" Instead of seeing each interaction as a negotiation, you see it as an essay on the other person’s regard for you." This is the good stuff. Looking forward to part 2.
I have been labeled as being manipulative - always with a negative connotation - most of my life. I have struggled to understand why I am regarded in a negative way, but have learned to just accept that many (mostly family) have an inability or unwillingness to comprehend that my raw (and I guess brutal) honesty is not laced with hidden meaning. I am usually very forthcoming and always direct when I want something from somebody. I struggle with being told no without an explanation as this was the norm for me growing up. I am good with logic and factual reasoning, not illogical emotional responses or power struggles. I incorporate strategy and presentation when approaching a person I want something from but always direct and offer a reasonable trade. If I want something bad enough I will counter their rejection - just as you, my approach is a direct negotiation. I view every interaction with people as a lesson or opportunity. I was very shutoff from my emotions for the majority of my life as they were annoying and got in the way of me moving forward. I did not like how sadness felt and saw in others how it could manifest into something ugly and debilitating so I consciously avoided or redirected from it. That was until I became pregnant with my daughter. Holy cow was that an emotional roller coaster I could not control. It was strange to move from one state to another (laughing one minute to crying the next because I felt bad for something or somebody’s struggle - ick!) I have regained my composure, but that empathy has not left me since (11 yrs now) and has rooted deeper. It is an interesting endeavor these days to debate logic and emotion in my head and has slowed my interest in my use of people on many levels. We all use people in one way or the other. Every interaction is a learning experience. The people around you should benefit you in some way and you should benefit them just as much. Apparently (according to some of my family members - who have benefitted greatly from me) my approach is unacceptable. I just laugh and sometimes test my theory that they view me as a threat or powerful or something that needs to be defeated and will covertly manipulate a situation with them to benefit me. It works every time and is something they are comfortable with. It is so incredibly odd to me, but eye opening.
People like to believe that their interaction in the world is not based in manipulation, when in fact it is. They frame manipulation in a bad way, when in reality it is just interacting with another person to get your needs addressed, and their needs as well.
People are comfortable with their version of it, but not a more straightforward one. They feel that if the negotiation is straightforward, it makes them have some level of understanding that their way is manipulation as well, and they don't like that. You didn't follow social norms, and that isn't welcome.
Manipulation in the negative sense(to my way of thinking anyways) means using someone else’s efforts to further ones own interest, without the person who’s being manipulated receiving any benefit whatsoever,or something so trivial to the manipulator as to be unnoticeable.
The positive sense would mean both parties involved would benefit from whatever activities are involved. Maybe a lot of the animosity some feel when they think they’ve been “manipulated” is wounded pride when they realize they should have thought of,or acted upon ,such actions as they were steered into doing.?
Yes, that does appear to be a part of it. Another is that they believe themselves to be completely innocent of manipulation, when in fact they participate in it all the time.
I’ll briefly add that this had nothing to do with self worth seeking on my part btw (though I have been guilty of that before). It’s just that we had a clash of values.
For example I stubbornly wanted my own way over something yesterday from my partner. Admittedly I did get pretty emotional (I really couldn’t help it at the time) and very heated arguing did happen which wouldn’t have helped. But even when I was calm and tried to use reason/logic it worked no better. My partners mind is very strongly made up he just doesn’t want this thing happening. I’ve had to pretty much drop the subject as otherwise all it’ll achieve is more heated arguing with no positive outcome whatsoever.
I think this is good advice for those situations where it’s necessary/there’s a genuine hope it’ll work. I am inclined to see that if the other person has firmly made up their mind they don’t want to give you what you want/they’re good at spotting manipulation attempts then there’s no point in putting the time/effort in though.
In those situations, I wonder if a more straightforward negotiation might work in your favor. Identify his currency about something and see if he is willing to trade. No manipulation, just cards on the table negotiation. Sometimes this is a helpful approach, and it can also tell you if the subject at hand is one that he particularly objects to, or if it was how you went about trying to get him on board previously that he did, or of course it could be a combination of the two.
