word for that to get support from just about any group at this point in time.. Anyway, you might find some of the *very recent* literature on autistic "masking" or "camouflaging" interesting. Most people aren't afraid of autistics the same way at all, though there are some folks who say their EXes were autistic narcissistic psychopaths who should be feared greatly, I'm sure. ;-)
I agree that people are "terrified" of the word --because it has been misunderstood for so, so long (and much of the research has only been done on criminal type behavior). Researchers should be paying more attention to Elinor and Athena.
I own I am a bit off topic here, but I feel this applies.
Oh, that just drives me mad, and I admit I am not an expert in any sense of the word. However, there are plenty of NTs that are capable of great evil. Why is psychopathy the only term used to describe that? The association of evil equals psychopathy. I have known evil and it does not just reside in the heart of a psychopath. If we were in a survival scenario, believe me when I say you'd be surprised how many people you think you know would turn on you in a heartbeat to save their own ass. I have seen it more times than I care to remember.
"Civility is an illusion. Savagery is the default state of humanity."
I think psychopathy is confused for sociopathy most of the time. After reading "The Wisdom of the Psychopath" the differences between the two became clear as day. Every once in a while you'll see someone who knows the difference and that sticks out clearly to me too.
I think the bad rap comes from a combination of the movie Psycho which conflated psychopathy with psychosis, American Psycho which conflated psychopathy with sociopathy and the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) combining psychopathy, sociopathy and ASPD all into the umbrella term ASPD.
In American Psycho, the book, at the end it is unclear whether any of what is depicted actually happened, or if it took place solely in the main character's head. This is likely why they chose "psycho" as part of the title, as it applies to both psychopathy and psychosis, despite the character not being psychopathic in the slightest.
Thank you so much for answering my question, really appreciate it! And I'm so sorry for everything you went through as a kid - I recently saw the film The Bikeriders and actually thought of you (Jess) as I watched it - if you experienced even half of what some of those guys saw, then I can't even imagine the scars it must have left, and what it must have taken to heal from that.
I agree with everything you said about a psychopath's authenticity - even though the mask is technically inauthentic, in the sense of mimicking emotions that the psychopath isn't really feeling, I actually feel like the existence of the mask has very little bearing on the overall authenticity of a psychopath, if any at all.
At the end of the day the mask is just a necessary tool for blending into a world in which they are very much in the minority, and which is entirely organised around the needs of the neurotypical majority. The main purpose of the mask, as I understand it, is simply to not constantly have to deal with the freaked out reactions of NTs every 5 minutes, which seems like a very reasonable goal to me in the circumstances.
If it was the other way around, and psychopaths made up 99% of the population, while NTs only made up 1%, I'm sure we (NTs) would have developed pretty good masks of our own, to hide our natural emotional reactions and mimic the purely logical thinking of the psychopathic world we had to live in. Either way around, developing a mask to blend in doesn't seem unreasonable, and in my view is not at all the same thing as using a mask to trick or manipulate people to one's own ends.
I think it's also important to recognise that the mask benefits NTs as well as the psychopath, even though that may not have been the main driver for developing it in the first place. If all the psychopaths in the world suddenly got up tomorrow morning and dropped the mask entirely, most NTs would no doubt find it totally unnerving and feel constantly uncomfortable without really understanding why. It may even be downright terrifying!
But I don't think the existence of the mask, or the need to blend in, really make any difference to the authenticity of a psychopath's thoughts or views or communication with the world. I completely trust and believe that Athena's thoughts as expressed in her writing are 100% honest, authentic and real - and I don't think the fact that she has to mask to get through the day without NTs going crazy at her, changes that at all. Also totally agree with what you said about her being true to herself and having integrity, and taking responsibility / holding herself accountable. It's a slightly different kind of authenticity than in the NT world maybe, but still authenticity in my book.
Don't worry, you weren't rude at all - my name was at the top of the post! I didn't feel unacknowledged at all, just happy that you answered one of my questions. Really loving hearing about Athena from a different perspective :o)
I agree with the mask not being important to someone's character. The whole world seems to function on fitting in with others by masking in some way. Your exterior should never be used to define who someone is. Actions over time are the only way to know what/ how someone is. Good people are good people, bad people are bad people and the old adage of not judging a book by its cover should apply.
