I feel like the list at the end shouldn't have made me simultaneously facepalm and chuckle as much as it did but truthfully, this was as well constructed as much as it is frustrating. It's one reason I'm not on social media anymore, because of how annoying the (trendy?) posting was of "look at this diagnosis I have," etc. At first I appreciated the posting occasional tips for living with a certain diagnosis, but like the point you made about psychopathy not being your definition as a whole, I noticed peoples' posting divert into a trainwreck of exactly that; all of the acronyms that honestly likely weren't even accurate having to be in everyone's bio, and the backlash if you don't use ...tone indicators? Someone got angry with me for posting a sarcastic comment without adding "/s", because I 'should have looked at their bio and seen their DXs and should know better etc' before commenting. Idk I feel like people shouldnt have that kind of time really🤦🏻♀️
I dipped shortly after; my own diagnoses couldn't take the pressure (ironic), but unless it's something relevant to a topic or conversation, I am sure as hell not making all of them public. That's a quick way to give someone ammunition if you're not prepared (I am not). This was a nice deep-dive honestly. Have to love people not listening to evidence and then blaming you🙄 (plus the retaliations? I want to know who left so many children unattended on Quora)
I do wish sometimes I didn't have as much pity as I do for people; maybe then I wouldn't feel as bad for their desire - wherever the hell it stems from - to feel so endlessly special. (.../s)
Yes, people are definitely seeking identities in things that cannot define a person. It seems to me like a very shallow way to live. Seeing how your life might be different in some respects due to how your mind works is one thing, but it is quite another to not be able to see past whatever acronym or diagnosis that is currently trending and making that all you know about yourself.
When people do not actually have the diagnosis that they claim, they are using exterior information to define the interior of their person hood. That is odd to me, but it can only mean that they need external things to create an internal person because they either do not know who they are, or who they are makes them unhappy. Either way, it is not a good way to live.
^^ 👌🏼 Definitely. I can't imagine diagnosis claiming leading to a very fulfilling life. I've always thought that if people are claiming diagnoses they don't have, there's very obviously still a root issue, even if it's not the one(s) they're insisting upon. Hopefully they can get to that source before a chiropractor has to step in; their back really must hurt from having to carry all of those acronyms🤦🏻♀️ (Genuinely, though, it is important.)
I think a lot of them are very unfulfilled and have no direction. I was thinking about this recently when I was bored. When I experience boredom I can get annoyed by the state. I find it inconvenient but understand it is what it is.
I mentioned this to the other psychopath that I know while we were discussing this need to pile up diagnoses, and he had a very interesting insight to it. He said basically that what we experience as boredom is annoying for us, but it lacks the emotional aspects of how it might be experienced by normal people. He thought that what we consider boredom might well be an existential crisis for someone that can feel anxiety and suffering. A minor annoyance to us might be something that may produce absolute dread in someone else.
What cures our boredom is finding something to do that interests us, so we will immediately seek that out, but if you are mired in a horrible feeling, this isn't so simple. Neither of us have to find things to be fulfilled, as that isn't how we operate, but most people need purpose. He thought that a purposeless life might be nearly impossible to face for someone with the full emotional palette.
To avoid this they look for something that can fill in that part of their lives, but society currently doesn't teach them how to find purpose and to build an identity, instead they attempt to download one from the internet. The problem is that they are still a person, and as much as that identity is a good crutch for a moment, it doesn't last. There is still an internal longing for what they do not have, nor can they understand. They don't have the emotional fortitude to explore it, and this leaves them back in the sense of dread and angst. At that point, they add another identity.
Please let me express some surprize you experience "boredom". Frequently, I hear that in RP chatrooms. People arrive and declare how bored they are. I generally am put off by that as those people (unlike you, in your life and NOT in a chatroom) pretty much think I should solve that for them.
Obviously waiting in line or a doctor's office or the like is boring, but other than that, I don't think I experience that. I might think I have f***ed off the last six hours doing much of nothing, but not a feeling of such.
Your friend (and you) are really onto something in your ideas of "purpose".
Isn't that what drives MAGA? Isn't purpose what causes them to unite with claims of stolen election, mistreatment and abuse at the hands of ruthless Democrats?
I got invited to watch a sports event at uber wealthy home owners: it was the Superbowl: SF against Baltimore. None of them were fans. Yet they all took sides as if enjoying the game wasn't enough. Most of them, being in CA, went for SF.
The second half opened with Baltimore running the kickoff back for a TD! Of course, I jumped and cheered!! Suddenly, my warm welcome, as friend of the owners, evaporated! It seemed likely I would be asked to leave!! haha.
I think you are exactly on point!! In every situations, we see people around us (at least in the USA) devoid of purpose, desperately seeking it.
