this is some solid advice, especially while learning the ins and outs of different boundary types + signs of approach to people crossing them. thanks for this one.
Excellent write-up on friendships and boundaries. Often neglected people lack proper training on boundaries among normal people and struggle to learn what they are.
X often is actually a mysterious thing to such people! They then end up doing things that are socially awkward or even unacceptable as a result. Helping them is not easy.
Athena, you have mentioned that you do not feel trust. How do you view this cognitively? As in, personally I "don't trust" but it's not chemical related, but I wish cognitively to find people to trust. I'm not sure but going through the world knowing that anything can happen anytime coming from anyone can be a bit challenging and mentally dreaning? In medical eyes, it could be blurring the line between regular carefulness and paranoid disorder...
I don't know what the experience of trust is, so it isn't something that I consider to be without, as I never had it. as such, I simply allow people to tell me who they are by watching them over a long period of time, and through not only their interactions with me, but everyone that they know. If they demonstrate that they will do what they say consistently, I will allow them more leeway in terms of assuming that will continue in our interactions.
You nailed it. This is brilliant. You are spot on. I have a friend 😂 I don't want the drama and guilt trips.
I love my alone time. I can research and learn. My time, my life. I have failed more times than most people. Failure turns into Wisdom for me. I don’t want to repeat the same loss. That’s wisdom. 😂
Where are my wisdom warriors-glad I don’t take myself so seriously 😳
Over the years I have been learning what my boundaries are. I am cautious of people who overtly friendly, because from my experience, the people who are “friendly” tend to be the ones who’ll stomp all over boundaries and look for any excuse to cause drama.
While I still attract those kind of people, I have since learned on how to deal with those kinds of people. Before, I would have been sympathetic and think in terms of “what can I do to be a better friend?”. Now if the thing their complaining about is something that is nitpicky or obviously not my fault, I don’t engage them or take them seriously. I don’t bother to defend myself because there really is no point, I just leave them. If I’m in a situation where I’m living with them, I play the role of nice polite girl until I can leave.
A few things I’ve learned about myself from these relationships, is that I don’t like it when I feel like I’m forced to be social, I don’t like it when they demand hours of my time everyday, and I don’t like it when I’m forced to sit there and listen to them complain about how horrible I am to them, meanwhile expecting me to just tolerate anything they do.
There is definitely more nuance to those situations then what I wrote down. I should probably investigate why I attract those kinds of people.
In a total logical thinking this is very accurate.
Most can’t shut off the emotions and stand in your shoes. I get exactly what your saying with respect to to the emotional need from one person and to the psychopath seeing many areas of how they could be manipulated. Curious Athena what do you in those moments where you see a window of manipulation?
I guess a neurotypical as myself went through a narcissist mother I looked for those openings, it was all to easy. I’m not a fan of manipulation however I admit I did do this towards her to stay under the radar of receiving the annoyance of her gas lighting. I had a very strategic childhood and watched her manipulate and observed how she could be emotionally effected.
Learned a lot just by watching her and other people. I admit as soon as I cut her toxic bs out of my life I did.
Do you ever have your logical opinion challenged by anyone? And what does that look like?
It depends on the situation. I see places that a person can be manipulated all the time as it is a large part of human interaction. Most of the time it is simply something that I note but don't care about. Other times I will warn them that they have a blind spot that they should be aware of.
I have had my logical opinion challenged many times, most often by those that have an emotional opinion that they want to make the facts support, but cannot do so. This tends to result in denial or an unwillingness to have further discussion. I have a message exchange that is the perfect example of this that I was considering writing a post about.
Amazing as always but this one really helped me with understanding the behavior of my toxic abusive ex. Thank you! He’s sociopathic, not psychopathy, so I wasn’t expecting to finally gain my understanding from here. God the 3 am suicide calls were spot on, and I was pregnant with our son and deeply in Iove with him. I escaped from him twelve years ago. I first started following you because I was never able to understand his capacity for cruelty. I quickly learned I was ignorant about psychopathy but stayed because I love your writing, your thoughts, and I enjoy your take on everything. I always want to know and understand the world more. I’ve also always wondered how many of your followers are people who would describe themselves as empaths (I used to before the relationship with him changed me), how many are logic based (or less emotional), and how many are victims of abusers (potentially misguidedly seeking answers here). Or maybe better categories are “seeking to understand self” or “seeking to understand others”. I know it’s way more complicated than that, humans are diverse in so many ways, but I’m curious: what do you think originally draws people to you? And how often does that draw match the reason they stay?