Re: "The whole world seems to function on fitting in with others by masking in some way." I agree. I believe NT's also mask their true selves -- in varying degrees -- for a different purpose, or possibly a similar one. We hide things we are ashamed of, or feel guilty about. We try to present "the best version of ourselves" to the outside world. While psychopaths don't feel shame or guilt, what they mask appears to be their lack of the emotions that NT's feel. They mimic the appearance of emotions. At least, that's my impression of what Athena (and Jess) describe. In a way, this is the essence of politeness, a form of social lubrication that tries to minimize aggressive tendencies -- not always with success.
I have described it as, a neurotypical's version of the mask is the best version of themselves, or them on their best manners, and a psychopath's mask is the manufacturing of a whole person.
"If it was the other way around, and psychopaths made up 99% of the population, while NTs only made up 1%, I'm sure we (NTs) would have developed pretty good masks of our own, to hide our natural emotional reactions and mimic the purely logical thinking of the psychopathic world we had to live in."
That reminds me of that Equilibrium film. It's not a precise match, partially because it is not clear that psychopaths in general would be that invested in controlling the population to make everyone like them. But the concept is similar.
"I have laid my dreams beneath your feet, tread softly for you tread on my dreams".
If a film has Sean Bean in it and Sean Bean does not get killed. Is it still a film?
I have always found the idea of Equilibrium being representative of psychopathy to be ridiculous. Psychopaths wouldn't be involved in removing fun things. We would be bored to death. It makes no sense.
I absolutely appreciate and have experienced almost entirely what has been stated in this post. If I could have written what Jess expressed here, I would not change a word of it. It definitely took 17 (actually much longer) years for me to understand psychopathy in my partner. Neither of us knew or ever used the word psychopathy, but we did both know that something was very, very, different about the psychopath. The following paragraphs I found to be uplifting and clarifying things learned on my journey with a psychopath.
By EG:
1. He appeared and acted emotionally cool—not enraged, anxious, or depressed about anything.
2. Many people think that they want someone like me for a friend without understanding the implications.
3. Individuals who think they are psychopaths should seek help for their mental health difficulties. However, that is because they are likely to have lots of problems that can be helped by appropriate psychotherapy—not because they are psychopaths.If they actually are psychopaths, therapy might help them better predict the potential negative outcomes of their choices, but it will not affect their psychopathy.
From Jess or Athena: I know the person behind the mask and I know the person's authenticity.
I admire the freedom she has, but on the flip side, there are times I almost feel sorry for her, that she will never feel love as deeply as I think I do.
In most situations, it isn’t about doing something that is emotionally painful, but rather, we have no concept that something like that could ever be painful.
Psychopaths can make you stronger in terms of creating boundaries, not being moved by sob stories and toxic manipulations, but only if the person is capable of seeing and accepting things that may need to be changed in the way that they behave in the world.
Psychopaths lack the care about their negative traits, nor the pride in their positive ones. It simply is. We often tend to treat those around us as though they have that same understanding, and that is difficult to change.
Thank you from my heart for this post -- all of you!
People who want to be psychopaths want to be admired or feared or have control, which they lack. Not having intense emotional feelings is great, makes the mind feel very clear and focused. And having reduces fear is liberating.
So much here rings true for me and my experiences. I am reminded of the firearms journalist Col. Charles Askins who was reported to be concerned that he might be a psychopath and from reading his autobiography I think it likely that he was borderline at the very least. I personally find it odd that some events will will prompt what I identify as prey drive and I have to consciously suppress my reaction
Psychopathy is not genetic sociopathy, so to begin with, he is incorrect. Sociopathy and psychopathy are very different. Other than that, this is a very long interview, and I don't have the time to listen to all of it at the moment. If he is willing to betray who is closest to him, he's just a sh*tty person. That has nothing to do with psychopathy, just him being a garbage human being. That's a choice a person makes. Psychopathy isn't an excuse for such things.
though if someone was born with a high degree of empathy / compassion/ remorse wouldn’t they be less likely to commit bad behaviour than if they were born without these traits?
