He said, "I know you are sad. I know you are angry. I can't help you with that. Just go home. Just leave." He wasn't being nasty, vitriolic, or plain mean. I remember that feeling where it seems my mind is focused intensely on his lack of passion, care, or concern but my stomach, my heart, my lungs were melting. And I hated him for that. How could he have this ability to split my beingness into parts simply speaking words. It had been two months since we broke up because he got his best gal pal from home pregnant over winter break. I found out because the woman called me and told me. She also wanted me to know some things about Bradley. He was very different. She loved and hated him. He cared about himself only. Etc. Etc. Etc
Athena, due to that relationship I have gone on to study psychology. We were in college at Oberlin in Ohio. Freshmen year. It was awful. It has always shocked people when I tell them that I wasn't actually angry with him. He never pretended he was anything but what he was. I found some of his qualities so calm, so soothing, and he was fucking beautiful. Get this: we met playing LaCrosse. How Abercrombie and Bitch is that?!?! Lordy.
What I can't understand fully is if he was aware of his adaptation or just other way of experiencing relationships, did he not tell me because he thought I would run away? But he wanted what he wanted? Here is the thing: I knew he was very different. He liked few things but I liked those things. Maybe he was invested for a time for those reasons? The split was quick. I blamed it on his carelessness but I knew it had nothing to do with his best friend at home. Yes, it fucked me up but not because of him, per se. The realization that I projected and colored him in with my desires and that when I would see clearly, it would split my being. Hard to explain. I can feel that surgical compartmentalizing once in a while. My therapists have all said I am the kind of person psychopaths would find interesting. I give folk all the space they need. Turns out I don't have to react like a normal NT. Lol. He told me once, "You are a beautiful person. You fascinate me." It would make me feel a bit like Gizmo or ET when he said that. Thanks, Athena. Something cool just happened for me. You rock.
He likely knew that he was different, but it is unlikely that he knew exactly how. It isn't something that is easy to figure out. You are immediately confronted by a litany of articles that describe psychopathy in a way that no one can relate to.
I am not a pyschopath, as I can have bouts of extreme sadness during loss, but then on the flipside I am generally very calm and void of most emotions. I have been yelled at, hit, and I can withstand it without a single reaction. To me, its absurd. I do not understand why anyone would act like that. Ever.
I do feel anxious, but never jealous.
And I require moments of cuddling or "bonding", but its actually for entertainment and stems from boredom with said person.
I.e. Id never call someone to cuddle!! But if Im living with them, Ill hop on their lap and talk to them. Otherwise Im bored with them.
I do not feel lonely, ever. I consider myself an extroverted recluse.
And I do not feel love, except for a fleeting feeling of excitement or heavenly moments. I have to actively try to relate to others versus only investing in them. This is a big one lately I am working on. But whenever I notice they connect with me, I actively dissaciate from them. Also a big thing Im working on. Unsure what that is? Fearful of having to maintain that mode?
I invest everything the person I date could ever want or need, and then wonder why they play games. I never bat an eye at what they do and just watch them.
I also hardly care if they cheat and never once have cheated. As you wrote, it doesnt even cross my mind as necessary.
It doesnt bother me if they cheat, though, because "most people cheat and thats normal". I think because I am not emotionally invested, but perhaps there is an emotional disconnect?
Even the inability to remember faces or entire people or events is frequent with me.
I enjoy my solitude so much that you have to be very special for me to allow you into my home or make time for you. This has always been the case since I was a child. And I discarded people like that. Able to do things like, put them in jail if they betrayed me severely enough and not shed a single tear or concern. Not even think about them ever again if I choose. Sometimes I wonder if Im not a hybrid of some sort!!!
Like what is this person that gives someone their whole heart but is able to snatch it back in an instant?
You might be one of the people that would qualify as a borderline psychopath. When I say borderline, I am referring to having several psychopathic traits, but not all of them, which likely is caused by having some of the structure change, and some of the different chemical processing in the brain.
I wonder if you have even been addicted to anything, even something like cigarettes, or even caffeine, or if you have been prescribed medication for something only to have it not work for you at all the way it is meant to?
I smoked marijuana in HS and even my dad told me I looked sober when I brought all my friends over high. The first time I smoked an entire bowl and felt exactly the same. Not giggly, hungry. It was like I had taken nothing.
I did it just for the act.I never had any effects like hunger or sleepiness. It was somehow an escape.
I would occasionally get excited or extremely paranoid if it was a bad strain. The withdrawals were definitely there, though. Bad.
I also took LSD in HS. I would be completely "in control". People would be yelling, naked, running, hurting themselves/others. I would literally just stand there like "hey, no need to yell. Hey, put your clothes on. Hey, if you do that you will get injured, cant you see that?" It was a total bore. I felt like a babysitter. I only did it 3x before it just seemed like a waste of time and money.
I also took pain killers (as you can see, I went crazy in HS) which I got extremely addicted too. Like. Hiding them, lying, spending all my money on them, alseep for 16 hours level.
My most common symptom is blacking out. I have blacked out on LSD - once immediately after taking at 10pm, so I woke up to standing over ciggarettes at 8 in the morning continuing a thought I had.
I blackout on certain liquors, so I avoid those now. And they make me actually murderous. I am not kidding. Its so weird. So I just do not do that. Ever.
Cigarettes do nothing. The first time I smoked an entire pack, 2 weeks into smoking, and felt no different. Again. Waste of time and money.
But I am completely sober. I dont smoke. Its been 10 years of sobriety. Because it just doesnt do anything for me and the withdrawals are not worth it. I love being in control and I do not want to risk that.
As for coffee, its hit or miss. Normally I dont feel a damn thing but if its a particularly strong brew, I get energized and excited.
It is really interesting how the effects are so varied. Your responses to a lot of things mirror mine, such as pot having no effect at all.