Just like those CosPlaying with their "special brains".
Rock on my friend. I love your work and trust your "workbook for a better life" comes out soon!!!
I think that most ideology is actually driven by the brain's need for belief in something which is why you cannot have a conversation with zealots on either side of the aisle, and it is one of the reasons that I do not discuss politics with people. I also dislike the habit of using a broad brush to describe anyone's political leanings as it removes the individuals. When people do this, they decide, everyone who doesn't think like I do thinks the way that they do because they are incorrect.
They are incorrect because of (insert reason that is impenetrable) and therefore can be dismissed out of hand as well as everyone in said group. I have had very interesting conversations with people from all over the political compass and find that most people share about ninety percent of the important values. Where there is disagreement, conversation often lays bear points of view that are arrived at for a number of reasons, none of which can be gleaned by not speaking with one another.
What you describe at the Superbowl party is a great example of tribalism. The group has decided that X is the agreed upon "good thing", and you were happy about Y, which is "bad thing". That made you the out person. It is interesting to watch in people, and tribalism is a very powerful influence in human behavior.
It certainly seems like it. My line of thinking also tends to be on the biological side of things. It is the nature of people, particularly neurotypicals, to want to belong to a social group - biologically this makes sense; become separated from the group and you are less likely to survive. People now are more distanced from each other than ever before, particularly with the creation and growth of big cities, whereas this was not the case in the past. People do not know their neighbours, they rarely grow their own food, and are rarely involved in the construction of the houses in which they live or the products they use. They do not have a role within their 'group' that they can identify. Probably because the group no longer exists for most. Individualism grows increasingly prevalent. Wonderful for certain neurotypes, but not others. I sometimes wonder if the sudden onset of human distance, individualism, and the removal of that sense of purpose has created the phenomenon wherein people try to adapt to the change by becoming more focused on the self and being unique, but in the process unknowingly go against their biological desires for social purpose. I have realised this is the case with gender, as well as diagnoses. Many people take on gender labels that are, essentially, personality traits (I still struggle to understand how liking cats can be somebody's gender..). Essentially digging a deeper and deeper hole for themselves without realising it, led on by the fabricated sense of identity that only provides temporary fulfilment. It leaves people feeling more hollow and becoming self-obsessed. Human society is evolving faster than human evolution can catch up to.
I like this. "Attempt to download one from the Internet" is a really good way to look at it - our whole world is most often submerged inside of the internet, so in a strange way, it would make sense why the sense of "purpose," as false as it is, would stem directly from that source, and as you mentioned, repeat cycle. What's funny is, as educational as it can be, the internet seems to be capable of making a lot of people more bored. Thanks for this!
There seems to be a widespread mental contagion of sorts going around in which people take their emotional states as the basis for reality. Any desire these individuals have they elevate to the top of a hierarchy superseding facts, objectivity and biology on the premise that their feelings create reality. Their attacks on you Athena is out of anger that their feelings are powerless to fake the existence they want. Emotions unguided by reason can become dangerous.
Omgosh Athena 😲😲This is a lot. Seems to be the narrative these days to rack up personality disorders and act like a$$holes. People must be terribly lonely, you see this same kind of labeling within politics, the trans community, even religion. Everybody seems to need labels these days, they are romanticizing true and destructive disorders. I am cluster b who has found remission after wreaking havoc on my life, body and loved ones I do not romanticize this at all, as I carry the weight of regret of my past.
I agree, I think that there seems to be a tremendous amount of loneliness in the world and I agree that it seems to be creating serious mental health issues for a lot of people.
Interesting analysis, but worth to keep in mind that being a pioneer is naturally frustrating to begin with, until settlements have been made and well established. The past does not necessarily need to dictate the future, and breakthroughs in public opinion are not unheard of.
Life on the cutting edge is only glorified once a threshold of sufficiently sharpness is attained to cut through the mainstream of public opinion. Until then, quite a burdensome grind is normal - and to be expected.
Eventually though, the threads you're here casting could very well be picked up by other subsequent influencers, who could very well help turn around the public tides of opinion in the right direction, regarding these topics.
I can imagine that may happen naturally over the next decades, in tandem with the clearer widespread understanding around personality disorders and narcissism in particular - all of these are topics already ever increasingly in demand, and people are increasingly concerned in getting to he bottom of these prevalent matters that very few are unaffected by, one way or the other.
There are still many people who do not know about these things beyond the misconceptions you describe here, but there are also ever more people who do. Keep building, and they will keep coming. You never know when you'll attract - or connect with - people who command colossal audiences who may find the truth as fascinating as we all here do.
Bold claims, I know, but they can be objectively checked in Google Trends or Youtube by running a few queries; the numbers speak for themselves.
