Oh I'm definitely down to hear about naked people on LSD being tied together. I can't imagine what would be considered a good outcome for doing that. I wonder what LSD does to a psychopath anyway?
I have a family member who is a psychopath and wrote books about peyote and LSD. He also spent a lot of time naked having sex on LSD while listening to Wagner’s Ring Trilogy. None of that changed his basic nature. So, I think he would think it a hoot to have doctors give him great pure psychedelics and tie him up naked to another person. Knowing him, it would not be his empathy that was rising.
Yeah... it didn't seem to have any effect on the "psychopaths" at all, provided that they actually were psychopathic, but with the diagnostics at the time, who knows? It was certainly an interesting experiment, however,
I have tried LSD and really enjoyed the experience. Apples on the tree had a lot to say actually. It surprized me my co-trippers did not expect to have sex while tripping. I associate doing drugs with sex - acid included.
Bondage hasn't been my thing, but I am willing to try if the acid is good!!
As a side note in my experience bondage as a fetish centers on trust and trust issues. Being as I don't experience trust I don't personally understand the attraction.
Please feel free to always post fetish and such commentary.
I didn't associate trust with bondage:
but as I thought about your comment, I do remember two partners who were interested or found some interest or excitement from bondage.
Unfortunately, I recall pushing it "too hard" and it all ended rather abruptly. Yes, perhaps it was a trust thing? I pushed past the trust; my partner went full panic. And full stop. Wow.
Some of this is fear, but some is influenced by our Judeo-Christian culture, which asserts that every person is redeemable within that framework. I have tried to explain to religious friends that a psychopath cannot be "saved" in the way that they insist, as a psychopath is incapable of feeling remorse. They find it difficult to accept this and insist that if touched by God, a psychopath would feel remorse, disregarding any discussion of impossibility. Accepting that primary factor one psychopaths are born this way and are fine as they are is anathema to them, as it would challenge their worldview. I mention that a psychopath could potentially experience cognitive remorse through cognitive empathy, but I can't fathom the need for it. I have encountered someone who claims to be psychopath and a Christian, though I didn't follow up on this to find out if maybe they were secondary factor two psychopathy, which would make more sense. It seems there is a desire to save psychopaths, who often possess significant charm and attractiveness. As one of my friends said, "I have to believe that everyone can be saved".
"There was actually a study that was done specifically to try to attempt defanging psychopaths in a nearly literal sense. It involved LSD and tying naked people together. Let me know if you guys want to hear about it. It’s kind of a wild ride."
Sounds fascinating, Athena. I'd love to hear about it!
The religious Christians I know are genuine, and good-natured. They do tend to be resistant to having their worldview challenged. It's not limited to the religious; many people, if not most, exhibit this tendency to some degree. We may end up having to agree to disagree but at least we can do so without any acrimony, which is nice. But, the belief that someone like a psychopath is "lost", and will eventually turn to God is deeply ingrained and difficult to shake. Similar dogmatic thinking might be observed in certain psychological schools of thought, where the notion of being "lost" and subsequently "found" persists. This trope seems to transcend different belief systems.
I don't know if they do have to believe that everyone can be saved. Perhaps they don't want to think about it. They literally go to church to "be saved", and therefore, they don't have to think. There are about a billion things that create a problem in their belief system but they don't think about any of them. When a Christian says asks me to debate by using scripture. I do it by using scripture. If I prove them wrong about whatever the point is I never hear from them again. They do not have good faith or even, truly, I suspect, on a deep level a real belief (some do but not all). They just don't want to have to think.
The Pharisees professed their beliefs endlessly about various things but Jesus still saw through them. As will be the case in any "second coming".
I am also Christian as a disclaimer, but not in a way that the local mainstream Church would accept.
I can't speak for Christians in general, but the specific group of religious individuals I'm referring to are Evangelicals. I know very little about their perspective on Christianity. However, these particular individuals were raised by missionaries, which instilled in them a literal belief that everyone can be saved. While they may not be unique in holding this belief, it does shape their worldview and approach to discussions.
i think this is a good point. i was raised southern baptist and have heard this viewpoint many times (still hear it often, though i'm not a part of it myself). it was almost a game, tallying up how many people you had 'saved' that week in church.
Great article. I agree that for some people they need to explain the motive for bad behaviour. Bad behaviour without motive just doesn’t fit within the NT world view at all.
I also don’t think we understand the concept of boredom. Our boredom is different so bad behaviour ‘because it alleviated the boredom’ doesn’t fully compute. There must be something else, a different motive, a hidden motive. I have wondered about the boredom of the psychopath. The conclusion I drew was that psychopaths are bored because emotional empathy is absent. If I looked at my day and recorded every thought I had, most of the thoughts that weren’t task related would involve the bonds I have to other people. I might worry about a friend who is having relationship difficulties, ponder how my son’s day is going at school, mull over a problem at work another person is having, plan a holiday whilst remembering fondly the last holiday with my family. My thoughts are populated by emotional ties and bonds. If I removed all of those emotional thoughts there would be a huge amount of free band width. I think this is where the psychopath’s boredom comes in.
