"Fondly fornicate with a fork" will be ringing in my ears for a long time lol. But really, this is getting old, isn't it? I see that even among people who are supposed to be the 'most highly educated' among us, the blind ignorance, abject arrogance, and ingrained biases don't relinquish their cold death grips automatically. Sigh. I'm not surprised, just disappointed.
Also, I can relate to this: "It is about leveling the playing field and teaching a lesson." But opposite of you, I unfortunately do let my emotions get involved and waste my energy. I need to learn I'm not a god, it's not my business, and I need to effin' let. it. go. more often. Life is not fair, and expecting it to be leads to unnecessary suffering. (I don't know everything anyway.)
P.S. - It was nice to see the plug about autistic people. We're often misunderstood in this respect.
As an autistic person reading your accounts of psychopathy, I am increasingly struck by the number of similarities in our experiences, despite the fact that autism is effectively a polar opposite of psychopathy.
Oh good, another term that just muddies the waters. TIV describes narcissism. It’s just another term that sounds more palatable, particularly with reference to women narcissists. Society is fixated on the idea of women being nurturing and loving. To describe a female as a narcissist doesn’t go down well.
People imagine narcissists as the brash, loud mouth, attention seeking, arrogant somatic narcissist. That is just one flavour of narcissist. They don’t associate the passive aggressive victim mentality with narcissism. Male or female, it’s irrelevant, both can use passive aggressive behaviours to assert control. Both can play the victim card to assert control, both can threaten suicide to assert control and prevent the loss of a source of fuel / supply. These TIV behaviours are designed to assert control, narcissists need control because they need a source of supply / fuel to function in the world. Passive aggression is just another manipulation. All humans will manipulate to a degree, healthy humans know when they are manipulating. A narcissist manipulates repeatedly and most are unaware that they are doing so or even why they are doing it. They do it for control, fuel, residual benefits.
Narcissists seek revenge because they must have control over another person. Psychopaths to my knowledge don’t require control because they don’t really require people. If I was a psychopath I’d be pissed off with the repeated misrepresentation. Most behaviours attributed to psychopaths seem to me to be either those of a narcissist or those of an individual with ASPD, which in itself has a strong component of narcissism within it. I don’t see why academics misattribute in this way.
When it comes to empathy, I believe it’s on a spectrum. Demonstration of emotional empathy really relates to empathic range. A ‘normal’ person exhibits a high degree of emotional empathy for family, close friends, some work colleagues, a neighbour perhaps. Someone with higher emotional empathy, or a ‘empath’ just has a broader empathic range that will include strangers, someone begging on the street. An advert for a charity organisation might move them to tears. Emotional empathy, just broad range. So again, I agree normal people will exhibit emotional empathy towards one person but not another depending on empathic range and no where is this illustrated more effectively than on social media. Normal people will pile on because the person online falls outside of the range of empathy, they would never behave in that way in real life, with friends, family or colleagues.
If TIV is caused by the way a person is raised this again suggested narcissism to me. Narcissism requires a ‘Lack Of Control Environment’ to form. I honestly think that TIV refers to a specific form of narcissism rather than anything else.
The world we live in today is vastly different from that of just 20 years ago . It is my observation this change permeates even the solidest of foundational belief systems and the accompanying moral compasses attatched to each . There is a time tested measuring stick that speaks volumes to a societies condition
“Weak men create Hard times , Hard times create Strong men , strong men create Good times ….good times create weak men . …….
The cycle repeats itself …. It applies everywhere you find a breakdown or a decay in how a society interacts smoothly …..where suddenly it’s necessary to rewrite things to suit a distinct minority or cater to a manipulated new norm that is suddenly enforced furiously whereas prior it was simply ignored as the nonsense it is. Wherever accountability and transparency is sacrificed in the name of colorful new buzzwords never before given any consideration. Where the intentional obfuscation of proven fact takes priority at the cost of human suffering or the Equal application of Law regardless of cultural differences . When it becomes a matter of one’s personal safety being at risk to exercise basic freedom of speech pursuit of happiness , to protect the individual and the people thru a well regulated militia ….. when we experience infringement when it is constitutionally clear that these inalienable rights “ SHALl NOT BE infringed…..,. Make no mistake in your observations Athena …..psychopath or not …… We as a collective are experiencing what Weak men have to offer ….in time it will spur a generation of strong men that will do whatever is necessary to bring about good times , logical thought processes and the preservation of such . In the meantime buckle up the beta brigade of situation empathizers with no moral compass to point true north is in control of thought , law an censorship . On that note have a wonderful weekend.