I'm not completely certain, but I think that there is something to the fundamental lack of judgment that people likely pick up from me.
Another is likely that people want to talk about themselves, and they want to be heard. I have little to no interest in speaking about myself, and will allow a person to speak about what they want to speak about without interruption.
Also, it may be that I can see beneath what they are saying to what is really bothering them which allows me to give them some insight to what they are worried about.
For readers it is likely the ability to bridge the gap between neurotypical experience and psychopathic. Using cognitive empathy I can understand how and why neurotypicals and psychopaths are often ship passing in the fog, as it were. Understanding the two different worldviews allows for better understanding.
I agree wholeheartedly with what you say about toxic people and how they operate. Thank you for stating it so clearly.
It’s interesting about the mirror neurons, I’ve read about this too because I am probably what you would describe as an emotional person. I don’t show my emotions readily though, it takes a long time for me to start lowering my guard. People confide in me, at bus stops , in line at the grocery store, anywhere really. They tell me all sorts for some reason but I don’t confide in them.
For me, when someone I care about is upset I FEEL their sadness. It isn’t like a mirroring or a cognitive response to show understanding, it’s an emotional contagion and that contagion can stay with me for days afterwards. It isn’t my sadness that I feel. It isn’t that I’m worried and concerned therefore I feel sad for them, it is that their sadness stays with me, it’s a sadness that doesn’t belong to me. For strangers or acquaintances it is similar, I feel the emotion but not as intensely and not for as long afterwards.
If I am in real distress myself, and I have been, thanks to a toxic friendship, I actually find cold hard logic the most comforting. If I’m churning inside to such a degree that I resort to confiding, I am looking for clarity not emotional empathy because I know I can’t find a solution myself. Almost like “ Here, take the reins, you can see clearly, I can’t.” So non emotional feedback in times of distress is a bonus for me, I’d pay attention to the voice in the storm so to speak.
this is some solid advice, especially while learning the ins and outs of different boundary types + signs of approach to people crossing them. thanks for this one.
Excellent write-up on friendships and boundaries. Often neglected people lack proper training on boundaries among normal people and struggle to learn what they are.
X often is actually a mysterious thing to such people! They then end up doing things that are socially awkward or even unacceptable as a result. Helping them is not easy.
Athena, you have mentioned that you do not feel trust. How do you view this cognitively? As in, personally I "don't trust" but it's not chemical related, but I wish cognitively to find people to trust. I'm not sure but going through the world knowing that anything can happen anytime coming from anyone can be a bit challenging and mentally dreaning? In medical eyes, it could be blurring the line between regular carefulness and paranoid disorder...
I don't know what the experience of trust is, so it isn't something that I consider to be without, as I never had it. as such, I simply allow people to tell me who they are by watching them over a long period of time, and through not only their interactions with me, but everyone that they know. If they demonstrate that they will do what they say consistently, I will allow them more leeway in terms of assuming that will continue in our interactions.
You nailed it. This is brilliant. You are spot on. I have a friend 😂 I don't want the drama and guilt trips.
I love my alone time. I can research and learn. My time, my life. I have failed more times than most people. Failure turns into Wisdom for me. I don’t want to repeat the same loss. That’s wisdom. 😂
Where are my wisdom warriors-glad I don’t take myself so seriously 😳
Brilliant piece, psycho. 😊
Over the years I have been learning what my boundaries are. I am cautious of people who overtly friendly, because from my experience, the people who are “friendly” tend to be the ones who’ll stomp all over boundaries and look for any excuse to cause drama.
While I still attract those kind of people, I have since learned on how to deal with those kinds of people. Before, I would have been sympathetic and think in terms of “what can I do to be a better friend?”. Now if the thing their complaining about is something that is nitpicky or obviously not my fault, I don’t engage them or take them seriously. I don’t bother to defend myself because there really is no point, I just leave them. If I’m in a situation where I’m living with them, I play the role of nice polite girl until I can leave.
A few things I’ve learned about myself from these relationships, is that I don’t like it when I feel like I’m forced to be social, I don’t like it when they demand hours of my time everyday, and I don’t like it when I’m forced to sit there and listen to them complain about how horrible I am to them, meanwhile expecting me to just tolerate anything they do.
