I have ADHD and it's interesting seeing the similarities and differences with psychopathy from your writing. It almost seems to me that if you take the boredom and impulsivity aspects of psychopathy, but instead combine them with neurotypical emotional spectrum... and you get ADHD, or something close. Though it's not exactly "neurotypical" emotions with ADHD because sometimes they can be all over the place (hello impulse control issues) and at other times can seem pretty absent, but not because of lack of innate capacity for some type or intensity of emotion, rather because inattention means the stimulus that would otherwise cause the emotion may not even register on one's radar.
So I quite relate to a lot of what you describe about boredom, also to not missing people and usually not initiating interactions myself (unless I do so because I'm bored, huh), but otherwise have pretty "normal" capacity for stuff fear, shame, "chemical" love etc... albeit sometimes presenting in quirky ways.
It is also interesting from a genetics perspective. From what I've read, both psychopathy and ADHD relate to dopamine receptors polymorphisms and the COMT val allele, but oxytocin is "intact" with ADHD.
It is interesting. I have had people ask me about the overlap between ADD and psychopathy, but it isn't an answer I can provide as I haven't seen any studies directly addressing it. There are plenty that look at ADD in people with ASPD, but none with brain imaging confirmed psychopathy and if there are similarities with ADD or a possibly occasional comorbidity.
It would be interesting to see more studies on that, indeed. If I am to make a hypothesis, I would expect atypical funcuional connectivity between attentional networks in both, but no sturctural abnormalities of the amygdala in ADHD unlike in psychopathy.
I think the cohort is slightly better than most, though it doesn't discuss age, history of substance abuse, or selection criteria. They also included those that incurred head injuries which negates any possible usable data. That's unfortunate.
I have the sensation that some dumb scientist might be mistaken some cases of psychopathy as other Neurodevelopmental Disorders. And I am beggining to think that Psychopathy isn't a personality disorder, rather is a Neurodevelopmental Disorder. But due to poor research on that field, even mental health professionals mistake ASPD with Psychopathy or even NPD with Psychopathy.
Ugh, every way anyone differs from NTs is discussed pejoratively... the NTs don't seem to easily note their own difficulty with accepting difference... let's study it, label it as a disorder...
I don't know if all autistics experience life this way, but I think I tend towards finding something interesting in just about anything - except stuff that (emotionally) annoys me. My brain seems to volunteer connections between all sorts of ideas, events, etc., and I can notice interesting details that take me down almost infinite rabbit holes - that all has both positive and negative aspects. So - opposite problem from what I understand Athena to be saying, sometimes.
Oh yeah, I have heard about cerebellum abnormalities in ADHD, also dyspraxia, but didn't know about that in autism. What the article you linked mentions about the cerebellum and timing functions stood out to me, I would say that time agnosia is one of the most frustrating aspects of ADHD for me (not in the diagnostic criteria but, AFAIK, very common).
What you describe in your last paragraph is pretty interesting. I always had that impression that how "high functioning" someone's autism is perceived to be is a function of how monetizable the rabbit hole they happened to go down is. Have no ASD myself though, just some traits.
As for me, I can be interested in just about anything for the sake of checking it out and seeing what's the deal with it. Then with a few things I'd obsess... for, say, a few days, weeks, months max. And then one day I'd randomly drop the topic/activity like it's never been a thing. And on to the next. Great for learning the skillset for jobs, sucky for sticking around once I've gotten reasonably good.
There is now also discussion of "AuDHD" online, among young people diagnosed with both. Unfortunately the "experts" formerly believed that having either ADHD or autism precluded having the other; that seems to have been dropped by at least some.
For some of us who have multiple rabbit holes and who can have certain attention issues but also got an autism diagnosis, this might make sense. I can't totally relate to the single-rabbit-hole life.
It's not like we all get actual brain scans though, so we - and our clinicians, if we have such - are mostly just comparing subjective stuff to lists written by committees of people with lots of letters after their names, sitting in really nice rooms.
Oh yes, for all its flaws, DSM-5 at least adressed that "little" glaring issue.
I have two friends with the AuDHD combo and one of them has also referred to the "multiple rabbit holes" thing. Interestingly, I think we're similar in multiple way but they both give off a more mellow and steady vibe than myself.