🤣🤣🤣 thank you for my morning laugh. This just proves how unknown psychopathy really is, and how people think they know what it is, at the same time getting it consistently confused with other conditions. This just proves what you are doing by sharing your own experience, your brain variant, and the proven logic and facts behind it…is so important. If you actually listen to what Athena is trying to tell you, the proven facts, the way she wrights, you can tell she is indeed a wonderful example of a good psychopathic human…if you actually understand, and LISTEN to the meaning of the facts.
Do you not see her trying to help others? Is that not love? ❤️ Please stop shitting on her, and others for things you don’t understand. Do your own research as well, and you will clearly see she makes a lot of sense if you can see with clear eyes.
Thanks for doing this, not only are you helping yourself and others, but you have helped me as well. I’m proud of you, and your work as a female psychopath, please don’t stop! 🙌🏼❤️
Too bad people won’t let this kind of misinformation die off - and you keep having to readdress it. It’s also really too bad about that woman was subjected to that treatment. Whomever is responsible for that: you DO have mental issues, if that makes you feel better. Maybe you’re an apex psychopathic empath - APE, for short.
CPTSD can present itself by appearing as any one of the plethora at any point in time... Food for thought.
It's bizarre to me exploring the human psyche and trying to understand various ways of experiencing the world.
I'm definitely not a psychopath, not born as such, highly unlikely that I'd show similar brain function...
Except at times maybe. Through learned experience. You've seen me say it before, it's happening again. The more I read from others experiences, the more I relate. But with an on off switch. There's undeniably a level of functionality that can be exploited with psychopathic traits. And can be done so in mutually beneficial and healthy ways. I think I might've learned to do it consciously. And the process leading to it certainly has neuroplastic effects as well. That's shown in numerous quantifiable means.
I don't have anywhere I'm going with this. Kinda putting my train of thought down. It's fascinating to me hearing from very different perspectives. It piques my interest when there's a very much different perspective, on a brain function level, that I can relate to through learned experience.
That's it. No point in this. I appreciate you putting your perspectives in writing and in such a presentable manner. 💚
Yeah I have learned what Psychopathy is from you Athena after studying them for over a decade. When I first came across your posts and you were polite enough to converse with me and answer my questions I slowly became informed. I also read a book you recommended. Anyway I find it fascinating that so many psychologists have no idea what or how a psychopath thinks and behaves. Almost every serial killer has been labeled a psychopath but when I look at their cases they are clearly not. Lastly I think disturbed people with mental issues will grab into labeling themselves a psychopath because it’s what they think they are in accordance with their false beliefs.
I think a great deal of this comes from a lack of cognitive understanding. If you cannot understand how another person thinks or operates, and you are also able to feel fear and tribalism, the outcome is often predetermined.
Conflating autism with psychopathy? That is one I haven't heard before. Though I will say I certainly understand why some autistic people mistakenly believe they are psychopathic at first, and vice versa. The lack of a need for socialisation and a disconnect from the emotions of others that many of us experience can appear to mirror some of the traits of psychopathy. Doing further research makes it very clear that the two are very different neurologically, but I suppose some people don't care for facts. Personally, I find neurotypes like psychopathy easier to socialise and communicate with. There isn't a constant need for reassurance from either side. It is straightforward and plain-spoken. I don't know how many autistic people you've interacted with, so I've no idea what this looks like from the other perspective.
I saw this developing years ago in my teens on the website of Tumblr. It started as ‘Otherkin’ then ‘Factkin’ and ‘Fickin’, then people deciding all forms of self diagnosis were valid, that having a diagnosis made you more able to behave poorly than others, now we’ve got kids claiming to have multiple personalities that take over or ‘front’ and that each of the personalities has their own illnesses, gender, sexuality, interests, etc.
Some of those posts left my head spinning... I don't know that much about bipolar, but I wonder if some folks might write like some of those paragraphs if untreated. I have heard that logic gets a bit odd for some folks sometimes when manic; they can have very difficult lives in many ways due to actions taken while manic (though making others' lives very difficult is also a problem of course.) Some dislike the side effects of the meds so much they refuse them, and psychiatrists can misdiagnose of course.
Perhaps. I don't know that much about Bipolar either, but I do know that there are different types, and some that can feature psychosis as well. Perhaps someone will read the words and identify what sort of thought process it is, and weigh in.
I think that they don't think about it further than the idea that if they are a psychopath that they are somehow more important. It makes them invulnerable, so they want believe that about themselves.
I am invulnerable, also I have PTSD and suffer from anxiety. Of course that fits with everything else they say, right?