Thank you for taking the time to respond there and include your suggestions. I think I did identify the currency. Money. The outcome I wanted had some risk of wildlife property damage. Trouble is I can't cover the possible financial cost. Once I'm earning again/in a stronger independent financial position things might be different. Till then though, no more I can do. I will definitely bear this approach in mind for using for other situations though.
I think you’re totally confused between ‘manipulation’ and ‘influence’. The former is negative because of the deceitful intent and behaviour that is selfish in order to meet one’s needs. The latter is positive because of the honest intent and behaviour that is transparent while considering the needs of all.
No, I'm not. It is manipulation that drives human interaction. Just because people do not like that, or because they have convinced themselves that it is a negative thing, doesn't change the reality.
Every single person alive manipulates everyone that they know to get their wants and needs met. It isn't "influence" it is manipulation. I find it so funny how much neurotypicals bristle when I tell them that. They don't like it because they don't like knowing that they are very manipulative. It is their nature. Where do you think we learn it from? Certainly not from other psychopaths. We learn it from you.
Influence is having someone attempt to mimic you because who you are makes them want to be like you. There is something there that they adopt because they see value in it. That is influence. Quite different from manipulation, and not at all how neurotypicals interact.
Wow thankyou I was told of this neg on the table, but he didn't explain like that he explained so only he won, lol I heard of table an what I putting on it lol sneak 🤣 got love him
I feel like I know something about manipulation. I was married young to a woman with a high IQ could never get on a even keel.I later after a divorce and tested in my 50's found to be autistic +dd which explained a lot.
Except ”Manipulation” does not mean being forthright about desires and having a logical, non-emotional conversation about them. It literally means “the act of manipulating someone in a clever or unscrupulous” way. By being frank, you are, in fact, engaging in behavior that is NOT manipulative, unless you’re doing so to unnecessarily blunt or candid for the express purpose of unsettling someone and eroding their confidence.
Just because you’re being frank doesn’t mean you’re being forthright, and my guess is that you are smart enough to know the difference. You can have the goal of skipping a trip to the grocery store to get home in time for a show as “would you mind if we ran home first, I’d really like to catch Succession.” Or you could say “I would like to go watch my show, and you should be okay with skipping a trip to store because you could stand to lose a few pounds.” Now, are both things true? Maybe. Is the second part necessary, or said with the express purpose of undermining the person’s confidence?
That isn't manipulation, that is what's called a "black truth". Something said with the express purpose of causing harm, even though it is the truth, it is said with malice.
Manipulation is getting your wants and needs met. Nothing more. Trying to put a negative spin on it just causes cognitive dissonance. People want things, and to get those things, emotional or otherwise, they manipulate one another.
I was using the Oxford definition of the word. But merriam Webster defines manipulate (as it refers to interactions, and not physical dexterity) as “change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose,” or “to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage.”
I think we are essentially in agreement on the bigger point, and I agree that people conflate manipulative with transactional. I am a very transactional as a person, which has sometimes caused friends to wonder if I’m invested in long-term relationships because I’m not the person you go to get brunch and gab about boys. My longest lasting, truest relationships have always sprung from a transactional arrangement: bartenders and baristas I see every day, people who own my favorite shops, my employers or employees. While that might sound weird, I find the limited social parameters of these initial exchanges—where the exchange is a concrete fact, instead of a nebulous swirl of abstract concepts and personal emotions—along with the consistent frequency of interaction frees both parties to develop healthy and stable attachments to each other.
I’ve remained very close to former employers/employees, am dating a coworker from several years ago, and have the owner of my favorite label in my top contacts due to our frequent texting. I frequently get sent products from her inventory that aren’t even available to the public, and have written glowing reviews of her genuinely awesome labels, because I was a fan before we even met. I’ve read the script of my favorite Starbucks employee and gave notes, and ended up with a year of free lattes.
Some people call it manipulative, but that is incorrect, since I am never deceitful or hiding the ball, and both parties walk away knowing exactly what the terms and conditions of our relationship is. It’s transactional, and I think if more people conceived of interactions with this goal in mind, they’d have a lot less social anxiety.