As for your take on the diagnostic methods, I very much agree. And, when it comes the way those things are even defined, in the spirit of Athena often calling the DSM an insurance reimbursement manual, let me drop this: https://ppw.kuleuven.be/okp/_pdf/Haslam2012CVDIP.pdf
"This review indicates that most latent variables of interest to psychiatrists and personality and clinical psychologists are dimensional, and that many influential taxonic findings of early taxometric research are likely to be spurious."
You know, the way you describe your boon companion, boredom - is intriguingly similar to how many people describe their experience with having ADHD; its mounting presence disrupts attention, which interferes with interest, with scatters desire, which undermines action oriented planning.
It's the looming antithesis of focus - its dark twin and inextricable arch nemesis, if you will. It can certainly be a handicap, but handicaps can be most valuable as training weights.
Getting used to construtively deal with its influence can indeed stoke all kinds of adventures, insights, creative endeavours and interesting experiences. As such, boredom can well be an aquired taste, and a catalyst. A springboard, rather than a pitfall.
I think it is always a good idea to figure out how to make your unique wiring work for you instead of against. If how you think is perceived as an enemy, then it certainly will be. If it is perceived as an enabler, it certainly will be. If it is perceived as an ally, then it certainly will be,.
Oh yes indeed, our perceptions carry weight upon ourselves. This is all taking me back to the Innner Game:
“Focus is not achieved by staring hard at something. It is not trying to force focus, nor does it mean thinking hard about something. Natural focus occurs when the mind is interested. When this occurs, the mind is drawn irresistibly toward the object (or subject) of interest. It is effortless and relaxed, not tense and overly controlled.”
“the inner game. This is the game that takes place in the mind of the player, and it is played against such obstacles as lapses in concentration, nervousness, self-doubt and self-condemnation. In short, it is played to overcome all habits of mind which inhibit excellence in performance.”
― W. Timothy Gallwey, The Inner Game of Tennis: The Classic Guide to the Mental Side of Peak Performance
“I also agree that predictable and repetitive things are boring, but that is true for everyone.”
It is interesting that you say this, because I quite enjoy predictable and repetitive things as an autistic person. I consume the same media (books, music, films) repeatedly, I eat the same meals in the exact same way over and over again. Eating new foods is difficult for me, and so I do not eat very often. When I do, it is a meal I’ve already eaten, even though I do enjoy cooking and learning new recipes.
I don’t enjoy the unpredictable, but I can handle it because I have to handle it. Life is unpredictable and there is no way of living but accepting that. Denial, I suppose, but denial has never made very much sense to me. It is a feeling I cannot relate to in the slightest. Still, I try to establish routine and predictability in my life where it is reasonable.
Mind you, I can certainly become bored and do find myself in this state frequently, but not necessarily due to the same reasons. Predictability and repetition have never bothered me, I quite enjoy them. This ‘flow’ state that is mentioned reminds me that when I am fixated on something I find interesting (usually something I am already extremely knowledgeable about or familiar with)—which happens frequently—I can continue to engage with it for a very long time. People are often surprised that the things I have been been actively interested in all my life, things that I know like the back of my hand—can still interest and excite me.
I enjoy experiencing new things, new activities and experiences—it is very fun and stimulating. However, I try to ensure that these new experiences are paired with some sense of routine or familiarity to ensure they do not become *over*stimulating.
I dislike conversation that I do not find interesting. I can discuss a wide variety of topics, and can provide on the spot lectures for a few select topics, should an individual have enough self-loathing to agree to that. Small talk, and many other ‘polite’ social expectations are strange to me. I find them dull. I’d rather discuss something the both of us actually care about.
I have no trouble with sitting still as a statue and doing nothing in many circumstances where people try to entertain themselves. Waiting rooms, for example. I notice that everybody uses their phones. I find that I can simply sit there for hours and allow my mind to entertain itself. Watching the people around me can also be far more interesting than anything else sometimes, but I am perfectly fine without that too.