That statement reminds me in a way of some religious people I've heard, who won't accept that people can be ethical if they don't believe in (the same deity/deities that the person does.)
It's harder - and perhaps scarier - to put one's trust in another if they function in a categorically different way from oneself. "They can *say* they have strong ethics/morals/compassion, but if you can't relate internally to what they're saying... can you trust it?" - seems to be the internal problem people can have.
I've had decades of working on what may be cognitive empathy; I differ internally from (neurotypicals and others) so I've had to create cognitive models of them, admittedly always imperfect models. So I perhaps learned to trust my models more than some, and can trust those very different from me... mostly. It will never be the NT-NT meshing I suspect.
Compassion evolved to have limits in primates, and has a dark flip side of, shall we say, withdrawal of compassion? Dehumanization? Without cognitive empathy, any difference seems grounds for this withdrawal sometimes, with tragic results.
Pretty sure you need empathy to be a sadistic dirtbag. Compassion maybe but remorse you have already done bad you just feel bad that you did wrong. Lack of impulse control plus remorse is going to make for a bad life.
Many abusers stay in that cycle for a long long time; something internal builds up, they abuse, they feel remorse (and are quite capable of understanding they did wrong at that point in the cycle), but don't learn different ways of dealing with the internal difficulties. Repeats until something external stops the cycle.
That's similar imo to how paranoid people can be consciously aware they're being ridiculous, but still walk through all the steps of the paranoia. It's like the brain is driving.
"When your friend has no idea why what they just said or did is emotionally damaging, there can certain by a type of resentment that starts to form. "
My best friend is a psychopath and he says I'm his closest friend. We can spend hours just sitting and idling away on our own things as you described. When it comes to the line above, the emotionally damaging thing, I just assume he's telling me the truth and I was the one who didn't want to hear it and am lying to myself.
The most valuable aspect of his words is I know they are honest, as far as he knows. If he calls out my behavior and I get upset then I must be in a poor state of mind - that's the high level of trust I have in his words when I ordinarily would not allow myself to believe anyone else on faith. And unlike a normie who may abuse it one day or use it poorly, I sense he's unable to see it in that manner. So if he says something to me and I get enraged I watch his face - if his face looks normal and placid then I know the emotional reaction is purely from me and something's roiling in my heart that I should address. Then I'll thank him for bringing to my attention though I may steam it off a while longer. He's actually asked me to tell him if I'm steaming emotion off and about how long I think it'll be so we've worked that out too. "Yeah I'll need to digest this overnight". "Ok".
whenever i tried to imagine how a look without emotions look like, i imagined it as dull, expressionless. this is the first time i hear about intensity. interesting. as if emotions are a mechanism that puts us on autopilot, kind of zombie state. in theory, it allows us to filter out noise and in turn results in a quick reaction. in practice, emotions also leave us bruised, what makes as filter out essential info too and that will result in an inaccurate reaction.
coming back to the emotional feedback loop - we expect another person to be on autopilot mode as well as the opposite of an intense presence in a moment. @athena @jess am i close? why is this so terrifying?
@athena i can see a purpose jess serves to u - can the purpose ever wear off? if it would, what would happen w/ the loyalty?
The way you describe the look in her eyes when she takes down the mask is everything but emotionless. I wonder if it looks similar with the look people that used violence on others have in their eyes, I've seen it in people I trust and it still was chilling.
When you use the term emotionless, I think that we can get caught up in the minutia or nit picking if you will. I don't feel Athena is without emotion. It's just that many emotions that NTs feel deeply are muted, or perhaps there are deficits when it comes to psychopathy. She doesn't hang on to emotions the way many NTs do. Certain emotion may be felt or expressed, but she doesn't hold on to them. I know I can be really upset about something, crying. Her response is generally, "Ok, what do we need to do to fix it?" Just very matter of fact. No hug. No empathy. Just "what do we need to do to fix this?"
