I have a question for you Athena, something I've been wondering about for a while, and which this interview reminded me of - do you have a view on how much the fact of not being brought up in your biological family, and therefore being brought up by NTs rather than other psychopaths, has influenced the level of cognitive empathy you've been able to develop as an adult?
It's a bit of an assumption, but to me it seems like the level of cognitive empathy and understanding that you have is quite unusual for a psychopath (based on the fact that there are very few, if any, other psychopaths able to write about psychopathy with the level of insight you do, or the level of understanding of the neurotypical world that you have, hence having such a big following and being the number one writer on psychopathy on Quora).
I'm assuming here that a psychopath brought up by their biological family would likely be brought up by other psychopaths, since psychopathy is a genetically inherited condition. Although unsure if the genes are dominant or recessive, and therefore whether likely that both parents would be psychopathic, or just one.
It sounds like your parents put alot of work and energy in teaching you about cause and effect, and long term consequences of behaviour, which may have been the catalyst that enabled you to really develop your cognitive empathy as you got older - which is something you probably wouldn't have learned if brought up by other psychopaths?
There are nearly no psychopaths raised by other psychopaths. That isn't how the genetics work. Psychopathy makes enormous jumps in genetic presentation. That last manifestation can go back further than the three generation rule. This is that your genetics, you individually, basically have no impact on offspring born three generations past you. None, really. Psychopathy, however, defies this rule and can skip, and usually does.
Having a psychopathic parent does not seem to increase the chances of a psychopathic child much. There is no entire family of psychopaths that would really be possible, as one in a hundred people is born psychopathic. It is genetic, but breeding through entire families, and affecting more than a single member in one generation, is basically inconceivable.
Psychopaths are raised by neurotypicals almost always.
Oh that's super interesting, I didn't know any genetics worked like that! It makes sense that it wouldn't take that many generations before a person's genetics would have basically no influence, but 3 seems like an incredibly small number for that to work over.
I guess with an incidence of 0.75 to 1% in the population, it shouldn't be surprising that the genetics of psychopathy is a bit more complicated than the genetics of brown eyes / blue eyes etc.
The genetics is interesting to think about. My brother took his youngest grandson deer hunting and he killed a deer with no hesitation. My brother commented that he'd never seen a kid shoot so coldly before. The grandson has a number of other traits that Athena would recognize as well
So having told that at Sunday dinner my 89 year old dad who was the 15th of 16 children told about how one of his older brothers was being bullied at school very badly so he pocketed his fathers straight razor and eviscerated the worst of his tormentors absolutely coldly with no warning and no remorse. They were able to put the bully back together but they didn't do anything to my uncle. it's there always floating in the background
I believe intuition is a person subconsciously collecting information about the world around them. Those bits of information will pop up and give the person a feeling of intuition. I collect that information consciously, so I pick up on things faster than most. Adrenaline does kick in, in times of danger, it is quite useful.
My perception of intuition is the same. Intuition isn't used all day every day but by having to go through that whole process consciously, on top of having to keep a mask around NTs regularly, does your brain ever go into overdrive or are you already used to it? For us, intuition just happens and most often, unless you sit back and think back on an event, you won't even recall it influencing your actions. It truly just happens.
I think autistics and schizoids seem to have several traits in common. I was thinking about how one's relationship to the sensory environment differs between neurotypes earlier today, so I am glad she discussed it. The dissociation and danger aspect is something I experience too. If I go about things in my normal state without making a conscious effort, I will step in front of a car and get run over because I was completely in my head and detached from my physical environment.
I think this relates to autism and flat affect, but your voice in interviews sounds highly emotionally expressive to me. I think if I came across you without knowing about the psychopathy and you spoke like that, I might think you were a very emotional person, in a certain way, and be overwhelmed by it. I imagine neurotypicals respond differently though. I'm sure culture is also a factor.
Athenas voice and demeanor reminded me of the interrogators in real life interrogation videos, like "red tree crime" videos. Being polite and interested in the other person, but something is still "off". I guess there's similarities in the masking.