I think some people also have a need to defang the psychopath because actually they care. They genuinely see the lack of emotional empathy as a ‘missing out’. They love, have experienced love and they can’t imagine going through life not experiencing that feeling to its fullest extent. It’s not a done with a ‘superior’ attitude. It’s done because they genuinely care and feel that the psychopath should experience full spectrum of emotions that they experience. They value those emotions and hope that by defanging, or having faith that a defanging might some day be possible, the psychopath will get to experience emotional ties in a similar way. Technically it’s a grandiose ‘ my world view is better’. I don’t think that’s the intention though, at least not always.
I get that. I consider the different experiences of NTs and psychopaths to be rather complementary. Instead of seeing one or the other as lacking, seeing each other as parts of a puzzle that works better together than in opposition.
Thankyou, that was a very good explanation of NT's internal states that is obviously missing in my own perspective if you have read my posts. I would say that I shall have to try and replicate that emotional sense when considering NT's, but I cannot do that. Yet.
It also makes me realise why people get uncomfortable around me. If I say "x person will not do y (ethical thing!) because, why would they? This can be proven through actions abc". This is a lack of an emotional bond that alarms the NT.
I don't know what my issue is (I don't think it's psychopathy) but I lack emotional empathy to an extent, but not up to not experiencing grief I don't think.
I don't think about any of these things. I have never once in my life thought that people that did not have emotional empathy and it's correlating disadvantages were "missing out".
It also adds to my ongoing realisation of why narcissists have such luck manipulating NT's. Narcissist are very, very good at communicating emotionally. It has seemed to me more and more that narcissism is emotional empathy taken to it's logical conclusion. The narcissist proports to care about others, and hence tries to control their behaviour. "For their own benefit". It's like empathy without logic. So they can get away with saying nasty things about others in the guise of being empathetic.
This might even tie into your last sentence.
But if someone like me comes along and says "look, this person is a prick" this didn't include the prerequisite emotional manipulation (which includes a lot of emotional labour!). Therefore it is not received well by the NT. I suppose a psychopath that does take the time for the "prerequisite emotional manipulation" is very frightening for the NT indeed.
I’m glad you found my comment of interest. I think you are absolutely right about narcissists and false empathy. Narcissists require the emotional feedback for validation, it powers them. As such, they do speak an emotional language, they have to. If you are an emotional person, it would first appear that you have found the ideal match. They notice what you notice, feel what you feel. It takes a while before you realise that actually they were simply mirroring your own emotion back at you. Nothing was genuine at all. That moment of realisation usually coincides with the commencement of your devaluation.
Socially, narcissists that present as the false empaths can generally be found in the ‘Be Kind’ brigade. Scratch the surface and what lies beneath is nothing like that kind, all inclusive exterior. The actions rarely match the words. They believe themselves to be empathic when really they are the complete opposite. It sounds to me that you are spotting the ‘false empath’ narcissist, calling it accurately but those around you are falling for the narcissist’s facade.
I think it’s the narcissist that is manipulative for the most part. They seek control whereas to my knowledge, the psychopath doesn’t need the control over people. They just don’t need people at all other than as a welcome diversion from the boredom they experience. That diversion I don’t think necessitates any need for control, or any need for a facade. I’m sure Athena will correct me there if I’m wrong.
I think there is a logic to the narcissist. They are motivated by the need for emotional feedback and control. The apparent empathy is just a means of acquiring those things. Sadly I think there is so much false empathy swishing around in the world at the moment people see all emotional empathy as false, and that’s a real shame. Genuine emotional empathy I think is a beautiful thing.
Interesting comment J.L.W. Thank you for taking the time to respond.
please describe "defanging a psychopath". does it mean making them more "normal?"
also, what is the take on all this of the mental health professionals? do the therapists, psychologists and psychiatrists reinforce the notion that psychopaths can be fixed? it seems to me that for not only the financial gain but the huge power trip would be reasons to promote the idea of fixing anybody, including psychopaths.
when the world is filled with normal persons (like me) with the same morals and motivations, I can exist in a world where I feel safe, it is a more predictable place to live. its about control and ignorance and clinging to dogma, an inflexible mindset too lazy to learn anything new.
not everything or everyone can or should be "fixed". it is extremely arrogant to believe otherwise.
What I mean by that is that there is a habit of trying to make psychopaths into something that we are not. It suits a narrative, or it makes the person feel better about something that they don't understand to begin with. If they reframe it in terms that are inaccurate, but terms that make sense to their comfort, they are happy to do so, ignoring the facts of the matter.
The need to think that one understands the world and other people can be traced as the root cause of a lot of strange beliefs IMO - from wild psychological theories to superstitions and conspiracy theories.
In the case of the hug-a-psychopath article, there was also a lot of sexual tension. The typical problem for therapists is transference and how to deal with it, i.e. patients developing feelings for the therapist and how to keep it cool; that article was more along the lines of stoking the fire.
The article was a perfect description of the plot of every romance book: the rugged hero with a rough exterior and a traumatic past meets the heroine who unlocks his heart of gold with the power of her magic hoohaa. I saw it described in the book A Billion Wicked Thoughts, which was pretty funny.
Yup :) Great book. They datamined boatloads of online information to see what people really like and combined that with psychology to interpret the results. The premise is that the typical problem of studies on sex is that people give unreliable information (either due to lying/embellishment or not understanding themselves) but nowadays we have the internet, and google search histories / porn / romance book consumption data don't lie. They explore various aspects of people's sex drives and interests based on the data.