She expresses joy or happiness when her needs or desires are met. Examples of this are looking forward to Winter and the first snowfall, but that has a lot to do with our dislike of hot weather. Something we both detest. We both prefer the rain and snow. She appreciates a beautiful dress that she may want to acquire. We both enjoy gaming or watching a really good anime. But, these moments that she is enjoying remain in the moment. Once that moment passes, it's just on to the next. In other words, she can display a response when her goals are being met. So she's not entirely emotionless.
The look you are referring to was a look of "I don't want to deal with your issue right now. Whatever it is, I just don't have the patience to deal with it right now. Go away!" I can respect that. I also think you should ask her for clarification.
I have seen the look that has to do with having to do with violence, and that is a look that comes from an emotional connection to that past event. A psychopath's look it more like you're seeing that person for the first time and understanding that what you thought you knew has been shatttered.
Do you mean that when a psychopath drops the mask with someone they know well, that person suddenly realises that the person they've been interacting with, the person they thought they knew, wasn't actually the real person? And that they actually don't know the real person at all? I've never experienced this but always assumed that that's exactly what makes it so terrifying for NTs. That and the total lack of fear in a dangerous situation, which just freaks us out completely.
I suppose it depends on the reason for the drop. I thought I had addressed this here, but perhaps I haven't. I will look through my post history, if I have, I will give you the link. If I haven't, I will write that as a post.
I've been reading Athena's writing for years, and I always find it fascinating. Two of my three younger siblings have been diagnosed with autism, and as the oldest, my parents were likely too unaware—and dysfunctional—to investigate what was going on with me. Now in my mid-thirties, I've spent decades receiving feedback that I am neurologically different.
For some reason, my particular "offness" seems to draw people toward me. When I used to write on Quora--where I first discovered Athena--I gained over 5,000 followers and had a knack for writing viral answers. Eventually, I deleted the account because I lost interest and grew tired of the fantastical stories people kept concocting about who I was. In my personal life, I often find myself in leadership roles, surrounded by people who are curious about me.
Ironically, those who get close to me often struggle with my lack of emotional reciprocity. I march to the beat of my own drum and am largely unaffected by others' opinions—unless those opinions interfere with my goals. While this makes me intriguing from a distance, it tends to frustrate people once they know me well. Neurotypical individuals seem to value a certain level of conformity in close relationships, but that simply doesn’t resonate with me.
I’m not a psychopath, I feel emotions (including fear and sadness), but my emotions don’t seem to align with neurotypical responses, and I've noticed that they seem to be dialed down (or I am more compartmentalized and in better control of them than most). I am told over and over again that I am remarkably calm, cool, and collected—qualities people appreciate in a leader, but less so in personal relationships. I've lost count of how many times people have been upset with me for not making them "feel" cared for. Ironically, loyalty is what I value most, and I show it through actions rather than emotional displays.
For example, my current partner had a horrific childhood. He was raised on a reservation in poverty by his mother, and he was exposed to murder and violence through his father’s involvement in organized crime. Subsequently, he struggled with drugs, gangs, and violence. I liked him, because despite the dysfunction, he is fiercely loyal and people are also drawn to him.
I helped him get off drugs, stabilize mentally, and leave that world behind. He is far more emotional than I am, and the volatility from years of trauma needed to be dialed down and stabilized. I suspect I was successful, in part due to how unmoved I was by a lot of it. I didn't give him anything to react to, and when he was being unreasonable I pointed to the door. Now, he has a successful career and a very nice life. I enjoyed the challenge, and when I invest in someone, I stay invested—unless they use me or betray me.
When I am betrayed, I don’t react with anger, but I do take note. Five years ago, a coworker stabbed me in the back out of self-interest. I had been advocating for our team, using collective bargaining power. We all stood to gain, but this coworker went behind our backs to position themselves for a management role, which ruined everything. I made sure I became manager, and five years later, I ensured that coworker was laid off. It wasn't out of anger, but because I don't want untrustworthy people around me, and the balance needed to be restored.
Whatever is going on with me, interests me only in so far as I am interested in myself, but it doesn't interfere with my life and seems to help me in many ways. I doubt I will make the time and monetary commitment to find out at this point, but I do appreciate Athena's writing since it has given me a lot of personal insight.
