My parents believed that I have anger issues. What they have seen is those occasions when I didn't have my mask up. I was never angry at all when I was being told to "just calm down" and I'd tell them that they were just being annoying and it wasn't addressing whatever imaginary issue that they believed had come up.
I am serious about that imaginary issue thing, neurotypicals seem to get very emotional about things that are totally irrelevant to someone like myself
I know what you mean. Mask off comes across as aggressive to many neurotypicals when in reality it's just cold bluntness. All willingness to cajole a person in a conversation has vanished, and it is just, "All right, what is it going to take for you to f*ck right off? I'm busy".
Speaking from my interpretation of his words? Stark bluntness without any padding. Because so much time and effort is made to make NTs comfortable, when it disappears, likely it is interpreted by many to be intentionally mean when in reality it is just all the parts we add for the neurotypical comfort is gone, and they don't know how to deal with it.
When I am cold, it is cold in general most often, but that doesn't keep most people from taking it personally.
Yes I can see how it would look that way, either like the coldness of some types of anger or like a scary suppressed fury. But when I think of 'anger issues' I think of the sort of anger that is acted out rather than simmering, with shouting, extreme facial expressions, throwing things and so on. Maybe just a matter of definitions. Parents can be quick to apply any old theory or term when they are at their wits end.
People assume that lack of positive emotions means that there are negative emotions there in their place. That's not the case with psychopaths, but that doesn't change the belief.
I kindof refer to it as the "Grumpy Grandpa" like when you go see your grandpa and he's all grumbling and you can tell his body's hurting, and he's just kindof a jerk... But its not personal. He's not mad at you, but he's not nice either. Or as my son tells his friends about me, "she's the nicest b*!ch you'll ever meet." That's how I inturpreted it. Thats based on my experiences tho and might not come across the way I mean it. I deeply loved my grandpa. We were his little sobs... Yes he cussed us like dogs. But no one else did when he was around. He cared in his own way but he showed it in his own way, and usually called you a name or two. My personal favorite, "rained on turd" im glad that wasnt me lol. That to me is more mask off. Would that be close?
No, not at all. You described someone that, while their emotion is not directed at you, it is still an angry emotional person. That would be very far from psychopathy.
As I said above, people assume that lack of positive emotions means that there are negative emotions there in their place. That's not the case with psychopaths, but that doesn't change the belief.
It sort of goes this way. If I am not nice to someone, they believe that lack of kindness means that I'm being mean. I'm not, I'm just not playacting to create their emotional experience that allows them to be comfortable
Thank you for clarity on this. That is the natural assumption I had always had, a lack of positive must mean full of negative. I am a black and white thinker unless I consciously pause. The world is very colorful and beautiful. I really appreciate your insights and time spent trying to help people understand.
Cursing and being a jerk goes beyond grumpiness from his own pain. I don't think I would have appreciated this conduct from someone, nor had any affection for them at the time.
My grandpa's both came from a different time, they both meant well. It just didn't always sound like it. Especially to an outsider. We never thought much of it. When I asked my Grandmother why one didn't say, I love you, she told me to them it meant weakness to admit such feelings. So an I love you wasn't said as "I love you", but it was known by their actions. It's kindof common here still for men to have to be Manly Men.
What would society be like if psychopathy, instead of neurotypicality was the norm? I understand that we wouldn't have a lot of problems we have now, like racism , bigotry and what not. But could there be newer problems?
If anything, I think that would be a great premise for a movie. Perhaps the film ' Equilibrium ' was the one that came closest to depicting a society like that .
Nope, not even a little. That movie was about authoritarians that didn't want there to be fun in the world. Psychopaths like fun. We would be the art thieves.
If you were able to relax--but not completely remove--your mask, which aspects of it would you want to take off first? Not asking for details about your specific relationship here (because the answer would be tailored to your specific SO) but rather a generic, theoretical one. In other words, what parts of the mask are the most effort to maintain?
Having to direct my attention to someone else. I am perfectly capable of listening to a person while I am listening to something else, playing a game, writing, reading, but that doesn't matter when it comes to personal interactions with most NTs. They feel like I am not paying attention to them. I would prefer that to be the first thing to drop.
It isn't that this is the most difficult to maintain aspect, it is just that I find it's requirement to be irrational.
You may be skilled in being able to listen while writing or reading but that is not universal and generally means that someone's attention will be partial at best.
