I love this article. My 6 year old son has been read 101 stories by the brothers Grimm. He loves them and we refer to them often. Moral lessons, fables, and fairy tales were also a way to grapple with the harshness of life. In our modern age the harshness isn’t in the forefront as much. The fact that the US has such a high missing children number makes me wonder if we are too pampered and children are like domestic pets, unaware of the dangers our in the world and therefore untrained to survive them.
I wonder that as well. I think there are a lot of people that would prefer to not have their children see any of the ills of the world, but in doing so, they remove their ability to discern potential dangers. They are creating artificial psychopaths. Children that do not know when they should be afraid.
That’s an intriguing idea, artificial psychopaths. I agree, fearlessness isn’t always an asset. Although, the story of the boy who wanted to learn how to shudder seems to tell the opposite! Not all of Grimm’s fairy tales are morality tales- some just seem to be an outlet for the frustration of life, a way of pointing out that life isn’t always fair, sometimes stupid people are unfairly lucky, and so on. And of course some are outright racist.
I do struggle with affective empathy more often than not and I naturally don't have the inclination to put others first instead of myself. Therapy has been helping me a lot with the cognitive empathy development. What angers me is that, people assume that I am selfish or evil just for the sake of being like this, when in reality it's not. It's just my brain/behavior default. I won't do bad on purpose for no reason at all. Hurting others is quite off my radar.
I know what you mean. People assume that their default is the default, and anyone who deviates is in the wrong, instead of seeing it as a different way of being.
A little off topic here. You have said previously that psychopathic children don’t respond well to punishment. Instead, it is better to re direct their attention to something else.
Is it correct to assume that these children don’t respond to punishment because they don’t fear being punished as a neurotypical child would?
As an example, if a psychopathic child knew that each time they failed to complete a homework task they would be beaten, they wouldn’t feel anxious or fearful about being beaten. Similarly though, they know that being beaten is an unpleasant experience and there is a historical consistency that they are indeed beaten when they don’t complete their homework. Would the child do the homework to avoid the unpleasantness of the beating but without fearing the beating itself?
I actually don’t feel comfortable even writing ‘psychopathic child’. It doesn’t sit well with me at all, but in the interests of clarity and the question itself I elected to use that terminology.
Which leads me to another uncomfortable question. In terms of punishment is it the case that corporal punishment would be the only effective form of punishment for a psychopathic child ?
It isn't just fear. There is n motivation to please others. There is no shame, no remorse, and no care what other people think. All of these don't exist, and without them, there is nothing a punishment can accomplish.
Physical punishment doesn't have any effect either. It is simply a nuisance. We have high pain tolerances, and the emotional effect of physical punishment also doesn't exist. Physical punishment just gives rise to an antisocial psychopath.
Ah, that fits in terms of the antisocial psychopath result. Or rather, it fits the scenario I was looking into.
Whist still considering the high pain threshold, would the avoidance of pain not fall under ‘self preservation’ therefore occasioning some form of compliance on that basis?
Ok, thank you, that makes sense. I was looking at it from the opposite direction. I assumed that the self focus of the psychopath in terms of wants, might also stretch to ‘don’t wants’. “ I don’t want to be beaten therefore I will do the homework task.” That’s not to say that the behaviour changes and the child then would do the homework each night without complaint due to threat of being beaten. Rather, that each night when the threat of homework or beating eventually presents itself, self preservation would result in the choice of homework being made.
If there is no self preservation in play, it sounds like the ‘choice’ would look more like apathy.
"This post is part of my learning of cognitive empathy. Other parts came from the people around me. I can explore those as well, if you guys are interested."
You write: " I can explore those as well, if you guys are interested. Let me know."
Yes, I am very interested.
You "I am certain that this is not only true of psychopaths, but of many types of people.."
Yes, it appears to be true of me in dozens of ways.
For example, my dog gets a walk every day for at least 1/2 hour. But it is not for the dog at all. He is my excuse, my enablement, to walk around the neighborhood at all hours.
Times I don't particularly feel like walking him, I remind myself, it is for me.
The thing I have noticed with Grimms is that the morality of those fables is not at all like the modern "forgiveness without contrition at all costs" - absolutely any thing possible to enable abusers, mentality of modern day cliches and other useless things. Put in by our governments that covet the position of abuser.