As a whole, I would much rather be under-stimulated than overstimulated. Sensory overstimulation is a very painful experience that is difficult to describe. When I experience it I feel overwhelmed, irritable, itchy, like I am suffocating, and every nerve in my body feels tender and raw to the touch. ‘Neurological waterboarding’ as I’ve called it. It feels as though my brain is being flooded with too much information all at once without being able to process it (which is what it is), so any further sensory input is painful. It is why I avoid parties, clubs, discos, or anything of the sort. I’d rather sit silently in a dark room—which I actually do sometimes.
Thanks for the insightful and interesting post. "Neurological Waterboarding" explains exactly.
Here is an idea:
I don't speak the native language where I stay most. This frees me to do anything I want. And it protects in ways not immediately obvious.
Most people talk about the limitations: However, for the bit of extra time needed to conduct a very small number of business transactions, you win peace and serenity all around.
In a way you do this already: No phone, no parties, etc. Maybe I take it to the extreme, yet I have so much freedom and contentment of my life.
Concerning “predictability of life” I would even go so far as to say that a life too unpredictable scares the human being. That idea is not from me; it is what we hear often in the radio and read in magazines nowadays here in Germany as we try to find an answer to the phenomenon why right-wing populist or extremist parties are coming up very strongly not only in Germany but also other European countries. People want to have simple solutions to very complex issues - because everything unsecure is scaring them.
A little off topic, but that is what comes to mind when I read your post.
Hi Athena. So when you cook, you also think about how to create poisons like the good psychopath that you are, right? Joking aside, thank you for your article it helps a lot, like everything you write, to set the record straight psychopathy and psychopaths.
I wonder if skill retention is a psychopath attribute. The section about flow states reminds me of the effort I'd put into developing various skills from shooting to driving to martial arts. At some point I'd master a skill but then not practice anywhere near what the coaches and instructors recommend yet I could maintain high levels without a lot of effort. A good example was back when I had to renew my CCW permit and I honestly couldn't tell you how long it'd been since I'd fired a shot but the instructor told me to stop before the required 10 rounds because I was making a single ragged hole in the target. It was easy, not at all a challenging course of fire
I think that there is something to be said for the streamlined learning that can happen when there is a fundamental lack of doubt in self, no fear of failure, and no issues with trying new things. Also, as those things are physically practiced things, not events that need to be recalled, there are more aspects of the brain that are concentrating on recording the memory.
You know.... I've been experiencing similar effects while improving my videogame skills. Sometimes I'll spend hours stuck in a challenging section while focusing on just ignoring the frustration, only to randomly lose my focus and find myself breezing through the whole thing.
It's as if sometimes the mind and emotions get out of the way of the body's reflexes, procedural memory takes over, and the body just goes through the motions unemcumbered. I do suppose it could be more of a effortless effort zen-in-the-art-of-archery type thhing. It indeed might be something the psychopathic mind could be naturally good at, due to their lower to none emotional reactiveness.
I have seen this with other people as well with videogames. Often I suggest when they hit that wall of frustration to come back to it the next day and they usually find it far easier to get through that section.
But do you not do some activity to even temporarily relieve yourself of boredom or to distract yourself from it? Do you not sublimate/channel that energy into some activity or activities?
What happens with romantic relationships when familiarity sets in and you fully understand the specific idiosyncrasies of a partner? When you feel that you can accurately anticipate how they would react in a variety of situations, do romantic partners then feel boring?
No, I would rather know what to expect from a person. Psychopaths cannot feel trust, so trust is a cognitive choice that is made based on a person's actions being consistent with their word over a long period of time. If a person does not meet that standard they will never be granted trust, and worthiness of trust is required for my partners.
Interesting. I have deep defenses to boredom which may be some cognitive drive or other. Some philosopher, who wrote a book titled "Signs and Semiotic", defines aesthetic merit as a tension between the created and the uncreated. That resonated with me. I knew from my own poor efforts at poetry that the poet doesn't tell all, leaving much to the reader's imagination. I know that I can find a good vantage point in the Brooks Range and observe, much like the flock guardian dogs who were once my companions observed. And from that I was free of boredom with the mental exercise of discovery of what would happen next, like the surprised look on a Dall ram's face when he rounded a knoll and found himself face to face with my camera. I much prefer the wilderness for my recharges of wanting to do the things that keep me occupied.
And your rant clarified why I enjoyed my main boredom avoidance. When wilderness is not readily accessible there are always books of poetry or visits to an art gallery in the off hours or delving into the mathematics of infinite dimensional vector spaces and essential singularities, or listening/viewing Sami Jojlks.