Most of the stuff there won't be personally relevant to you but I think it's a treasure trove of information if one seeks to understand people better, and it's just plain funny and interesting.
for a long time, i tried to understand why what happened to me happened, and why the people who abused me did what they did. but i was not able to actually move forward from my trauma until i realized that my closure with them was that i was not like them, i would never understand why they did what they did, and that that realization *was* my closure.
it seems as though similar thinking could be applied here.
I can understand that perspective. Trying to see why people do terrible things when those things are outside our own comprehension can be difficult. It is important to remind ourselves that because we cannot comprehend all the thoughts that another has, it also means that those thoughts bear no responsibility in our lives. Consequences, yes, but no responsibility.
Wow, I realise writing this it's going to be too long but I find your thoughts inspiring:
That is very thoughtful, profound. I do not have an understanding of NT's so I do not think I really know why they do that. But they seem to have an extraordinarily limited world view. They seem to consider what is in their lives as the full bounds of reality in my view. If you say something as relevant as "The Nordstream Pipelines was blown up". They literally have no idea unless they have some specific reason to know and they seem to be a little intimidated by someone even bringing it up.
So I can see them twisting things around to think things through like that.
NT's also have something that I don't. When someone says things they automatically believe it without question. I think this is amazing personally. They also do that thing talked about by George Orwell. "The good thinker knows the correct attitude to take without taking thought". I have watched colleagues before all talk down what a government body said because it disagreed with the stated centre left pro their business objectives. To me, I did not expect this I thought NT's were unfailingly loyal to the government if that's what their tribe said? But instead, it was them talking the government body down and me thinking "Wait, on what basis are you saying that what that government body says is innaccurate? Do you not expect people that work in that area to have some expertise and know more than you?"
I always thought women liked to watch documentaries on serial killers, because it allows women to excite themselves sexually, to get close to that danger they crave, without actually engaging with it.
De fanging the psychopath seems a bit like enabling that a lot of NT's love to do. They also don't like the negative emotion of pointing out logical conclusions about others negative behaviour. Perhaps it's because they have emotional empathy, thus when discussing these areas they feel a negative emotion and thus... they want to escape the moment and insight? Perhaps some of them can't experience negative emotion at all head on. So they only experience it indirectly? When they do irrational things and have conflict that has dragged on for years longer than it should.
Perhaps in a tribal sense as well. If you are pointing out negative behaviours of others. The conclusion is that you should do something about it. Perhaps they do not want to confront the idea that violence may be the logical solution? If I say "Person b engaged in xyz that lead to an extremely negative outcome for a, and will likely lead to additional negative outcomes in the future; the most logical solution to this is to beat up person b?" They do not want to deal with that? Just guessing.
But then in cultures where that is the norm it is the norm.
But none of this gets me closer to why they want to believe that a psychopath is a puppy that was never loved. The need to care for said psychopath? The maternal instinct gone awry?
It takes the psychopath out of the realm of totally incomprehensible to the realm of tamable. That makes us safe and controllable. That make us something that can be contained.
I agree. Transforming something dangerous to something that can be contained, or at least understood. (Even though that understanding is totally wrong.)
But that would mean NT's, and I think it is better to specify the less functional and intelligent NT's. Have the mindset of children. Surely it is part of growing up to realise that we don't understand everything. That we are not gods.
I wish that were the case, but most people do not even consider that their worldview is nothing more than that, 'their' worldview. They assume it is shared by the masses, and without questioning that position, they will go forward with an unfounded level of confidence that they are correct about nearly everything. It may be one of the reasons that people are so resistant to being wrong about something.
I encountered an excellent example of this today, where the person is so convinced that her boyfriend (which may or may not actually exist in reality) is a psychopathic, sociopathic, schizophrenic, depressed, person who is obsessed with her. I don't know if she has imagined this person, or if she has fallen for a pack of lies by someone that takes pleasure in whatever attention it nets the.
However, the result is literally hundreds of repetitious comments on my answers that proclaim that this "boyfriend" can feel love, sadness, depression, obsession, empathy, etc, all in relation to her, but no one else. Because I challenge the narrative that she has herself convinced of, I am obviously a fake that has to be "educated" with by the truth that is her boyfriend, who in her mind, is the definition of psychopathy.
Another option is schizophrenic types for the symptomology of the person she is describing. Schizoid can't access their own emotions so at times, the lack of empathy (in actual fact "hidden" empathy) and "psychopathic" symptoms can be convincing. But they can access their emotions after a lot of meditation, dream interpretation etc. Which is my belief of why Elinor talks about them being obsessed with metaphysics.
You find a suitable girl and a schizophrenic spectrum guy and you have a recipe for a lot of drama.
On the larger point though, the amount of game theory like defenses I have for when NT's have their core beliefs challenged is... It is a lot. When it happens on a larger societal level, and it will, yeah, it will be a big deal imo. I wonder if some people will ever recover.
There are still people in ex Soviet countries obsessed with communism and the soviet union because it did not suit their beliefs to have the end of the Soviet Union.
Speaking as a woman who watches TV about serial killers, it's because they get caught. They get stopped. There is a deep satisfaction (and semi reassurance) in watching them get "their comeuppance."