As an aside the only time I've cried due to a death wasn't my grandmother or uncle or any of countless other humans. It was a dog who was hit by a car and the entire thing was more confusing to me than anything. It didn't last long either, I think I may have mentioned it before in discussions.
Yes, and I think that it would make sense if you consider Newman's attention theory. For whatever reason that loss made the absent signal of sadness surface for that moment.
I'm far from being a mental health professional and have no dog in this fight. But... My understanding is that psychopathy was not even in the DSM-5. I can well understand the argument that there needs to be a term for anafectivity separate from antisocial personality disorder. But if psychopathy has a formal definition then what authority or common usage is being called upon to give "psychopathy" it's definitive meaning?
I consider neuroscience to be the best place to define psychopathy. It is observable, and the brains of psychopaths show consistent differences. Psychology needs to back away. They have made a total mess of things and are too invested in a narrative to fix it.
Yes agree. The common approach seems to be that a psychopath is essentially ASPD with strong Machiavellian tendencies plus lack of a fear response.
I’ve mentioned to you before that narcissistic psychopath doesn’t make sense to me as narcissists and psychopaths appear to me to be fundamentally different and similar only in that they share reduced or lack of emotional empathy.
The problem for me, is that there is so much conflicting information out there, it’s very difficult to accurately define exactly what psychopathy is or probably more importantly, what it isn’t.
I would be described as neurotypical. I have a high level of emotional empathy. INFJ every time I take the Myers Briggs test, which I am sure has its limitations but at least I’m consistent! Within the neurotypical group there will be marked differences in behaviour, a sliding scale of emotional empathy, likely range rather than intensity based. I imagine psychopathy to be similar. Huge differences between low functioning and high functioning psychopaths in terms of impulsivity, conscientiousness etc but also sharing common traits.
I’d really like to know Athena, in your opinion what are the similarities and differences between psychopathy and ASPD? My apologies if you have answered this multiple times before.
I find the field of psychology fascinating but I think the neuroscience has to be more accurate, it offers proof rather than inference.
"Machiavellian tendencies" is a meaningless term when it comes to psychopathy as that isn't what Machiavellianism is. It is nothing more than a strategy that people employ to try to bury their emotions and pretend that they have the lowered and different emotional experience of psychopaths.
There isn't an overlap between psychopathy and ASPD. They have nothing to do with one another.
You are correct, there isn't anything similar about narcissism and psychopathy. This is one of the very messy problems that ASPD as a diagnosis created. I agree, there is a lot of conflicting information out there. This is why I think that going back to the basics is important. Instead of identifying behaviors in a person, which is all ASPD does, look at the cause of those behaviors as each person that nets an ASPD diagnosis is going to have a different root.
That root in someone that has NPD and is antisocial will look nothing like that of the root of someone that is also an antisocial psychopath. ASPD can't be bothered with any of that, and it is a large part of why it is a garbage diagnosis.
Thank you for the link to your additional articles. I had suspected myself that the DSM was very much there for insurance purposes. I think the reliance on checklists for diagnosis is highly concerning also. Very much a case of “If you’re not on the list, you’re not coming in.”
I have yet to follow the link to the more expansive article referenced but in terms of summary and explanation I found yours extremely logical, it makes sense to my way of thinking about it. Environment is key. You could have two individuals with psychopathic brain wiring. One is brought up in an abusive household or exposed to repeated instances of criminal behaviour, the other is fortunate to have parents willing to educate and take time to moderate the behaviour and responses of the child, the outcome has to be vastly different in terms of behaviour and world view. So much of what is out there on the internet suggests psychopath, foregone conclusion and that just didn’t sit right with me.
I don’t know what your thoughts are about James Fallon, but his approach makes a lot of sense to me. I smiled at your mention of Kevin Dutton, I have read ‘The Wisdom of Psychopaths’ and am part way through ‘Flipnosis’ at the moment. Again, I like Dutton’s approach.
Interesting too what you say about the Machiavellian aspect. I need to ponder that further.
Thank you for your response and for the additional links, I found those articles really useful.