Finding myself bored a lot of the time at the moment. I've been trying new things and they're interesting for a while... But then it's hard to keep interest. I don't watch TV and can only watch films every so often as I find it too predictable watching.
I'm hoping that I don't have to keep changing jobs or houses!!
Athena, you say that nothing in school has been interesting to you. And that you instead of listening to the school stuff were reading all the time. I find it interesting that nothing there could randomly arouse your attention and I wonder what you read then. The fact that you were reading tells us that there must have been something you were interested in. I would very much like to hear what it was that was not as boring as all the school stuff. Thank you.
Yes, you don’t recall it that way. But I think many people wouldn’t know what they read when they were fifteen.
I even couldn’t recall what I had read the day before for homework, when we read novels or plays in English or German. Only when my comrades began to summarize it, it came to my mind again. Piece by piece I could remember, and I always thought that phenomenon a bit strange.
I would like to read a blog from you on how you memorize things. I can imagine it differs much since you lack the emotional connection / connotation of things that happen to you. I would also be delighted if you posted a link to Quora, where you perhaps did already make a post on that topic.
Thanks for the interesting read as always, dear Athena.
Two things that came up while reading it:
When you say you never experienced that someone could have control over you - then did you never sit in some boring meeting you had to attend, with people talking about their emotional involvements in whatever, complaining about xyz, being struggled deeply in some unrelatable anxiousness - and you having a flight impulse because they are robbing your precious lifetime?
I think of myself as a very autonomous person (I assume you are similar autonomous) but sometimes I have to spend time in circumstances that have control over me (said meetings), that I can not just escape from. I wonder how you are coping such situations.
And second: as you talked about that jail cell around your room that luckily has not been there: I wonder what I would think about the child who lived in that room if your child-room would have been shown to me. I wonder if it looked differently than other child-rooms.
No idea. I didn't pay attention to my friends rooms. I know that my room differed when I was a teenager though. No posters of things teens liked, or anything like that. I lacked any of the "insert popular trend here" items around my room, I liked what I liked and I know it didn't align with others because it was mentioned to me by others.
Excuse me, does “check out” mean that you leave the meeting physically? Or you quit only with your mind?
Not being enthusiastic about the same bands or popular trends can make the passing with the peers very difficult. That was - in my life - the point where it was first becoming very clear that there was a big not-belonging. To their joys, fears, passions. To them as a group.
I just got your most recent post. I'm commenting here because while I suppose I could sign up for the free trial, I already know I'll have to cancel it. So, it appears I won't be able to read your posts anymore, which is a shame, because I find them edifying. But I am not able to subscribe to anything more than that one magazine to which I already subscribe. Not given how high expenses are where I live, and how much money I (don't) have coming in.
My regular posts will still be available, the paid subscription content it a bonus. You won't be missing anything that you have already gotten used to.
I have ADHD and it's interesting seeing the similarities and differences with psychopathy from your writing. It almost seems to me that if you take the boredom and impulsivity aspects of psychopathy, but instead combine them with neurotypical emotional spectrum... and you get ADHD, or something close. Though it's not exactly "neurotypical" emotions with ADHD because sometimes they can be all over the place (hello impulse control issues) and at other times can seem pretty absent, but not because of lack of innate capacity for some type or intensity of emotion, rather because inattention means the stimulus that would otherwise cause the emotion may not even register on one's radar.
So I quite relate to a lot of what you describe about boredom, also to not missing people and usually not initiating interactions myself (unless I do so because I'm bored, huh), but otherwise have pretty "normal" capacity for stuff fear, shame, "chemical" love etc... albeit sometimes presenting in quirky ways.
It is also interesting from a genetics perspective. From what I've read, both psychopathy and ADHD relate to dopamine receptors polymorphisms and the COMT val allele, but oxytocin is "intact" with ADHD.
It is interesting. I have had people ask me about the overlap between ADD and psychopathy, but it isn't an answer I can provide as I haven't seen any studies directly addressing it. There are plenty that look at ADD in people with ASPD, but none with brain imaging confirmed psychopathy and if there are similarities with ADD or a possibly occasional comorbidity.