Or maybe I'm just projecting, based on my own mask?
Yes, I agree with you about something being "off", though it's difficult to explain exactly what. Something about the tone. I mask differently, not being a psychopath. That influences my perspective, I'm sure.
I think what I hear in Athena's voice is enthusiasm, interest/engagement and humour, but not necessarily emotion as such.
This is a distinction that's always fascinated me in Athena's writing - the split between the NT feelings that she does seem to feel pretty normally (fun, excitement, interest, enthusiasm, humour etc) and the ones she doesn't (fear, sadness, anger, anxiety, chemical love etc). These are all 'feelings' to a neurotypical, but only the second set are really true emotions, and those are the ones that psychopaths lack.
It's like there are two different axes of feeling in humans, one axis that's present in psychopaths and one that's absent. I'm interested what the difference is between the two, it must revolve around oxytocin I guess, since that's the hormone that's knocked out in psychopathy.
It's almost like oxytocin should be called the hormone of survival - it seems to govern everything that's linked, directly or indirectly, to helping humans to survive (including all the emotions that help regulate human relationships, since those are what allow us to enjoy the protection of being part of a social group). Whereas it doesn't seem to govern any feelings that are just about enjoying the moment, like fun, enthusiasm, humour etc, based on the fact that those feelings are still present in psychopaths.
The only time I really heard emotion in Athena's voice was when she was reporting how other people speak to her when she's doing something dangerous, around the 33 mins mark - that was great mimicry/masking!
It is an interesting observation: the generally absent role of oxytocin in feelings of the moment versus the deeper regulatory role it plays in the emotions of humans as a collective. Boredom, again, relates to feelings of the moment; it exists so that humans will seek stimulation. Chronically present boredom leads to a constant search for stimulation to sate it.
Stimulation is another area of difference that interests me. Psychopaths seem to experience a resting state of hypostimulation, neurotypicals (being a very broad category) are somewhere in between, and autistics tend to experience a resting state of hyperstimulation. We often have to block out sensory input and tend to engage in the same things repeatedly. Psychopaths seem to constantly seek out variety, on the other hand.
I am curious about the connection this has to neuronal networks for all three, as it appears to be consistent with this idea. I believe there may also be less synpatic pruning in autistic individuals; with these brains often forming odd but interesting connections between unexpected areas. Perhaps this contributes to pattern-seeking strengths in some way, I am not sure. Even at a resting state, there is so much information absorbed and processed at all times.
All emotions/feelings, however, fall under the same umbrella when it comes to expression for me. Faces and voices produce floods of information, the intensity of the information increasing with the intensity of the tone (the sensory information has to be made sense of and used to read emotions). Content of speech is more important to me, but we live in a world where analysis of the delivery is very necessary. I deliver humour in what would be considered a flat tone, but masking means exaggerating it to what seems like an extreme degree to reach the expected neurotypical baseline.
If I think I sound theatrical and ridiculous, I know I've got it right!
About the voice, I noticed too. It didn't stand out to me but I did pick up on her intonation. My native language is pretty monotone so I'd say that's the main reason I noticed it.
I had a question. Happy Holloween. In 2006 I worked at a movie theater and I got to see movies for free. I saw "Grudge II" about 4 times. I guess I connect with jump scare. I sat through like 30 seconds of "Saw III" and left when they were opening up her ribs. Too much.
Here's my question. I had a thought about the feelings of guilt and empathy, which you have talked about before so I don't mean to impose, so. Am I perhaps reading into whether those movies play on the feeling of guilt? That seems more like the domain of advertising. Maybe I answered my own question.
I asked the question on threads too with the number one answer being "the emotion (felt by the antagonist) is rage. For not being able to save one's self or having life taken from them." I think I was trying to see if I could understand guilt as a component of what I should be feeling as a viewer. But that might be subjective. I obviously feel bad for both characters but I couldn't sit through Saw. I think I just connected with the Grudge and was able to follow the story better. I didn't understand Saw.