I feel like the list at the end shouldn't have made me simultaneously facepalm and chuckle as much as it did but truthfully, this was as well constructed as much as it is frustrating. It's one reason I'm not on social media anymore, because of how annoying the (trendy?) posting was of "look at this diagnosis I have," etc. At first I appreciated the posting occasional tips for living with a certain diagnosis, but like the point you made about psychopathy not being your definition as a whole, I noticed peoples' posting divert into a trainwreck of exactly that; all of the acronyms that honestly likely weren't even accurate having to be in everyone's bio, and the backlash if you don't use ...tone indicators? Someone got angry with me for posting a sarcastic comment without adding "/s", because I 'should have looked at their bio and seen their DXs and should know better etc' before commenting. Idk I feel like people shouldnt have that kind of time really🤦🏻♀️
I dipped shortly after; my own diagnoses couldn't take the pressure (ironic), but unless it's something relevant to a topic or conversation, I am sure as hell not making all of them public. That's a quick way to give someone ammunition if you're not prepared (I am not). This was a nice deep-dive honestly. Have to love people not listening to evidence and then blaming you🙄 (plus the retaliations? I want to know who left so many children unattended on Quora)
I do wish sometimes I didn't have as much pity as I do for people; maybe then I wouldn't feel as bad for their desire - wherever the hell it stems from - to feel so endlessly special. (.../s)
Yes, people are definitely seeking identities in things that cannot define a person. It seems to me like a very shallow way to live. Seeing how your life might be different in some respects due to how your mind works is one thing, but it is quite another to not be able to see past whatever acronym or diagnosis that is currently trending and making that all you know about yourself.
When people do not actually have the diagnosis that they claim, they are using exterior information to define the interior of their person hood. That is odd to me, but it can only mean that they need external things to create an internal person because they either do not know who they are, or who they are makes them unhappy. Either way, it is not a good way to live.
^^ 👌🏼 Definitely. I can't imagine diagnosis claiming leading to a very fulfilling life. I've always thought that if people are claiming diagnoses they don't have, there's very obviously still a root issue, even if it's not the one(s) they're insisting upon. Hopefully they can get to that source before a chiropractor has to step in; their back really must hurt from having to carry all of those acronyms🤦🏻♀️ (Genuinely, though, it is important.)
I think a lot of them are very unfulfilled and have no direction. I was thinking about this recently when I was bored. When I experience boredom I can get annoyed by the state. I find it inconvenient but understand it is what it is.
I mentioned this to the other psychopath that I know while we were discussing this need to pile up diagnoses, and he had a very interesting insight to it. He said basically that what we experience as boredom is annoying for us, but it lacks the emotional aspects of how it might be experienced by normal people. He thought that what we consider boredom might well be an existential crisis for someone that can feel anxiety and suffering. A minor annoyance to us might be something that may produce absolute dread in someone else.
What cures our boredom is finding something to do that interests us, so we will immediately seek that out, but if you are mired in a horrible feeling, this isn't so simple. Neither of us have to find things to be fulfilled, as that isn't how we operate, but most people need purpose. He thought that a purposeless life might be nearly impossible to face for someone with the full emotional palette.
To avoid this they look for something that can fill in that part of their lives, but society currently doesn't teach them how to find purpose and to build an identity, instead they attempt to download one from the internet. The problem is that they are still a person, and as much as that identity is a good crutch for a moment, it doesn't last. There is still an internal longing for what they do not have, nor can they understand. They don't have the emotional fortitude to explore it, and this leaves them back in the sense of dread and angst. At that point, they add another identity.
And so it goes.
I love your reply just above. Insightful as ever:
Please let me express some surprize you experience "boredom". Frequently, I hear that in RP chatrooms. People arrive and declare how bored they are. I generally am put off by that as those people (unlike you, in your life and NOT in a chatroom) pretty much think I should solve that for them.
Obviously waiting in line or a doctor's office or the like is boring, but other than that, I don't think I experience that. I might think I have f***ed off the last six hours doing much of nothing, but not a feeling of such.
Your friend (and you) are really onto something in your ideas of "purpose".
Isn't that what drives MAGA? Isn't purpose what causes them to unite with claims of stolen election, mistreatment and abuse at the hands of ruthless Democrats?
I got invited to watch a sports event at uber wealthy home owners: it was the Superbowl: SF against Baltimore. None of them were fans. Yet they all took sides as if enjoying the game wasn't enough. Most of them, being in CA, went for SF.
The second half opened with Baltimore running the kickoff back for a TD! Of course, I jumped and cheered!! Suddenly, my warm welcome, as friend of the owners, evaporated! It seemed likely I would be asked to leave!! haha.
I think you are exactly on point!! In every situations, we see people around us (at least in the USA) devoid of purpose, desperately seeking it.
Just like those CosPlaying with their "special brains".
Rock on my friend. I love your work and trust your "workbook for a better life" comes out soon!!!
love
tim
I think that most ideology is actually driven by the brain's need for belief in something which is why you cannot have a conversation with zealots on either side of the aisle, and it is one of the reasons that I do not discuss politics with people. I also dislike the habit of using a broad brush to describe anyone's political leanings as it removes the individuals. When people do this, they decide, everyone who doesn't think like I do thinks the way that they do because they are incorrect.