I haven't tried LSD, but when I drink I am like you describe on it. Very with it, and watching other people lose their minds. I think that they want to lose their minds. It seems to be like an escape so they don't just surrender to it, they chase it. I think it is so they can feel free from their inhibitions. For me, even after a great deal of drinking, it just screws up my motor controls and speech. I remember everything, and can still function.
You certainly have some interesting aspects to how your brain responds to things.
This reminds me the absinthe effect. Absinthe (the real stuff) can make people feel far more sober than they are, and function well, but meanwhile you can ingest enough to poison yourself and boy, will you pay later!
I think a lot of people do it to numb their pain or distract themselves from reality; but for me, I cannot ever escape reality (actually, I'd much rather be IN reality). I can naturally numb my pain, even physical, so it really is a total waste!
Yes. Withdrawals/hungover. I also took Ectasy, and didn't feel those "lovey-dovey" feelings whatsoever and didn't engage in sex when everyone around me seemed to want it. I merely petted someone's hair and complimented them on how beautiful they were. It is very easy for me to quit an addiction or habit of any kind because I can just "not care" and move on.
I do not either. I do enjoy a toxic man in my life. I have no friends, but I have had relationships for years. That is my kryptonite. I am currently working on that now.
I want to preface all of this with I am a very committed partner. I know who I am and what I can do, but I choose to be loyal and dedicated to only one partner. I will work very hard to do everything I can to make them happy, and with die trying to make the relationship actually work.
I learned only recently what toxic traits are in men and women. I suppose toxic is a buzzword now, but for example, I never knew belittling your partner verbally was abusive. Now I know. I also recently learned about the pattern of mine I'm about to describe, so if this is jumbled, it's because I haven't figured it out yet myself and am learning.
I enjoy the emotionally unavailable/addict/lost/cheater type of men. A liar. A player, if you will. A man that is hooked to his vices, struggles with sobriety, who is unable or unwilling to really dedicate to being successful, and who will work very hard to convince me of his false reality while I just nod along and think to myself, "oh boy, I know it already and I don't even need a shred of evidence".
If he comes home absolutely shit faced after cheating on me all night, that is extremely attractive to me. He is so unstable. I just want to pet him and fawn over him and feed him and care for him.
I get the most excited with the facade of a committed relationship just to have sex. Where a man presents himself as wanting a committed relationship, but actually has many women in rotation and cheats.
He typically also likes women like me, who are smaller and more innocent looking, whereas he is very strong and has a "killer instinct" about him.
Oh boy, I will lose my rockers if he discards and picks me back up. That just drives me nuts with desire. You thought you could leave and resist but you're back in my bed. It just turns me on to another level.
It appeals to me because they also typically will work very hard for me, and God this sounds terrible, but I love seeing how they work so hard for me to "fall for them" when I cannot ever love them in the fullest sense and can just easily drop them. Like, yeah, I may get my emotions turned on and feel for them, but I can just switch it off and move on.
And these interactions are because THEY started it with ME. I did not ask for it. I will stare directly in their eyes, unemotional, and state very matter of fact: "I won't love you" or "I don't want to date you" or "this is only temporary".
I will blow them off. Ignore them. Ghost them. Not even show up for the date. They persist, they are relentless. And this turns me on a lot.
But they chase me. There are so many men like this, too. It's wild. So. Many.
And, I won't even think about them again. They think they can/do just ruin me and I'm like, head over heels or something because I can put in an equal or even greater effort, but their absence brings so much peace and deep down I know the only reason I was ever with them was for sex.
Which by the way, I stop needing after about 6 months and am "bored". Reading Athena's posts made me realize why this is clearer, though again, I am capable of deep emotion so I don't think I am a pyschopath. I think I have just learned very well how to handle my impulses and emotions.
But yeah, if they don't do the chase, I don't ever get turned on again. Period. Like if they aren't trying for me, I'll try for them to get them back on me, but if they don't reciprocate, it's like. Whatever. I'll just never have sex then and do everything else in our relationship we need to get done.
And what Athena wrote, about the exchange/transaction.
10000000%. I date you because you provide something I cannot get myself or need, which if you can't already tell is #1 Sex and #2 Protection. That's it. That is all I need from a man.
Does that make sense?
It is kind of like I enjoy the predator-prey scenario, but I am acting the part of prey when in reality I know exactly what is going on. I feed into the game until I'm done. Because if they know I know, they run.
This is so detailed and I'm sorry about that. Hope it answers some questions, though.
I appreciate your in-depth description very much. I've been a Dominatrix for a quite a while; seems you are as well in certain ways. By this I mean being in control of the relationship/situation. The Predator/Prey aspect is popular in BDSM, though I've never engaged in it and don't care to.
It's known as a form of "power exchange."
My next question is: Have you ever felt protected?
My last partner I chose purely for sex and percieved protection.
I am very physically small and was getting hit on a lot in the workplace, which I dont find flattering at all but annoying.
I told him I only wanted to date him to get the dogs off, as a bodyguard, and for sex. He agreed.
I am always in a sort of survival mode, Ive learned, so no, I dont think I have felt protected even with a guy like him (6'3, killer type guy with no remorse, beard, weapons always on him and loaded).
I dont feel perfectly safe with my German Shepherds.
Or my AR15.
But as you can see, I surround myself with protective resources - even if its purely perception.
As for Dominatrix, my family has always joked since I was a kid that I was one. But I do not like pain inflicted on myself or others, thought doesnt cross my mind, so not exactly sure the coorelation.
I tell myself that maybe the people Ive come across are just overly emotional, unstable, and impulsive. And Im just. Not. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe Im just not around normal people!
I didn’t mean to say that the absolute majority of people are like you, but plenty are. I can name you a handful of people I know who are like that from what I know. It can be true. It also depends on the country where you live. Cultural differences are real.