as laughable as emotional empathy may look in a wider perspective, i got an idea it plays a big role in evolution. empathy defines who's worthy staying in our inner circle. those who are not understood are eventually hounded out.
such evaluation can be done on a cognitive basis just as well but it takes some effort, doesn't it? emotional empathy appears to be an idiot proof shortcut.
Jan 26, 2023·edited Jan 26, 2023Liked by Athena Walker
The more I journey on and learn about myself the more I seriously distrust all the hoopla about emotional empathy, and of course 🙄 this info comes from so-called professionals and/or "empaths" or NT's. So many like to point their fingers and judge my cluster b, and the victim game just becomes louder and an incessant cacophony. My theory is that they are mostly highly narcissistic people.
People who make a show out of emotional empathy imo are dangerous people. They rely on their emotional thinking in such a way that when real problems arise you really can't trust their reactions. Same can be said for those who have neither emotional or cognitive empathy, but I tend to put my faith in those with high cognition. I've been actually dealing with these same issues recently with people in my life and it's ironic how much "NT's" and narcissists truly mirror because it's so highly manipulative. I am so grateful I now have the clarity to see it. 💯💯
"likely that they do not recognize themselves in the people across from them. I imagine that it is pretty difficult to recognize yourself in people that you consider the aggressor, and yourself the victim, so of course, it doesn’t fire."
I admit that my so called hyper emotional empathy (lol) is only present in a limited number of situations. In others, I have 0 idea of what it feels like. It's a very weird phenomenon... I could be moved by certain details or stories, yet I don't recall ever feeling emotional over someone's death. It's not something I'm necessarily proud of, it's just the way my brain functions in that situation.
I am capable of theoretically "recognizing myself as the aggressor when I'm the victim". I do this when I want to have the best chance of understanding what is happening, but normally it ends up as just a horror mental trip involving toxic levels of unwarranted narcissism, will to cause damage, and evidently lack of care about it. It's always the same outcome because I never actively saught to bother anyone in the first place and I take reasonable measures of indirect effects. I believe that this is a very telling sign of your character, whether or not you're capable of seeing and want to see beyond your perspective... I do it for my personal growth, and I want my actions and thoughts to be based on the truth, not what I just want to believe. However, it was a disadvantage when I dealed with someone who's only goal was to have my leg on their dinner plate and didn't care to entertain the chance that perhaps their premises were not completely right - and thus shouldn't seek my leg. I meet many people who hold onto wrong premises and refuse to self check, it was my experience that people fear having their notions shaked, and I could tell that if it were to happen it would automatically shake them mentally too. It is "easier" to pull this under the rug and keep going, I guess it takes a certain level of mental strength...
In his book "Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion”, author Paul Bloom draws a distinction between empathy (the ability to feel other people’s pain) and compassion (desiring others’ well-being); according to Bloom, society needs less of the former and more of the latter...
Hi, first time posting here! I am enjoying your posts a lot, it make me feel less lonely knowing that other people think similar about some matters that I never felt comfortable talking about.
Agreed with Soren, it is disappointing to see stereotypes beat even the most educated. Worse even, the masses consuming these 10-point definitions without further informing themselves. It is tiring to read these definitions of anything "female" that seem inspired in Fatal Attraction.
To me, empathy has always been like the "maternal instinct", it is a unicorn that requires a level of connection that can be seen only when highly identifying with the other party. There is support, encouragement, help, loyalty, even hormones lots of things that can drive us to connect and somewhat empathize with the counterpart can do but... "putting ourselves in the shoes of the other" or "feeling for the other"? What the hell does that even mean?
Thanks for writing about TIV, sounds very interesting and will follow-up on it.