The Saw films aren't ones that I have followed. I saw one of them, found it to be a rather run-of-the-mill story that bored me, so I haven't bothered with the others, so I can't comment on the emotional aspects of the characters in the series.
This is interesting. I’ve often wondered about your thoughts on 'the unexplained,' given your rational perspective, but never remembered to ask on Quora or here—now I know.
What’s your take on people who insist on an entirely materialistic and scientifically explained version of reality? I’ve noticed that many seem quite emotionally attached to this perspective, even while insisting it’s the only rational view, and that everyone else is letting emotion cloud their judgment (and, to be fair, some are). I have to admit, I find it amusing.
I think that they are the type that requires believing that they understand everything around them. Any unknown is ignored or explained away without any actual understanding.
You said taking off ur mask( even though it is never 100% off) causes people to become extremely uneasy and downright terrified. What do u exactly do when u say u wear the mask. Is there a certain way u keep ur eyes, eyebrows, mouth? I cannot imagine how u are able to do so constantly. Also, I think ur face without mask is just a very very relaxed face, with absolutely no tension in any facial muscle . There is always some emotional state our face conveys, like microexpressions, which shows an insight into our 'inner world ' , because we are always feeling something, some emotion. But that being absent in your case, I think people feel that absence very much.
Basically, wearing sunglasses achieves this for NTs to some degree I think. Sunglasses on a stoic face conceals a lot of facial cues, so standing in an empty elevator with such a person sounds terrifying. Perhaps it is your eyes that does the trick mostly. Completely relaxing the eyes without closing them would achieve this mask off look, and that is perhaps the most difficult part of this mask off face for an NT to achieve.
Such a fascinating interview.
I have a question for you Athena, something I've been wondering about for a while, and which this interview reminded me of - do you have a view on how much the fact of not being brought up in your biological family, and therefore being brought up by NTs rather than other psychopaths, has influenced the level of cognitive empathy you've been able to develop as an adult?
It's a bit of an assumption, but to me it seems like the level of cognitive empathy and understanding that you have is quite unusual for a psychopath (based on the fact that there are very few, if any, other psychopaths able to write about psychopathy with the level of insight you do, or the level of understanding of the neurotypical world that you have, hence having such a big following and being the number one writer on psychopathy on Quora).
I'm assuming here that a psychopath brought up by their biological family would likely be brought up by other psychopaths, since psychopathy is a genetically inherited condition. Although unsure if the genes are dominant or recessive, and therefore whether likely that both parents would be psychopathic, or just one.
It sounds like your parents put alot of work and energy in teaching you about cause and effect, and long term consequences of behaviour, which may have been the catalyst that enabled you to really develop your cognitive empathy as you got older - which is something you probably wouldn't have learned if brought up by other psychopaths?
There are nearly no psychopaths raised by other psychopaths. That isn't how the genetics work. Psychopathy makes enormous jumps in genetic presentation. That last manifestation can go back further than the three generation rule. This is that your genetics, you individually, basically have no impact on offspring born three generations past you. None, really. Psychopathy, however, defies this rule and can skip, and usually does.
Having a psychopathic parent does not seem to increase the chances of a psychopathic child much. There is no entire family of psychopaths that would really be possible, as one in a hundred people is born psychopathic. It is genetic, but breeding through entire families, and affecting more than a single member in one generation, is basically inconceivable.
Psychopaths are raised by neurotypicals almost always.
Oh that's super interesting, I didn't know any genetics worked like that! It makes sense that it wouldn't take that many generations before a person's genetics would have basically no influence, but 3 seems like an incredibly small number for that to work over.
I guess with an incidence of 0.75 to 1% in the population, it shouldn't be surprising that the genetics of psychopathy is a bit more complicated than the genetics of brown eyes / blue eyes etc.