A red flag for me is that I can experience harm, physically or emotionally, as well as witness it, and be unaffected entirely. I find that to be different. Even the most stable people I know, would feel pangs of anger, sadness, leave even (I can/could stay). Especially with the cheating - I can't think of a one who would be totally okay with their partner browsing porn, paying for an Only Fans account, and going out for sexual exploits and NOT panic, rage, leave. Etc. I do find this "different".
If it is addressed to me, the first two sentences I can somewhat relate to. I will be angry if I am harmed physically, but witnessing it won’t affect me emotionally I think. I am also fine with my partner watching porn, I don’t know what sexual exploits mean but I think that I cannot relate to lol. I mean, it can be different and though I don’t want to devalue your experience, it still doesn’t sound that unusual.
Another important read. I’ve often forgotten ex-peoples’ names. Romantic or platonic. Once someone is not in my life anymore, and I learned the lesson, I don’t see a point in devoting precious memory space to them. I have cried after a breakup, but looking back, it was a definitely a performance; expected for their benefit. So I delivered. I can remember my tears immediately drying up and feeling immensely calm while driving away and never looking back.
(People who go back to their exes over and over genuinely mystify me.)
Many people tell themselves little lies so they can sleep at night. They have to, because lacking answers is uncomfortable.
Also, this line: “My preferred state is one of solitude. If someone comes along and improves upon that state I will make adjustments to accommodate them in my life. If they leave, I return to my preferred state.”
I have said some form of this to myself for years, but whenever I shared it out loud, people around me would say, “oh, you’ll change your mind someday when you find the right person”. Unsure if that’s true. I really do strongly prefer and thoroughly enjoy being alone.
It's so interesting how often people will try to convince you that you aren't how you know that you are. I heard this a great deal when people found out I wasn't interested in having children. I was often told how I would change my mind, how I will hear the call of the biological clock... my knowledge that I didn't want children never changed, however.
If your newsletter has helped me realize anything, it’s just how carefully I’ve hidden the parts of myself that don’t seem to function in the same way as others’ do.
are so heartbroken by the fact that they will not be thought about after the break up. If I end a relationship with someone or they do with me it is for a reason, so I will forget about them and I expect that they will forget about me. I am okay with that. My life goes on and so does theirs.
Similarly I cannot comprehend why some people care so much about their partner’s exes and hate them just because they are their exes. Like why do you care? You literally have never even met these people.
In this regard I would prefer someone with attitude like yours as a partner.
I think it is because they then feel like they don't matter despite the fact that they obviously did matter to the other person as long as the relationship lasted. It seems to somehow make them feel less than. It's only a guess though really. Observations that I have made over the years, but not having any clue what that is like emotionally, I may be way off the mark.
That you mattered for a time doesn't cancel out the hurt of not mattering anymore. You might not necessarily feel less than, but mattering has been such a thing in your life that its sudden removal can feel like withdrawals.
Why does it matter to you if you matter to them at all?
Like during a relationship I get it, it makes sense and as Athena said, they did matter during a relationship, but afterwards isn’t it normal that they don’t anymore? Why does it hurt you?
I don’t think mattering exists as a thing. You cannot really feel like you matter and if you can somehow what is the value of it?
I wish I could give a better answer, but it just does matter. Not forever, or even necessarily for very long, depending on the situation, but at first, the sudden shift is difficult to deal with. I am not good with sudden change, it's like turning a ship, but I get there in time.
I have never had a nasty prolonged breakup or anything like that, no stalking! I have remained close friends with one ex, accepted the loss of others and would be friendly if I ran into them. One was contemptible and I would not talk to them. It's not as though years later I still care that they no longer care about me, because by now I don't care about them either. It's just that at the time the sudden removal of that care, normal or not, was very upsetting for those relationships where I was deeply emotionally invested.
I should also say that abandonment was a huge issue for me which made things even more painful, but I did all I could to learn to experience life's normal upsets to a more normal degree. That doesn't mean I can be as pragmatic as you and Athena though!
I am not deeply emotionally involved in relationships I think, I can terminate a relationship at any time and not think much about it if there is a reason, like if they cheat or betray me. I will not be happy if a relationship ends for no normal reason, or if they die, but I will deal with it as well.
I think the difference between us is that for me it will take a couple of days to stop thinking about a person occasionally, and for you it’s longer.
I have had relationships where I was not deeply involved, so I can imagine what it is like for people for whom that is the norm. Some brief sadness when it ends, or none at all. But I have also had to seek professional help for protracted grief which was destroying me (and I found that really, there is no help for these things, only time, a LONG time). So I have experienced both ways of being. Your way is better by far.
Being older, I think I have better expectations regarding relationships than I once did. But if I'm dating someone it's because they're interesting and not just a generic warm body. There are things that make someone incompatible as a partner (like changing their mind about wanting kids) which doesn't make them incompatible as a friend. So losing someone as both a lover and a friend can be a negative.
Also, I suspect some people may look to past lovers for potential flings, which is kindof fraught but not totally irrational if things ended on a positive note.
The bait and switch on kids is kind of messed up when it is "I want kids" suddenly becomes, "nope, never wanted them".
On the other hand, when some women hit a certain age, even if they never wanted a child prior, that biological clock kicks in, and they suddenly have a strong desire for them. It's very weird.
In one case, the woman I was dating had a progressive illness (EDS.) She went from "I'm on the fence" to "I will not have the physical resources to deal with kids" as her life and illness unfolded.
The other instance was a college sweetie. Said she didn't want kids but also took meds specifically to preserve her fertility in the face of PCOS in case she changed her mind. I figured if she was uncertain I'd take my chances. She eventually landed on 'didn't want kids.' I was fairly warned. C'est la vie.
The first person, I'm still in occasional contact with. The second, I am not.