It would be interesting to see more studies on that, indeed. If I am to make a hypothesis, I would expect atypical funcuional connectivity between attentional networks in both, but no sturctural abnormalities of the amygdala in ADHD unlike in psychopathy.
This actually made me wonder so, of course, I googled, and stumbled upon this recent article from 2023, interesting stuff (of course, it's a prison sample, but what can you do..) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166432823002887.
I think the cohort is slightly better than most, though it doesn't discuss age, history of substance abuse, or selection criteria. They also included those that incurred head injuries which negates any possible usable data. That's unfortunate.
I have the sensation that some dumb scientist might be mistaken some cases of psychopathy as other Neurodevelopmental Disorders. And I am beggining to think that Psychopathy isn't a personality disorder, rather is a Neurodevelopmental Disorder. But due to poor research on that field, even mental health professionals mistake ASPD with Psychopathy or even NPD with Psychopathy.
It's 3:50 am here and I read what I wrote and I have a lot of typos. Well, I assume you will understand just fine what I tried to say.
Indeed I did
I also just found this one that mentions a tiny bit about psychopathy and the cerebellum:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7016047/
Ugh, every way anyone differs from NTs is discussed pejoratively... the NTs don't seem to easily note their own difficulty with accepting difference... let's study it, label it as a disorder...
I don't know if all autistics experience life this way, but I think I tend towards finding something interesting in just about anything - except stuff that (emotionally) annoys me. My brain seems to volunteer connections between all sorts of ideas, events, etc., and I can notice interesting details that take me down almost infinite rabbit holes - that all has both positive and negative aspects. So - opposite problem from what I understand Athena to be saying, sometimes.
Oh yeah, I have heard about cerebellum abnormalities in ADHD, also dyspraxia, but didn't know about that in autism. What the article you linked mentions about the cerebellum and timing functions stood out to me, I would say that time agnosia is one of the most frustrating aspects of ADHD for me (not in the diagnostic criteria but, AFAIK, very common).
What you describe in your last paragraph is pretty interesting. I always had that impression that how "high functioning" someone's autism is perceived to be is a function of how monetizable the rabbit hole they happened to go down is. Have no ASD myself though, just some traits.
As for me, I can be interested in just about anything for the sake of checking it out and seeing what's the deal with it. Then with a few things I'd obsess... for, say, a few days, weeks, months max. And then one day I'd randomly drop the topic/activity like it's never been a thing. And on to the next. Great for learning the skillset for jobs, sucky for sticking around once I've gotten reasonably good.
There is now also discussion of "AuDHD" online, among young people diagnosed with both. Unfortunately the "experts" formerly believed that having either ADHD or autism precluded having the other; that seems to have been dropped by at least some.
For some of us who have multiple rabbit holes and who can have certain attention issues but also got an autism diagnosis, this might make sense. I can't totally relate to the single-rabbit-hole life.
It's not like we all get actual brain scans though, so we - and our clinicians, if we have such - are mostly just comparing subjective stuff to lists written by committees of people with lots of letters after their names, sitting in really nice rooms.
A youtube on the combo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMx1DnSn-eg&t=360s
The whole thing on "functioning levels" is a horrid rabbit hole...
Oh yes, for all its flaws, DSM-5 at least adressed that "little" glaring issue.
I have two friends with the AuDHD combo and one of them has also referred to the "multiple rabbit holes" thing. Interestingly, I think we're similar in multiple way but they both give off a more mellow and steady vibe than myself.
As for your take on the diagnostic methods, I very much agree. And, when it comes the way those things are even defined, in the spirit of Athena often calling the DSM an insurance reimbursement manual, let me drop this: https://ppw.kuleuven.be/okp/_pdf/Haslam2012CVDIP.pdf
"This review indicates that most latent variables of interest to psychiatrists and personality and clinical psychologists are dimensional, and that many influential taxonic findings of early taxometric research are likely to be spurious."
You know, the way you describe your boon companion, boredom - is intriguingly similar to how many people describe their experience with having ADHD; its mounting presence disrupts attention, which interferes with interest, with scatters desire, which undermines action oriented planning.
It's the looming antithesis of focus - its dark twin and inextricable arch nemesis, if you will. It can certainly be a handicap, but handicaps can be most valuable as training weights.