Treat me well, and I will go to the ends of the earth for you. Treat me poorly, and I will make sure your impact on my life is neutralized in whatever way is most effective and serves me best at the time. It's not quite the same philosophy as Athena's, but it works for me.
I have a similar saying that I pilfered from the Hell's Angels:
Treat me well, and I'll treat you better
Treat me poorly, and I'll treat you worse.
Thanks so much, Jess and Athena!!!
Hi Jess - I'm an autistic who spent 52 years undiagnosed, and "mask" for survival. The similarities and differences I sense between my thoughts on my own experiences and w/what Athena says are fascinating to me.
Psychopaths should be part of the growing literature on neurodivergence, I think, but too many people are terrified of the word for that to get support from just about any group at this point in time.. Anyway, you might find some of the *very recent* literature on autistic "masking" or "camouflaging" interesting. Most people aren't afraid of autistics the same way at all, though there are some folks who say their EXes were autistic narcissistic psychopaths who should be feared greatly, I'm sure. ;-)
I find the need to pile on conditions when it is clear that the person has no idea what any of those conditions are, is such strange behavior.
I agree that people are "terrified" of the word --because it has been misunderstood for so, so long (and much of the research has only been done on criminal type behavior). Researchers should be paying more attention to Elinor and Athena.
It would conflict with their grant proposals.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. So true.
I own I am a bit off topic here, but I feel this applies.
Oh, that just drives me mad, and I admit I am not an expert in any sense of the word. However, there are plenty of NTs that are capable of great evil. Why is psychopathy the only term used to describe that? The association of evil equals psychopathy. I have known evil and it does not just reside in the heart of a psychopath. If we were in a survival scenario, believe me when I say you'd be surprised how many people you think you know would turn on you in a heartbeat to save their own ass. I have seen it more times than I care to remember.
"Civility is an illusion. Savagery is the default state of humanity."
Quinlan - The Strain
I think psychopathy is confused for sociopathy most of the time. After reading "The Wisdom of the Psychopath" the differences between the two became clear as day. Every once in a while you'll see someone who knows the difference and that sticks out clearly to me too.
I think the bad rap comes from a combination of the movie Psycho which conflated psychopathy with psychosis, American Psycho which conflated psychopathy with sociopathy and the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) combining psychopathy, sociopathy and ASPD all into the umbrella term ASPD.
In American Psycho, the book, at the end it is unclear whether any of what is depicted actually happened, or if it took place solely in the main character's head. This is likely why they chose "psycho" as part of the title, as it applies to both psychopathy and psychosis, despite the character not being psychopathic in the slightest.
Yeah, I might have said this before but the Milgram experiment proved that 80% of people will kill someone if directed to do so by an authority.
Thank you so much for answering my question, really appreciate it! And I'm so sorry for everything you went through as a kid - I recently saw the film The Bikeriders and actually thought of you (Jess) as I watched it - if you experienced even half of what some of those guys saw, then I can't even imagine the scars it must have left, and what it must have taken to heal from that.
I agree with everything you said about a psychopath's authenticity - even though the mask is technically inauthentic, in the sense of mimicking emotions that the psychopath isn't really feeling, I actually feel like the existence of the mask has very little bearing on the overall authenticity of a psychopath, if any at all.
At the end of the day the mask is just a necessary tool for blending into a world in which they are very much in the minority, and which is entirely organised around the needs of the neurotypical majority. The main purpose of the mask, as I understand it, is simply to not constantly have to deal with the freaked out reactions of NTs every 5 minutes, which seems like a very reasonable goal to me in the circumstances.
If it was the other way around, and psychopaths made up 99% of the population, while NTs only made up 1%, I'm sure we (NTs) would have developed pretty good masks of our own, to hide our natural emotional reactions and mimic the purely logical thinking of the psychopathic world we had to live in. Either way around, developing a mask to blend in doesn't seem unreasonable, and in my view is not at all the same thing as using a mask to trick or manipulate people to one's own ends.
