Well written, as usual. It seems that you do have a very small version of the NT’s disgust reaction. How to decipher what is intellectual and what is emotional must be very difficult. Your observational skills and ability to communicate and rationalize seem to help a lot. I’m so sorry your family has gone through such a horrible thing.
It would be interesting if you were to bite the bullet and attempt to eat balut. Or large live grubs. Just to see what happens with you and your response! (Having said that, I dont think I could eat either myself, and I am extremely unfussy.)
from your work: He should pay for what he did, and if he was killed by the relatives of that child, I would disagree with their actions, but I would understand them.
Not only do I "understand", I would encourage the relatives to select one from among them to reek revenge upon him. (Am I stealing this from my Jewish heritage? hehehe- maybe!)
I learn alot from your posts and enjoy your work, which hopefully you plan to continue.
BTW: I use expressions like "I'm glad ...." "I'm happy that ....". When some people say these things, do they actually experience emotion?
Even when I say these things, or when I write these, I don't actually "feel" anything as far as I can tell.
One day, I came home to find my girlfriend had sex with another man while I had been working. It is my belief that I didn't feel anything then. I got her calmed down and told her something or rather and went on with the relationship. After awhile we separated, but not over that.
Yes, people do experience those emotions when they speak them. When you are removed from those deeper emotional experience, you life will still be bound by neurotypical language.
The more I learn, the more I think PsychoPathic brains are "better", certainly more powerful.
I understand what you mean by "bound"- but doesn't it just mean we learned their language, expressions and idioms? Like learning Spanish or any other language?
It appears we often came to understand them ("we" being any level of less emotional experience) but usually they can't, or simply don't, understand us. Perhaps a NT brain doesn't have enough space (RAM in comparable computer jargon) to understand?
I agree that expressions like 'I'm glad' and 'I'm happy that' reflect a cognitive assessment of the situation and very often have no accompanying emotion.
In my mind decision to take revenge or not should also lay in the hands of relatives of the victim (or the victim itself if he/she lives).
Expanding the thought led to those observations considering if state should be involed at all or not (mayby problematic issues that might need solution):
1)
What is the limit of the punishment and who should decide it?
Obvious answer is: up to the same harm that was done... but...
what if the deed done can't be mirrored back (i.e. rape - victim raping back the predator seems nonsensical). Also - seems that "harm scale" is both non linear and very subjective.
2)
Also - those people could not have "tools" to get that perceived justice. Offender can just have much more power over victims whole family that they simply will not be able to do anything (or just simply ran away and is unreachable, etc.)
Here - state could help bring the offender to the same level of power as victims (just my initial thought - there also might be some flaws here that i do not see).
3)
Let's say that we managed to get in situation where victim has option to take revenge. To prevent initial emotional decision to me it seems that it would require some buffor time before the victim can execute. For example - they both sit in one room for X hours (if they are alowed to talk is debatable) and only after this time victim can decide and mayby proceed. What intention here i have in mind is that the victim should have time to understand that the punishment he/she is about to deliver may have long term consequences and should consider them and not just go with the initial impulse.
And on the other hand if state would not be involved at all things are much simpler:
1) Victim decides about the punishment (this can lead to endless circle of taking revenge though but that's life i guess)
2) It is victims problem to get enough power in time and take revenge (it may take years but gives life goal i guess?)
3) Victim can do whatever in any moment they like.
Personally - my vote goes to state not beeing involved at all (or in very limited ways) because it seems more natural. And even from emotional perspective it makes more sense too - only people involved in situation will try to take action (as oposed to for example judge that is in no way conected has to decide about something).
I think that the people as a whole decide what the punishment should be, thus the creation of the social contract. Everyone that lives within that society have agreed that by living there they are agreeing to the rules. The power then lies with the populace.
The state should be the will of the people, but societies have taught us that the state often has its own agenda, so the people should not grant them the power over life and death.
Revenge has little positive benefit. It may be psychologically soothing for some, but for many it would be something that would eat away at them emotionally, causing more pain than a being a salve.
You summarized that very well!! Maine stopped the death penalty in 1887 as the result of a botched execution- witnessed by the victim's family and the Governor who were disgusted by the horrific spectacle. Just like you write now.
Savannah, good morning. Hey. For me, the cheating was unfortunate, but it did not end my relationship. I found out when the guy left his phone number on the nightstand, in our home: a one night stand that did not return.
I certainly wasn't mad at the guy. I talked with her. Then dropped it.
You experience disgust, but do not automatically form a higher abstract meaning to it.
This is somewhat context driven, for example, my half ‘n half was spoiled and so had a rank stink, but I didn’t assign a moral value to this.
However, sometimes we automatically assign moral meaning when someone does something we imagine would be disgusting, such as some kinds of sexual behavior we might not dare entertain.
They “must be perverted, evil, messed up” because they like it.