Oh yes, that makes a great deal of sense. That really tracks with a lot of what I have seen of womens psychology. I saw a psychology study from the twitter account @DegenRolf the other day saying that women are far more likely statistically to cheat based on wanting to get revenge on their partner and I have seen various other things such as women not wanting their partner to be happy after they have broken up with them.
I think there's a lot more diversity of feelings and reactions involved than you seem to be commenting about. Also, the desire to "hit back" in some way at someone who has hurt you is likely commonplace among all genders. It's very human.
This was well written and yes I really appreciate your questions here. My philosophy is that NT's are actually addicted to rationalizations. Lol, they can go a week without sex or comfort etcetera but I don't think they can go 1week without at least 1juicy rationalization. It's understandable to want to understand the world we live in and the people in it I guess but everyone keeps secrets and really there is no understanding just acceptance.
One thing you left out. As you know, my father was a generous, kind, and totally non-violent man until he was 65 and brutally killed my stepmother and threw her body out the window of their 12th floor NYC apartment. He could not explain it, but his MRI and PET scans did. He had a giant brain cyst on his frontal and temporal lobes. He has been studied by all the top experts in the neurolaw field. Your brain, as you know, is not the same as a neurotypical's. I believe there are a LOT of people who have brain abnormalities/characteristics that cause them to do things that we can't figure out the reason for, and even they can't figure out the reason for. The Brain Defense by Kevin Davis is a great book on this. And for a more intimate look at my father's case, my book, Full Frontal Murder Memoir is very insightful and changes the way people view brains and blame. And I would love to hear about the LSD and naked people!
Ha! Yes! Do tell the LSD naked people story, please. I love your work. You have given me such an understanding of how the psychopathic mind works. When I have an over-emotional response to something (which is frequent), I think to myself 'Be more Athena'.
Totally agree. Accepting the differences is the first step. It’s then far easier for an NT to appreciate strengths in psychopaths that we could adopt to improve our own lives and relationships, and vice versa.
Agree and well said! And you are right people cling to world views including religion to feel safe I think and that includes those whose brain chemistry or psychology or walk of life radically differs from the crowd.
Oh Athena I would definitely like to hear about the LSD people psychopathy study! That would be interesting. A few months ago I did a deep dive into Ayahuasca (I know not the same thing but still a hallucinogen 😉) and one of the guys described the experience as a empathogenic (or some term along those lines) and of course that intrigued me. Being a reader and follower of your work it's obvious that hallucinogens won't make a bit of difference bc the brain is still wired completely different but it's an intriguing thought. 🤔 Empathy is a tricky thing for some especially with those of us among the cluster b spectrum and/or have CPTSD. Some say these drugs help and some say just no way, I myself have done LSD and it was scary and overwhelming tbh. Thank you for your diligence in continuing educating us here! 🤜
Athena: I most definitely would like to hear LSD trials in trying to defang psychopathy. I’ve often thought whether criminals with low functioning (maybe psychopath maybe not, just low functions criminals in general) tendencies like aggression and impulsivity could benefit from psychedelics.
*Dr Jordan Peterson discusses his home country of Canada, which the professor believes has been taken over by Left-wing authoritarians and predatory psychopaths.* Listen to this bonus episode of Off Script hosted by The Telegraph's Steven Edginton. *Jordan Peterson on The decline and fall of Canada* Why does the situation appear particularly grim, here in Maple Leaf Country? We were, for most of my country’s history, miraculously and thankfully dull: our constitution, ensconced safely under British authority until 1982, enshrined “peace, order and good government” as the most basic principles of our dominion. This was not the clarion call ringing out to rally our good friends south of the border, who aimed at the much more dramatic and libertarian “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” It was good enough, however, to produce a reliable, safe, secure and free state, conservative in the classic small-c sense, with institutions both predictable and honest, and an economy both productive and generous. That all started to change in the 1980s. Our dashing prime minister, Pierre Elliot Trudeau – father of the current Prime Minister, our current clown prince – was searching desperately for a legacy and for a solution to the chronic problem posed by the Quebec separatists, who were genuinely threatening the integrity of the country. Quebec was the last feudal country in the West: extremely traditional and dominated by a very small, tight, essentially hereditary elite right until the end of the 1950s. Quebec dumped all that in a few short years in a fit of 1960’s freedom, also dropping its birth and marriage rate with exceptional rapidity (both are now among the lowest in the world) and abandoning the Catholic church in favour of a crude nationalism and a more-or-less socialist utopia favoured by those who pushed to also tear apart the country.
Oh I'm definitely down to hear about naked people on LSD being tied together. I can't imagine what would be considered a good outcome for doing that. I wonder what LSD does to a psychopath anyway?
All right, good to know
I have a family member who is a psychopath and wrote books about peyote and LSD. He also spent a lot of time naked having sex on LSD while listening to Wagner’s Ring Trilogy. None of that changed his basic nature. So, I think he would think it a hoot to have doctors give him great pure psychedelics and tie him up naked to another person. Knowing him, it would not be his empathy that was rising.
Yeah... it didn't seem to have any effect on the "psychopaths" at all, provided that they actually were psychopathic, but with the diagnostics at the time, who knows? It was certainly an interesting experiment, however,
'He also spent a lot of time naked having sex on LSD while listening to Wagner’s Ring Trilogy.' Hillarious scenario.
