What you have written in this post is powerful. If only we each could fulfill this approach. Mankind would be in a better world. Thank you, again and always, for writing.
Very true! It actually astounds me almost daily how vitriolic people can become, when defending their views! Sometimes, it’s as if their very essence is being threatened with brimstone and hellfire! I think that there is this notion people have, that they are nothing more than their beliefs - that this defines their very being, and without these - they would crumble or shatter into fragments!
We all are constantly expanding our knowledge every day, and when somebody seizes on a theory; shakes it around as a dog would, tearing into a bone - it only makes others wonder: ‘If they truly believe in what they are saying, why the need to defend it as if their very life is at stake?’
Being right, being wrong, they are arbitrary things to me. Being corrected gives me new information which I can use to do better. That's all that matters to me. Being right is just a matter of correct information, not an ego aspect for me. If I am right, it isn't because I did something spectacular. It just means I had that information that pertains to that situation. Nothing more.
Might have to do with how their beliefs influence their way of life and justify things they enjoy and cherish, experiences that build their memory, inner life and relationships (which one would like to honour). You are not just giving up incorrect conviction, you are giving up way of being.
And should the opposing party be allowed to do their thing, there is threat of negatively impacting your own environment and quality of life. Like those arguments during covid - pro-vaccine people accusing anti-vaccine people of endangering them all and putting strain on healthcare system and making everything drag on for longer.
This post reminds me of stuff I've been reading on The Lucifer Effect, which I might have learned about from one of your blogs. If my source wasn't you, I'm sure you would find it interesting.
But I'm pretty sure I've read one of your answers on Quora which made me think "oh I'm not even going to read that because she must be talking about the Lucifer Effect". I'm surprised you are not familiar with it. It would be of your interest.
I relate to the statement of false facts and checking someone on it or being checked yourself. It is even more complicated for me with bpd because I’m both sides of the coin at the same time splitting to one or the other depending on whether emotion drags me kicking and screaming away from logic or I stay calm. Also I loved the part about confronting misinformation etc by offering a dignified way out I do this often on a daily basis but what’s so fucking aggravating is that it seems 99 percent of people either don’t recognize your offering that route or they see it as a slight and take it offensively anyway
You can’t win or in my current aggravated state it seems so lol so obvious I see it myself. Anyway again good work Athena very intuitive
I can understand that, and I can see what you are saying that people miss the opening. For me, it is less about how someone responds or what they are able to see in that moment, and more about doing what I believe is the correct thing to do.
I mean I feel the same way just with the issues notion of I wish they would see I’m trying to show mercy for them because I care about it where as your blessed to not give a damn lol
More often than not as I look back in reflection if it’s recognized it’s more so taken as a sign of weakness that’s the problem common decency is viewed as weak I sincerely hate that. It has no bearing on how fast I would end them if I had to I wish I could make both points at the same time but can’t have your cake and eat it to.
Excellent post. If only such communication were possible. I fear it is no longer, and the situations to which you refer obliquely have been a huge source of physical and psychological distress to me lately. You are absolutely right, many people have no idea what they are wishing for or what that will mean. It's a danger that comes with not having a broad perspective, it's flying blind. Add in the cynical exploiting of people's emotions and here we are.
I think I have underestimated the extent to which people find being wrong upsetting, especially if it is a trivial matter and not part of their deep identity. My own approach is that yes, it feels awful, but it is important to take it on the chin because truth matters more than temporary embarrassment. With that in mind though, I am not a gloater, and do my best to assure people that I am not out to humiliate or judge them, but just want to be able to communicate on the same page, because truth and shared understanding matters more than some silly pleasure in being right. There is no delight in that for me, I am surprised that it is such a delight to some. I wish those conversations were not ever necessary, it would be so much less hassle.
Unfortunately, I have found that treading gently around people's feelings about their factual incorrectness is not always enough to make them feel that they have an out, because however sincere you are, however neutral, however delicate, you will STILL be ascribed motives and feelings that you just don't have ie. a desire to 'triumph' and put someone down. And they will not budge, and do the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and singing la la la. No I don't need to open the curtains to see, I tell you it's not raining. At that point I can only conclude that their ego is so fragile that this dysfunctional defensiveness is the best they can manage. It's hard then not to judge, but I haven't lived their lives so I can't truly know why they are like that.
