Quality over quantity has always been my moto when it comes to friends. I don't consider that I have many actual 'friends' over acquaintances. I spent much of my youth moving almost yearly; I ran away at 16, and when I could travel without threat of being dragged back to foster care/juvie, I spent the next three years bopping around the country homeless. It has made it hard for me to form attachments with people. I will say that I learned a lot about the nature of people from living on the streets and traveling to so many different places, and I'm actually an extreme empath able to pick up on emotions and intentions having been noted to be able to read people well. That said, I think that like anything else, empathy isn't just feelings but also a developed skill. I honed it from sitting back and observing others. I've always learned more from listening than from speaking, the adage from Gandhi comes to mind, "Speak only if it improves upon the silence." When I ran away, I became a chameleon to blend in with anyone who I happened to be around taking parts of myself that was relatable to those around me and exemplifying it be amicable to those around me. It reminds me very much of the mask you speak of. As an introvert, it was mentally exhausting, but it was a survival mechanism that I needed to develop to get by.
Your depiction of arguing with a petty person seems like a game of chess moving in to checkmate. Amusing in a calculated way. I rarely get into arguments with anyone other than my SO since most people's opinions don't effect me on an emotional level. I feel others emotions more than my own on average (which might sound strange, but I think I spend so much energy taking in the environment around me that I am often too depleted to feel them for myself.) Your maskless side sounds like a relief. I would prefer it. I know that we don't 'know' each other over a few internet exchanges and the articles I've interacted with, but I enjoy your reflection and intelligence. You're a person that I would consider
a worthy candidate to be a friend. Friends to me, as your SO stated, are those who you can rely on when you need them and who you would be willing to do the same for. Having something stimulating to share and reflect upon is a given, but moreover honesty and as you stated loyalty are key. I'm rather blunt and unapologetic, and I like that trait in others. Life's too short for drama, so being laid back is also a given requirement 😅
Mar 10, 2022·edited Mar 11, 2022Liked by Athena Walker
Okay, this starts as a digression, but isn't....
It's often said that women hate other women. Gross over-generalization aside, I heard an interesting discussion a few years back about it, from people who study evolutionary forces on humans.* Their premise was that early men, as hunters, had greater reason to develop cooperative abilities than women; the teamwork aspect of hunting large animals meant that the strength of another man went from being a personal threat to a personal advantage. The activities that early women participated in, while often group-based, still required less in the way of teamwork: the individual abilities of another woman were less likely to create personal benefits for the group, and more likely to mean fewer resources for the women without those abilities. According to the discussion, this stage of human development explained why women tended to compete with each other rather than cooperating.
I found the discussion very interesting, because, well, I don't really like other women, and I REALLY don't like working with them. There are a whole bunch of different reasons, which I won't bother to list, but which can generally be sorted into two categories: I've always had much more stereotypically male interests and thought patterns, and the other women I've known are indeed worse at teamwork than men.
But as I was thinking about it, I noticed something: the less another woman is like me, the more likely it is that I'll like her. Most of my female friends are either a generation older than me, or share very few of my natural talents, skillset, and personality traits. I like myself just fine, but not if I meet myself in doppelganger form.
Turns out that the closer a woman is to filling the same niche I fill, the less I like her. Evolutionarily speaking, she is 100% threat, and 0% asset. If the two of us are the same, then my knee-jerk reaction does indeed wind up being that SHE is unnecessary.
* Can't remember exactly who now, but probably either Jordan Peterson, Gad Saad, or Eric (oops! I mean Bret) Weinstein was involved.
Mar 16, 2022·edited Mar 16, 2022Liked by Athena Walker
You said once that multitasking is BS. How can you listen to somebody and write, cook, etc. at the same time? I would find it difficult to do one properly.
Not as such, he was not vain, but a great raw intelligence completely untrained and a life lived completely unexamined. Terrible brash combination of arrogance and ignorance, which then leads easily to ugliness. A proudly self-made fool.
I can only speculate about friendship with a psycopath, but I think lot comes down to something I have long called the person's 'Weirdness Threshold'. It's a very conspicuous difference between people who have let their life narrowly and those who have struck out wildly. As kids, every tiny difference in dress, mannerisms, ability etc. was noticeable, laughable, frightening, and judged. With time and experience, so much that is really not important fortunately goes genuinely unnoticed. If someone is familiar with different cultures, disabilities, worldviews, lifestyles, whatever, then hopefully psycopathy would be no impediment to friendship, as despite the vast difference in everyday mental experience, their values and conduct may well be similar.
I wonder about myself though. Years ago, I was so uncontrollably emotional that no, it would not have worked at all. Fundamentally though I am a "just give it a go" person when I like someone, so I hope that I nowdays could be friends with any neurotype. In fact, the more I learn about people in my life, the more I realise that I already have been!
I very much look forward to writings by your friend.