There is definitely more nuance to those situations then what I wrote down. I should probably investigate why I attract those kinds of people.
It certainly would be good to know
In a total logical thinking this is very accurate.
Most can’t shut off the emotions and stand in your shoes. I get exactly what your saying with respect to to the emotional need from one person and to the psychopath seeing many areas of how they could be manipulated. Curious Athena what do you in those moments where you see a window of manipulation?
I guess a neurotypical as myself went through a narcissist mother I looked for those openings, it was all to easy. I’m not a fan of manipulation however I admit I did do this towards her to stay under the radar of receiving the annoyance of her gas lighting. I had a very strategic childhood and watched her manipulate and observed how she could be emotionally effected.
Learned a lot just by watching her and other people. I admit as soon as I cut her toxic bs out of my life I did.
Do you ever have your logical opinion challenged by anyone? And what does that look like?
Good read as always 👍🏻
It depends on the situation. I see places that a person can be manipulated all the time as it is a large part of human interaction. Most of the time it is simply something that I note but don't care about. Other times I will warn them that they have a blind spot that they should be aware of.
I have had my logical opinion challenged many times, most often by those that have an emotional opinion that they want to make the facts support, but cannot do so. This tends to result in denial or an unwillingness to have further discussion. I have a message exchange that is the perfect example of this that I was considering writing a post about.
Amazing as always but this one really helped me with understanding the behavior of my toxic abusive ex. Thank you! He’s sociopathic, not psychopathy, so I wasn’t expecting to finally gain my understanding from here. God the 3 am suicide calls were spot on, and I was pregnant with our son and deeply in Iove with him. I escaped from him twelve years ago. I first started following you because I was never able to understand his capacity for cruelty. I quickly learned I was ignorant about psychopathy but stayed because I love your writing, your thoughts, and I enjoy your take on everything. I always want to know and understand the world more. I’ve also always wondered how many of your followers are people who would describe themselves as empaths (I used to before the relationship with him changed me), how many are logic based (or less emotional), and how many are victims of abusers (potentially misguidedly seeking answers here). Or maybe better categories are “seeking to understand self” or “seeking to understand others”. I know it’s way more complicated than that, humans are diverse in so many ways, but I’m curious: what do you think originally draws people to you? And how often does that draw match the reason they stay?
I'm not completely certain, but I think that there is something to the fundamental lack of judgment that people likely pick up from me.
Another is likely that people want to talk about themselves, and they want to be heard. I have little to no interest in speaking about myself, and will allow a person to speak about what they want to speak about without interruption.
Also, it may be that I can see beneath what they are saying to what is really bothering them which allows me to give them some insight to what they are worried about.
Oh I’m sorry! I meant as readers, not friends irl, although that is interesting ❤️
For readers it is likely the ability to bridge the gap between neurotypical experience and psychopathic. Using cognitive empathy I can understand how and why neurotypicals and psychopaths are often ship passing in the fog, as it were. Understanding the two different worldviews allows for better understanding.
I agree wholeheartedly with what you say about toxic people and how they operate. Thank you for stating it so clearly.
It’s interesting about the mirror neurons, I’ve read about this too because I am probably what you would describe as an emotional person. I don’t show my emotions readily though, it takes a long time for me to start lowering my guard. People confide in me, at bus stops , in line at the grocery store, anywhere really. They tell me all sorts for some reason but I don’t confide in them.
For me, when someone I care about is upset I FEEL their sadness. It isn’t like a mirroring or a cognitive response to show understanding, it’s an emotional contagion and that contagion can stay with me for days afterwards. It isn’t my sadness that I feel. It isn’t that I’m worried and concerned therefore I feel sad for them, it is that their sadness stays with me, it’s a sadness that doesn’t belong to me. For strangers or acquaintances it is similar, I feel the emotion but not as intensely and not for as long afterwards.
If I am in real distress myself, and I have been, thanks to a toxic friendship, I actually find cold hard logic the most comforting. If I’m churning inside to such a degree that I resort to confiding, I am looking for clarity not emotional empathy because I know I can’t find a solution myself. Almost like “ Here, take the reins, you can see clearly, I can’t.” So non emotional feedback in times of distress is a bonus for me, I’d pay attention to the voice in the storm so to speak.
Some people really appreciate the voice in the storm, while others find it dismissive. I think that it's interesting to see both sides.