Manipulation in my experience has always been a transactional process. If I feel that someone believes their presence in my life requires me to cater to their every need, they quickly become past tense. Whether on a personal level or even the media trying to tug on heart strings,blatant attempts at stirring my emotions to whatever direction someone desires is one of the few things that angers me. If I like someone I’ll let them know by my actions,if I don’t I’ll let them know by my inaction,if I even bother.
Very informative as always!!! Both examples you provided are on point! The examples made me remember some of my own experiences. I'm quite and anxious person and during a long time had a very low self-esteem (working on it with my psychologist), so I would have disproportionate emotional reactions to objectively small matters (what you've said, "placed too much on the table").
I really liked the last paragraph ("Stop negotiating with your emotions. Negotiate with your logic. What do you seek at that moment, and what is the most direct route to obtain it without causing undue suffering"). Your posts have helped me understand more my emotions and the motivations behind them. Your posts feel like a mirror, and that has helped me become a more confident person. Because the more I understand myself, the more I trust and like myself.
I always find your answers very helpful. I'm eagerly waiting for the next part! Thank you very much for sharing so much knowledge!
I will get it written probably tomorrow. I am working on figuring out a publication schedule so people will know when to expect something in their email. If you have any suggestions, let me know.
Hi! I think it would depend on the amount you want to write each week. If you are going to write sporadically, just post it whenever you want and announce it on Quora. If you are going to post 1/week, just choose a day and stick to it (for example, every friday...). If it's 2times/week, just choose 2 different days with a few days in betweens (for example tuesday + friday, or wednesday+sunday)
Also, you will write *much* faster if you plan a list of articles in advance, then put together an outline for each article, then use the outline topics as sub-headings and then just flesh it out.
I sort of have ideas for what to write, but don't tend to do outlines. It doesn't work with my writing style. I write what comes to mind as I write it.
Would you consider looking at possible headlines and outlines - you know, just for sport?
Have you written any piece yet about the whole concept of figuring out the currency of a person - specifically the how to's?
How does one approach an absolute stranger in gauging their favored currencies? I'd really enjoy reading such an article written from the psychopathic mindset.
Being manipulated is being drawn into an interaction that is transactional in nature, unbeknownst to you. This affords the manipulator an unfair advantage.
That is literally what every single human alive does to one another. Neurotypicals just don't see it because they are used to it. It doesn't change the fact that is exactly what they are doing. Being blind to it, doesn't make it not so.
True, but it's a matter of degree. It's not black and white. Manipulation thrives in the courtship arena as that is all about camouflage, masking, putting your 'best self' forward. Also, obviously, in sales.
Agree that we neurotypicals tend to demonize what we reject in ourselves--self interest, manipulation, callousness. We are well defended against the realization that our behavior doesn't always align with our values.
Most of us, pushed to be honest, would admit we have engaged in manipulation, but that it isn't a key component of our social dynamic. But white lies--going along to get along--all the time! But that's just a function of social smoothing to effect a comfortable environment for self and others.
I disagree completely. It is always happening with every single interaction. Manipulation is not a negative or positive. It's simply life and human nature.
I guess it depends on how you define manipulation. If you mean that with every interaction a person is seeking to get their needs met - for communication, out of interest, to learn...then I agree with you. But look at the Websters definition below. I think that most people using the word, rely on the concept below.
transitive verb
"To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or another body part or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner: synonym: handle.To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously.To tamper with or falsify for personal gain."
I find your substack very interesting. You're performing a valuable service. There is a lot of misleading info out there.
There is another definition that I saw about it that used the term "to manipulate" to define manipulation. It seems to me that if you use the word to define the word, you haven't defined anything. I think that specific choice was interesting and also convoluted.
Then it's going to suck for him when you guys get to court. Only your lawyer should be communicating with him, and if he doesn't cooperate, that will not look well on him to the judge.
" Instead of seeing each interaction as a negotiation, you see it as an essay on the other person’s regard for you." This is the good stuff. Looking forward to part 2.