I will write few things that came to my mind while reading (probably a bit off from main topic though):
1)
you have mentioned few times that you lack oxytocin (and thus - emotions). Isn't it like nearly sure test (or at least strong indicator that if positive it might sugest more verification) if someone is psychopath? Is it possible to test presence of oxytocin? (quick google search leads to something else about pregnancy and oxytocin so not related)
2)
i have discussed some of the information i have read here on your blog with my friends/collegues. This will reveal why i asked nr 1) - after that discussion we have strong suspicion that one of them might have some psychopatic traits (including him thinking this too of course). I have recomended him to go check your site but (as expected) he bluntly said he will have no time/interest at his moment (slim chances) but if i find any other interesting information i can draw the essence and share with him.
What was my intention here: from what i understand - beeing aware that someone is psychopath can make life much easier both for the psychopath and everyone around them (there is probably some drawback too that as i can gladly see you are actively fighting it here - stereotypes combined with herd mentality that might lead to "burn the witch" incidents in one way or another...).
Good example what i mean here is this - understanding situation and predictable behaviors. I have asked mentioned friend if i understand corectly (based on what i was reading here) what would happen in this hypothetical scenario:
- zombie appocalypse breaks out. For him to "team up" with me and increase chances of survival i would have to prove usefull in some way or another (i.e. i have a gun and know how to use it or i am good at hacking and there is a chance i can get us in otherwise unavailable places or i can make some good food). Otherwise he will just ditch me at first possible occasion - is that right? His answer was short: "yes".
Simple and genuine - and now i know what to do when zombie appocalypse breaks out if i want to stay on the team :).
3)
When i found out your blog (thank you for beeing active on Quora) i was wondering if i might be psychopath too but soon enough dismissed the thought. Most likely i am highly functioning autistic and i think there are some similarities but with different genesis/source:
- i am not fond of physical interactions (but not liking something is different than beeing indifferent to it or not needing it)
- i have strong conscious cognitive empathy (which kind of might look like lack of empathy but it is just different type i think) - really usefull for lie detecting.
- i very rarely worry about what others think or speak of me (unless it is straight up lie that intends to criple me in some way - then i just try to expose it).
- i put on weird masks around people (unconsciously mimicking their state of emotions so in a different way than you mention it). What is really worth underlining here - around that friend i mentioned who might be psychopatch - i feel... neutral (if that makes sense). My state is basicly the same if i am alone or he is around.
Why i mention this here: i used search on your blog for "autistic" and the word appears few times too so you might have some knowledge (had no time to read those articles yet but will get there in time probably). What i was thinking is this: there are few categories marked as "disorders" (psychopatic, narcissistic, autistic, ...). I am not exactly sure why it is called disorder though... like... sure - mind is wired differently that is clear (and knowing how it is different can be really usefull). But dissorder means something is not right or needs fixing. From what i can tell there is nothing to fix.
Quality over quantity has always been my moto when it comes to friends. I don't consider that I have many actual 'friends' over acquaintances. I spent much of my youth moving almost yearly; I ran away at 16, and when I could travel without threat of being dragged back to foster care/juvie, I spent the next three years bopping around the country homeless. It has made it hard for me to form attachments with people. I will say that I learned a lot about the nature of people from living on the streets and traveling to so many different places, and I'm actually an extreme empath able to pick up on emotions and intentions having been noted to be able to read people well. That said, I think that like anything else, empathy isn't just feelings but also a developed skill. I honed it from sitting back and observing others. I've always learned more from listening than from speaking, the adage from Gandhi comes to mind, "Speak only if it improves upon the silence." When I ran away, I became a chameleon to blend in with anyone who I happened to be around taking parts of myself that was relatable to those around me and exemplifying it be amicable to those around me. It reminds me very much of the mask you speak of. As an introvert, it was mentally exhausting, but it was a survival mechanism that I needed to develop to get by.
Your depiction of arguing with a petty person seems like a game of chess moving in to checkmate. Amusing in a calculated way. I rarely get into arguments with anyone other than my SO since most people's opinions don't effect me on an emotional level. I feel others emotions more than my own on average (which might sound strange, but I think I spend so much energy taking in the environment around me that I am often too depleted to feel them for myself.) Your maskless side sounds like a relief. I would prefer it. I know that we don't 'know' each other over a few internet exchanges and the articles I've interacted with, but I enjoy your reflection and intelligence. You're a person that I would consider
a worthy candidate to be a friend. Friends to me, as your SO stated, are those who you can rely on when you need them and who you would be willing to do the same for. Having something stimulating to share and reflect upon is a given, but moreover honesty and as you stated loyalty are key. I'm rather blunt and unapologetic, and I like that trait in others. Life's too short for drama, so being laid back is also a given requirement 😅
Okay, this starts as a digression, but isn't....
It's often said that women hate other women. Gross over-generalization aside, I heard an interesting discussion a few years back about it, from people who study evolutionary forces on humans.* Their premise was that early men, as hunters, had greater reason to develop cooperative abilities than women; the teamwork aspect of hunting large animals meant that the strength of another man went from being a personal threat to a personal advantage. The activities that early women participated in, while often group-based, still required less in the way of teamwork: the individual abilities of another woman were less likely to create personal benefits for the group, and more likely to mean fewer resources for the women without those abilities. According to the discussion, this stage of human development explained why women tended to compete with each other rather than cooperating.