Getting used to construtively deal with its influence can indeed stoke all kinds of adventures, insights, creative endeavours and interesting experiences. As such, boredom can well be an aquired taste, and a catalyst. A springboard, rather than a pitfall.
I think it is always a good idea to figure out how to make your unique wiring work for you instead of against. If how you think is perceived as an enemy, then it certainly will be. If it is perceived as an enabler, it certainly will be. If it is perceived as an ally, then it certainly will be,.
Make your perceived weaknesses your perceived strengths.
Oh yes indeed, our perceptions carry weight upon ourselves. This is all taking me back to the Innner Game:
“Focus is not achieved by staring hard at something. It is not trying to force focus, nor does it mean thinking hard about something. Natural focus occurs when the mind is interested. When this occurs, the mind is drawn irresistibly toward the object (or subject) of interest. It is effortless and relaxed, not tense and overly controlled.”
“the inner game. This is the game that takes place in the mind of the player, and it is played against such obstacles as lapses in concentration, nervousness, self-doubt and self-condemnation. In short, it is played to overcome all habits of mind which inhibit excellence in performance.”
― W. Timothy Gallwey, The Inner Game of Tennis: The Classic Guide to the Mental Side of Peak Performance
“I also agree that predictable and repetitive things are boring, but that is true for everyone.”
It is interesting that you say this, because I quite enjoy predictable and repetitive things as an autistic person. I consume the same media (books, music, films) repeatedly, I eat the same meals in the exact same way over and over again. Eating new foods is difficult for me, and so I do not eat very often. When I do, it is a meal I’ve already eaten, even though I do enjoy cooking and learning new recipes.
I don’t enjoy the unpredictable, but I can handle it because I have to handle it. Life is unpredictable and there is no way of living but accepting that. Denial, I suppose, but denial has never made very much sense to me. It is a feeling I cannot relate to in the slightest. Still, I try to establish routine and predictability in my life where it is reasonable.
Mind you, I can certainly become bored and do find myself in this state frequently, but not necessarily due to the same reasons. Predictability and repetition have never bothered me, I quite enjoy them. This ‘flow’ state that is mentioned reminds me that when I am fixated on something I find interesting (usually something I am already extremely knowledgeable about or familiar with)—which happens frequently—I can continue to engage with it for a very long time. People are often surprised that the things I have been been actively interested in all my life, things that I know like the back of my hand—can still interest and excite me.
I enjoy experiencing new things, new activities and experiences—it is very fun and stimulating. However, I try to ensure that these new experiences are paired with some sense of routine or familiarity to ensure they do not become *over*stimulating.
Thank you for sharing your perspective saying "everyone" was an overstatement on my part.
Is there anything that you dislike due to being mundane, or is this something you embrace regardless of the situation?
Small talk comes to mind.
I dislike conversation that I do not find interesting. I can discuss a wide variety of topics, and can provide on the spot lectures for a few select topics, should an individual have enough self-loathing to agree to that. Small talk, and many other ‘polite’ social expectations are strange to me. I find them dull. I’d rather discuss something the both of us actually care about.
I have no trouble with sitting still as a statue and doing nothing in many circumstances where people try to entertain themselves. Waiting rooms, for example. I notice that everybody uses their phones. I find that I can simply sit there for hours and allow my mind to entertain itself. Watching the people around me can also be far more interesting than anything else sometimes, but I am perfectly fine without that too.
As a whole, I would much rather be under-stimulated than overstimulated. Sensory overstimulation is a very painful experience that is difficult to describe. When I experience it I feel overwhelmed, irritable, itchy, like I am suffocating, and every nerve in my body feels tender and raw to the touch. ‘Neurological waterboarding’ as I’ve called it. It feels as though my brain is being flooded with too much information all at once without being able to process it (which is what it is), so any further sensory input is painful. It is why I avoid parties, clubs, discos, or anything of the sort. I’d rather sit silently in a dark room—which I actually do sometimes.
That's a very descriptive term, "neurotypical waterboarding". I like it.
Thanks for the insightful and interesting post. "Neurological Waterboarding" explains exactly.
Here is an idea:
I don't speak the native language where I stay most. This frees me to do anything I want. And it protects in ways not immediately obvious.