Athena, there are of course things that I am still trying to get my head around with your experience. You mention times when you are 'not pleased' with something. You have also spoken about losing you animals and how that was, if I remember correctly, the most 'not pleasant' thing you have ever had to do. Perhaps you think it is obvious what 'not pleased' means for you, the extent of your preferences, but it isn't really, I'd like to know more. As you have so few negative feelings, this is something I am trying to understand. You have physical pain (diminished), boredom (righto), and 'not pleased'/don't prefer. And that's about it. I am wanting to understand just how not pleasing not pleased is. It is not enough to cause you any actual suffering. OK, I am looking for parallels. I imagine some fantasy person with a condition that makes them utterly indifferent to everything, good or bad. But that is not psychopathy, you habe preferences. It may happen with some sort of brain injury, I don't know. And yet neurotypical suffering isn't there either. So I am thinking, is your 'not pleased' the equivalent of a neurotypical ending up with their second choice of dessert, which will barely register as a negative? Somehow I don't think so. It must be more or you wouldn't seek out a particular kind of life. Or maybe that's it exactly, I dont know. I would be extremely interested if at some time you were to address the extent and the character and flavour of such negative experiences as you have. Failed plans, unwilling detention, 'disappointments', whatever has happened to you that you would rather hadn't, however mildly you may feel that. Perhaps it is an impossible task to explain such subjective experience. But if it is possible for you to try, I would be very interested.
This is false. An emotionless android would not perceive human emotion toward itself as manipulation because it would not have the capacity to feel manipulated and therefore could not interpret the experience of indirect emotional exchange or expression as manipulation. It is perceived as manipulation by you because the emotions are inconvenient and are not valued. I’m not suggesting NT’s don’t manipulate — but this exists on a spectrum of emotional maturity. To view all human interaction as manipulation is a deeply antisocial interpretation, not a factual or even rational one.
Feeling manipulated or not has nothing to do with manipulation.
Manipulation is getting your wants and needs met by others, and your tuned behavior that exists entirely for those wants and needs to be met, which is literally all human interaction.
Neurotypicals do not like to think their interactions are manipulative, but that is simply their unwillingness to see past their beliefs about what manipulation is. They believe "manipulation" is inherently negative. It isn't. That is a limitation in their perception of self, not a redefinition of what manipulation is. Just because the benefits are largely mutual in the world does not make the interactions any less manipulative.
As a psychopath, those emotional manipulative interactions are pointless. They are totally ineffective. That doesn't change my ability to observe those interactions between others, and of course when those interactions are attempted on me. They are pure manipulation, regardless of people's preference of accepting that fact.
I'm autistic and I also have no time for the emotional manipulation that nt's and even some others (like my ex with ADD) employ, just tell me what your damn problem is so we can move forward.
Also, the touching thing, why with all the touching? Personally, if I'm busy, touching me is just going to piss me off. Otherwise, 90% of the time I'd rather not be touched. Unless I'm seeking or giving affection or comfort or showing/receptive to sexual interest, I don't want to be touched and I won't think to touch somone else either unless it's one of those situations.
I can also get the, just because I do it for you doesn't mean I want it thing. My ex with ADD wanted to touch all the time and he could never get that not only did I not like being touched, but that it was unpleasant for me unless I wanted and expected (aka had time to prepare myself for) touch. It's like you want me to touch you, sure fine, but stop touching me back, I don't like it!
One of the most frustrating things for me is the excessive apologies NT’s produce. “Sorry...” seems more something to convey a temporary feeling moreso than a promise to modify behavior. Handed out like candy. Absolutely unnecessary 90% of the time and when it is necessary, it’s an empty promise.
I have a friend like that. There are deep seated reasons. Even now decades on when she is an amazeballs professional person, it's still there. It's best not overthought or even pointed out, just treat it like a verbal tic. Which in a way it is.
That'd be great. My thinking was that just because an experience is at a low level of intensity, and even if it carries no emotional weight and is not filed in the memory as significant, it is still possible for their to be detail there if looked for, especially given the range of negative situations one can be in.
it would take an extreme trespass for me to be bothered. Most often it would be me removing them from my life. If they really did something truly awful, however, I might be more inclined to make that a problem for them.
My parents believed that I have anger issues. What they have seen is those occasions when I didn't have my mask up. I was never angry at all when I was being told to "just calm down" and I'd tell them that they were just being annoying and it wasn't addressing whatever imaginary issue that they believed had come up.
I am serious about that imaginary issue thing, neurotypicals seem to get very emotional about things that are totally irrelevant to someone like myself
I know what you mean. Mask off comes across as aggressive to many neurotypicals when in reality it's just cold bluntness. All willingness to cajole a person in a conversation has vanished, and it is just, "All right, what is it going to take for you to f*ck right off? I'm busy".