It occurs to me that lacking emotional empathy is so common as to be rather useless as a diagnostic criteria
"Fondly fornicate with a fork" will be ringing in my ears for a long time lol. But really, this is getting old, isn't it? I see that even among people who are supposed to be the 'most highly educated' among us, the blind ignorance, abject arrogance, and ingrained biases don't relinquish their cold death grips automatically. Sigh. I'm not surprised, just disappointed.
Also, I can relate to this: "It is about leveling the playing field and teaching a lesson." But opposite of you, I unfortunately do let my emotions get involved and waste my energy. I need to learn I'm not a god, it's not my business, and I need to effin' let. it. go. more often. Life is not fair, and expecting it to be leads to unnecessary suffering. (I don't know everything anyway.)
P.S. - It was nice to see the plug about autistic people. We're often misunderstood in this respect.
As an autistic person reading your accounts of psychopathy, I am increasingly struck by the number of similarities in our experiences, despite the fact that autism is effectively a polar opposite of psychopathy.
Oh good, another term that just muddies the waters. TIV describes narcissism. It’s just another term that sounds more palatable, particularly with reference to women narcissists. Society is fixated on the idea of women being nurturing and loving. To describe a female as a narcissist doesn’t go down well.
People imagine narcissists as the brash, loud mouth, attention seeking, arrogant somatic narcissist. That is just one flavour of narcissist. They don’t associate the passive aggressive victim mentality with narcissism. Male or female, it’s irrelevant, both can use passive aggressive behaviours to assert control. Both can play the victim card to assert control, both can threaten suicide to assert control and prevent the loss of a source of fuel / supply. These TIV behaviours are designed to assert control, narcissists need control because they need a source of supply / fuel to function in the world. Passive aggression is just another manipulation. All humans will manipulate to a degree, healthy humans know when they are manipulating. A narcissist manipulates repeatedly and most are unaware that they are doing so or even why they are doing it. They do it for control, fuel, residual benefits.
Narcissists seek revenge because they must have control over another person. Psychopaths to my knowledge don’t require control because they don’t really require people. If I was a psychopath I’d be pissed off with the repeated misrepresentation. Most behaviours attributed to psychopaths seem to me to be either those of a narcissist or those of an individual with ASPD, which in itself has a strong component of narcissism within it. I don’t see why academics misattribute in this way.
When it comes to empathy, I believe it’s on a spectrum. Demonstration of emotional empathy really relates to empathic range. A ‘normal’ person exhibits a high degree of emotional empathy for family, close friends, some work colleagues, a neighbour perhaps. Someone with higher emotional empathy, or a ‘empath’ just has a broader empathic range that will include strangers, someone begging on the street. An advert for a charity organisation might move them to tears. Emotional empathy, just broad range. So again, I agree normal people will exhibit emotional empathy towards one person but not another depending on empathic range and no where is this illustrated more effectively than on social media. Normal people will pile on because the person online falls outside of the range of empathy, they would never behave in that way in real life, with friends, family or colleagues.
If TIV is caused by the way a person is raised this again suggested narcissism to me. Narcissism requires a ‘Lack Of Control Environment’ to form. I honestly think that TIV refers to a specific form of narcissism rather than anything else.
The world we live in today is vastly different from that of just 20 years ago . It is my observation this change permeates even the solidest of foundational belief systems and the accompanying moral compasses attatched to each . There is a time tested measuring stick that speaks volumes to a societies condition
“Weak men create Hard times , Hard times create Strong men , strong men create Good times ….good times create weak men . …….
The cycle repeats itself …. It applies everywhere you find a breakdown or a decay in how a society interacts smoothly …..where suddenly it’s necessary to rewrite things to suit a distinct minority or cater to a manipulated new norm that is suddenly enforced furiously whereas prior it was simply ignored as the nonsense it is. Wherever accountability and transparency is sacrificed in the name of colorful new buzzwords never before given any consideration. Where the intentional obfuscation of proven fact takes priority at the cost of human suffering or the Equal application of Law regardless of cultural differences . When it becomes a matter of one’s personal safety being at risk to exercise basic freedom of speech pursuit of happiness , to protect the individual and the people thru a well regulated militia ….. when we experience infringement when it is constitutionally clear that these inalienable rights “ SHALl NOT BE infringed…..,. Make no mistake in your observations Athena …..psychopath or not …… We as a collective are experiencing what Weak men have to offer ….in time it will spur a generation of strong men that will do whatever is necessary to bring about good times , logical thought processes and the preservation of such . In the meantime buckle up the beta brigade of situation empathizers with no moral compass to point true north is in control of thought , law an censorship . On that note have a wonderful weekend.
as laughable as emotional empathy may look in a wider perspective, i got an idea it plays a big role in evolution. empathy defines who's worthy staying in our inner circle. those who are not understood are eventually hounded out.
such evaluation can be done on a cognitive basis just as well but it takes some effort, doesn't it? emotional empathy appears to be an idiot proof shortcut.