Part two;
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/tip-the-scales-in-your-favor
I have been labeled as being manipulative - always with a negative connotation - most of my life. I have struggled to understand why I am regarded in a negative way, but have learned to just accept that many (mostly family) have an inability or unwillingness to comprehend that my raw (and I guess brutal) honesty is not laced with hidden meaning. I am usually very forthcoming and always direct when I want something from somebody. I struggle with being told no without an explanation as this was the norm for me growing up. I am good with logic and factual reasoning, not illogical emotional responses or power struggles. I incorporate strategy and presentation when approaching a person I want something from but always direct and offer a reasonable trade. If I want something bad enough I will counter their rejection - just as you, my approach is a direct negotiation. I view every interaction with people as a lesson or opportunity. I was very shutoff from my emotions for the majority of my life as they were annoying and got in the way of me moving forward. I did not like how sadness felt and saw in others how it could manifest into something ugly and debilitating so I consciously avoided or redirected from it. That was until I became pregnant with my daughter. Holy cow was that an emotional roller coaster I could not control. It was strange to move from one state to another (laughing one minute to crying the next because I felt bad for something or somebody’s struggle - ick!) I have regained my composure, but that empathy has not left me since (11 yrs now) and has rooted deeper. It is an interesting endeavor these days to debate logic and emotion in my head and has slowed my interest in my use of people on many levels. We all use people in one way or the other. Every interaction is a learning experience. The people around you should benefit you in some way and you should benefit them just as much. Apparently (according to some of my family members - who have benefitted greatly from me) my approach is unacceptable. I just laugh and sometimes test my theory that they view me as a threat or powerful or something that needs to be defeated and will covertly manipulate a situation with them to benefit me. It works every time and is something they are comfortable with. It is so incredibly odd to me, but eye opening.
People like to believe that their interaction in the world is not based in manipulation, when in fact it is. They frame manipulation in a bad way, when in reality it is just interacting with another person to get your needs addressed, and their needs as well.
People are comfortable with their version of it, but not a more straightforward one. They feel that if the negotiation is straightforward, it makes them have some level of understanding that their way is manipulation as well, and they don't like that. You didn't follow social norms, and that isn't welcome.
Manipulation in the negative sense(to my way of thinking anyways) means using someone else’s efforts to further ones own interest, without the person who’s being manipulated receiving any benefit whatsoever,or something so trivial to the manipulator as to be unnoticeable.
The positive sense would mean both parties involved would benefit from whatever activities are involved. Maybe a lot of the animosity some feel when they think they’ve been “manipulated” is wounded pride when they realize they should have thought of,or acted upon ,such actions as they were steered into doing.?
Yes, that does appear to be a part of it. Another is that they believe themselves to be completely innocent of manipulation, when in fact they participate in it all the time.
I’ll briefly add that this had nothing to do with self worth seeking on my part btw (though I have been guilty of that before). It’s just that we had a clash of values.
For example I stubbornly wanted my own way over something yesterday from my partner. Admittedly I did get pretty emotional (I really couldn’t help it at the time) and very heated arguing did happen which wouldn’t have helped. But even when I was calm and tried to use reason/logic it worked no better. My partners mind is very strongly made up he just doesn’t want this thing happening. I’ve had to pretty much drop the subject as otherwise all it’ll achieve is more heated arguing with no positive outcome whatsoever.
I think this is good advice for those situations where it’s necessary/there’s a genuine hope it’ll work. I am inclined to see that if the other person has firmly made up their mind they don’t want to give you what you want/they’re good at spotting manipulation attempts then there’s no point in putting the time/effort in though.
In those situations, I wonder if a more straightforward negotiation might work in your favor. Identify his currency about something and see if he is willing to trade. No manipulation, just cards on the table negotiation. Sometimes this is a helpful approach, and it can also tell you if the subject at hand is one that he particularly objects to, or if it was how you went about trying to get him on board previously that he did, or of course it could be a combination of the two.
Thank you for taking the time to respond there and include your suggestions. I think I did identify the currency. Money. The outcome I wanted had some risk of wildlife property damage. Trouble is I can't cover the possible financial cost. Once I'm earning again/in a stronger independent financial position things might be different. Till then though, no more I can do. I will definitely bear this approach in mind for using for other situations though.