I think it's also important to recognise that the mask benefits NTs as well as the psychopath, even though that may not have been the main driver for developing it in the first place. If all the psychopaths in the world suddenly got up tomorrow morning and dropped the mask entirely, most NTs would no doubt find it totally unnerving and feel constantly uncomfortable without really understanding why. It may even be downright terrifying!
But I don't think the existence of the mask, or the need to blend in, really make any difference to the authenticity of a psychopath's thoughts or views or communication with the world. I completely trust and believe that Athena's thoughts as expressed in her writing are 100% honest, authentic and real - and I don't think the fact that she has to mask to get through the day without NTs going crazy at her, changes that at all. Also totally agree with what you said about her being true to herself and having integrity, and taking responsibility / holding herself accountable. It's a slightly different kind of authenticity than in the NT world maybe, but still authenticity in my book.
If we all decided to drop the mask, I am pretty sure there would be a concerted effort for our elimination.
Jen,
Thank you! And please, forgive my rudeness for failing to acknowledge you properly. I appreciate your question and the opportunity to answer.
Don't worry, you weren't rude at all - my name was at the top of the post! I didn't feel unacknowledged at all, just happy that you answered one of my questions. Really loving hearing about Athena from a different perspective :o)
I agree with the mask not being important to someone's character. The whole world seems to function on fitting in with others by masking in some way. Your exterior should never be used to define who someone is. Actions over time are the only way to know what/ how someone is. Good people are good people, bad people are bad people and the old adage of not judging a book by its cover should apply.
Re: "The whole world seems to function on fitting in with others by masking in some way." I agree. I believe NT's also mask their true selves -- in varying degrees -- for a different purpose, or possibly a similar one. We hide things we are ashamed of, or feel guilty about. We try to present "the best version of ourselves" to the outside world. While psychopaths don't feel shame or guilt, what they mask appears to be their lack of the emotions that NT's feel. They mimic the appearance of emotions. At least, that's my impression of what Athena (and Jess) describe. In a way, this is the essence of politeness, a form of social lubrication that tries to minimize aggressive tendencies -- not always with success.
I have described it as, a neurotypical's version of the mask is the best version of themselves, or them on their best manners, and a psychopath's mask is the manufacturing of a whole person.
Exactly
"If it was the other way around, and psychopaths made up 99% of the population, while NTs only made up 1%, I'm sure we (NTs) would have developed pretty good masks of our own, to hide our natural emotional reactions and mimic the purely logical thinking of the psychopathic world we had to live in."
That reminds me of that Equilibrium film. It's not a precise match, partially because it is not clear that psychopaths in general would be that invested in controlling the population to make everyone like them. But the concept is similar.
"I have laid my dreams beneath your feet, tread softly for you tread on my dreams".
If a film has Sean Bean in it and Sean Bean does not get killed. Is it still a film?
I have always found the idea of Equilibrium being representative of psychopathy to be ridiculous. Psychopaths wouldn't be involved in removing fun things. We would be bored to death. It makes no sense.
I absolutely appreciate and have experienced almost entirely what has been stated in this post. If I could have written what Jess expressed here, I would not change a word of it. It definitely took 17 (actually much longer) years for me to understand psychopathy in my partner. Neither of us knew or ever used the word psychopathy, but we did both know that something was very, very, different about the psychopath. The following paragraphs I found to be uplifting and clarifying things learned on my journey with a psychopath.
By EG:
1. He appeared and acted emotionally cool—not enraged, anxious, or depressed about anything.
2. Many people think that they want someone like me for a friend without understanding the implications.
3. Individuals who think they are psychopaths should seek help for their mental health difficulties. However, that is because they are likely to have lots of problems that can be helped by appropriate psychotherapy—not because they are psychopaths.If they actually are psychopaths, therapy might help them better predict the potential negative outcomes of their choices, but it will not affect their psychopathy.
From Jess or Athena: I know the person behind the mask and I know the person's authenticity.
I admire the freedom she has, but on the flip side, there are times I almost feel sorry for her, that she will never feel love as deeply as I think I do.