This is true, and very much the 'older' perspective. The changing ones mind about wanting a child is an excellent example. Losing lover and friend is a double whammy.
Well, I can't tell you why people care about their partner's exes; that doesn't happen to me. (If anything I tend to like them rather than hate them.)
But as far as being hurt by not being thought about, I understand that. For me, it would be because of the emotional bond. Relationships or even past friendships, something persists after the end, and something feels transcendent about it. I do think that vacation example is apt; the memories are emotionally encoded. I DO think of and reminisce about fun vacations I've had. Vacations are inanimate though so I don't expect they feel the same way about me. ;)
With a relationship, the expectation is that the emotional involvement, good and bad, went both ways. (I mean, if that other person is a NT, and they DO truly forget about you abruptly, it really does mean you didn't matter. You were deceived.)
Obviously with a psychopath the situation is different. I think I would feel less hurt since I have a cognitive understanding of that. It doesn't mean the same thing as it does with a NT. It would still be rough though. My emotions couldn't just turn off suddenly just because I need to move on and all that. My life goes on for sure, but it takes time.
Jesus wept. There was a LONG time when I could have had no conception of this. I hope I would be more informed and do better now. But the potential for agony, oh god.....
Finding out that I was psychopathic didn't change anything in my life. It gave me some insight to how I was wired, but other than that it wasn't life-changing.
Hi. I don't know if I'm a psychopath but I can really relate to your writings and it felt like you are reading my mind or something. I also have a big problem with relationships cause I can't make them last and if I can it actually gets messy. Can I ask an advice what I can do to end relationships without making it worse? I really appreciate if you can reply. Thank you.
That's a tough call because I have never bothered trying to influence the end of a relationship. In my mind, I accommodated that other person while we were in a relationship. The relationship is ended, and my investment is over. Whatever they have to deal with emotionally is a 'them' problem. I have no interest in entertaining their emotional lives any longer.
Jealousy is an oxytocin based emotion, and psychopaths have a mutated oxytocin receptor which does not allow oxytocin to bind. Emotions related to oxytocin are not experienced.
I have experienced "It's Over" and believe me saying it can be bewildering is putting it quite mildly. There are many, many other words that would be more appropriate; such as, sucked the life out of me. However, recovery finally came about and though I missed a lot of years, life has returned.
This description of "It's Over" is completely and totally true. This is what I learned, but only learned after I my psychopathic partner left and many years later am only now beginning to understand as much as one can. What Athena writes here is spot on. We were together more than 20 years; I did not realize until, by chance and coincidently 6 years after we were apart that he was psychopathic. It took me a while to digest my discovery, but now after years and having read every post of Athena's I could find, have come to terms with psychopathy; understanding the total lack of emotion from him was the most difficult thing I have ever gone through. My story is a bit like ETLs.
Yes, I hope that for them as well. But, hope it does not take them as long as it did me. THANK YOU FOR THE TIME YOU GIVE IN WRITING ABOUT YOU AND PSYCHOPATHY!
What was wrote is exactly play by play how it happens, I already know how long I'm going to be with a woman before I even speak to them, usually it's because they benefit me in some way or they intrigued me sexually because of their high femininity.
I have zero feelings for anyone on a romantic level, I have never been in love before or even felt love for that matter my whole life, I may have had a few people I was fond of at the time because of their genuine consistency and a matter of if they are tolerable to me, and that goes for people who I am not involved with and that rarely MIGHT go into my brains file cabinet. With me it's like a day to day basis, if you don't keep in touch with me I literally won't think about you, I could care less about "human companionship", someone else's feelings annoy me because I don't want to be bothered with that crap, I prefer solitude, however; I like sex when I'm in the mood for it I will seek out a vagina or I have an objective with someone for my own personal gain, either way it's chess on my part, nothing more and nothing less, it's just how I am.
Absolutely, to others my way may sounds heartless and cold, however; if you think about it logically it is the same exact actions as everyone else except the absence of the dramatics, tears, emotional manipulation, coddling to control the other person, walking on eggshells as to not emotionally trigger them.
In my summation 98.99% of all relationships fail, the reason why both male and females have high body counts in my opinion is the Covert practice of parasitic symbiotic relationships, and when i see divorce and the dynamics of it in action I think to myself "and I'm the one with psychopathy?".
I think as human beings we are not meant to be stuck with one person our whole life time (some people are), I think the social constructs and taboos in multi dynamics are put in place to control the imprinted and programmed "Workers" in this idiocracy called society both with operant conditioning and classical conditioning.
With that said, I think someone is better off being in a relationship with someone with psychopathy if they are aware that person has it, speaking for myself when I choose a relationship that fits, they will get loyalty almost to a fault, respect ( I don't take disrespect and I don't give disrespect), a calm demeanor, logic and understanding, consideration in the observation of the dynamics of social constructs in a relationship, protection by any means possible by someone who will go to war on your behalf.
To me, these are your benefits, once that non verbal contract is up, so are your benefits, dont call me, you may apply to your next non verbal contract or float around being a Temp.
He said, "I know you are sad. I know you are angry. I can't help you with that. Just go home. Just leave." He wasn't being nasty, vitriolic, or plain mean. I remember that feeling where it seems my mind is focused intensely on his lack of passion, care, or concern but my stomach, my heart, my lungs were melting. And I hated him for that. How could he have this ability to split my beingness into parts simply speaking words. It had been two months since we broke up because he got his best gal pal from home pregnant over winter break. I found out because the woman called me and told me. She also wanted me to know some things about Bradley. He was very different. She loved and hated him. He cared about himself only. Etc. Etc. Etc
Athena, due to that relationship I have gone on to study psychology. We were in college at Oberlin in Ohio. Freshmen year. It was awful. It has always shocked people when I tell them that I wasn't actually angry with him. He never pretended he was anything but what he was. I found some of his qualities so calm, so soothing, and he was fucking beautiful. Get this: we met playing LaCrosse. How Abercrombie and Bitch is that?!?! Lordy.