Understandable. Things happen in the time they are supposed to happen in, so perhaps right now is not the time.
Thanks for the information. It’s very helpful to see life from a non emotional view.
Thank you for reading, Sherryl.
I think you’re totally confused between ‘manipulation’ and ‘influence’. The former is negative because of the deceitful intent and behaviour that is selfish in order to meet one’s needs. The latter is positive because of the honest intent and behaviour that is transparent while considering the needs of all.
No, I'm not. It is manipulation that drives human interaction. Just because people do not like that, or because they have convinced themselves that it is a negative thing, doesn't change the reality.
Every single person alive manipulates everyone that they know to get their wants and needs met. It isn't "influence" it is manipulation. I find it so funny how much neurotypicals bristle when I tell them that. They don't like it because they don't like knowing that they are very manipulative. It is their nature. Where do you think we learn it from? Certainly not from other psychopaths. We learn it from you.
Influence is having someone attempt to mimic you because who you are makes them want to be like you. There is something there that they adopt because they see value in it. That is influence. Quite different from manipulation, and not at all how neurotypicals interact.
Wow thankyou I was told of this neg on the table, but he didn't explain like that he explained so only he won, lol I heard of table an what I putting on it lol sneak 🤣 got love him
I feel like I know something about manipulation. I was married young to a woman with a high IQ could never get on a even keel.I later after a divorce and tested in my 50's found to be autistic +dd which explained a lot.
Except ”Manipulation” does not mean being forthright about desires and having a logical, non-emotional conversation about them. It literally means “the act of manipulating someone in a clever or unscrupulous” way. By being frank, you are, in fact, engaging in behavior that is NOT manipulative, unless you’re doing so to unnecessarily blunt or candid for the express purpose of unsettling someone and eroding their confidence.
Just because you’re being frank doesn’t mean you’re being forthright, and my guess is that you are smart enough to know the difference. You can have the goal of skipping a trip to the grocery store to get home in time for a show as “would you mind if we ran home first, I’d really like to catch Succession.” Or you could say “I would like to go watch my show, and you should be okay with skipping a trip to store because you could stand to lose a few pounds.” Now, are both things true? Maybe. Is the second part necessary, or said with the express purpose of undermining the person’s confidence?
That isn't manipulation, that is what's called a "black truth". Something said with the express purpose of causing harm, even though it is the truth, it is said with malice.
Manipulation is getting your wants and needs met. Nothing more. Trying to put a negative spin on it just causes cognitive dissonance. People want things, and to get those things, emotional or otherwise, they manipulate one another.
I was using the Oxford definition of the word. But merriam Webster defines manipulate (as it refers to interactions, and not physical dexterity) as “change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose,” or “to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage.”
I think we are essentially in agreement on the bigger point, and I agree that people conflate manipulative with transactional. I am a very transactional as a person, which has sometimes caused friends to wonder if I’m invested in long-term relationships because I’m not the person you go to get brunch and gab about boys. My longest lasting, truest relationships have always sprung from a transactional arrangement: bartenders and baristas I see every day, people who own my favorite shops, my employers or employees. While that might sound weird, I find the limited social parameters of these initial exchanges—where the exchange is a concrete fact, instead of a nebulous swirl of abstract concepts and personal emotions—along with the consistent frequency of interaction frees both parties to develop healthy and stable attachments to each other.
I’ve remained very close to former employers/employees, am dating a coworker from several years ago, and have the owner of my favorite label in my top contacts due to our frequent texting. I frequently get sent products from her inventory that aren’t even available to the public, and have written glowing reviews of her genuinely awesome labels, because I was a fan before we even met. I’ve read the script of my favorite Starbucks employee and gave notes, and ended up with a year of free lattes.
Some people call it manipulative, but that is incorrect, since I am never deceitful or hiding the ball, and both parties walk away knowing exactly what the terms and conditions of our relationship is. It’s transactional, and I think if more people conceived of interactions with this goal in mind, they’d have a lot less social anxiety.