In most situations, it isn’t about doing something that is emotionally painful, but rather, we have no concept that something like that could ever be painful.
Psychopaths can make you stronger in terms of creating boundaries, not being moved by sob stories and toxic manipulations, but only if the person is capable of seeing and accepting things that may need to be changed in the way that they behave in the world.
Psychopaths lack the care about their negative traits, nor the pride in their positive ones. It simply is. We often tend to treat those around us as though they have that same understanding, and that is difficult to change.
Thank you from my heart for this post -- all of you!
Thank you, NB
People who want to be psychopaths want to be admired or feared or have control, which they lack. Not having intense emotional feelings is great, makes the mind feel very clear and focused. And having reduces fear is liberating.
Yes, I agree
How do you know? :)
You never had those. I did and I took some pills that reduced the intensity of the emotions.
I was agreeing about the reasons people tend to want to be psychopaths to be feared or have control.
I thought EB was kind in how she dealt with her client that was a psychopath as well.
I think NB was speaking about her partner.
EG was the one I was talking about. Elinor Greenberg I assume. I did have of each initial there.
Yes, yes you did
So much here rings true for me and my experiences. I am reminded of the firearms journalist Col. Charles Askins who was reported to be concerned that he might be a psychopath and from reading his autobiography I think it likely that he was borderline at the very least. I personally find it odd that some events will will prompt what I identify as prey drive and I have to consciously suppress my reaction
Here’s an interview with a psychopath you and others may be interested in:
https://youtu.be/5yxHcVeBumQ?si=IGXSlwFgOxv9Ofnn
He’s open about the fact he’d be willing to betray the closet person to him if it benefits him,
and isn’t concerned with being loyal in general.
What proportion of psychopaths are like the one in this interview in your view?
Psychopathy is not genetic sociopathy, so to begin with, he is incorrect. Sociopathy and psychopathy are very different. Other than that, this is a very long interview, and I don't have the time to listen to all of it at the moment. If he is willing to betray who is closest to him, he's just a sh*tty person. That has nothing to do with psychopathy, just him being a garbage human being. That's a choice a person makes. Psychopathy isn't an excuse for such things.
Get where you’re coming from,
though if someone was born with a high degree of empathy / compassion/ remorse wouldn’t they be less likely to commit bad behaviour than if they were born without these traits?
Not at all. I have written several posts about the rather massive flaws of emotional empathy. Here is one of the posts:
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/lack-of-empathy-means-nothing
That statement reminds me in a way of some religious people I've heard, who won't accept that people can be ethical if they don't believe in (the same deity/deities that the person does.)
It's harder - and perhaps scarier - to put one's trust in another if they function in a categorically different way from oneself. "They can *say* they have strong ethics/morals/compassion, but if you can't relate internally to what they're saying... can you trust it?" - seems to be the internal problem people can have.
I've had decades of working on what may be cognitive empathy; I differ internally from (neurotypicals and others) so I've had to create cognitive models of them, admittedly always imperfect models. So I perhaps learned to trust my models more than some, and can trust those very different from me... mostly. It will never be the NT-NT meshing I suspect.
Compassion evolved to have limits in primates, and has a dark flip side of, shall we say, withdrawal of compassion? Dehumanization? Without cognitive empathy, any difference seems grounds for this withdrawal sometimes, with tragic results.
Cognitive empathy has limits too of course.
Well stated, Yvonne
Pretty sure you need empathy to be a sadistic dirtbag. Compassion maybe but remorse you have already done bad you just feel bad that you did wrong. Lack of impulse control plus remorse is going to make for a bad life.
Exactly true
Many abusers stay in that cycle for a long long time; something internal builds up, they abuse, they feel remorse (and are quite capable of understanding they did wrong at that point in the cycle), but don't learn different ways of dealing with the internal difficulties. Repeats until something external stops the cycle.
That's similar imo to how paranoid people can be consciously aware they're being ridiculous, but still walk through all the steps of the paranoia. It's like the brain is driving.
I can imagine that feels like being stuck in an emotional warzone.