I liked 'the blue light' which basically says 'revenge is a completely legitimate aim'.
The entire thing in my view is a very careful attempt to transmit values from one generation to the other. Men made these fables most likely, (notably in Snow White: 'Every gift you receive you will somehow pay for, so don't be letting guys buy too much stuff for you') and women read them to the children. I follow on youtube a woman that goes through them and there is a whole host of facial expressions and things that she uses that make her seem suited for that purpose in a way that communicates to kids. For instance, when one of the characters is angry she looks angry, when she gets to an interesting part of the story she tells you she is excited etc.
The bit at the end about kidnapping is yes, a truly dark part of our society. There is no way you can cut it where hundreds of thousands, millions even, of kids going missing every year is not an incredibly bad thing. Assuming this is strictly for sexual reasons, it does not speak well of how much of society is not just amoral, but anti moral, evil.
I think Snow White deals more with the notion of stepparents have a higher propensity to be dangerous to a child. There is a reason the "evil stepmother" is a trope in these stories.
Maybe, I don't know. I mean, Grimms also has like, magical beings that change form in almost every story as well, so I don't think saying certain things are metaphor are a stretch.
I haven't got to Snow White yet, I'm going through the videos and I like them a great deal. (The golden apple, The travelling Musicians, Hans in Luck). I'll reflect more on Snow White when I get there.
Why assume that though? And while I am asking you, please don’t feel singled out. It is the natural assumption, but it is the incorrect one. As someone else has already pointed out, 99% of the children in those statistics end up back at home (the other person said “safely back at home”, but I am very specifically not saying that). They haven’t been abducted by the spectre of the murderous child molesting stranger that for some reason (that I leave to the reader to ponder on) we have all been groomed by media and PSAs to fear, because in a very large part they do not exist, or at least they make up a vanishingly small quantity of the missing child statistics, which include any child that is reported as missing by caregivers for any reason.
The point I’m trying to make is the one that it seems none of us truly want to grapple with: child abuse of all forms is enacted by those the child already knows, ergo those we already know, often those we hold close, often those we love. The media (and government) has us metaphorically out chasing ghosts while our children are traumatised at home(s) and at school and in church.
Dude is expecting us to take on an entire belief system in relation to this issue due to this one post then?
It reminds me vaguely of when the "journalist that debunked pizzagate" was arrested for "violating" children. There are people that don't like the idea that children are being abducted for political reasons. Like, the Democrats would never leave the borders open so that the children that went over them could be trafficked... That's just something the soft, squishy, lovely Democrats would never do.
Many people are totally unwilling or able to accept the sorts of terrible things there are in this world. The next one I am going to write on is about something that is done to the elderly that is all perfectly legal, but abhorrent.
I also started reading pretty early (at 5) and read the Grimm's fairy tales in original. Loved them. I never considered the lessons I may have gleaned from them but your analysis makes a lot of sense. After all, this was the main purpose of those tales: to teach children some basic survival and life skills.
Tbf, this is an Aha moment for me, you've always said you don't invest in people, and I was sceptical expecting you to divulge the short comings of poor old snow white, however in true psychopathic style, you missed her whole intentions completely, either through the lack of understanding in emotional context, or if you don't trust them, why believe them in the first place. And if you never trust, it's a fruitless game
I love this article. My 6 year old son has been read 101 stories by the brothers Grimm. He loves them and we refer to them often. Moral lessons, fables, and fairy tales were also a way to grapple with the harshness of life. In our modern age the harshness isn’t in the forefront as much. The fact that the US has such a high missing children number makes me wonder if we are too pampered and children are like domestic pets, unaware of the dangers our in the world and therefore untrained to survive them.
I wonder that as well. I think there are a lot of people that would prefer to not have their children see any of the ills of the world, but in doing so, they remove their ability to discern potential dangers. They are creating artificial psychopaths. Children that do not know when they should be afraid.
That’s an intriguing idea, artificial psychopaths. I agree, fearlessness isn’t always an asset. Although, the story of the boy who wanted to learn how to shudder seems to tell the opposite! Not all of Grimm’s fairy tales are morality tales- some just seem to be an outlet for the frustration of life, a way of pointing out that life isn’t always fair, sometimes stupid people are unfairly lucky, and so on. And of course some are outright racist.