They are incorrect because of (insert reason that is impenetrable) and therefore can be dismissed out of hand as well as everyone in said group. I have had very interesting conversations with people from all over the political compass and find that most people share about ninety percent of the important values. Where there is disagreement, conversation often lays bear points of view that are arrived at for a number of reasons, none of which can be gleaned by not speaking with one another.
What you describe at the Superbowl party is a great example of tribalism. The group has decided that X is the agreed upon "good thing", and you were happy about Y, which is "bad thing". That made you the out person. It is interesting to watch in people, and tribalism is a very powerful influence in human behavior.
Evolution does that.
-smiles- 100 "Yes-es": Can be dismissed, out of hand, along with THAT whole tribe!! haha
I think that is a good explanation of this phenomenon. It is something I have wondered about recently as well.
He has this ability to have a preternatural insight into people
It certainly seems like it. My line of thinking also tends to be on the biological side of things. It is the nature of people, particularly neurotypicals, to want to belong to a social group - biologically this makes sense; become separated from the group and you are less likely to survive. People now are more distanced from each other than ever before, particularly with the creation and growth of big cities, whereas this was not the case in the past. People do not know their neighbours, they rarely grow their own food, and are rarely involved in the construction of the houses in which they live or the products they use. They do not have a role within their 'group' that they can identify. Probably because the group no longer exists for most. Individualism grows increasingly prevalent. Wonderful for certain neurotypes, but not others. I sometimes wonder if the sudden onset of human distance, individualism, and the removal of that sense of purpose has created the phenomenon wherein people try to adapt to the change by becoming more focused on the self and being unique, but in the process unknowingly go against their biological desires for social purpose. I have realised this is the case with gender, as well as diagnoses. Many people take on gender labels that are, essentially, personality traits (I still struggle to understand how liking cats can be somebody's gender..). Essentially digging a deeper and deeper hole for themselves without realising it, led on by the fabricated sense of identity that only provides temporary fulfilment. It leaves people feeling more hollow and becoming self-obsessed. Human society is evolving faster than human evolution can catch up to.
I like this. "Attempt to download one from the Internet" is a really good way to look at it - our whole world is most often submerged inside of the internet, so in a strange way, it would make sense why the sense of "purpose," as false as it is, would stem directly from that source, and as you mentioned, repeat cycle. What's funny is, as educational as it can be, the internet seems to be capable of making a lot of people more bored. Thanks for this!
I agree, it does indeed have that effect.
Cosplaying Psychopathy lol. Well this was funny.
I’ve labeled these “the Quora psychopaths”. You have the patience of a saint
Thank you, David.
There seems to be a widespread mental contagion of sorts going around in which people take their emotional states as the basis for reality. Any desire these individuals have they elevate to the top of a hierarchy superseding facts, objectivity and biology on the premise that their feelings create reality. Their attacks on you Athena is out of anger that their feelings are powerless to fake the existence they want. Emotions unguided by reason can become dangerous.
Agree. My personal favourite, “I am speaking my truth.” Are you? Excellent, happy for you!
Since when did ‘my truth’ not have to relate in any way to ‘THE truth’.
I understand that two people can witness the same event and yet experience it differently, but ‘my truth’, that one drives me nuts! Haha!
Indeed, "my truth" seems to be nothing more than "my opinion that I intend to inflict on you and require you to accept it as fact".
Precisely!
Yes, I agree.
Omgosh Athena 😲😲This is a lot. Seems to be the narrative these days to rack up personality disorders and act like a$$holes. People must be terribly lonely, you see this same kind of labeling within politics, the trans community, even religion. Everybody seems to need labels these days, they are romanticizing true and destructive disorders. I am cluster b who has found remission after wreaking havoc on my life, body and loved ones I do not romanticize this at all, as I carry the weight of regret of my past.
I agree, I think that there seems to be a tremendous amount of loneliness in the world and I agree that it seems to be creating serious mental health issues for a lot of people.
Interesting analysis, but worth to keep in mind that being a pioneer is naturally frustrating to begin with, until settlements have been made and well established. The past does not necessarily need to dictate the future, and breakthroughs in public opinion are not unheard of.
Life on the cutting edge is only glorified once a threshold of sufficiently sharpness is attained to cut through the mainstream of public opinion. Until then, quite a burdensome grind is normal - and to be expected.
Eventually though, the threads you're here casting could very well be picked up by other subsequent influencers, who could very well help turn around the public tides of opinion in the right direction, regarding these topics.
I can imagine that may happen naturally over the next decades, in tandem with the clearer widespread understanding around personality disorders and narcissism in particular - all of these are topics already ever increasingly in demand, and people are increasingly concerned in getting to he bottom of these prevalent matters that very few are unaffected by, one way or the other.