Yes, indeed we agree.
Manipulation in my experience has always been a transactional process. If I feel that someone believes their presence in my life requires me to cater to their every need, they quickly become past tense. Whether on a personal level or even the media trying to tug on heart strings,blatant attempts at stirring my emotions to whatever direction someone desires is one of the few things that angers me. If I like someone I’ll let them know by my actions,if I don’t I’ll let them know by my inaction,if I even bother.
I am quite similar in nature.
Very informative as always!!! Both examples you provided are on point! The examples made me remember some of my own experiences. I'm quite and anxious person and during a long time had a very low self-esteem (working on it with my psychologist), so I would have disproportionate emotional reactions to objectively small matters (what you've said, "placed too much on the table").
I really liked the last paragraph ("Stop negotiating with your emotions. Negotiate with your logic. What do you seek at that moment, and what is the most direct route to obtain it without causing undue suffering"). Your posts have helped me understand more my emotions and the motivations behind them. Your posts feel like a mirror, and that has helped me become a more confident person. Because the more I understand myself, the more I trust and like myself.
I always find your answers very helpful. I'm eagerly waiting for the next part! Thank you very much for sharing so much knowledge!
I will get it written probably tomorrow. I am working on figuring out a publication schedule so people will know when to expect something in their email. If you have any suggestions, let me know.
Hi! I think it would depend on the amount you want to write each week. If you are going to write sporadically, just post it whenever you want and announce it on Quora. If you are going to post 1/week, just choose a day and stick to it (for example, every friday...). If it's 2times/week, just choose 2 different days with a few days in betweens (for example tuesday + friday, or wednesday+sunday)
I like those suggestions. Thank you, Claudia
Also, you will write *much* faster if you plan a list of articles in advance, then put together an outline for each article, then use the outline topics as sub-headings and then just flesh it out.
I sort of have ideas for what to write, but don't tend to do outlines. It doesn't work with my writing style. I write what comes to mind as I write it.
Do you take requests from readers?
Would you consider looking at possible headlines and outlines - you know, just for sport?
Have you written any piece yet about the whole concept of figuring out the currency of a person - specifically the how to's?
How does one approach an absolute stranger in gauging their favored currencies? I'd really enjoy reading such an article written from the psychopathic mindset.
Wonderful, Athena!
Thank you for reading
Being manipulated is being drawn into an interaction that is transactional in nature, unbeknownst to you. This affords the manipulator an unfair advantage.
That is literally what every single human alive does to one another. Neurotypicals just don't see it because they are used to it. It doesn't change the fact that is exactly what they are doing. Being blind to it, doesn't make it not so.
True, but it's a matter of degree. It's not black and white. Manipulation thrives in the courtship arena as that is all about camouflage, masking, putting your 'best self' forward. Also, obviously, in sales.
Agree that we neurotypicals tend to demonize what we reject in ourselves--self interest, manipulation, callousness. We are well defended against the realization that our behavior doesn't always align with our values.
Most of us, pushed to be honest, would admit we have engaged in manipulation, but that it isn't a key component of our social dynamic. But white lies--going along to get along--all the time! But that's just a function of social smoothing to effect a comfortable environment for self and others.
I disagree completely. It is always happening with every single interaction. Manipulation is not a negative or positive. It's simply life and human nature.
I guess it depends on how you define manipulation. If you mean that with every interaction a person is seeking to get their needs met - for communication, out of interest, to learn...then I agree with you. But look at the Websters definition below. I think that most people using the word, rely on the concept below.
transitive verb
"To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or another body part or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner: synonym: handle.To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously.To tamper with or falsify for personal gain."
I find your substack very interesting. You're performing a valuable service. There is a lot of misleading info out there.
There is another definition that I saw about it that used the term "to manipulate" to define manipulation. It seems to me that if you use the word to define the word, you haven't defined anything. I think that specific choice was interesting and also convoluted.
Then it's going to suck for him when you guys get to court. Only your lawyer should be communicating with him, and if he doesn't cooperate, that will not look well on him to the judge.