I spent 10 minutes stressing out, trying to find out what the hell florbow meant. I was ready to return my C2 level certificate when all I needed was to continue reading.
Neurotypicals are scary. They demonize any behavior that differs from what they do, BUT they can't see they, at some point, act in the same way, but no, since they're neurotypicals, It's all right! We are the problem here lol
note: the title of this post has a typo; don't need the apostrophe in "psychopath's"
Some of the problem might be a basic thing intrinsic to human thinking.
If you have experience with computer programming, you may have heard of "compiling" sentence-like, human-readable programs into much faster, more basic-level code for actual use. Humans can't really read that stuff at all easily.
I get a sense sometimes that people "compile" their emotions - and sensory info, all sorts of experiences - into their thinking patterns as they learn. They'll use those patterns for everyday thinking years later. So, emotions are part of the thinking structure and likely associated with other info in our heads. People who see the world as created by another (human) that's just much more powerful, that shares their particular values, even gender and skin color... the idea that love is key to the universe is another one. The universe may indeed have some fascinating keys, but I'm not sure they revolve around oxytocin's interplay in the nervous systems of a bunch of primates.
It's very hard for people to cognitively keep something like what you're talking about straight, Athena, unless maybe they've *had to* learn that others are different in parts of this. That might make it more evident when we look at those different people. Do we all do this in some areas though? It is very hard to tease out, we visually cannot see our own blind spots by definition, nor perhaps can we notice some emotion-impacted parts of our own thinking process while we're actually thinking.
I think you are correct, these things are so interwoven in thought processes and actions, it isn't even considered. I think this is also why it is fairly easy to for me to pick out people that pretending to be psychopaths. It is obvious to me that there are emotions present when there wouldn't be, but they can't see it, because they are used to it, and consider it normal.
I think he studied university students because it was convenient. That is, finding 200 people who are older than 25 is a lot harder than just recruiting students. And even 200 folks older than 25 is still a lousy size cohort. There aren't enough bodies/brains/people there to find anything of significance, because there won't be enough of the phenomenon he's trying to study.
Question for you, a psychopath: Do you have insomnia or difficulty in sleeping an entire night? My psychopath friend does and I'm wondering if it's the same across the board or just them.
My thinking is that GABAergic activity helps you sleep but if you are low on it you can't sleep deeply. I know that ASPD have low GABA and thus don't sleep great but I'm thinking that the trait that causes psychopaths to react weakly to emotional stimuli might fall in the same alley. A guy named Adam Lane Smith says GABA interactions are key to forming deep emotional bonds with people and psychopaths aren't regular in that regard.
Hmm, well, it isn't so much that I have trouble sleeping... once I get there. It is more that I have to force myself to go to sleep. I can keep finding things that are interesting, and either avoid or forget going to sleep. Because of that, I end up taking a great deal of melatonin to make tiredness override my distractions.
I’m assuming my brain is wired similarly to how yours is functioning, Athena. Many things that you tell us make me think “same”.
Every single night I just don’t like going to bed. Because I would so much like to read another few pages in the novel I am reading, or do one small lesson in Italian language, or listen to some political podcast, … And every single night I am so joyful that tomorrow will be a new day, and I finally can continue doing all those things.
I always thought that it must come out of the dopamine system, because I see that proximity to the reward loop. By the way, my whole day is looking like a reward loop: 5-6 days going to the gym, then go to work, going for a walk every evening. Having a nice dinner. And then, still not tired, craving to learn all those interesting things.
If I were the first human being, I would not have invented going to bed. :)
And I am taking some antidepressants that make me tired, while being far away from being depressed.
Athena, you have read and written much more about the dopamine system: can you imagine that there is the connection that I phantasize? / Could you give a hint or link to where you have shared your thoughts about dopamine in psychopaths? Thanks.
I haven't written about it much because I am not all that familiar with it. I have read about it in passing, and I may have mentioned it in answers somewhere on Quora, but it wouldn't be much, if there is anything
My friend also uses supplementation to get to sleep. He actually noted that it's even harder on full moon nights and I've noticed that if he's particularly active at night before bedtime and go outside I'll see a big moon.
The worst part about articles like these is that there was real headway in helping ASPD trauma but now that it's been lumped together into the sociopath/psychopath/ASPD bucket no one can figure out anything since the recommendations for the separate conditions are radically different.
The other unfortunate part, is now that it is considered "untreatable", many people who are antisocial because of trauma and abuse, will be ignored. Many psychologists won't work with certain diagnoses, and ASPD is often one of them
I wonder if this nonsense will ever end. I agree he has it so wrong they should not be in the same category I understand why they have the tendency to do this it's because they both have lack of empathy in common doesn't mean they're the same people it's ridiculous
"One possibility is that they have low emotional awareness." No. Just no. I get this part.