Most people talk about the limitations: However, for the bit of extra time needed to conduct a very small number of business transactions, you win peace and serenity all around.
In a way you do this already: No phone, no parties, etc. Maybe I take it to the extreme, yet I have so much freedom and contentment of my life.
Thank you for the insight in your inner life.
Concerning “predictability of life” I would even go so far as to say that a life too unpredictable scares the human being. That idea is not from me; it is what we hear often in the radio and read in magazines nowadays here in Germany as we try to find an answer to the phenomenon why right-wing populist or extremist parties are coming up very strongly not only in Germany but also other European countries. People want to have simple solutions to very complex issues - because everything unsecure is scaring them.
A little off topic, but that is what comes to mind when I read your post.
Hi Athena. So when you cook, you also think about how to create poisons like the good psychopath that you are, right? Joking aside, thank you for your article it helps a lot, like everything you write, to set the record straight psychopathy and psychopaths.
Thank you, Dominique
I wonder if skill retention is a psychopath attribute. The section about flow states reminds me of the effort I'd put into developing various skills from shooting to driving to martial arts. At some point I'd master a skill but then not practice anywhere near what the coaches and instructors recommend yet I could maintain high levels without a lot of effort. A good example was back when I had to renew my CCW permit and I honestly couldn't tell you how long it'd been since I'd fired a shot but the instructor told me to stop before the required 10 rounds because I was making a single ragged hole in the target. It was easy, not at all a challenging course of fire
I think that there is something to be said for the streamlined learning that can happen when there is a fundamental lack of doubt in self, no fear of failure, and no issues with trying new things. Also, as those things are physically practiced things, not events that need to be recalled, there are more aspects of the brain that are concentrating on recording the memory.
You know.... I've been experiencing similar effects while improving my videogame skills. Sometimes I'll spend hours stuck in a challenging section while focusing on just ignoring the frustration, only to randomly lose my focus and find myself breezing through the whole thing.
It's as if sometimes the mind and emotions get out of the way of the body's reflexes, procedural memory takes over, and the body just goes through the motions unemcumbered. I do suppose it could be more of a effortless effort zen-in-the-art-of-archery type thhing. It indeed might be something the psychopathic mind could be naturally good at, due to their lower to none emotional reactiveness.
I have seen this with other people as well with videogames. Often I suggest when they hit that wall of frustration to come back to it the next day and they usually find it far easier to get through that section.
BUT WHAT DO YOU DO TO STOP BOREDOM?
I can't stop boredom, all I can do is prepare for it. That's next weeks post
But do you not do some activity to even temporarily relieve yourself of boredom or to distract yourself from it? Do you not sublimate/channel that energy into some activity or activities?
There are plenty of times that activity doesn't have an impact. The activity itself doesn't alleviate it
Athena, it appears Zepiroth asks what actions she can take to prevent sense (or feeling) of boredom.
It appears 'boredom" is just another thing I do not experience.
However, this condition sounds widespread.
Manipulating it would be so easy, and natural, you may ask: "Who is manipulating who?"
Perhaps I have it all wrong: It sounds dangerous and un-healthy.
There is no preventing it for a psychopath. It simply is
Sounds the most awful thing.
This is the most difficult subject (not to you!! hehehe) you present to date.
So far, I can not fit it in my head and find it difficult to understand except in terms of my own experience.
Athena, does it produce any distress for you to be bored? Or is it just like "It is what it is. What am I going to do about it?"
It's just one of those things that has to be dealt with
What happens with romantic relationships when familiarity sets in and you fully understand the specific idiosyncrasies of a partner? When you feel that you can accurately anticipate how they would react in a variety of situations, do romantic partners then feel boring?
No, I would rather know what to expect from a person. Psychopaths cannot feel trust, so trust is a cognitive choice that is made based on a person's actions being consistent with their word over a long period of time. If a person does not meet that standard they will never be granted trust, and worthiness of trust is required for my partners.
That makes sense. Thank you Athena.