But, the color Red, pleasant or unpleasant, beautiful or ugly doesn’t exist in objective reality, just ask my Cat about lemons, she’ll tell you they stink like a catbox if she could.
Yet this drives body shame in our exposure of our mucous membranes, or smelly parts.
Becoming aware of pathogens, then assigning shame to sources of pathogens, or obsession with the “unclean” in the Old Testament
It’s a story of awareness of hygiene
In Genesis 3:6-8 we read: “when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.” (Genesis 3:6-8)
Now compare this with their original creation state in Genesis 2:25 where we read “they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
Awareness of self, and finding that self to be inadequate in the eyes of God. However, as God is more and more removed from society and people's lives, society itself, and it's judgment that now stands in God's stead in the eyes of those seeking his approval.
At least that seems to be a reasonable interpretation of the verse and it's implications in our modern world.
Athena!! You comment on Bible verses!! Wow. it must be fun to speak to you in person. Very few people can talk about religion and Bible verses without getting worked up and emotional. EVEN those who seek to discredit Bible or religion are mostly incredibility boring and un-imaginative and speak with the same "conviction" as the most vocal evangelist. U however? -smiles-
I may have told this story in Quora but I'm not sure
I have cattle and several years back a cow died near the edge of the pond. It was several days before I found her.
I get on my tractor and go to drag the carcass away to someplace where I can burn it and it was really rank. It was hot that summer and the cow had already bloated
Anyway, hooked the chain up and started to drag her and the body came apart.
The smell hit me and I experienced a reaction in what I refer to as my lizard brain.
In order to continue I got a bandana to cover my face and used Vick's salve to overpower the smell
I never felt any real emotion, it was strictly a violent physical reaction to the smell of decay. However it was a really strong reaction
BTW I can't take zombie movies seriously as I know that the dead could never sneak up on you, they'd fall apart fairly rapidly and they'd be preyed on from everything from vultures to opossums. :D
That's where hypothetical magic comes in. Say a curse or some such stuff kicks in only after some amount of time that passes since death and during that time they were rotting peacefully but from the moment of activation it is all stopped, something like conservation. Centuries ago unquiet dead were accused of not decomposing (and don't even get me started on the whole conundrum of materiality or immateriality and two souls and harming from afar or up close) and thus suspiciously intact corpses got mutiliated in all sorts of ways. Then vampires and werewolves became its own things and zombies separated as corpsy-corpse. I must also not forget african tardition of drugging and burrying for a short while to create what lended them their name - so in practise living disheveled brain-damaged and traumatized human.
Then there are infection movies like Resident evil. It does count as zombie movie series, doesn't it?
Yes, they do, but those in Resident evil movies are still decomposing, so they too would fall apart sooner or later. 28 days later had living people infected by rage, who then starved to death after a time, but it seemed to me that they should have been taken out by dehydration much faster.
Why burning instead of just burrying where you found it? Was it because of the pond or there is a regulation that demands every such corpse is burned properly or something else?
Cremation was both easier and more certain not to risk further pollution of water sources. You need a big backhoe to dig a grave for an 1100 pound cow in a timely manner :P
I like Zombie movies where they are meant to represent something else: Like Racists or Nazis. "Ben" was killed by Bigots at the end of "The Night of the Living Dead"
oh, wait!! Ben survived the Zombies but was murdered by Bigots!! haha.
Until you pointed it out a while back, I had not thought clearly about how even though some people absolutely deserve the death penalty, it is a mistake to ever give the State that power. Now I realise that any discomfort I might have still had about the death penalty, which I broadly approved of, had nothing to do with the justness of the punishment but rather the risks in handing over such a power and it's potential for misuse. I'm kind of embarrassed not to have thought of this aspect before. Probably because I was putting myself in the position of the affected family who had a very reasonable desire for vengeance and that was all I could think of. So yeah, thanks for writing about this..
Oh yes, it's great. I have memories of my own cognitive development as a very small child, just not understanding things, and then the brain grows and new things become comprehensible- time, consequences, numbers, perspective, all sorts of stuff. I found the process amazing back then. So finding new things to consider is a way of continuing a similar enjoyment through adulthood. The clink of the penny dropping.
Well written, as usual. It seems that you do have a very small version of the NT’s disgust reaction. How to decipher what is intellectual and what is emotional must be very difficult. Your observational skills and ability to communicate and rationalize seem to help a lot. I’m so sorry your family has gone through such a horrible thing.
That's very kind of you.
Indeed there is some shadow of the NT disgust response.
It would be interesting if you were to bite the bullet and attempt to eat balut. Or large live grubs. Just to see what happens with you and your response! (Having said that, I dont think I could eat either myself, and I am extremely unfussy.)
Yeah, not happening. Live grubs don't have the same response as balut for me though.
