If I could give this post multiple likes I would. This is important stuff explained with great clarity. I have little to say on the psychopathy aspect, because yeah, as a long term reader on Quora, it makes sense of course, and must be put out there. Over many years you have been absolutely consistent and I have no doubts about the validity of your perspective nor your intellectual honesty. And I too hope for a better future for the understanding of psycopathy and other neurodivergences.
On the religious moral thing, I can only think back to my early somewhat religious upbringing. You were meant to simultaneously do the right thing because of fear of god and ALSO because you sincerely wanted to. The sincerity mattered. Like, what does that even mean? And at death, as a sinner you could get into heaven, if you repented of your sins, but only if you were truly sincere. Umm? At death's door, can you be sure of the purity of your mindset, in the face of eternal damnation? Even as a child the mental gymnastics of this was just too much. The second guessing, the ambiguity. I later found out that people had been driven nearly mad trying to make sense of this (was it Bunyan who wrote a whole tortured book of his tortured religious mental gymnastics and fearing his every thought?). And that ordinary people who went to confession once a week felt free to do as they liked in between. So yeah, all that complicates the 'is it coming from you or is it just obedience?' And somehow you were meant to do both, simultaneously, and in exactly the right (contradictory) way. Hmmmm. And if you get it wrong, it's YOUR FAULT. Hell beckons.
Yes I still remember my first conversation about religion as a guide to morality. She was a lovely person, a Catholic, and she asked me how on earth I knew right from wrong without religion (???!!!!) and didn't I think it was obvious that religion had done much more good than harm in the world (?????????!!!!!!!!!!). And I explained my perspective. And we went on on friendly terms, because I do not enjoy agitated conversations seeking to deconvert people. But it was an eye opener onto how differently other think.
I have had many conversations like this with people, both on the side of atheists, and of course in regards to psychopathy. I have had many a religious person argue as the person did with you, and of course many people that feel empathy is the end all be all to human existence arguing the exact same thing, but empathy in place of God, and all of it said to me that they lived an unexamined life.
Have you read The Moral Fool by Moeller? He makes a very compelling argument against morality. I consider myself to be amoral and I have a limited code of conduct. This is not to show off that I'm amoral, but I do believe in a pragmatic approach to life. Actions have consequences. All you have to do is learn the law and morality isn't needed. I've been arguing in favor of amorality for some time until I realized I should portably shut up about it since I live in an overly moralistic country.
I don't know what I think about the amoral argument, I would have to read it for myself. I can see why you would want to be cautious regarding people's opinions however.
I've always felt different and one day I finally decided to find out if I really was. I knew someone that gave people the MMPI-2 test. He's not a psychiatrist. He just gives people the test and runs their answers through scoring software. i asked him to give it to me. The results were... unexpected.
when i got the results and saw what my codetype was, I looked for information about it. When I found some descriptions of it i was like, "yeah, that makes sense".
Like Scrumper99, I also hope for a better future for the understanding of psychopathy and various other neurodivergences. Not sure how likely I feel that is, sometimes!
I'm a lifelong scifi/fantasy reader, and well-designed alien psychologies and moralities/ethical systems -- with multispecies interactions -- have been in some of my favorite worlds. That was mostly from before I knew anything about autism or my own diagnosis with that pretty horribly and imo unscientifically defined condition. The issues were just clearly and deeply relevant in my life, and reading the fictional representations was really a relief at times.
I tend to group humans who follow authoritarian leaders in with some of these problematic aspects of "religions"... invisible uber-leader or human uber-leader, both have been followed into truly horrible sets of "morals" and consequential behavior. The followers suspend their own thought... and tend to portray individual thought as to be eradicated. Nice neat packages...
That makes sense. You do the best you can with the tools that you have, and when someone has mental health problems that are unregulated it makes you have to decide how you are going to interact with them, and process how they are. It might be troublesome to confront them on that behavior, and you may not get the response that you would prefer anyway, so limiting your exposure to them, and shrugging off the time that you do may well be the most expedient solution.
Good on you for cutting them some slack. I was myself in an ongoing situation where someone close had untreated mental illness and no insight into their condition. It took years and was emotionally exhausting and scary, but I felt compelled to stick it out for two reasons. One, I had had poorly treated mental illnesses and people in my life had cut me lots of slack. I feel great shame at some of my memories. Two, my own issues and recovery gave me a huge amount of helpful insights which I could usefully share with this person and it seemed wrong to waste that potential. Fortunately the investment paid off and the outcome was good. Others' mileage may differ.
scrumper99@hotmail.com4 min ago
If I could give this post multiple likes I would. This is important stuff explained with great clarity. I have little to say on the psychopathy aspect, because yeah, as a long term reader on Quora, it makes sense of course, and must be put out there. Over many years you have been absolutely consistent and I have no doubts about the validity of your perspective nor your intellectual honesty. And I too hope for a better future for the understanding of psycopathy and other neurodivergences.