What were the features of you mask-off that you think they interpreted as anger?
It's not imaginary or irrelevant, to us it's as real and compelling as hunger, thirst and air.
Speaking from my interpretation of his words? Stark bluntness without any padding. Because so much time and effort is made to make NTs comfortable, when it disappears, likely it is interpreted by many to be intentionally mean when in reality it is just all the parts we add for the neurotypical comfort is gone, and they don't know how to deal with it.
When I am cold, it is cold in general most often, but that doesn't keep most people from taking it personally.
Yes I can see how it would look that way, either like the coldness of some types of anger or like a scary suppressed fury. But when I think of 'anger issues' I think of the sort of anger that is acted out rather than simmering, with shouting, extreme facial expressions, throwing things and so on. Maybe just a matter of definitions. Parents can be quick to apply any old theory or term when they are at their wits end.
People assume that lack of positive emotions means that there are negative emotions there in their place. That's not the case with psychopaths, but that doesn't change the belief.
With time, patience and understanding, it could be got used to, as your people have done.
Indeed
I kindof refer to it as the "Grumpy Grandpa" like when you go see your grandpa and he's all grumbling and you can tell his body's hurting, and he's just kindof a jerk... But its not personal. He's not mad at you, but he's not nice either. Or as my son tells his friends about me, "she's the nicest b*!ch you'll ever meet." That's how I inturpreted it. Thats based on my experiences tho and might not come across the way I mean it. I deeply loved my grandpa. We were his little sobs... Yes he cussed us like dogs. But no one else did when he was around. He cared in his own way but he showed it in his own way, and usually called you a name or two. My personal favorite, "rained on turd" im glad that wasnt me lol. That to me is more mask off. Would that be close?
No, not at all. You described someone that, while their emotion is not directed at you, it is still an angry emotional person. That would be very far from psychopathy.
As I said above, people assume that lack of positive emotions means that there are negative emotions there in their place. That's not the case with psychopaths, but that doesn't change the belief.
It sort of goes this way. If I am not nice to someone, they believe that lack of kindness means that I'm being mean. I'm not, I'm just not playacting to create their emotional experience that allows them to be comfortable
Thank you for clarity on this. That is the natural assumption I had always had, a lack of positive must mean full of negative. I am a black and white thinker unless I consciously pause. The world is very colorful and beautiful. I really appreciate your insights and time spent trying to help people understand.
Cursing and being a jerk goes beyond grumpiness from his own pain. I don't think I would have appreciated this conduct from someone, nor had any affection for them at the time.
My grandpa's both came from a different time, they both meant well. It just didn't always sound like it. Especially to an outsider. We never thought much of it. When I asked my Grandmother why one didn't say, I love you, she told me to them it meant weakness to admit such feelings. So an I love you wasn't said as "I love you", but it was known by their actions. It's kindof common here still for men to have to be Manly Men.
What would society be like if psychopathy, instead of neurotypicality was the norm? I understand that we wouldn't have a lot of problems we have now, like racism , bigotry and what not. But could there be newer problems?
I imagine that there will be different issues, yes. I will think about it and perhaps be able to write in a post.
That would be excellent.
If anything, I think that would be a great premise for a movie. Perhaps the film ' Equilibrium ' was the one that came closest to depicting a society like that .
Nope, not even a little. That movie was about authoritarians that didn't want there to be fun in the world. Psychopaths like fun. We would be the art thieves.
That's even more interesting! I will look forward to your post on it.
I will work on it
If you were able to relax--but not completely remove--your mask, which aspects of it would you want to take off first? Not asking for details about your specific relationship here (because the answer would be tailored to your specific SO) but rather a generic, theoretical one. In other words, what parts of the mask are the most effort to maintain?
Having to direct my attention to someone else. I am perfectly capable of listening to a person while I am listening to something else, playing a game, writing, reading, but that doesn't matter when it comes to personal interactions with most NTs. They feel like I am not paying attention to them. I would prefer that to be the first thing to drop.
It isn't that this is the most difficult to maintain aspect, it is just that I find it's requirement to be irrational.
You may be skilled in being able to listen while writing or reading but that is not universal and generally means that someone's attention will be partial at best.
Yes, that's true.