What I can't understand fully is if he was aware of his adaptation or just other way of experiencing relationships, did he not tell me because he thought I would run away? But he wanted what he wanted? Here is the thing: I knew he was very different. He liked few things but I liked those things. Maybe he was invested for a time for those reasons? The split was quick. I blamed it on his carelessness but I knew it had nothing to do with his best friend at home. Yes, it fucked me up but not because of him, per se. The realization that I projected and colored him in with my desires and that when I would see clearly, it would split my being. Hard to explain. I can feel that surgical compartmentalizing once in a while. My therapists have all said I am the kind of person psychopaths would find interesting. I give folk all the space they need. Turns out I don't have to react like a normal NT. Lol. He told me once, "You are a beautiful person. You fascinate me." It would make me feel a bit like Gizmo or ET when he said that. Thanks, Athena. Something cool just happened for me. You rock.
He likely knew that he was different, but it is unlikely that he knew exactly how. It isn't something that is easy to figure out. You are immediately confronted by a litany of articles that describe psychopathy in a way that no one can relate to.
I am not a pyschopath, as I can have bouts of extreme sadness during loss, but then on the flipside I am generally very calm and void of most emotions. I have been yelled at, hit, and I can withstand it without a single reaction. To me, its absurd. I do not understand why anyone would act like that. Ever.
I do feel anxious, but never jealous.
And I require moments of cuddling or "bonding", but its actually for entertainment and stems from boredom with said person.
I.e. Id never call someone to cuddle!! But if Im living with them, Ill hop on their lap and talk to them. Otherwise Im bored with them.
I do not feel lonely, ever. I consider myself an extroverted recluse.
And I do not feel love, except for a fleeting feeling of excitement or heavenly moments. I have to actively try to relate to others versus only investing in them. This is a big one lately I am working on. But whenever I notice they connect with me, I actively dissaciate from them. Also a big thing Im working on. Unsure what that is? Fearful of having to maintain that mode?
I invest everything the person I date could ever want or need, and then wonder why they play games. I never bat an eye at what they do and just watch them.
I also hardly care if they cheat and never once have cheated. As you wrote, it doesnt even cross my mind as necessary.
It doesnt bother me if they cheat, though, because "most people cheat and thats normal". I think because I am not emotionally invested, but perhaps there is an emotional disconnect?
Even the inability to remember faces or entire people or events is frequent with me.
I enjoy my solitude so much that you have to be very special for me to allow you into my home or make time for you. This has always been the case since I was a child. And I discarded people like that. Able to do things like, put them in jail if they betrayed me severely enough and not shed a single tear or concern. Not even think about them ever again if I choose. Sometimes I wonder if Im not a hybrid of some sort!!!
Like what is this person that gives someone their whole heart but is able to snatch it back in an instant?
Who can relate and emphasize then just detach?
Its odd. For sure. Haha.
You might be one of the people that would qualify as a borderline psychopath. When I say borderline, I am referring to having several psychopathic traits, but not all of them, which likely is caused by having some of the structure change, and some of the different chemical processing in the brain.
I wonder if you have even been addicted to anything, even something like cigarettes, or even caffeine, or if you have been prescribed medication for something only to have it not work for you at all the way it is meant to?
I smoked marijuana in HS and even my dad told me I looked sober when I brought all my friends over high. The first time I smoked an entire bowl and felt exactly the same. Not giggly, hungry. It was like I had taken nothing.
I did it just for the act.I never had any effects like hunger or sleepiness. It was somehow an escape.
I would occasionally get excited or extremely paranoid if it was a bad strain. The withdrawals were definitely there, though. Bad.
I also took LSD in HS. I would be completely "in control". People would be yelling, naked, running, hurting themselves/others. I would literally just stand there like "hey, no need to yell. Hey, put your clothes on. Hey, if you do that you will get injured, cant you see that?" It was a total bore. I felt like a babysitter. I only did it 3x before it just seemed like a waste of time and money.
I also took pain killers (as you can see, I went crazy in HS) which I got extremely addicted too. Like. Hiding them, lying, spending all my money on them, alseep for 16 hours level.
My most common symptom is blacking out. I have blacked out on LSD - once immediately after taking at 10pm, so I woke up to standing over ciggarettes at 8 in the morning continuing a thought I had.
I blackout on certain liquors, so I avoid those now. And they make me actually murderous. I am not kidding. Its so weird. So I just do not do that. Ever.
Cigarettes do nothing. The first time I smoked an entire pack, 2 weeks into smoking, and felt no different. Again. Waste of time and money.
But I am completely sober. I dont smoke. Its been 10 years of sobriety. Because it just doesnt do anything for me and the withdrawals are not worth it. I love being in control and I do not want to risk that.
As for coffee, its hit or miss. Normally I dont feel a damn thing but if its a particularly strong brew, I get energized and excited.
It is really interesting how the effects are so varied. Your responses to a lot of things mirror mine, such as pot having no effect at all.
I haven't tried LSD, but when I drink I am like you describe on it. Very with it, and watching other people lose their minds. I think that they want to lose their minds. It seems to be like an escape so they don't just surrender to it, they chase it. I think it is so they can feel free from their inhibitions. For me, even after a great deal of drinking, it just screws up my motor controls and speech. I remember everything, and can still function.
You certainly have some interesting aspects to how your brain responds to things.
This reminds me the absinthe effect. Absinthe (the real stuff) can make people feel far more sober than they are, and function well, but meanwhile you can ingest enough to poison yourself and boy, will you pay later!
Interesting
I think a lot of people do it to numb their pain or distract themselves from reality; but for me, I cannot ever escape reality (actually, I'd much rather be IN reality). I can naturally numb my pain, even physical, so it really is a total waste!