"When your friend has no idea why what they just said or did is emotionally damaging, there can certain by a type of resentment that starts to form. "
My best friend is a psychopath and he says I'm his closest friend. We can spend hours just sitting and idling away on our own things as you described. When it comes to the line above, the emotionally damaging thing, I just assume he's telling me the truth and I was the one who didn't want to hear it and am lying to myself.
The most valuable aspect of his words is I know they are honest, as far as he knows. If he calls out my behavior and I get upset then I must be in a poor state of mind - that's the high level of trust I have in his words when I ordinarily would not allow myself to believe anyone else on faith. And unlike a normie who may abuse it one day or use it poorly, I sense he's unable to see it in that manner. So if he says something to me and I get enraged I watch his face - if his face looks normal and placid then I know the emotional reaction is purely from me and something's roiling in my heart that I should address. Then I'll thank him for bringing to my attention though I may steam it off a while longer. He's actually asked me to tell him if I'm steaming emotion off and about how long I think it'll be so we've worked that out too. "Yeah I'll need to digest this overnight". "Ok".
You sound like someone that has the right mentality to handle a friendship with a psychopath. Many people, not so much.
whenever i tried to imagine how a look without emotions look like, i imagined it as dull, expressionless. this is the first time i hear about intensity. interesting. as if emotions are a mechanism that puts us on autopilot, kind of zombie state. in theory, it allows us to filter out noise and in turn results in a quick reaction. in practice, emotions also leave us bruised, what makes as filter out essential info too and that will result in an inaccurate reaction.
coming back to the emotional feedback loop - we expect another person to be on autopilot mode as well as the opposite of an intense presence in a moment. @athena @jess am i close? why is this so terrifying?
@athena i can see a purpose jess serves to u - can the purpose ever wear off? if it would, what would happen w/ the loyalty?
@jess what took u so long to do that pasta salad?
I'm invested in Jess. That is the purpose.
i don‘t get this. i expected it to be the other way around.
Have you read my post on investment?
most likely but let me read it again. which one in particular you have in mind?
Sure, it's here:
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/psychopathy-and-love
The way you describe the look in her eyes when she takes down the mask is everything but emotionless. I wonder if it looks similar with the look people that used violence on others have in their eyes, I've seen it in people I trust and it still was chilling.
When you use the term emotionless, I think that we can get caught up in the minutia or nit picking if you will. I don't feel Athena is without emotion. It's just that many emotions that NTs feel deeply are muted, or perhaps there are deficits when it comes to psychopathy. She doesn't hang on to emotions the way many NTs do. Certain emotion may be felt or expressed, but she doesn't hold on to them. I know I can be really upset about something, crying. Her response is generally, "Ok, what do we need to do to fix it?" Just very matter of fact. No hug. No empathy. Just "what do we need to do to fix this?"
She expresses joy or happiness when her needs or desires are met. Examples of this are looking forward to Winter and the first snowfall, but that has a lot to do with our dislike of hot weather. Something we both detest. We both prefer the rain and snow. She appreciates a beautiful dress that she may want to acquire. We both enjoy gaming or watching a really good anime. But, these moments that she is enjoying remain in the moment. Once that moment passes, it's just on to the next. In other words, she can display a response when her goals are being met. So she's not entirely emotionless.
The look you are referring to was a look of "I don't want to deal with your issue right now. Whatever it is, I just don't have the patience to deal with it right now. Go away!" I can respect that. I also think you should ask her for clarification.
I have seen the look that has to do with having to do with violence, and that is a look that comes from an emotional connection to that past event. A psychopath's look it more like you're seeing that person for the first time and understanding that what you thought you knew has been shatttered.
Do you mean that when a psychopath drops the mask with someone they know well, that person suddenly realises that the person they've been interacting with, the person they thought they knew, wasn't actually the real person? And that they actually don't know the real person at all? I've never experienced this but always assumed that that's exactly what makes it so terrifying for NTs. That and the total lack of fear in a dangerous situation, which just freaks us out completely.
I suppose it depends on the reason for the drop. I thought I had addressed this here, but perhaps I haven't. I will look through my post history, if I have, I will give you the link. If I haven't, I will write that as a post.