I squirm just from looking at live fat grubs, repulsive. Oh well!
from your work: He should pay for what he did, and if he was killed by the relatives of that child, I would disagree with their actions, but I would understand them.
Not only do I "understand", I would encourage the relatives to select one from among them to reek revenge upon him. (Am I stealing this from my Jewish heritage? hehehe- maybe!)
I learn alot from your posts and enjoy your work, which hopefully you plan to continue.
BTW: I use expressions like "I'm glad ...." "I'm happy that ....". When some people say these things, do they actually experience emotion?
Even when I say these things, or when I write these, I don't actually "feel" anything as far as I can tell.
One day, I came home to find my girlfriend had sex with another man while I had been working. It is my belief that I didn't feel anything then. I got her calmed down and told her something or rather and went on with the relationship. After awhile we separated, but not over that.
Yes, people do experience those emotions when they speak them. When you are removed from those deeper emotional experience, you life will still be bound by neurotypical language.
Not always. Sometimes, even in people who feel deeply, they are just unthough about expressions that indicate a cognitive attitide.
The more I learn, the more I think PsychoPathic brains are "better", certainly more powerful.
I understand what you mean by "bound"- but doesn't it just mean we learned their language, expressions and idioms? Like learning Spanish or any other language?
It appears we often came to understand them ("we" being any level of less emotional experience) but usually they can't, or simply don't, understand us. Perhaps a NT brain doesn't have enough space (RAM in comparable computer jargon) to understand?
I think that psychopaths and neurotypicals are complementary of one another. One needs the other to have a productive world.
-smiles-
Yes!! Exactly!! Independent of outcomes: "superior"
I agree that expressions like 'I'm glad' and 'I'm happy that' reflect a cognitive assessment of the situation and very often have no accompanying emotion.
This part also cought me thinking.
In my mind decision to take revenge or not should also lay in the hands of relatives of the victim (or the victim itself if he/she lives).
Expanding the thought led to those observations considering if state should be involed at all or not (mayby problematic issues that might need solution):
1)
What is the limit of the punishment and who should decide it?
Obvious answer is: up to the same harm that was done... but...
what if the deed done can't be mirrored back (i.e. rape - victim raping back the predator seems nonsensical). Also - seems that "harm scale" is both non linear and very subjective.
2)
Also - those people could not have "tools" to get that perceived justice. Offender can just have much more power over victims whole family that they simply will not be able to do anything (or just simply ran away and is unreachable, etc.)
Here - state could help bring the offender to the same level of power as victims (just my initial thought - there also might be some flaws here that i do not see).
3)
Let's say that we managed to get in situation where victim has option to take revenge. To prevent initial emotional decision to me it seems that it would require some buffor time before the victim can execute. For example - they both sit in one room for X hours (if they are alowed to talk is debatable) and only after this time victim can decide and mayby proceed. What intention here i have in mind is that the victim should have time to understand that the punishment he/she is about to deliver may have long term consequences and should consider them and not just go with the initial impulse.
And on the other hand if state would not be involved at all things are much simpler:
1) Victim decides about the punishment (this can lead to endless circle of taking revenge though but that's life i guess)
2) It is victims problem to get enough power in time and take revenge (it may take years but gives life goal i guess?)
3) Victim can do whatever in any moment they like.
Personally - my vote goes to state not beeing involved at all (or in very limited ways) because it seems more natural. And even from emotional perspective it makes more sense too - only people involved in situation will try to take action (as oposed to for example judge that is in no way conected has to decide about something).
I think that the people as a whole decide what the punishment should be, thus the creation of the social contract. Everyone that lives within that society have agreed that by living there they are agreeing to the rules. The power then lies with the populace.
The state should be the will of the people, but societies have taught us that the state often has its own agenda, so the people should not grant them the power over life and death.
Revenge has little positive benefit. It may be psychologically soothing for some, but for many it would be something that would eat away at them emotionally, causing more pain than a being a salve.
You summarized that very well!! Maine stopped the death penalty in 1887 as the result of a botched execution- witnessed by the victim's family and the Governor who were disgusted by the horrific spectacle. Just like you write now.
That is an unfortunate reason that it was halted.
What a wonderful post! So great to see you explore on this topic.
It is very important consideration. I am like you: pondering...
Savannah, good morning. Hey. For me, the cheating was unfortunate, but it did not end my relationship. I found out when the guy left his phone number on the nightstand, in our home: a one night stand that did not return.
I certainly wasn't mad at the guy. I talked with her. Then dropped it.
You experience disgust, but do not automatically form a higher abstract meaning to it.
This is somewhat context driven, for example, my half ‘n half was spoiled and so had a rank stink, but I didn’t assign a moral value to this.
However, sometimes we automatically assign moral meaning when someone does something we imagine would be disgusting, such as some kinds of sexual behavior we might not dare entertain.