My reaction exactly!!
I have tried LSD and really enjoyed the experience. Apples on the tree had a lot to say actually. It surprized me my co-trippers did not expect to have sex while tripping. I associate doing drugs with sex - acid included.
Bondage hasn't been my thing, but I am willing to try if the acid is good!!
As a side note in my experience bondage as a fetish centers on trust and trust issues. Being as I don't experience trust I don't personally understand the attraction.
Please feel free to always post fetish and such commentary.
I didn't associate trust with bondage:
but as I thought about your comment, I do remember two partners who were interested or found some interest or excitement from bondage.
Unfortunately, I recall pushing it "too hard" and it all ended rather abruptly. Yes, perhaps it was a trust thing? I pushed past the trust; my partner went full panic. And full stop. Wow.
Thanks for your post:
Some of this is fear, but some is influenced by our Judeo-Christian culture, which asserts that every person is redeemable within that framework. I have tried to explain to religious friends that a psychopath cannot be "saved" in the way that they insist, as a psychopath is incapable of feeling remorse. They find it difficult to accept this and insist that if touched by God, a psychopath would feel remorse, disregarding any discussion of impossibility. Accepting that primary factor one psychopaths are born this way and are fine as they are is anathema to them, as it would challenge their worldview. I mention that a psychopath could potentially experience cognitive remorse through cognitive empathy, but I can't fathom the need for it. I have encountered someone who claims to be psychopath and a Christian, though I didn't follow up on this to find out if maybe they were secondary factor two psychopathy, which would make more sense. It seems there is a desire to save psychopaths, who often possess significant charm and attractiveness. As one of my friends said, "I have to believe that everyone can be saved".
"There was actually a study that was done specifically to try to attempt defanging psychopaths in a nearly literal sense. It involved LSD and tying naked people together. Let me know if you guys want to hear about it. It’s kind of a wild ride."
Sounds fascinating, Athena. I'd love to hear about it!
So right! Ugh the religious can be tedious can't they?
Idealogues are what are tedious in my estimation
The religious Christians I know are genuine, and good-natured. They do tend to be resistant to having their worldview challenged. It's not limited to the religious; many people, if not most, exhibit this tendency to some degree. We may end up having to agree to disagree but at least we can do so without any acrimony, which is nice. But, the belief that someone like a psychopath is "lost", and will eventually turn to God is deeply ingrained and difficult to shake. Similar dogmatic thinking might be observed in certain psychological schools of thought, where the notion of being "lost" and subsequently "found" persists. This trope seems to transcend different belief systems.
I don't know if they do have to believe that everyone can be saved. Perhaps they don't want to think about it. They literally go to church to "be saved", and therefore, they don't have to think. There are about a billion things that create a problem in their belief system but they don't think about any of them. When a Christian says asks me to debate by using scripture. I do it by using scripture. If I prove them wrong about whatever the point is I never hear from them again. They do not have good faith or even, truly, I suspect, on a deep level a real belief (some do but not all). They just don't want to have to think.
The Pharisees professed their beliefs endlessly about various things but Jesus still saw through them. As will be the case in any "second coming".
I am also Christian as a disclaimer, but not in a way that the local mainstream Church would accept.
I can't speak for Christians in general, but the specific group of religious individuals I'm referring to are Evangelicals. I know very little about their perspective on Christianity. However, these particular individuals were raised by missionaries, which instilled in them a literal belief that everyone can be saved. While they may not be unique in holding this belief, it does shape their worldview and approach to discussions.
i think this is a good point. i was raised southern baptist and have heard this viewpoint many times (still hear it often, though i'm not a part of it myself). it was almost a game, tallying up how many people you had 'saved' that week in church.
Great article. I agree that for some people they need to explain the motive for bad behaviour. Bad behaviour without motive just doesn’t fit within the NT world view at all.
I also don’t think we understand the concept of boredom. Our boredom is different so bad behaviour ‘because it alleviated the boredom’ doesn’t fully compute. There must be something else, a different motive, a hidden motive. I have wondered about the boredom of the psychopath. The conclusion I drew was that psychopaths are bored because emotional empathy is absent. If I looked at my day and recorded every thought I had, most of the thoughts that weren’t task related would involve the bonds I have to other people. I might worry about a friend who is having relationship difficulties, ponder how my son’s day is going at school, mull over a problem at work another person is having, plan a holiday whilst remembering fondly the last holiday with my family. My thoughts are populated by emotional ties and bonds. If I removed all of those emotional thoughts there would be a huge amount of free band width. I think this is where the psychopath’s boredom comes in.
I think some people also have a need to defang the psychopath because actually they care. They genuinely see the lack of emotional empathy as a ‘missing out’. They love, have experienced love and they can’t imagine going through life not experiencing that feeling to its fullest extent. It’s not a done with a ‘superior’ attitude. It’s done because they genuinely care and feel that the psychopath should experience full spectrum of emotions that they experience. They value those emotions and hope that by defanging, or having faith that a defanging might some day be possible, the psychopath will get to experience emotional ties in a similar way. Technically it’s a grandiose ‘ my world view is better’. I don’t think that’s the intention though, at least not always.
I get that. I consider the different experiences of NTs and psychopaths to be rather complementary. Instead of seeing one or the other as lacking, seeing each other as parts of a puzzle that works better together than in opposition.