No problem
Interesting. I have deep defenses to boredom which may be some cognitive drive or other. Some philosopher, who wrote a book titled "Signs and Semiotic", defines aesthetic merit as a tension between the created and the uncreated. That resonated with me. I knew from my own poor efforts at poetry that the poet doesn't tell all, leaving much to the reader's imagination. I know that I can find a good vantage point in the Brooks Range and observe, much like the flock guardian dogs who were once my companions observed. And from that I was free of boredom with the mental exercise of discovery of what would happen next, like the surprised look on a Dall ram's face when he rounded a knoll and found himself face to face with my camera. I much prefer the wilderness for my recharges of wanting to do the things that keep me occupied.
And your rant clarified why I enjoyed my main boredom avoidance. When wilderness is not readily accessible there are always books of poetry or visits to an art gallery in the off hours or delving into the mathematics of infinite dimensional vector spaces and essential singularities, or listening/viewing Sami Jojlks.
Finding myself bored a lot of the time at the moment. I've been trying new things and they're interesting for a while... But then it's hard to keep interest. I don't watch TV and can only watch films every so often as I find it too predictable watching.
I'm hoping that I don't have to keep changing jobs or houses!!
I understand what you're talking about. It can be extremely annoying.
Athena, you say that nothing in school has been interesting to you. And that you instead of listening to the school stuff were reading all the time. I find it interesting that nothing there could randomly arouse your attention and I wonder what you read then. The fact that you were reading tells us that there must have been something you were interested in. I would very much like to hear what it was that was not as boring as all the school stuff. Thank you.
I read what interested me at the time. It was widely varied. I wouldn't be able to tell you now what they were because I don't recall things that way.
Yes, you don’t recall it that way. But I think many people wouldn’t know what they read when they were fifteen.
I even couldn’t recall what I had read the day before for homework, when we read novels or plays in English or German. Only when my comrades began to summarize it, it came to my mind again. Piece by piece I could remember, and I always thought that phenomenon a bit strange.
I would like to read a blog from you on how you memorize things. I can imagine it differs much since you lack the emotional connection / connotation of things that happen to you. I would also be delighted if you posted a link to Quora, where you perhaps did already make a post on that topic.
Hmm, all right. I trust you read the one I previously wrote on it? If not, I will provide the link to it.
I’m sorry but I can’t remember a previous one. You mean here on Substack?
Please provide the link. Thanks!
Here you go:
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/photographs-memories-and-remembering
Sounds good! Exactly what I meant 🙂
Thanks for the interesting read as always, dear Athena.
Two things that came up while reading it:
When you say you never experienced that someone could have control over you - then did you never sit in some boring meeting you had to attend, with people talking about their emotional involvements in whatever, complaining about xyz, being struggled deeply in some unrelatable anxiousness - and you having a flight impulse because they are robbing your precious lifetime?
I think of myself as a very autonomous person (I assume you are similar autonomous) but sometimes I have to spend time in circumstances that have control over me (said meetings), that I can not just escape from. I wonder how you are coping such situations.
And second: as you talked about that jail cell around your room that luckily has not been there: I wonder what I would think about the child who lived in that room if your child-room would have been shown to me. I wonder if it looked differently than other child-rooms.
Nope, I just check out.
No idea. I didn't pay attention to my friends rooms. I know that my room differed when I was a teenager though. No posters of things teens liked, or anything like that. I lacked any of the "insert popular trend here" items around my room, I liked what I liked and I know it didn't align with others because it was mentioned to me by others.
Excuse me, does “check out” mean that you leave the meeting physically? Or you quit only with your mind?
Not being enthusiastic about the same bands or popular trends can make the passing with the peers very difficult. That was - in my life - the point where it was first becoming very clear that there was a big not-belonging. To their joys, fears, passions. To them as a group.
I would simply not pay attention to anything other than relevant information
I just got your most recent post. I'm commenting here because while I suppose I could sign up for the free trial, I already know I'll have to cancel it. So, it appears I won't be able to read your posts anymore, which is a shame, because I find them edifying. But I am not able to subscribe to anything more than that one magazine to which I already subscribe. Not given how high expenses are where I live, and how much money I (don't) have coming in.
My regular posts will still be available, the paid subscription content it a bonus. You won't be missing anything that you have already gotten used to.
Ah, so that was just a special post available to paid subscribers, but there will continue to be posts available to all?
Yes, that's correct
Fine article Athena,good to know the difference.