Athena, there are of course things that I am still trying to get my head around with your experience. You mention times when you are 'not pleased' with something. You have also spoken about losing you animals and how that was, if I remember correctly, the most 'not pleasant' thing you have ever had to do. Perhaps you think it is obvious what 'not pleased' means for you, the extent of your preferences, but it isn't really, I'd like to know more. As you have so few negative feelings, this is something I am trying to understand. You have physical pain (diminished), boredom (righto), and 'not pleased'/don't prefer. And that's about it. I am wanting to understand just how not pleasing not pleased is. It is not enough to cause you any actual suffering. OK, I am looking for parallels. I imagine some fantasy person with a condition that makes them utterly indifferent to everything, good or bad. But that is not psychopathy, you habe preferences. It may happen with some sort of brain injury, I don't know. And yet neurotypical suffering isn't there either. So I am thinking, is your 'not pleased' the equivalent of a neurotypical ending up with their second choice of dessert, which will barely register as a negative? Somehow I don't think so. It must be more or you wouldn't seek out a particular kind of life. Or maybe that's it exactly, I dont know. I would be extremely interested if at some time you were to address the extent and the character and flavour of such negative experiences as you have. Failed plans, unwilling detention, 'disappointments', whatever has happened to you that you would rather hadn't, however mildly you may feel that. Perhaps it is an impossible task to explain such subjective experience. But if it is possible for you to try, I would be very interested.
It's mildly inconvenient to me.
“Every human interaction is manipulation.”
This is false. An emotionless android would not perceive human emotion toward itself as manipulation because it would not have the capacity to feel manipulated and therefore could not interpret the experience of indirect emotional exchange or expression as manipulation. It is perceived as manipulation by you because the emotions are inconvenient and are not valued. I’m not suggesting NT’s don’t manipulate — but this exists on a spectrum of emotional maturity. To view all human interaction as manipulation is a deeply antisocial interpretation, not a factual or even rational one.
Feeling manipulated or not has nothing to do with manipulation.
Manipulation is getting your wants and needs met by others, and your tuned behavior that exists entirely for those wants and needs to be met, which is literally all human interaction.
Neurotypicals do not like to think their interactions are manipulative, but that is simply their unwillingness to see past their beliefs about what manipulation is. They believe "manipulation" is inherently negative. It isn't. That is a limitation in their perception of self, not a redefinition of what manipulation is. Just because the benefits are largely mutual in the world does not make the interactions any less manipulative.
As a psychopath, those emotional manipulative interactions are pointless. They are totally ineffective. That doesn't change my ability to observe those interactions between others, and of course when those interactions are attempted on me. They are pure manipulation, regardless of people's preference of accepting that fact.
This post is "right on target" . . . again, you have nailed it Athena!
Thank you, N B
I'm autistic and I also have no time for the emotional manipulation that nt's and even some others (like my ex with ADD) employ, just tell me what your damn problem is so we can move forward.
Also, the touching thing, why with all the touching? Personally, if I'm busy, touching me is just going to piss me off. Otherwise, 90% of the time I'd rather not be touched. Unless I'm seeking or giving affection or comfort or showing/receptive to sexual interest, I don't want to be touched and I won't think to touch somone else either unless it's one of those situations.
I can also get the, just because I do it for you doesn't mean I want it thing. My ex with ADD wanted to touch all the time and he could never get that not only did I not like being touched, but that it was unpleasant for me unless I wanted and expected (aka had time to prepare myself for) touch. It's like you want me to touch you, sure fine, but stop touching me back, I don't like it!
One of the most frustrating things for me is the excessive apologies NT’s produce. “Sorry...” seems more something to convey a temporary feeling moreso than a promise to modify behavior. Handed out like candy. Absolutely unnecessary 90% of the time and when it is necessary, it’s an empty promise.
Yes, I agree. Once it has been said, and meant, continuing to apologize is unnecessary. Whatever that was is over, so... let's move on.
I have a friend like that. There are deep seated reasons. Even now decades on when she is an amazeballs professional person, it's still there. It's best not overthought or even pointed out, just treat it like a verbal tic. Which in a way it is.
And here's me imagining a whole post's worth of subjective description. Oh well, if that's all there is to it, so be it!
I'll do my best to flesh it out in better detail in a post.
That'd be great. My thinking was that just because an experience is at a low level of intensity, and even if it carries no emotional weight and is not filed in the memory as significant, it is still possible for their to be detail there if looked for, especially given the range of negative situations one can be in.
Emotional manipulation has been the bane of my existence. One gets real tired after thousands of rounds of it.
Exactly
it would take an extreme trespass for me to be bothered. Most often it would be me removing them from my life. If they really did something truly awful, however, I might be more inclined to make that a problem for them.
Can you give examples of what would count as a serious trespass?
What would your response entail, for instance a form of violence?
Do you think most people would agree the type of retaliation you give is morally justified?