Thankyou, that was a very good explanation of NT's internal states that is obviously missing in my own perspective if you have read my posts. I would say that I shall have to try and replicate that emotional sense when considering NT's, but I cannot do that. Yet.
It also makes me realise why people get uncomfortable around me. If I say "x person will not do y (ethical thing!) because, why would they? This can be proven through actions abc". This is a lack of an emotional bond that alarms the NT.
I don't know what my issue is (I don't think it's psychopathy) but I lack emotional empathy to an extent, but not up to not experiencing grief I don't think.
I don't think about any of these things. I have never once in my life thought that people that did not have emotional empathy and it's correlating disadvantages were "missing out".
It also adds to my ongoing realisation of why narcissists have such luck manipulating NT's. Narcissist are very, very good at communicating emotionally. It has seemed to me more and more that narcissism is emotional empathy taken to it's logical conclusion. The narcissist proports to care about others, and hence tries to control their behaviour. "For their own benefit". It's like empathy without logic. So they can get away with saying nasty things about others in the guise of being empathetic.
This might even tie into your last sentence.
But if someone like me comes along and says "look, this person is a prick" this didn't include the prerequisite emotional manipulation (which includes a lot of emotional labour!). Therefore it is not received well by the NT. I suppose a psychopath that does take the time for the "prerequisite emotional manipulation" is very frightening for the NT indeed.
Hi J.L.W.
I’m glad you found my comment of interest. I think you are absolutely right about narcissists and false empathy. Narcissists require the emotional feedback for validation, it powers them. As such, they do speak an emotional language, they have to. If you are an emotional person, it would first appear that you have found the ideal match. They notice what you notice, feel what you feel. It takes a while before you realise that actually they were simply mirroring your own emotion back at you. Nothing was genuine at all. That moment of realisation usually coincides with the commencement of your devaluation.
Socially, narcissists that present as the false empaths can generally be found in the ‘Be Kind’ brigade. Scratch the surface and what lies beneath is nothing like that kind, all inclusive exterior. The actions rarely match the words. They believe themselves to be empathic when really they are the complete opposite. It sounds to me that you are spotting the ‘false empath’ narcissist, calling it accurately but those around you are falling for the narcissist’s facade.
I think it’s the narcissist that is manipulative for the most part. They seek control whereas to my knowledge, the psychopath doesn’t need the control over people. They just don’t need people at all other than as a welcome diversion from the boredom they experience. That diversion I don’t think necessitates any need for control, or any need for a facade. I’m sure Athena will correct me there if I’m wrong.
I think there is a logic to the narcissist. They are motivated by the need for emotional feedback and control. The apparent empathy is just a means of acquiring those things. Sadly I think there is so much false empathy swishing around in the world at the moment people see all emotional empathy as false, and that’s a real shame. Genuine emotional empathy I think is a beautiful thing.
Interesting comment J.L.W. Thank you for taking the time to respond.
please describe "defanging a psychopath". does it mean making them more "normal?"
also, what is the take on all this of the mental health professionals? do the therapists, psychologists and psychiatrists reinforce the notion that psychopaths can be fixed? it seems to me that for not only the financial gain but the huge power trip would be reasons to promote the idea of fixing anybody, including psychopaths.
when the world is filled with normal persons (like me) with the same morals and motivations, I can exist in a world where I feel safe, it is a more predictable place to live. its about control and ignorance and clinging to dogma, an inflexible mindset too lazy to learn anything new.
not everything or everyone can or should be "fixed". it is extremely arrogant to believe otherwise.
What I mean by that is that there is a habit of trying to make psychopaths into something that we are not. It suits a narrative, or it makes the person feel better about something that they don't understand to begin with. If they reframe it in terms that are inaccurate, but terms that make sense to their comfort, they are happy to do so, ignoring the facts of the matter.
Exactly. Terms that make sense to their worldview and therefore their comfort.
Hi Athena, great post as always.
The need to think that one understands the world and other people can be traced as the root cause of a lot of strange beliefs IMO - from wild psychological theories to superstitions and conspiracy theories.
In the case of the hug-a-psychopath article, there was also a lot of sexual tension. The typical problem for therapists is transference and how to deal with it, i.e. patients developing feelings for the therapist and how to keep it cool; that article was more along the lines of stoking the fire.
The article was a perfect description of the plot of every romance book: the rugged hero with a rough exterior and a traumatic past meets the heroine who unlocks his heart of gold with the power of her magic hoohaa. I saw it described in the book A Billion Wicked Thoughts, which was pretty funny.
A, Billion Wicked Thoughts, huh?
Sounds about right.
Yup :) Great book. They datamined boatloads of online information to see what people really like and combined that with psychology to interpret the results. The premise is that the typical problem of studies on sex is that people give unreliable information (either due to lying/embellishment or not understanding themselves) but nowadays we have the internet, and google search histories / porn / romance book consumption data don't lie. They explore various aspects of people's sex drives and interests based on the data.
Most of the stuff there won't be personally relevant to you but I think it's a treasure trove of information if one seeks to understand people better, and it's just plain funny and interesting.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9551126-a-billion-wicked-thoughts?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=jJVrPig4vm&rank=1
Thank you for the link
for a long time, i tried to understand why what happened to me happened, and why the people who abused me did what they did. but i was not able to actually move forward from my trauma until i realized that my closure with them was that i was not like them, i would never understand why they did what they did, and that that realization *was* my closure.
it seems as though similar thinking could be applied here.