The genetics is interesting to think about. My brother took his youngest grandson deer hunting and he killed a deer with no hesitation. My brother commented that he'd never seen a kid shoot so coldly before. The grandson has a number of other traits that Athena would recognize as well
So having told that at Sunday dinner my 89 year old dad who was the 15th of 16 children told about how one of his older brothers was being bullied at school very badly so he pocketed his fathers straight razor and eviscerated the worst of his tormentors absolutely coldly with no warning and no remorse. They were able to put the bully back together but they didn't do anything to my uncle. it's there always floating in the background
With the lack of fear, do you rely on adrenaline or intuition? (if you have intuition)
I believe intuition is a person subconsciously collecting information about the world around them. Those bits of information will pop up and give the person a feeling of intuition. I collect that information consciously, so I pick up on things faster than most. Adrenaline does kick in, in times of danger, it is quite useful.
My perception of intuition is the same. Intuition isn't used all day every day but by having to go through that whole process consciously, on top of having to keep a mask around NTs regularly, does your brain ever go into overdrive or are you already used to it? For us, intuition just happens and most often, unless you sit back and think back on an event, you won't even recall it influencing your actions. It truly just happens.
I'm used to it
This is an interesting interview.
I think autistics and schizoids seem to have several traits in common. I was thinking about how one's relationship to the sensory environment differs between neurotypes earlier today, so I am glad she discussed it. The dissociation and danger aspect is something I experience too. If I go about things in my normal state without making a conscious effort, I will step in front of a car and get run over because I was completely in my head and detached from my physical environment.
I think this relates to autism and flat affect, but your voice in interviews sounds highly emotionally expressive to me. I think if I came across you without knowing about the psychopathy and you spoke like that, I might think you were a very emotional person, in a certain way, and be overwhelmed by it. I imagine neurotypicals respond differently though. I'm sure culture is also a factor.
I always mask when doing interviews
Yes, I presumed so.
Athenas voice and demeanor reminded me of the interrogators in real life interrogation videos, like "red tree crime" videos. Being polite and interested in the other person, but something is still "off". I guess there's similarities in the masking.
Or maybe I'm just projecting, based on my own mask?
Interesting thoughts
Yes, I agree with you about something being "off", though it's difficult to explain exactly what. Something about the tone. I mask differently, not being a psychopath. That influences my perspective, I'm sure.
I think what I hear in Athena's voice is enthusiasm, interest/engagement and humour, but not necessarily emotion as such.
This is a distinction that's always fascinated me in Athena's writing - the split between the NT feelings that she does seem to feel pretty normally (fun, excitement, interest, enthusiasm, humour etc) and the ones she doesn't (fear, sadness, anger, anxiety, chemical love etc). These are all 'feelings' to a neurotypical, but only the second set are really true emotions, and those are the ones that psychopaths lack.
It's like there are two different axes of feeling in humans, one axis that's present in psychopaths and one that's absent. I'm interested what the difference is between the two, it must revolve around oxytocin I guess, since that's the hormone that's knocked out in psychopathy.
It's almost like oxytocin should be called the hormone of survival - it seems to govern everything that's linked, directly or indirectly, to helping humans to survive (including all the emotions that help regulate human relationships, since those are what allow us to enjoy the protection of being part of a social group). Whereas it doesn't seem to govern any feelings that are just about enjoying the moment, like fun, enthusiasm, humour etc, based on the fact that those feelings are still present in psychopaths.
The only time I really heard emotion in Athena's voice was when she was reporting how other people speak to her when she's doing something dangerous, around the 33 mins mark - that was great mimicry/masking!
It is an interesting observation: the generally absent role of oxytocin in feelings of the moment versus the deeper regulatory role it plays in the emotions of humans as a collective. Boredom, again, relates to feelings of the moment; it exists so that humans will seek stimulation. Chronically present boredom leads to a constant search for stimulation to sate it.