They “must be perverted, evil, messed up” because they like it.
But, the color Red, pleasant or unpleasant, beautiful or ugly doesn’t exist in objective reality, just ask my Cat about lemons, she’ll tell you they stink like a catbox if she could.
Yet this drives body shame in our exposure of our mucous membranes, or smelly parts.
Becoming aware of pathogens, then assigning shame to sources of pathogens, or obsession with the “unclean” in the Old Testament
It’s a story of awareness of hygiene
In Genesis 3:6-8 we read: “when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.” (Genesis 3:6-8)
Now compare this with their original creation state in Genesis 2:25 where we read “they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
What is body shame?
Awareness of self, and finding that self to be inadequate in the eyes of God. However, as God is more and more removed from society and people's lives, society itself, and it's judgment that now stands in God's stead in the eyes of those seeking his approval.
At least that seems to be a reasonable interpretation of the verse and it's implications in our modern world.
Athena!! You comment on Bible verses!! Wow. it must be fun to speak to you in person. Very few people can talk about religion and Bible verses without getting worked up and emotional. EVEN those who seek to discredit Bible or religion are mostly incredibility boring and un-imaginative and speak with the same "conviction" as the most vocal evangelist. U however? -smiles-
Why thank you, Tim
I may have told this story in Quora but I'm not sure
I have cattle and several years back a cow died near the edge of the pond. It was several days before I found her.
I get on my tractor and go to drag the carcass away to someplace where I can burn it and it was really rank. It was hot that summer and the cow had already bloated
Anyway, hooked the chain up and started to drag her and the body came apart.
The smell hit me and I experienced a reaction in what I refer to as my lizard brain.
In order to continue I got a bandana to cover my face and used Vick's salve to overpower the smell
I never felt any real emotion, it was strictly a violent physical reaction to the smell of decay. However it was a really strong reaction
BTW I can't take zombie movies seriously as I know that the dead could never sneak up on you, they'd fall apart fairly rapidly and they'd be preyed on from everything from vultures to opossums. :D
I have always said that about zombie movies. They would be immobile in days, sometimes faster. Also, how could they sneak up with that smell?
That's where hypothetical magic comes in. Say a curse or some such stuff kicks in only after some amount of time that passes since death and during that time they were rotting peacefully but from the moment of activation it is all stopped, something like conservation. Centuries ago unquiet dead were accused of not decomposing (and don't even get me started on the whole conundrum of materiality or immateriality and two souls and harming from afar or up close) and thus suspiciously intact corpses got mutiliated in all sorts of ways. Then vampires and werewolves became its own things and zombies separated as corpsy-corpse. I must also not forget african tardition of drugging and burrying for a short while to create what lended them their name - so in practise living disheveled brain-damaged and traumatized human.
Then there are infection movies like Resident evil. It does count as zombie movie series, doesn't it?
Yes, they do, but those in Resident evil movies are still decomposing, so they too would fall apart sooner or later. 28 days later had living people infected by rage, who then starved to death after a time, but it seemed to me that they should have been taken out by dehydration much faster.
Those raging people weren't drinking? Huh...
I Am Legend perhaps comes the closest to credibility. It also introduces a concept of mindless monsters not being so mindless after all.
The original cut of the movie has an opening scene where they discuss the rage virus and how it escaped the lab that it was developed.
Why burning instead of just burrying where you found it? Was it because of the pond or there is a regulation that demands every such corpse is burned properly or something else?
Cremation was both easier and more certain not to risk further pollution of water sources. You need a big backhoe to dig a grave for an 1100 pound cow in a timely manner :P
I like Zombie movies where they are meant to represent something else: Like Racists or Nazis. "Ben" was killed by Bigots at the end of "The Night of the Living Dead"
oh, wait!! Ben survived the Zombies but was murdered by Bigots!! haha.
Sorry about your cow.
Until you pointed it out a while back, I had not thought clearly about how even though some people absolutely deserve the death penalty, it is a mistake to ever give the State that power. Now I realise that any discomfort I might have still had about the death penalty, which I broadly approved of, had nothing to do with the justness of the punishment but rather the risks in handing over such a power and it's potential for misuse. I'm kind of embarrassed not to have thought of this aspect before. Probably because I was putting myself in the position of the affected family who had a very reasonable desire for vengeance and that was all I could think of. So yeah, thanks for writing about this..
I am glad that it gave you something to consider that you hadn't before. I enjoy that when it happens for me.
Oh yes, it's great. I have memories of my own cognitive development as a very small child, just not understanding things, and then the brain grows and new things become comprehensible- time, consequences, numbers, perspective, all sorts of stuff. I found the process amazing back then. So finding new things to consider is a way of continuing a similar enjoyment through adulthood. The clink of the penny dropping.
That's awesome
They would never give it back, not until forced. It is not in human nature.