You are so right on with this one. I couldn't agree more. Plus being right is often less important then being understanding, or being a good friend. People don't seem to get thant anymore.. plus when you're wrong it's so easy to say"my bad" or I stand corrected . I guess it depends on your values .
This post reflects on wisdom of biblical tale about Prodigal Son. Returning back proven wrong is hard enough in itself, so how about being welcoming...
And other times it hints at existence of parntal favoritism. :D
Thank you for your thoughts on this, as they are so different from my own experience, I find it very interesting to read about it from another perspective. People need to be better about their response to being right, so the response to being wrong isn't so negative.
What you said about pity being addicting, there is an excellent quote about that:
Self pity is easily the most destructive of the nonpharmaceutical narcotics; is it addictive, gives momentary pleasure, and separates the victim from reality.
I have been watching both sides, and seeing the absolute glee at being right seems to have a chilling effect on someone wanting to admit that they are incorrect
It is thoughtless and unkind for people to do this, but given that sometimes they will, I can only say it's best if you can detach yourself from their aggression so that it is no longer a factor in what you say or admit. I am not pretending that this is easy- I can deal with it for the most part, but for me personally, an angry man who is someone I care about is terrifying and paralyzing. Brain turns to mush, emotional overload. I am not proud of this, it's infuriating, and it makes me sell myself short, but I understand the reasons why I am like this and still hope to change it. Maybe it's too hardwired, maybe not. We all have our different buttons. Holding true to our core values can give is strength.
This is not about your humility, the conduct you describe, if frequent, is not acceptable. You need to decide how much of that you are willing to put up with in your life.
What you have written in this post is powerful. If only we each could fulfill this approach. Mankind would be in a better world. Thank you, again and always, for writing.
Thank you for reading, NB
I look forward to your posts and insight 🙏
Very true! It actually astounds me almost daily how vitriolic people can become, when defending their views! Sometimes, it’s as if their very essence is being threatened with brimstone and hellfire! I think that there is this notion people have, that they are nothing more than their beliefs - that this defines their very being, and without these - they would crumble or shatter into fragments!
We all are constantly expanding our knowledge every day, and when somebody seizes on a theory; shakes it around as a dog would, tearing into a bone - it only makes others wonder: ‘If they truly believe in what they are saying, why the need to defend it as if their very life is at stake?’
Indeed, most curious behavior, I agree.
Being right, being wrong, they are arbitrary things to me. Being corrected gives me new information which I can use to do better. That's all that matters to me. Being right is just a matter of correct information, not an ego aspect for me. If I am right, it isn't because I did something spectacular. It just means I had that information that pertains to that situation. Nothing more.
I couldn’t agree more!
Might have to do with how their beliefs influence their way of life and justify things they enjoy and cherish, experiences that build their memory, inner life and relationships (which one would like to honour). You are not just giving up incorrect conviction, you are giving up way of being.
And should the opposing party be allowed to do their thing, there is threat of negatively impacting your own environment and quality of life. Like those arguments during covid - pro-vaccine people accusing anti-vaccine people of endangering them all and putting strain on healthcare system and making everything drag on for longer.
This post reminds me of stuff I've been reading on The Lucifer Effect, which I might have learned about from one of your blogs. If my source wasn't you, I'm sure you would find it interesting.
You didn't hear about it from me, as I am not familiar with it that I can remember. It sounds interesting though.
But I'm pretty sure I've read one of your answers on Quora which made me think "oh I'm not even going to read that because she must be talking about the Lucifer Effect". I'm surprised you are not familiar with it. It would be of your interest.
I looked it up, and found it is written by the same guy that did the Stanford Prison Experiment. Indeed I would find it interesting.
Thanks for the tip off, I'm looking into this now, interesting stuff.