On the religious moral thing, I can only think back to my early somewhat religious upbringing. You were meant to simultaneously do the right thing because of fear of god and ALSO because you sincerely wanted to. The sincerity mattered. Like, what does that even mean? And at death, as a sinner you could get into heaven, if you repented of your sins, but only if you were truly sincere. Umm? At death's door, can you be sure of the purity of your mindset, in the face of eternal damnation? Even as a child the mental gymnastics of this was just too much. The second guessing, the ambiguity. I later found out that people had been driven nearly mad trying to make sense of this (was it Bunyan who wrote a whole tortured book of his tortured religious mental gymnastics and fearing his every thought?). And that ordinary people who went to confession once a week felt free to do as they liked in between. So yeah, all that complicates the 'is it coming from you or is it just obedience?' And somehow you were meant to do both, simultaneously, and in exactly the right (contradictory) way. Hmmmm. And if you get it wrong, it's YOUR FAULT. Hell beckons.
Yes I still remember my first conversation about religion as a guide to morality. She was a lovely person, a Catholic, and she asked me how on earth I knew right from wrong without religion (???!!!!) and didn't I think it was obvious that religion had done much more good than harm in the world (?????????!!!!!!!!!!). And I explained my perspective. And we went on on friendly terms, because I do not enjoy agitated conversations seeking to deconvert people. But it was an eye opener onto how differently other think.
I have had many conversations like this with people, both on the side of atheists, and of course in regards to psychopathy. I have had many a religious person argue as the person did with you, and of course many people that feel empathy is the end all be all to human existence arguing the exact same thing, but empathy in place of God, and all of it said to me that they lived an unexamined life.
Have you read The Moral Fool by Moeller? He makes a very compelling argument against morality. I consider myself to be amoral and I have a limited code of conduct. This is not to show off that I'm amoral, but I do believe in a pragmatic approach to life. Actions have consequences. All you have to do is learn the law and morality isn't needed. I've been arguing in favor of amorality for some time until I realized I should portably shut up about it since I live in an overly moralistic country.
I haven't read it, no.
I don't know what I think about the amoral argument, I would have to read it for myself. I can see why you would want to be cautious regarding people's opinions however.
I've always felt different and one day I finally decided to find out if I really was. I knew someone that gave people the MMPI-2 test. He's not a psychiatrist. He just gives people the test and runs their answers through scoring software. i asked him to give it to me. The results were... unexpected.
Hopefully, as unexpected as they may have been, they were also useful to you.
when i got the results and saw what my codetype was, I looked for information about it. When I found some descriptions of it i was like, "yeah, that makes sense".
Thank you for another wonderful post!
Like Scrumper99, I also hope for a better future for the understanding of psychopathy and various other neurodivergences. Not sure how likely I feel that is, sometimes!
I'm a lifelong scifi/fantasy reader, and well-designed alien psychologies and moralities/ethical systems -- with multispecies interactions -- have been in some of my favorite worlds. That was mostly from before I knew anything about autism or my own diagnosis with that pretty horribly and imo unscientifically defined condition. The issues were just clearly and deeply relevant in my life, and reading the fictional representations was really a relief at times.
I tend to group humans who follow authoritarian leaders in with some of these problematic aspects of "religions"... invisible uber-leader or human uber-leader, both have been followed into truly horrible sets of "morals" and consequential behavior. The followers suspend their own thought... and tend to portray individual thought as to be eradicated. Nice neat packages...
Nice, neat, horrific packages, agreed.
Great post as always. I for one an interested in "Hare’s influence and also his bias regarding psychopathy," so I vote yet on this.
That makes sense. You do the best you can with the tools that you have, and when someone has mental health problems that are unregulated it makes you have to decide how you are going to interact with them, and process how they are. It might be troublesome to confront them on that behavior, and you may not get the response that you would prefer anyway, so limiting your exposure to them, and shrugging off the time that you do may well be the most expedient solution.
Good on you for cutting them some slack. I was myself in an ongoing situation where someone close had untreated mental illness and no insight into their condition. It took years and was emotionally exhausting and scary, but I felt compelled to stick it out for two reasons. One, I had had poorly treated mental illnesses and people in my life had cut me lots of slack. I feel great shame at some of my memories. Two, my own issues and recovery gave me a huge amount of helpful insights which I could usefully share with this person and it seemed wrong to waste that potential. Fortunately the investment paid off and the outcome was good. Others' mileage may differ.
That's awesome for you
Yep. Others may give their all for nothing. A gamble.