Thank you for the great laugh!! "...children are like domestic pets..." Yes, they are.
I do struggle with affective empathy more often than not and I naturally don't have the inclination to put others first instead of myself. Therapy has been helping me a lot with the cognitive empathy development. What angers me is that, people assume that I am selfish or evil just for the sake of being like this, when in reality it's not. It's just my brain/behavior default. I won't do bad on purpose for no reason at all. Hurting others is quite off my radar.
I know what you mean. People assume that their default is the default, and anyone who deviates is in the wrong, instead of seeing it as a different way of being.
Yeah, exactly
A little off topic here. You have said previously that psychopathic children don’t respond well to punishment. Instead, it is better to re direct their attention to something else.
Is it correct to assume that these children don’t respond to punishment because they don’t fear being punished as a neurotypical child would?
As an example, if a psychopathic child knew that each time they failed to complete a homework task they would be beaten, they wouldn’t feel anxious or fearful about being beaten. Similarly though, they know that being beaten is an unpleasant experience and there is a historical consistency that they are indeed beaten when they don’t complete their homework. Would the child do the homework to avoid the unpleasantness of the beating but without fearing the beating itself?
I actually don’t feel comfortable even writing ‘psychopathic child’. It doesn’t sit well with me at all, but in the interests of clarity and the question itself I elected to use that terminology.
Which leads me to another uncomfortable question. In terms of punishment is it the case that corporal punishment would be the only effective form of punishment for a psychopathic child ?
It isn't just fear. There is n motivation to please others. There is no shame, no remorse, and no care what other people think. All of these don't exist, and without them, there is nothing a punishment can accomplish.
Physical punishment doesn't have any effect either. It is simply a nuisance. We have high pain tolerances, and the emotional effect of physical punishment also doesn't exist. Physical punishment just gives rise to an antisocial psychopath.
Ah, that fits in terms of the antisocial psychopath result. Or rather, it fits the scenario I was looking into.
Whist still considering the high pain threshold, would the avoidance of pain not fall under ‘self preservation’ therefore occasioning some form of compliance on that basis?
Not likely. By that reason, a psychopath wouldn't do some of the things that place our lives in danger because of an impulse.
Ok, thank you, that makes sense. I was looking at it from the opposite direction. I assumed that the self focus of the psychopath in terms of wants, might also stretch to ‘don’t wants’. “ I don’t want to be beaten therefore I will do the homework task.” That’s not to say that the behaviour changes and the child then would do the homework each night without complaint due to threat of being beaten. Rather, that each night when the threat of homework or beating eventually presents itself, self preservation would result in the choice of homework being made.
If there is no self preservation in play, it sounds like the ‘choice’ would look more like apathy.
Very interesting and also very sad. Thank you.
Love the post. I would like to add that, most (around 99%) of the missing children, safely return home.
Thank you for that. I wondered about that part.
"This post is part of my learning of cognitive empathy. Other parts came from the people around me. I can explore those as well, if you guys are interested."
I am interested. I'm sure others are as well.
Excellent, I wrote the follow-up post. It can be found here:
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/the-gate-to-the-outside-world
I have found the parables and stories in the Bible to be a lot like these stories you referenced to. Great stories
Yes, I agree about biblical stories and parables
Mother Hulda is a fun read! Thanks.
You write: " I can explore those as well, if you guys are interested. Let me know."
Yes, I am very interested.
You "I am certain that this is not only true of psychopaths, but of many types of people.."
Yes, it appears to be true of me in dozens of ways.
For example, my dog gets a walk every day for at least 1/2 hour. But it is not for the dog at all. He is my excuse, my enablement, to walk around the neighborhood at all hours.
Times I don't particularly feel like walking him, I remind myself, it is for me.
Best wishes. Looking forward to more.
Thank you, Tim
Novels?
All forms
I mean published books.
If I have them, I wouldn't say. I don't cross my fiction with Substack or Quora
Too bad. I would like to read some. Let us know if you change your mind, and which Barnes & Noble you plan on signing your romance novels at.