Yes, I agree that is the motivation for many.
So for you it is like you don’t get pleasure from alcohol/some drugs, but do get hangover, right?
Yes. Withdrawals/hungover. I also took Ectasy, and didn't feel those "lovey-dovey" feelings whatsoever and didn't engage in sex when everyone around me seemed to want it. I merely petted someone's hair and complimented them on how beautiful they were. It is very easy for me to quit an addiction or habit of any kind because I can just "not care" and move on.
I can and it's not odd at all.
However, I don't care to get close to people.
I do not either. I do enjoy a toxic man in my life. I have no friends, but I have had relationships for years. That is my kryptonite. I am currently working on that now.
Am curious; would you please describe how you perceive/define a "toxic man?" For instance, what qualities make him seem toxic to you.
Additionally, why does such a person appeal to you?
Thank you,
ES
I want to preface all of this with I am a very committed partner. I know who I am and what I can do, but I choose to be loyal and dedicated to only one partner. I will work very hard to do everything I can to make them happy, and with die trying to make the relationship actually work.
I learned only recently what toxic traits are in men and women. I suppose toxic is a buzzword now, but for example, I never knew belittling your partner verbally was abusive. Now I know. I also recently learned about the pattern of mine I'm about to describe, so if this is jumbled, it's because I haven't figured it out yet myself and am learning.
I enjoy the emotionally unavailable/addict/lost/cheater type of men. A liar. A player, if you will. A man that is hooked to his vices, struggles with sobriety, who is unable or unwilling to really dedicate to being successful, and who will work very hard to convince me of his false reality while I just nod along and think to myself, "oh boy, I know it already and I don't even need a shred of evidence".
If he comes home absolutely shit faced after cheating on me all night, that is extremely attractive to me. He is so unstable. I just want to pet him and fawn over him and feed him and care for him.
I get the most excited with the facade of a committed relationship just to have sex. Where a man presents himself as wanting a committed relationship, but actually has many women in rotation and cheats.
He typically also likes women like me, who are smaller and more innocent looking, whereas he is very strong and has a "killer instinct" about him.
Oh boy, I will lose my rockers if he discards and picks me back up. That just drives me nuts with desire. You thought you could leave and resist but you're back in my bed. It just turns me on to another level.
It appeals to me because they also typically will work very hard for me, and God this sounds terrible, but I love seeing how they work so hard for me to "fall for them" when I cannot ever love them in the fullest sense and can just easily drop them. Like, yeah, I may get my emotions turned on and feel for them, but I can just switch it off and move on.
And these interactions are because THEY started it with ME. I did not ask for it. I will stare directly in their eyes, unemotional, and state very matter of fact: "I won't love you" or "I don't want to date you" or "this is only temporary".
I will blow them off. Ignore them. Ghost them. Not even show up for the date. They persist, they are relentless. And this turns me on a lot.
But they chase me. There are so many men like this, too. It's wild. So. Many.
And, I won't even think about them again. They think they can/do just ruin me and I'm like, head over heels or something because I can put in an equal or even greater effort, but their absence brings so much peace and deep down I know the only reason I was ever with them was for sex.
Which by the way, I stop needing after about 6 months and am "bored". Reading Athena's posts made me realize why this is clearer, though again, I am capable of deep emotion so I don't think I am a pyschopath. I think I have just learned very well how to handle my impulses and emotions.
But yeah, if they don't do the chase, I don't ever get turned on again. Period. Like if they aren't trying for me, I'll try for them to get them back on me, but if they don't reciprocate, it's like. Whatever. I'll just never have sex then and do everything else in our relationship we need to get done.
And what Athena wrote, about the exchange/transaction.
10000000%. I date you because you provide something I cannot get myself or need, which if you can't already tell is #1 Sex and #2 Protection. That's it. That is all I need from a man.
Does that make sense?
It is kind of like I enjoy the predator-prey scenario, but I am acting the part of prey when in reality I know exactly what is going on. I feed into the game until I'm done. Because if they know I know, they run.
This is so detailed and I'm sorry about that. Hope it answers some questions, though.
I appreciate your in-depth description very much. I've been a Dominatrix for a quite a while; seems you are as well in certain ways. By this I mean being in control of the relationship/situation. The Predator/Prey aspect is popular in BDSM, though I've never engaged in it and don't care to.
It's known as a form of "power exchange."
My next question is: Have you ever felt protected?
ES
My last partner I chose purely for sex and percieved protection.
I am very physically small and was getting hit on a lot in the workplace, which I dont find flattering at all but annoying.
I told him I only wanted to date him to get the dogs off, as a bodyguard, and for sex. He agreed.
I am always in a sort of survival mode, Ive learned, so no, I dont think I have felt protected even with a guy like him (6'3, killer type guy with no remorse, beard, weapons always on him and loaded).
I dont feel perfectly safe with my German Shepherds.
Or my AR15.
But as you can see, I surround myself with protective resources - even if its purely perception.
As for Dominatrix, my family has always joked since I was a kid that I was one. But I do not like pain inflicted on myself or others, thought doesnt cross my mind, so not exactly sure the coorelation.
Thanks very much for elaborating. I need some time to consider my response.
There are many facets involved.
I would say most normal people can? What you describe is not unusual.
I tell myself that maybe the people Ive come across are just overly emotional, unstable, and impulsive. And Im just. Not. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe Im just not around normal people!
I didn’t mean to say that the absolute majority of people are like you, but plenty are. I can name you a handful of people I know who are like that from what I know. It can be true. It also depends on the country where you live. Cultural differences are real.
A red flag for me is that I can experience harm, physically or emotionally, as well as witness it, and be unaffected entirely. I find that to be different. Even the most stable people I know, would feel pangs of anger, sadness, leave even (I can/could stay). Especially with the cheating - I can't think of a one who would be totally okay with their partner browsing porn, paying for an Only Fans account, and going out for sexual exploits and NOT panic, rage, leave. Etc. I do find this "different".