The more I journey on and learn about myself the more I seriously distrust all the hoopla about emotional empathy, and of course 🙄 this info comes from so-called professionals and/or "empaths" or NT's. So many like to point their fingers and judge my cluster b, and the victim game just becomes louder and an incessant cacophony. My theory is that they are mostly highly narcissistic people.
People who make a show out of emotional empathy imo are dangerous people. They rely on their emotional thinking in such a way that when real problems arise you really can't trust their reactions. Same can be said for those who have neither emotional or cognitive empathy, but I tend to put my faith in those with high cognition. I've been actually dealing with these same issues recently with people in my life and it's ironic how much "NT's" and narcissists truly mirror because it's so highly manipulative. I am so grateful I now have the clarity to see it. 💯💯
"likely that they do not recognize themselves in the people across from them. I imagine that it is pretty difficult to recognize yourself in people that you consider the aggressor, and yourself the victim, so of course, it doesn’t fire."
I admit that my so called hyper emotional empathy (lol) is only present in a limited number of situations. In others, I have 0 idea of what it feels like. It's a very weird phenomenon... I could be moved by certain details or stories, yet I don't recall ever feeling emotional over someone's death. It's not something I'm necessarily proud of, it's just the way my brain functions in that situation.
I am capable of theoretically "recognizing myself as the aggressor when I'm the victim". I do this when I want to have the best chance of understanding what is happening, but normally it ends up as just a horror mental trip involving toxic levels of unwarranted narcissism, will to cause damage, and evidently lack of care about it. It's always the same outcome because I never actively saught to bother anyone in the first place and I take reasonable measures of indirect effects. I believe that this is a very telling sign of your character, whether or not you're capable of seeing and want to see beyond your perspective... I do it for my personal growth, and I want my actions and thoughts to be based on the truth, not what I just want to believe. However, it was a disadvantage when I dealed with someone who's only goal was to have my leg on their dinner plate and didn't care to entertain the chance that perhaps their premises were not completely right - and thus shouldn't seek my leg. I meet many people who hold onto wrong premises and refuse to self check, it was my experience that people fear having their notions shaked, and I could tell that if it were to happen it would automatically shake them mentally too. It is "easier" to pull this under the rug and keep going, I guess it takes a certain level of mental strength...
Seems like sloppy research.
In his book "Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion”, author Paul Bloom draws a distinction between empathy (the ability to feel other people’s pain) and compassion (desiring others’ well-being); according to Bloom, society needs less of the former and more of the latter...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_Empathy
Hi, first time posting here! I am enjoying your posts a lot, it make me feel less lonely knowing that other people think similar about some matters that I never felt comfortable talking about.
Agreed with Soren, it is disappointing to see stereotypes beat even the most educated. Worse even, the masses consuming these 10-point definitions without further informing themselves. It is tiring to read these definitions of anything "female" that seem inspired in Fatal Attraction.
To me, empathy has always been like the "maternal instinct", it is a unicorn that requires a level of connection that can be seen only when highly identifying with the other party. There is support, encouragement, help, loyalty, even hormones lots of things that can drive us to connect and somewhat empathize with the counterpart can do but... "putting ourselves in the shoes of the other" or "feeling for the other"? What the hell does that even mean?
Thanks for writing about TIV, sounds very interesting and will follow-up on it.
Have a good life!
Athena,
A little off topic here. I just wanted to check my understanding please.
Psychopathy essentially refers to a specific brain structure.
ASPD refers to a psychopathic brain structure combined with an unstable / abusive childhood environment and or disinterested / abusive parenting.
Is it possible to be diagnosed as having ASPD without having the psychopathic brain structure?