There are still many people who do not know about these things beyond the misconceptions you describe here, but there are also ever more people who do. Keep building, and they will keep coming. You never know when you'll attract - or connect with - people who command colossal audiences who may find the truth as fascinating as we all here do.
Bold claims, I know, but they can be objectively checked in Google Trends or Youtube by running a few queries; the numbers speak for themselves.
🤣🤣🤣 thank you for my morning laugh. This just proves how unknown psychopathy really is, and how people think they know what it is, at the same time getting it consistently confused with other conditions. This just proves what you are doing by sharing your own experience, your brain variant, and the proven logic and facts behind it…is so important. If you actually listen to what Athena is trying to tell you, the proven facts, the way she wrights, you can tell she is indeed a wonderful example of a good psychopathic human…if you actually understand, and LISTEN to the meaning of the facts.
Do you not see her trying to help others? Is that not love? ❤️ Please stop shitting on her, and others for things you don’t understand. Do your own research as well, and you will clearly see she makes a lot of sense if you can see with clear eyes.
Thanks for doing this, not only are you helping yourself and others, but you have helped me as well. I’m proud of you, and your work as a female psychopath, please don’t stop! 🙌🏼❤️
I appreciate the kind words
Too bad people won’t let this kind of misinformation die off - and you keep having to readdress it. It’s also really too bad about that woman was subjected to that treatment. Whomever is responsible for that: you DO have mental issues, if that makes you feel better. Maybe you’re an apex psychopathic empath - APE, for short.
Ha! I like that
CPTSD can present itself by appearing as any one of the plethora at any point in time... Food for thought.
It's bizarre to me exploring the human psyche and trying to understand various ways of experiencing the world.
I'm definitely not a psychopath, not born as such, highly unlikely that I'd show similar brain function...
Except at times maybe. Through learned experience. You've seen me say it before, it's happening again. The more I read from others experiences, the more I relate. But with an on off switch. There's undeniably a level of functionality that can be exploited with psychopathic traits. And can be done so in mutually beneficial and healthy ways. I think I might've learned to do it consciously. And the process leading to it certainly has neuroplastic effects as well. That's shown in numerous quantifiable means.
I don't have anywhere I'm going with this. Kinda putting my train of thought down. It's fascinating to me hearing from very different perspectives. It piques my interest when there's a very much different perspective, on a brain function level, that I can relate to through learned experience.
That's it. No point in this. I appreciate you putting your perspectives in writing and in such a presentable manner. 💚
Yeah I have learned what Psychopathy is from you Athena after studying them for over a decade. When I first came across your posts and you were polite enough to converse with me and answer my questions I slowly became informed. I also read a book you recommended. Anyway I find it fascinating that so many psychologists have no idea what or how a psychopath thinks and behaves. Almost every serial killer has been labeled a psychopath but when I look at their cases they are clearly not. Lastly I think disturbed people with mental issues will grab into labeling themselves a psychopath because it’s what they think they are in accordance with their false beliefs.
I think a great deal of this comes from a lack of cognitive understanding. If you cannot understand how another person thinks or operates, and you are also able to feel fear and tribalism, the outcome is often predetermined.
Certainly
Conflating autism with psychopathy? That is one I haven't heard before. Though I will say I certainly understand why some autistic people mistakenly believe they are psychopathic at first, and vice versa. The lack of a need for socialisation and a disconnect from the emotions of others that many of us experience can appear to mirror some of the traits of psychopathy. Doing further research makes it very clear that the two are very different neurologically, but I suppose some people don't care for facts. Personally, I find neurotypes like psychopathy easier to socialise and communicate with. There isn't a constant need for reassurance from either side. It is straightforward and plain-spoken. I don't know how many autistic people you've interacted with, so I've no idea what this looks like from the other perspective.
Yes, I have found similarly. Without the need for the emotional circuit, communication is far more direct.
I saw this developing years ago in my teens on the website of Tumblr. It started as ‘Otherkin’ then ‘Factkin’ and ‘Fickin’, then people deciding all forms of self diagnosis were valid, that having a diagnosis made you more able to behave poorly than others, now we’ve got kids claiming to have multiple personalities that take over or ‘front’ and that each of the personalities has their own illnesses, gender, sexuality, interests, etc.
It’s a fucking headache.
I agree.
Constantly streamlining by synapses is such a chore
Some of those posts left my head spinning... I don't know that much about bipolar, but I wonder if some folks might write like some of those paragraphs if untreated. I have heard that logic gets a bit odd for some folks sometimes when manic; they can have very difficult lives in many ways due to actions taken while manic (though making others' lives very difficult is also a problem of course.) Some dislike the side effects of the meds so much they refuse them, and psychiatrists can misdiagnose of course.