If all of us were the same, most of us would be unnecessary.
If it is addressed to me, the first two sentences I can somewhat relate to. I will be angry if I am harmed physically, but witnessing it won’t affect me emotionally I think. I am also fine with my partner watching porn, I don’t know what sexual exploits mean but I think that I cannot relate to lol. I mean, it can be different and though I don’t want to devalue your experience, it still doesn’t sound that unusual.
Another important read. I’ve often forgotten ex-peoples’ names. Romantic or platonic. Once someone is not in my life anymore, and I learned the lesson, I don’t see a point in devoting precious memory space to them. I have cried after a breakup, but looking back, it was a definitely a performance; expected for their benefit. So I delivered. I can remember my tears immediately drying up and feeling immensely calm while driving away and never looking back.
(People who go back to their exes over and over genuinely mystify me.)
Many people tell themselves little lies so they can sleep at night. They have to, because lacking answers is uncomfortable.
Also, this line: “My preferred state is one of solitude. If someone comes along and improves upon that state I will make adjustments to accommodate them in my life. If they leave, I return to my preferred state.”
I have said some form of this to myself for years, but whenever I shared it out loud, people around me would say, “oh, you’ll change your mind someday when you find the right person”. Unsure if that’s true. I really do strongly prefer and thoroughly enjoy being alone.
It's so interesting how often people will try to convince you that you aren't how you know that you are. I heard this a great deal when people found out I wasn't interested in having children. I was often told how I would change my mind, how I will hear the call of the biological clock... my knowledge that I didn't want children never changed, however.
If your newsletter has helped me realize anything, it’s just how carefully I’ve hidden the parts of myself that don’t seem to function in the same way as others’ do.
I have never understood why people
are so heartbroken by the fact that they will not be thought about after the break up. If I end a relationship with someone or they do with me it is for a reason, so I will forget about them and I expect that they will forget about me. I am okay with that. My life goes on and so does theirs.
Similarly I cannot comprehend why some people care so much about their partner’s exes and hate them just because they are their exes. Like why do you care? You literally have never even met these people.
In this regard I would prefer someone with attitude like yours as a partner.
I think it is because they then feel like they don't matter despite the fact that they obviously did matter to the other person as long as the relationship lasted. It seems to somehow make them feel less than. It's only a guess though really. Observations that I have made over the years, but not having any clue what that is like emotionally, I may be way off the mark.
That you mattered for a time doesn't cancel out the hurt of not mattering anymore. You might not necessarily feel less than, but mattering has been such a thing in your life that its sudden removal can feel like withdrawals.
Why does it matter to you if you matter to them at all?
Like during a relationship I get it, it makes sense and as Athena said, they did matter during a relationship, but afterwards isn’t it normal that they don’t anymore? Why does it hurt you?
I don’t think mattering exists as a thing. You cannot really feel like you matter and if you can somehow what is the value of it?
I wish I could give a better answer, but it just does matter. Not forever, or even necessarily for very long, depending on the situation, but at first, the sudden shift is difficult to deal with. I am not good with sudden change, it's like turning a ship, but I get there in time.
I have never had a nasty prolonged breakup or anything like that, no stalking! I have remained close friends with one ex, accepted the loss of others and would be friendly if I ran into them. One was contemptible and I would not talk to them. It's not as though years later I still care that they no longer care about me, because by now I don't care about them either. It's just that at the time the sudden removal of that care, normal or not, was very upsetting for those relationships where I was deeply emotionally invested.
I should also say that abandonment was a huge issue for me which made things even more painful, but I did all I could to learn to experience life's normal upsets to a more normal degree. That doesn't mean I can be as pragmatic as you and Athena though!
I get it better now, thank you.
I am not deeply emotionally involved in relationships I think, I can terminate a relationship at any time and not think much about it if there is a reason, like if they cheat or betray me. I will not be happy if a relationship ends for no normal reason, or if they die, but I will deal with it as well.
I think the difference between us is that for me it will take a couple of days to stop thinking about a person occasionally, and for you it’s longer.
I have had relationships where I was not deeply involved, so I can imagine what it is like for people for whom that is the norm. Some brief sadness when it ends, or none at all. But I have also had to seek professional help for protracted grief which was destroying me (and I found that really, there is no help for these things, only time, a LONG time). So I have experienced both ways of being. Your way is better by far.
Being older, I think I have better expectations regarding relationships than I once did. But if I'm dating someone it's because they're interesting and not just a generic warm body. There are things that make someone incompatible as a partner (like changing their mind about wanting kids) which doesn't make them incompatible as a friend. So losing someone as both a lover and a friend can be a negative.
Also, I suspect some people may look to past lovers for potential flings, which is kindof fraught but not totally irrational if things ended on a positive note.
The bait and switch on kids is kind of messed up when it is "I want kids" suddenly becomes, "nope, never wanted them".
On the other hand, when some women hit a certain age, even if they never wanted a child prior, that biological clock kicks in, and they suddenly have a strong desire for them. It's very weird.
I'm really not blaming the other parties.
In one case, the woman I was dating had a progressive illness (EDS.) She went from "I'm on the fence" to "I will not have the physical resources to deal with kids" as her life and illness unfolded.
The other instance was a college sweetie. Said she didn't want kids but also took meds specifically to preserve her fertility in the face of PCOS in case she changed her mind. I figured if she was uncertain I'd take my chances. She eventually landed on 'didn't want kids.' I was fairly warned. C'est la vie.
The first person, I'm still in occasional contact with. The second, I am not.
Theoretically psychopaths could have that clock too. I think it should not be connected to the oxytocin cycle.
Did you ever write about that Athena?