"The hormone oxytocin can increase feelings of guilt and shame when someone intentionally harms others"
Who is this guy talking about? Could I ask if any of your readers EVER experience this with result of negative feelings such as guilt and shame?
He seems to reference such a light weight occurrence throwing a spit ball or pulling a girls braids perhaps? Or he is talking about himself? Inflicting his readers with such contempt but was paid to write it?
I would say it must be extremely rare for anyone to feel guilt or shame when they INTENTIONALLY harm others - if something is intentional and you feel guilt or shame about it, there's an easy solution for that - just don't do it in the first place. The only time I can imagine guilt or shame in that scenario is if you knew it would cause harm but did it anyway out of pure selfishness. But it would be a pretty superficial kind of guilt or shame, as you've said before Athena.
When people feel guilt or shame about harming someone, it's almost always going to be unintentional harm, which you only realise has caused harm after the fact, when it's already too late. Either through carelessness or thoughtlessness, or due to differences between people meaning that you couldn't predict the way the other person was going to experience it, or that it would be a problem for them. Like Athena not realising that Jess would be upset by not having her post published, because it's not something that would have bothered her. But those kind of misunderstandings can happen between neurotypicals too, because we can have very different internal emotional worlds despite all being neurotypical.
I think that there are people that feel guilty after intentional harm. Those types tend to be the ones driven by some sort of internal desire that they act on, knowing that it's wrong, but do so regardless. However, once they achieve the end that they are looking for, they might feel guilt and shame. It is something that I have observed in some individuals.
Yeah and another is when something seems like it has to be done, but the process is hurtful and it bothers the person. Especially if they are a bit doubtful about whether it was the best possible path. One might have also underestimated their own response to intentional action they undertook. They thought it would be easy and then whoah, it reverberated a lot.
Feeling wrong for things can be conditioned, whether they are objectively harmless or harmful.
I spent 10 minutes stressing out, trying to find out what the hell florbow meant. I was ready to return my C2 level certificate when all I needed was to continue reading.
I use it as a stand in for a nonexistent thing
Ha I'm borrowing this one, I will put it to great use. In my native language we say tretas, it's quite funny.
Nonsensical words are useful tools
Neurotypicals are scary. They demonize any behavior that differs from what they do, BUT they can't see they, at some point, act in the same way, but no, since they're neurotypicals, It's all right! We are the problem here lol
There seem to be an infinite well of excuses for NTs, and another of eternal blame for other neurological functions.
Exactly!
note: the title of this post has a typo; don't need the apostrophe in "psychopath's"
Some of the problem might be a basic thing intrinsic to human thinking.
If you have experience with computer programming, you may have heard of "compiling" sentence-like, human-readable programs into much faster, more basic-level code for actual use. Humans can't really read that stuff at all easily.
I get a sense sometimes that people "compile" their emotions - and sensory info, all sorts of experiences - into their thinking patterns as they learn. They'll use those patterns for everyday thinking years later. So, emotions are part of the thinking structure and likely associated with other info in our heads. People who see the world as created by another (human) that's just much more powerful, that shares their particular values, even gender and skin color... the idea that love is key to the universe is another one. The universe may indeed have some fascinating keys, but I'm not sure they revolve around oxytocin's interplay in the nervous systems of a bunch of primates.
It's very hard for people to cognitively keep something like what you're talking about straight, Athena, unless maybe they've *had to* learn that others are different in parts of this. That might make it more evident when we look at those different people. Do we all do this in some areas though? It is very hard to tease out, we visually cannot see our own blind spots by definition, nor perhaps can we notice some emotion-impacted parts of our own thinking process while we're actually thinking.
Thank you for the correction, I fixed the title.
I think you are correct, these things are so interwoven in thought processes and actions, it isn't even considered. I think this is also why it is fairly easy to for me to pick out people that pretending to be psychopaths. It is obvious to me that there are emotions present when there wouldn't be, but they can't see it, because they are used to it, and consider it normal.
I think he studied university students because it was convenient. That is, finding 200 people who are older than 25 is a lot harder than just recruiting students. And even 200 folks older than 25 is still a lousy size cohort. There aren't enough bodies/brains/people there to find anything of significance, because there won't be enough of the phenomenon he's trying to study.
True, but easy shouldn't replace accurate
I totally agree.
Question for you, a psychopath: Do you have insomnia or difficulty in sleeping an entire night? My psychopath friend does and I'm wondering if it's the same across the board or just them.