The doxxing is awful.
Perhaps. I don't know that much about Bipolar either, but I do know that there are different types, and some that can feature psychosis as well. Perhaps someone will read the words and identify what sort of thought process it is, and weigh in.
I agree, it is awful, and totally unnecessary.
It's as if they are intent on giving psychopathy a bad name
I think that they don't think about it further than the idea that if they are a psychopath that they are somehow more important. It makes them invulnerable, so they want believe that about themselves.
I am invulnerable, also I have PTSD and suffer from anxiety. Of course that fits with everything else they say, right?
As an aside the only time I've cried due to a death wasn't my grandmother or uncle or any of countless other humans. It was a dog who was hit by a car and the entire thing was more confusing to me than anything. It didn't last long either, I think I may have mentioned it before in discussions.
Yes, and I think that it would make sense if you consider Newman's attention theory. For whatever reason that loss made the absent signal of sadness surface for that moment.
That makes a lot of sense in light of my experience
I'm far from being a mental health professional and have no dog in this fight. But... My understanding is that psychopathy was not even in the DSM-5. I can well understand the argument that there needs to be a term for anafectivity separate from antisocial personality disorder. But if psychopathy has a formal definition then what authority or common usage is being called upon to give "psychopathy" it's definitive meaning?
I consider neuroscience to be the best place to define psychopathy. It is observable, and the brains of psychopaths show consistent differences. Psychology needs to back away. They have made a total mess of things and are too invested in a narrative to fix it.
Yes agree. The common approach seems to be that a psychopath is essentially ASPD with strong Machiavellian tendencies plus lack of a fear response.
I’ve mentioned to you before that narcissistic psychopath doesn’t make sense to me as narcissists and psychopaths appear to me to be fundamentally different and similar only in that they share reduced or lack of emotional empathy.
The problem for me, is that there is so much conflicting information out there, it’s very difficult to accurately define exactly what psychopathy is or probably more importantly, what it isn’t.
I would be described as neurotypical. I have a high level of emotional empathy. INFJ every time I take the Myers Briggs test, which I am sure has its limitations but at least I’m consistent! Within the neurotypical group there will be marked differences in behaviour, a sliding scale of emotional empathy, likely range rather than intensity based. I imagine psychopathy to be similar. Huge differences between low functioning and high functioning psychopaths in terms of impulsivity, conscientiousness etc but also sharing common traits.
I’d really like to know Athena, in your opinion what are the similarities and differences between psychopathy and ASPD? My apologies if you have answered this multiple times before.
I find the field of psychology fascinating but I think the neuroscience has to be more accurate, it offers proof rather than inference.
"Machiavellian tendencies" is a meaningless term when it comes to psychopathy as that isn't what Machiavellianism is. It is nothing more than a strategy that people employ to try to bury their emotions and pretend that they have the lowered and different emotional experience of psychopaths.
There isn't an overlap between psychopathy and ASPD. They have nothing to do with one another.
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/psychopathy-and-aspd
You are correct, there isn't anything similar about narcissism and psychopathy. This is one of the very messy problems that ASPD as a diagnosis created. I agree, there is a lot of conflicting information out there. This is why I think that going back to the basics is important. Instead of identifying behaviors in a person, which is all ASPD does, look at the cause of those behaviors as each person that nets an ASPD diagnosis is going to have a different root.
That root in someone that has NPD and is antisocial will look nothing like that of the root of someone that is also an antisocial psychopath. ASPD can't be bothered with any of that, and it is a large part of why it is a garbage diagnosis.
Thank you for the link to your additional articles. I had suspected myself that the DSM was very much there for insurance purposes. I think the reliance on checklists for diagnosis is highly concerning also. Very much a case of “If you’re not on the list, you’re not coming in.”
I have yet to follow the link to the more expansive article referenced but in terms of summary and explanation I found yours extremely logical, it makes sense to my way of thinking about it. Environment is key. You could have two individuals with psychopathic brain wiring. One is brought up in an abusive household or exposed to repeated instances of criminal behaviour, the other is fortunate to have parents willing to educate and take time to moderate the behaviour and responses of the child, the outcome has to be vastly different in terms of behaviour and world view. So much of what is out there on the internet suggests psychopath, foregone conclusion and that just didn’t sit right with me.
I don’t know what your thoughts are about James Fallon, but his approach makes a lot of sense to me. I smiled at your mention of Kevin Dutton, I have read ‘The Wisdom of Psychopaths’ and am part way through ‘Flipnosis’ at the moment. Again, I like Dutton’s approach.
Interesting too what you say about the Machiavellian aspect. I need to ponder that further.
Thank you for your response and for the additional links, I found those articles really useful.
You are quite welcome