I found the discussion very interesting, because, well, I don't really like other women, and I REALLY don't like working with them. There are a whole bunch of different reasons, which I won't bother to list, but which can generally be sorted into two categories: I've always had much more stereotypically male interests and thought patterns, and the other women I've known are indeed worse at teamwork than men.
But as I was thinking about it, I noticed something: the less another woman is like me, the more likely it is that I'll like her. Most of my female friends are either a generation older than me, or share very few of my natural talents, skillset, and personality traits. I like myself just fine, but not if I meet myself in doppelganger form.
Turns out that the closer a woman is to filling the same niche I fill, the less I like her. Evolutionarily speaking, she is 100% threat, and 0% asset. If the two of us are the same, then my knee-jerk reaction does indeed wind up being that SHE is unnecessary.
* Can't remember exactly who now, but probably either Jordan Peterson, Gad Saad, or Eric (oops! I mean Bret) Weinstein was involved.
You said once that multitasking is BS. How can you listen to somebody and write, cook, etc. at the same time? I would find it difficult to do one properly.
Not as such, he was not vain, but a great raw intelligence completely untrained and a life lived completely unexamined. Terrible brash combination of arrogance and ignorance, which then leads easily to ugliness. A proudly self-made fool.
I don't know either!
You mentioned that you have thrown people under the bus before. Could you recount an incident as an example?
I can only speculate about friendship with a psycopath, but I think lot comes down to something I have long called the person's 'Weirdness Threshold'. It's a very conspicuous difference between people who have let their life narrowly and those who have struck out wildly. As kids, every tiny difference in dress, mannerisms, ability etc. was noticeable, laughable, frightening, and judged. With time and experience, so much that is really not important fortunately goes genuinely unnoticed. If someone is familiar with different cultures, disabilities, worldviews, lifestyles, whatever, then hopefully psycopathy would be no impediment to friendship, as despite the vast difference in everyday mental experience, their values and conduct may well be similar.
I wonder about myself though. Years ago, I was so uncontrollably emotional that no, it would not have worked at all. Fundamentally though I am a "just give it a go" person when I like someone, so I hope that I nowdays could be friends with any neurotype. In fact, the more I learn about people in my life, the more I realise that I already have been!
I very much look forward to writings by your friend.
So you are willing to show your close ones your investment in them, but to an extent , right? You won't be self sacrificial for them, is that right?
I will write few things that came to my mind while reading (probably a bit off from main topic though):
1)
you have mentioned few times that you lack oxytocin (and thus - emotions). Isn't it like nearly sure test (or at least strong indicator that if positive it might sugest more verification) if someone is psychopath? Is it possible to test presence of oxytocin? (quick google search leads to something else about pregnancy and oxytocin so not related)
2)
i have discussed some of the information i have read here on your blog with my friends/collegues. This will reveal why i asked nr 1) - after that discussion we have strong suspicion that one of them might have some psychopatic traits (including him thinking this too of course). I have recomended him to go check your site but (as expected) he bluntly said he will have no time/interest at his moment (slim chances) but if i find any other interesting information i can draw the essence and share with him.
What was my intention here: from what i understand - beeing aware that someone is psychopath can make life much easier both for the psychopath and everyone around them (there is probably some drawback too that as i can gladly see you are actively fighting it here - stereotypes combined with herd mentality that might lead to "burn the witch" incidents in one way or another...).
Good example what i mean here is this - understanding situation and predictable behaviors. I have asked mentioned friend if i understand corectly (based on what i was reading here) what would happen in this hypothetical scenario:
- zombie appocalypse breaks out. For him to "team up" with me and increase chances of survival i would have to prove usefull in some way or another (i.e. i have a gun and know how to use it or i am good at hacking and there is a chance i can get us in otherwise unavailable places or i can make some good food). Otherwise he will just ditch me at first possible occasion - is that right? His answer was short: "yes".
Simple and genuine - and now i know what to do when zombie appocalypse breaks out if i want to stay on the team :).
3)
When i found out your blog (thank you for beeing active on Quora) i was wondering if i might be psychopath too but soon enough dismissed the thought. Most likely i am highly functioning autistic and i think there are some similarities but with different genesis/source:
- i am not fond of physical interactions (but not liking something is different than beeing indifferent to it or not needing it)
- i have strong conscious cognitive empathy (which kind of might look like lack of empathy but it is just different type i think) - really usefull for lie detecting.
- i very rarely worry about what others think or speak of me (unless it is straight up lie that intends to criple me in some way - then i just try to expose it).
- i put on weird masks around people (unconsciously mimicking their state of emotions so in a different way than you mention it). What is really worth underlining here - around that friend i mentioned who might be psychopatch - i feel... neutral (if that makes sense). My state is basicly the same if i am alone or he is around.
Why i mention this here: i used search on your blog for "autistic" and the word appears few times too so you might have some knowledge (had no time to read those articles yet but will get there in time probably). What i was thinking is this: there are few categories marked as "disorders" (psychopatic, narcissistic, autistic, ...). I am not exactly sure why it is called disorder though... like... sure - mind is wired differently that is clear (and knowing how it is different can be really usefull). But dissorder means something is not right or needs fixing. From what i can tell there is nothing to fix.