BTW, have you considered writing fiction yourself?
I do write fiction
I mean novels or short stories
I figured that you did
Scary stats about the missing children. Almost half a million in the US alone. There are some truly, incomprehensively awful people in the world.
So very true
The thing I have noticed with Grimms is that the morality of those fables is not at all like the modern "forgiveness without contrition at all costs" - absolutely any thing possible to enable abusers, mentality of modern day cliches and other useless things. Put in by our governments that covet the position of abuser.
I liked 'the blue light' which basically says 'revenge is a completely legitimate aim'.
The entire thing in my view is a very careful attempt to transmit values from one generation to the other. Men made these fables most likely, (notably in Snow White: 'Every gift you receive you will somehow pay for, so don't be letting guys buy too much stuff for you') and women read them to the children. I follow on youtube a woman that goes through them and there is a whole host of facial expressions and things that she uses that make her seem suited for that purpose in a way that communicates to kids. For instance, when one of the characters is angry she looks angry, when she gets to an interesting part of the story she tells you she is excited etc.
The bit at the end about kidnapping is yes, a truly dark part of our society. There is no way you can cut it where hundreds of thousands, millions even, of kids going missing every year is not an incredibly bad thing. Assuming this is strictly for sexual reasons, it does not speak well of how much of society is not just amoral, but anti moral, evil.
I think Snow White deals more with the notion of stepparents have a higher propensity to be dangerous to a child. There is a reason the "evil stepmother" is a trope in these stories.
Maybe, I don't know. I mean, Grimms also has like, magical beings that change form in almost every story as well, so I don't think saying certain things are metaphor are a stretch.
I haven't got to Snow White yet, I'm going through the videos and I like them a great deal. (The golden apple, The travelling Musicians, Hans in Luck). I'll reflect more on Snow White when I get there.
Why assume that though? And while I am asking you, please don’t feel singled out. It is the natural assumption, but it is the incorrect one. As someone else has already pointed out, 99% of the children in those statistics end up back at home (the other person said “safely back at home”, but I am very specifically not saying that). They haven’t been abducted by the spectre of the murderous child molesting stranger that for some reason (that I leave to the reader to ponder on) we have all been groomed by media and PSAs to fear, because in a very large part they do not exist, or at least they make up a vanishingly small quantity of the missing child statistics, which include any child that is reported as missing by caregivers for any reason.
The point I’m trying to make is the one that it seems none of us truly want to grapple with: child abuse of all forms is enacted by those the child already knows, ergo those we already know, often those we hold close, often those we love. The media (and government) has us metaphorically out chasing ghosts while our children are traumatised at home(s) and at school and in church.
Do you have a source on that interpretation of the missing child statistics? I would like to follow up on that.
Yes, as would I. I looked for it, but wasn't able to find it
Dude is expecting us to take on an entire belief system in relation to this issue due to this one post then?
It reminds me vaguely of when the "journalist that debunked pizzagate" was arrested for "violating" children. There are people that don't like the idea that children are being abducted for political reasons. Like, the Democrats would never leave the borders open so that the children that went over them could be trafficked... That's just something the soft, squishy, lovely Democrats would never do.
Many people are totally unwilling or able to accept the sorts of terrible things there are in this world. The next one I am going to write on is about something that is done to the elderly that is all perfectly legal, but abhorrent.
Why assume what?
I also started reading pretty early (at 5) and read the Grimm's fairy tales in original. Loved them. I never considered the lessons I may have gleaned from them but your analysis makes a lot of sense. After all, this was the main purpose of those tales: to teach children some basic survival and life skills.
Exactly
Great article. Nice to know someone else read Grimm's. That should be mandatory reading.
Indeed I agree
Tbf, this is an Aha moment for me, you've always said you don't invest in people, and I was sceptical expecting you to divulge the short comings of poor old snow white, however in true psychopathic style, you missed her whole intentions completely, either through the lack of understanding in emotional context, or if you don't trust them, why believe them in the first place. And if you never trust, it's a fruitless game
What do you see Snow White's intentions to be?
She wants the dream. The rest is as you told it.
Beauty and the beast would work better. But if anyone else calls you the beast I'll kill em.
A+