I can understand that perspective. Trying to see why people do terrible things when those things are outside our own comprehension can be difficult. It is important to remind ourselves that because we cannot comprehend all the thoughts that another has, it also means that those thoughts bear no responsibility in our lives. Consequences, yes, but no responsibility.
precisely this ^
Wow, I realise writing this it's going to be too long but I find your thoughts inspiring:
That is very thoughtful, profound. I do not have an understanding of NT's so I do not think I really know why they do that. But they seem to have an extraordinarily limited world view. They seem to consider what is in their lives as the full bounds of reality in my view. If you say something as relevant as "The Nordstream Pipelines was blown up". They literally have no idea unless they have some specific reason to know and they seem to be a little intimidated by someone even bringing it up.
So I can see them twisting things around to think things through like that.
NT's also have something that I don't. When someone says things they automatically believe it without question. I think this is amazing personally. They also do that thing talked about by George Orwell. "The good thinker knows the correct attitude to take without taking thought". I have watched colleagues before all talk down what a government body said because it disagreed with the stated centre left pro their business objectives. To me, I did not expect this I thought NT's were unfailingly loyal to the government if that's what their tribe said? But instead, it was them talking the government body down and me thinking "Wait, on what basis are you saying that what that government body says is innaccurate? Do you not expect people that work in that area to have some expertise and know more than you?"
I always thought women liked to watch documentaries on serial killers, because it allows women to excite themselves sexually, to get close to that danger they crave, without actually engaging with it.
De fanging the psychopath seems a bit like enabling that a lot of NT's love to do. They also don't like the negative emotion of pointing out logical conclusions about others negative behaviour. Perhaps it's because they have emotional empathy, thus when discussing these areas they feel a negative emotion and thus... they want to escape the moment and insight? Perhaps some of them can't experience negative emotion at all head on. So they only experience it indirectly? When they do irrational things and have conflict that has dragged on for years longer than it should.
Perhaps in a tribal sense as well. If you are pointing out negative behaviours of others. The conclusion is that you should do something about it. Perhaps they do not want to confront the idea that violence may be the logical solution? If I say "Person b engaged in xyz that lead to an extremely negative outcome for a, and will likely lead to additional negative outcomes in the future; the most logical solution to this is to beat up person b?" They do not want to deal with that? Just guessing.
But then in cultures where that is the norm it is the norm.
But none of this gets me closer to why they want to believe that a psychopath is a puppy that was never loved. The need to care for said psychopath? The maternal instinct gone awry?
It takes the psychopath out of the realm of totally incomprehensible to the realm of tamable. That makes us safe and controllable. That make us something that can be contained.
I agree. Transforming something dangerous to something that can be contained, or at least understood. (Even though that understanding is totally wrong.)
? OK,
But that would mean NT's, and I think it is better to specify the less functional and intelligent NT's. Have the mindset of children. Surely it is part of growing up to realise that we don't understand everything. That we are not gods.
I wish that were the case, but most people do not even consider that their worldview is nothing more than that, 'their' worldview. They assume it is shared by the masses, and without questioning that position, they will go forward with an unfounded level of confidence that they are correct about nearly everything. It may be one of the reasons that people are so resistant to being wrong about something.
I encountered an excellent example of this today, where the person is so convinced that her boyfriend (which may or may not actually exist in reality) is a psychopathic, sociopathic, schizophrenic, depressed, person who is obsessed with her. I don't know if she has imagined this person, or if she has fallen for a pack of lies by someone that takes pleasure in whatever attention it nets the.
However, the result is literally hundreds of repetitious comments on my answers that proclaim that this "boyfriend" can feel love, sadness, depression, obsession, empathy, etc, all in relation to her, but no one else. Because I challenge the narrative that she has herself convinced of, I am obviously a fake that has to be "educated" with by the truth that is her boyfriend, who in her mind, is the definition of psychopathy.
Another option is schizophrenic types for the symptomology of the person she is describing. Schizoid can't access their own emotions so at times, the lack of empathy (in actual fact "hidden" empathy) and "psychopathic" symptoms can be convincing. But they can access their emotions after a lot of meditation, dream interpretation etc. Which is my belief of why Elinor talks about them being obsessed with metaphysics.
You find a suitable girl and a schizophrenic spectrum guy and you have a recipe for a lot of drama.
On the larger point though, the amount of game theory like defenses I have for when NT's have their core beliefs challenged is... It is a lot. When it happens on a larger societal level, and it will, yeah, it will be a big deal imo. I wonder if some people will ever recover.
There are still people in ex Soviet countries obsessed with communism and the soviet union because it did not suit their beliefs to have the end of the Soviet Union.
Speaking as a woman who watches TV about serial killers, it's because they get caught. They get stopped. There is a deep satisfaction (and semi reassurance) in watching them get "their comeuppance."
Oh yes, that makes a great deal of sense. That really tracks with a lot of what I have seen of womens psychology. I saw a psychology study from the twitter account @DegenRolf the other day saying that women are far more likely statistically to cheat based on wanting to get revenge on their partner and I have seen various other things such as women not wanting their partner to be happy after they have broken up with them.