I relate to the statement of false facts and checking someone on it or being checked yourself. It is even more complicated for me with bpd because I’m both sides of the coin at the same time splitting to one or the other depending on whether emotion drags me kicking and screaming away from logic or I stay calm. Also I loved the part about confronting misinformation etc by offering a dignified way out I do this often on a daily basis but what’s so fucking aggravating is that it seems 99 percent of people either don’t recognize your offering that route or they see it as a slight and take it offensively anyway
You can’t win or in my current aggravated state it seems so lol so obvious I see it myself. Anyway again good work Athena very intuitive
I can understand that, and I can see what you are saying that people miss the opening. For me, it is less about how someone responds or what they are able to see in that moment, and more about doing what I believe is the correct thing to do.
I mean I feel the same way just with the issues notion of I wish they would see I’m trying to show mercy for them because I care about it where as your blessed to not give a damn lol
More often than not as I look back in reflection if it’s recognized it’s more so taken as a sign of weakness that’s the problem common decency is viewed as weak I sincerely hate that. It has no bearing on how fast I would end them if I had to I wish I could make both points at the same time but can’t have your cake and eat it to.
Excellent post. If only such communication were possible. I fear it is no longer, and the situations to which you refer obliquely have been a huge source of physical and psychological distress to me lately. You are absolutely right, many people have no idea what they are wishing for or what that will mean. It's a danger that comes with not having a broad perspective, it's flying blind. Add in the cynical exploiting of people's emotions and here we are.
I think I have underestimated the extent to which people find being wrong upsetting, especially if it is a trivial matter and not part of their deep identity. My own approach is that yes, it feels awful, but it is important to take it on the chin because truth matters more than temporary embarrassment. With that in mind though, I am not a gloater, and do my best to assure people that I am not out to humiliate or judge them, but just want to be able to communicate on the same page, because truth and shared understanding matters more than some silly pleasure in being right. There is no delight in that for me, I am surprised that it is such a delight to some. I wish those conversations were not ever necessary, it would be so much less hassle.
Unfortunately, I have found that treading gently around people's feelings about their factual incorrectness is not always enough to make them feel that they have an out, because however sincere you are, however neutral, however delicate, you will STILL be ascribed motives and feelings that you just don't have ie. a desire to 'triumph' and put someone down. And they will not budge, and do the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and singing la la la. No I don't need to open the curtains to see, I tell you it's not raining. At that point I can only conclude that their ego is so fragile that this dysfunctional defensiveness is the best they can manage. It's hard then not to judge, but I haven't lived their lives so I can't truly know why they are like that.
Yes, indeed, I have seen this same thing myself. It makes it quite difficult to overcome, I agree.
You are so right on with this one. I couldn't agree more. Plus being right is often less important then being understanding, or being a good friend. People don't seem to get thant anymore.. plus when you're wrong it's so easy to say"my bad" or I stand corrected . I guess it depends on your values .
This post reflects on wisdom of biblical tale about Prodigal Son. Returning back proven wrong is hard enough in itself, so how about being welcoming...
And other times it hints at existence of parntal favoritism. :D
Thank you for your thoughts on this, as they are so different from my own experience, I find it very interesting to read about it from another perspective. People need to be better about their response to being right, so the response to being wrong isn't so negative.
What you said about pity being addicting, there is an excellent quote about that:
Self pity is easily the most destructive of the nonpharmaceutical narcotics; is it addictive, gives momentary pleasure, and separates the victim from reality.
~John W. Gardner
I agree, and that is a problem with how people interact unfortunately
You have explained this beautifully. And I had not considered people not admitting error because 'you can't be vulnerable with everyone'.
I have been watching both sides, and seeing the absolute glee at being right seems to have a chilling effect on someone wanting to admit that they are incorrect
It is thoughtless and unkind for people to do this, but given that sometimes they will, I can only say it's best if you can detach yourself from their aggression so that it is no longer a factor in what you say or admit. I am not pretending that this is easy- I can deal with it for the most part, but for me personally, an angry man who is someone I care about is terrifying and paralyzing. Brain turns to mush, emotional overload. I am not proud of this, it's infuriating, and it makes me sell myself short, but I understand the reasons why I am like this and still hope to change it. Maybe it's too hardwired, maybe not. We all have our different buttons. Holding true to our core values can give is strength.
People who act that way are pretty unfortunate individuals.
This is not about your humility, the conduct you describe, if frequent, is not acceptable. You need to decide how much of that you are willing to put up with in your life.
Very well said