My thinking is that GABAergic activity helps you sleep but if you are low on it you can't sleep deeply. I know that ASPD have low GABA and thus don't sleep great but I'm thinking that the trait that causes psychopaths to react weakly to emotional stimuli might fall in the same alley. A guy named Adam Lane Smith says GABA interactions are key to forming deep emotional bonds with people and psychopaths aren't regular in that regard.
Hmm, well, it isn't so much that I have trouble sleeping... once I get there. It is more that I have to force myself to go to sleep. I can keep finding things that are interesting, and either avoid or forget going to sleep. Because of that, I end up taking a great deal of melatonin to make tiredness override my distractions.
I’m assuming my brain is wired similarly to how yours is functioning, Athena. Many things that you tell us make me think “same”.
Every single night I just don’t like going to bed. Because I would so much like to read another few pages in the novel I am reading, or do one small lesson in Italian language, or listen to some political podcast, … And every single night I am so joyful that tomorrow will be a new day, and I finally can continue doing all those things.
I always thought that it must come out of the dopamine system, because I see that proximity to the reward loop. By the way, my whole day is looking like a reward loop: 5-6 days going to the gym, then go to work, going for a walk every evening. Having a nice dinner. And then, still not tired, craving to learn all those interesting things.
If I were the first human being, I would not have invented going to bed. :)
And I am taking some antidepressants that make me tired, while being far away from being depressed.
Athena, you have read and written much more about the dopamine system: can you imagine that there is the connection that I phantasize? / Could you give a hint or link to where you have shared your thoughts about dopamine in psychopaths? Thanks.
I haven't written about it much because I am not all that familiar with it. I have read about it in passing, and I may have mentioned it in answers somewhere on Quora, but it wouldn't be much, if there is anything
Thanks Athena. I’ll do my research on that topic. It’s one of those on my list.
You're welcome
My friend also uses supplementation to get to sleep. He actually noted that it's even harder on full moon nights and I've noticed that if he's particularly active at night before bedtime and go outside I'll see a big moon.
The worst part about articles like these is that there was real headway in helping ASPD trauma but now that it's been lumped together into the sociopath/psychopath/ASPD bucket no one can figure out anything since the recommendations for the separate conditions are radically different.
The other unfortunate part, is now that it is considered "untreatable", many people who are antisocial because of trauma and abuse, will be ignored. Many psychologists won't work with certain diagnoses, and ASPD is often one of them
I wonder if this nonsense will ever end. I agree he has it so wrong they should not be in the same category I understand why they have the tendency to do this it's because they both have lack of empathy in common doesn't mean they're the same people it's ridiculous
I agree, and I think that it demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of psychopathy, sociopathy, ASPD, and empathy, all at the same time
🫨
I like the comments already!!
"One possibility is that they have low emotional awareness." No. Just no. I get this part.
"The hormone oxytocin can increase feelings of guilt and shame when someone intentionally harms others"
Who is this guy talking about? Could I ask if any of your readers EVER experience this with result of negative feelings such as guilt and shame?
He seems to reference such a light weight occurrence throwing a spit ball or pulling a girls braids perhaps? Or he is talking about himself? Inflicting his readers with such contempt but was paid to write it?
That's a good question, and with articles like this one, it is a constant wonder, is this projection?
I would say it must be extremely rare for anyone to feel guilt or shame when they INTENTIONALLY harm others - if something is intentional and you feel guilt or shame about it, there's an easy solution for that - just don't do it in the first place. The only time I can imagine guilt or shame in that scenario is if you knew it would cause harm but did it anyway out of pure selfishness. But it would be a pretty superficial kind of guilt or shame, as you've said before Athena.
When people feel guilt or shame about harming someone, it's almost always going to be unintentional harm, which you only realise has caused harm after the fact, when it's already too late. Either through carelessness or thoughtlessness, or due to differences between people meaning that you couldn't predict the way the other person was going to experience it, or that it would be a problem for them. Like Athena not realising that Jess would be upset by not having her post published, because it's not something that would have bothered her. But those kind of misunderstandings can happen between neurotypicals too, because we can have very different internal emotional worlds despite all being neurotypical.
I think that there are people that feel guilty after intentional harm. Those types tend to be the ones driven by some sort of internal desire that they act on, knowing that it's wrong, but do so regardless. However, once they achieve the end that they are looking for, they might feel guilt and shame. It is something that I have observed in some individuals.
Yeah and another is when something seems like it has to be done, but the process is hurtful and it bothers the person. Especially if they are a bit doubtful about whether it was the best possible path. One might have also underestimated their own response to intentional action they undertook. They thought it would be easy and then whoah, it reverberated a lot.
Feeling wrong for things can be conditioned, whether they are objectively harmless or harmful.
Quite true