I think there's a lot more diversity of feelings and reactions involved than you seem to be commenting about. Also, the desire to "hit back" in some way at someone who has hurt you is likely commonplace among all genders. It's very human.
I would agree with that
This was well written and yes I really appreciate your questions here. My philosophy is that NT's are actually addicted to rationalizations. Lol, they can go a week without sex or comfort etcetera but I don't think they can go 1week without at least 1juicy rationalization. It's understandable to want to understand the world we live in and the people in it I guess but everyone keeps secrets and really there is no understanding just acceptance.
I think that there can be more understanding than people think, but less understanding than what people wish for.
Another one of your enlightening articles. Thank you. What do you think of the characterisation of psychopaths by Ms. Elinor Greenberg? What could be your objections to her list? She says that she is strong on the Dark Triad but not psychopathy. https://bitsofwisdom.quora.com/How-do-I-differentiate-malignant-narcissists-and-psychopaths
Her list seems fairly reasonable
One thing you left out. As you know, my father was a generous, kind, and totally non-violent man until he was 65 and brutally killed my stepmother and threw her body out the window of their 12th floor NYC apartment. He could not explain it, but his MRI and PET scans did. He had a giant brain cyst on his frontal and temporal lobes. He has been studied by all the top experts in the neurolaw field. Your brain, as you know, is not the same as a neurotypical's. I believe there are a LOT of people who have brain abnormalities/characteristics that cause them to do things that we can't figure out the reason for, and even they can't figure out the reason for. The Brain Defense by Kevin Davis is a great book on this. And for a more intimate look at my father's case, my book, Full Frontal Murder Memoir is very insightful and changes the way people view brains and blame. And I would love to hear about the LSD and naked people!
Ha! Yes! Do tell the LSD naked people story, please. I love your work. You have given me such an understanding of how the psychopathic mind works. When I have an over-emotional response to something (which is frequent), I think to myself 'Be more Athena'.
Totally agree. Accepting the differences is the first step. It’s then far easier for an NT to appreciate strengths in psychopaths that we could adopt to improve our own lives and relationships, and vice versa.
Definitely want to hear about tied up people tripping balls 🤓
Excellent
Agree and well said! And you are right people cling to world views including religion to feel safe I think and that includes those whose brain chemistry or psychology or walk of life radically differs from the crowd.
Indeed
Oh Athena I would definitely like to hear about the LSD people psychopathy study! That would be interesting. A few months ago I did a deep dive into Ayahuasca (I know not the same thing but still a hallucinogen 😉) and one of the guys described the experience as a empathogenic (or some term along those lines) and of course that intrigued me. Being a reader and follower of your work it's obvious that hallucinogens won't make a bit of difference bc the brain is still wired completely different but it's an intriguing thought. 🤔 Empathy is a tricky thing for some especially with those of us among the cluster b spectrum and/or have CPTSD. Some say these drugs help and some say just no way, I myself have done LSD and it was scary and overwhelming tbh. Thank you for your diligence in continuing educating us here! 🤜
I will write about it
Athena: I most definitely would like to hear LSD trials in trying to defang psychopathy. I’ve often thought whether criminals with low functioning (maybe psychopath maybe not, just low functions criminals in general) tendencies like aggression and impulsivity could benefit from psychedelics.
It is an interesting thing to consider
Dear Athena. Peterson's definition of psychopathy is wrong? I believe he is wrong when he equates psychopathy with narcissism.
https://youtu.be/6uNIfIe0wgE?si=OZ5qPuuObcf4UnIG
Jordan Peterson: Narcissist Justin Trudeau has never said a true word
27.255 visualizaciones 1 sept 2023 Off Script | Telegraph | Podcast
*Dr Jordan Peterson discusses his home country of Canada, which the professor believes has been taken over by Left-wing authoritarians and predatory psychopaths.* Listen to this bonus episode of Off Script hosted by The Telegraph's Steven Edginton. *Jordan Peterson on The decline and fall of Canada* Why does the situation appear particularly grim, here in Maple Leaf Country? We were, for most of my country’s history, miraculously and thankfully dull: our constitution, ensconced safely under British authority until 1982, enshrined “peace, order and good government” as the most basic principles of our dominion. This was not the clarion call ringing out to rally our good friends south of the border, who aimed at the much more dramatic and libertarian “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” It was good enough, however, to produce a reliable, safe, secure and free state, conservative in the classic small-c sense, with institutions both predictable and honest, and an economy both productive and generous. That all started to change in the 1980s. Our dashing prime minister, Pierre Elliot Trudeau – father of the current Prime Minister, our current clown prince – was searching desperately for a legacy and for a solution to the chronic problem posed by the Quebec separatists, who were genuinely threatening the integrity of the country. Quebec was the last feudal country in the West: extremely traditional and dominated by a very small, tight, essentially hereditary elite right until the end of the 1950s. Quebec dumped all that in a few short years in a fit of 1960’s freedom, also dropping its birth and marriage rate with exceptional rapidity (both are now among the lowest in the world) and abandoning the Catholic church in favour of a crude nationalism and a more-or-less socialist utopia favoured by those who pushed to also tear apart the country.
Yes, it is incorrect
Yes, incorrect. From Peterson as a psychiatrist it's surprising.