Stimulation is another area of difference that interests me. Psychopaths seem to experience a resting state of hypostimulation, neurotypicals (being a very broad category) are somewhere in between, and autistics tend to experience a resting state of hyperstimulation. We often have to block out sensory input and tend to engage in the same things repeatedly. Psychopaths seem to constantly seek out variety, on the other hand.
I am curious about the connection this has to neuronal networks for all three, as it appears to be consistent with this idea. I believe there may also be less synpatic pruning in autistic individuals; with these brains often forming odd but interesting connections between unexpected areas. Perhaps this contributes to pattern-seeking strengths in some way, I am not sure. Even at a resting state, there is so much information absorbed and processed at all times.
All emotions/feelings, however, fall under the same umbrella when it comes to expression for me. Faces and voices produce floods of information, the intensity of the information increasing with the intensity of the tone (the sensory information has to be made sense of and used to read emotions). Content of speech is more important to me, but we live in a world where analysis of the delivery is very necessary. I deliver humour in what would be considered a flat tone, but masking means exaggerating it to what seems like an extreme degree to reach the expected neurotypical baseline.
If I think I sound theatrical and ridiculous, I know I've got it right!
About the voice, I noticed too. It didn't stand out to me but I did pick up on her intonation. My native language is pretty monotone so I'd say that's the main reason I noticed it.
Hey Athena! I loved your interviews.
I had a question. Happy Holloween. In 2006 I worked at a movie theater and I got to see movies for free. I saw "Grudge II" about 4 times. I guess I connect with jump scare. I sat through like 30 seconds of "Saw III" and left when they were opening up her ribs. Too much.
Here's my question. I had a thought about the feelings of guilt and empathy, which you have talked about before so I don't mean to impose, so. Am I perhaps reading into whether those movies play on the feeling of guilt? That seems more like the domain of advertising. Maybe I answered my own question.
Happy Holloween, Athena! ❤️
Before trying to answer, could you explain a bit about what you mean regarding the movies and guilt?
I asked the question on threads too with the number one answer being "the emotion (felt by the antagonist) is rage. For not being able to save one's self or having life taken from them." I think I was trying to see if I could understand guilt as a component of what I should be feeling as a viewer. But that might be subjective. I obviously feel bad for both characters but I couldn't sit through Saw. I think I just connected with the Grudge and was able to follow the story better. I didn't understand Saw.
The Saw films aren't ones that I have followed. I saw one of them, found it to be a rather run-of-the-mill story that bored me, so I haven't bothered with the others, so I can't comment on the emotional aspects of the characters in the series.
This is interesting. I’ve often wondered about your thoughts on 'the unexplained,' given your rational perspective, but never remembered to ask on Quora or here—now I know.
What’s your take on people who insist on an entirely materialistic and scientifically explained version of reality? I’ve noticed that many seem quite emotionally attached to this perspective, even while insisting it’s the only rational view, and that everyone else is letting emotion cloud their judgment (and, to be fair, some are). I have to admit, I find it amusing.
I think that they are the type that requires believing that they understand everything around them. Any unknown is ignored or explained away without any actual understanding.
You said taking off ur mask( even though it is never 100% off) causes people to become extremely uneasy and downright terrified. What do u exactly do when u say u wear the mask. Is there a certain way u keep ur eyes, eyebrows, mouth? I cannot imagine how u are able to do so constantly. Also, I think ur face without mask is just a very very relaxed face, with absolutely no tension in any facial muscle . There is always some emotional state our face conveys, like microexpressions, which shows an insight into our 'inner world ' , because we are always feeling something, some emotion. But that being absent in your case, I think people feel that absence very much.
Basically, wearing sunglasses achieves this for NTs to some degree I think. Sunglasses on a stoic face conceals a lot of facial cues, so standing in an empty elevator with such a person sounds terrifying. Perhaps it is your eyes that does the trick mostly. Completely relaxing the eyes without closing them would achieve this mask off look, and that is perhaps the most difficult part of this mask off face for an NT to achieve.
Let me know your thoughts on this.