This is true, and very much the 'older' perspective. The changing ones mind about wanting a child is an excellent example. Losing lover and friend is a double whammy.
Well, I can't tell you why people care about their partner's exes; that doesn't happen to me. (If anything I tend to like them rather than hate them.)
But as far as being hurt by not being thought about, I understand that. For me, it would be because of the emotional bond. Relationships or even past friendships, something persists after the end, and something feels transcendent about it. I do think that vacation example is apt; the memories are emotionally encoded. I DO think of and reminisce about fun vacations I've had. Vacations are inanimate though so I don't expect they feel the same way about me. ;)
With a relationship, the expectation is that the emotional involvement, good and bad, went both ways. (I mean, if that other person is a NT, and they DO truly forget about you abruptly, it really does mean you didn't matter. You were deceived.)
Obviously with a psychopath the situation is different. I think I would feel less hurt since I have a cognitive understanding of that. It doesn't mean the same thing as it does with a NT. It would still be rough though. My emotions couldn't just turn off suddenly just because I need to move on and all that. My life goes on for sure, but it takes time.
Hello Athena,
I'm over with Eve Swan the Dominatrix.
No remorse.
She's the past which I've no interest in.
Time to begin a new chapter.
Beginning anew always brings along lots of interesting experiences.
I've already begun. Thank you for the post and comment. The post's title concurred with my decision.
If my comment was a bit off topic, writing it put the decision into the physical.
Not a problem at all
Jesus wept. There was a LONG time when I could have had no conception of this. I hope I would be more informed and do better now. But the potential for agony, oh god.....
Can Iask another question. How was your life like before you discovered that you are a psychopath?
Finding out that I was psychopathic didn't change anything in my life. It gave me some insight to how I was wired, but other than that it wasn't life-changing.
Hi. I don't know if I'm a psychopath but I can really relate to your writings and it felt like you are reading my mind or something. I also have a big problem with relationships cause I can't make them last and if I can it actually gets messy. Can I ask an advice what I can do to end relationships without making it worse? I really appreciate if you can reply. Thank you.
That's a tough call because I have never bothered trying to influence the end of a relationship. In my mind, I accommodated that other person while we were in a relationship. The relationship is ended, and my investment is over. Whatever they have to deal with emotionally is a 'them' problem. I have no interest in entertaining their emotional lives any longer.
I can agree to that as well.
What about jealousy? Do you ever get jealous at all?
Jealousy is an oxytocin based emotion, and psychopaths have a mutated oxytocin receptor which does not allow oxytocin to bind. Emotions related to oxytocin are not experienced.
Athena I’m new here and am wondering if I may contact you privately?
You can email me at TheRealAthenaWalker@gmail.com
I have experienced "It's Over" and believe me saying it can be bewildering is putting it quite mildly. There are many, many other words that would be more appropriate; such as, sucked the life out of me. However, recovery finally came about and though I missed a lot of years, life has returned.
This description of "It's Over" is completely and totally true. This is what I learned, but only learned after I my psychopathic partner left and many years later am only now beginning to understand as much as one can. What Athena writes here is spot on. We were together more than 20 years; I did not realize until, by chance and coincidently 6 years after we were apart that he was psychopathic. It took me a while to digest my discovery, but now after years and having read every post of Athena's I could find, have come to terms with psychopathy; understanding the total lack of emotion from him was the most difficult thing I have ever gone through. My story is a bit like ETLs.
Hopefully this series will give some insight to someone that finds themselves in the same circumstances that you were and be able to get some answers.
Yes, I hope that for them as well. But, hope it does not take them as long as it did me. THANK YOU FOR THE TIME YOU GIVE IN WRITING ABOUT YOU AND PSYCHOPATHY!
You are quite welcome.
What was wrote is exactly play by play how it happens, I already know how long I'm going to be with a woman before I even speak to them, usually it's because they benefit me in some way or they intrigued me sexually because of their high femininity.
I have zero feelings for anyone on a romantic level, I have never been in love before or even felt love for that matter my whole life, I may have had a few people I was fond of at the time because of their genuine consistency and a matter of if they are tolerable to me, and that goes for people who I am not involved with and that rarely MIGHT go into my brains file cabinet. With me it's like a day to day basis, if you don't keep in touch with me I literally won't think about you, I could care less about "human companionship", someone else's feelings annoy me because I don't want to be bothered with that crap, I prefer solitude, however; I like sex when I'm in the mood for it I will seek out a vagina or I have an objective with someone for my own personal gain, either way it's chess on my part, nothing more and nothing less, it's just how I am.
Knowing exactly how you function is a good thing.
Absolutely, to others my way may sounds heartless and cold, however; if you think about it logically it is the same exact actions as everyone else except the absence of the dramatics, tears, emotional manipulation, coddling to control the other person, walking on eggshells as to not emotionally trigger them.
In my summation 98.99% of all relationships fail, the reason why both male and females have high body counts in my opinion is the Covert practice of parasitic symbiotic relationships, and when i see divorce and the dynamics of it in action I think to myself "and I'm the one with psychopathy?".
I think as human beings we are not meant to be stuck with one person our whole life time (some people are), I think the social constructs and taboos in multi dynamics are put in place to control the imprinted and programmed "Workers" in this idiocracy called society both with operant conditioning and classical conditioning.
With that said, I think someone is better off being in a relationship with someone with psychopathy if they are aware that person has it, speaking for myself when I choose a relationship that fits, they will get loyalty almost to a fault, respect ( I don't take disrespect and I don't give disrespect), a calm demeanor, logic and understanding, consideration in the observation of the dynamics of social constructs in a relationship, protection by any means possible by someone who will go to war on your behalf.
To me, these are your benefits, once that non verbal contract is up, so are your benefits, dont call me, you may apply to your next non verbal contract or float around being a Temp.
Definitely do not get involved with a psychopath then.
That has always been very weird to me.