I think the envying thing is something I run into often. Especially class based jealousy. Like, I wish I grew up rich too, but I'm not mad because kid at school's parents bought him a new car. I'd like a new car too, but hating the kid for getting one isn't going to get me one.
Better to be friends with them and then they take to Taco Bell in their new car.
Thoughtful and in line with my personal outlook, as usual. As for the hair video...I am not one who really likes long hair on anyone (though hers IS exceptionally beautiful) but her dog is friggin adorable and reminds me of mine. I spent the whole time looking at or for the dog.
The commandments were specifically for small tribes of desert dwelling nomads ruled by chieftains, everyone knew each other, knew everything about each other.
They are rules for the tribe to survive.
Yet In a modern society where most of us are strangers, honesty is a social contract that must be earned.
As you say, do not give the benefit of the doubt at first - this has been a VERY painful lesson for me to finally learn, as I had been a magnet for Machiavellians in the past.
There is also such a thing as irrational empathy, where it’s pointless, or will only be used to exploit the empathetic.
Whenever I hear the word "morals", I immediately think about conversations I've had with various people about morals vs. ethics. Here's one article that is close to my generals sense of the difference:
" Generally it is said that ethics are societal decisions with rigour and structure. Morals are more self-determined and influenced by many influences from family, education to religion. As you can imagine there is a great cross-over between the two and each influence the other. Both ‘Ethics’ and morals differ in definition when used in different context such as within research, business, health etc. Both can differ and vary depending on situations e.g. within a culture and the country used."
There are lots of other pages talking about it... I tend to avoid thinking about "immorality", personally, and focus on "ethics". Maybe that's my own moral code? :-)
However I tend to agree with you, Athena, on most of your comments re. the 10 Commandments. I suspect that some religious leaders think they are doing the ethical thing, establishing good rules and order for society, by trying to get some of the more unruly human creatures to fear punishment by a massively powerful parental figure and not slaughter each other randomly...
People vary in their ability to reason through tit-for-tat and related "social contract" concepts too, yet I vaguely hope that they'll still have some reason to refrain from using their chainsaws on my door. But one isn't supposed to talk about those sorts of issues in conjunction with religion.
I agree and feel the same way about most of what you wrote. My question is related to a topic I've been thinking about a lot lately. Anglo Protestant morality is quite ridiculous to me. Despite its naivete, people who enforce it can cause a lot of harm, so it's definitely not harmless. I'm assuming you grew up and were diagnosed in an Anglo Protestant culture. Do you see its bias in the way psychopathy is defined? It's almost that we are expected to lie to ourselves about the reasons why we have laws and why we behave a certain way, when it's obvious that they are simply pragmatic reasons thay lead to a more pleasant existence and a productive society. So from this perspective, wouldn't a psychopath just be a person who can't be brainwashed by culture and who sees things for what they are, or at least closer to reality? Anyone who is intelligent enough and spends adequate time pondering these issues would come up to the same conclusion as a psychopath would. Maybe for psychopaths it's a natural way of thinking, whereas neuritypicals have to acquire this type of thinking through learning and effort.
Favourite answer so far; i was taught there are different types if jealousy, or envy, and that envy is the one where you wish to see their loss of that which you desire; and the other which is wanting that which another desires,
which isn't necessarily a bad thing and that praying for an increase in their blessings in regards to that object etc. is a cure for the envious-destructive side of it.
Jul 4, 2023·edited Jul 4, 2023Liked by Athena Walker
I think the envy thing is in some way about competition. If you destroy what you cannot have then the one who had it no longer stands above you. Another aspect could be that since seeing it in someone else's hands brought you pain, if it cannot be seen anymore, it hurts less. No longer reminding you, no longer reopening that wound.
Personally I am more the sort that says "but at least I get to look at it". When I am envious, it will sooner make me turn on myself for failing short of an ideal.
There is also very practical aspect to honoring parents - one wants to ba cared for in old age. And one would like their children do, what they want them to do (and maybe what they wanted for themselves, but missed out).
Except for the lying thing we'd get along just fine. I am very apposed to lying as a rule, although I can see where sometimes it's nesasary.
I guess I like the "keep it to a minimum" thing.
Also lying causes other people not to trust you so that's a minus if there are certain people you prefer to have in your life. that probably isn't a big deal to you, but. it's a good way to loose friends.
I get too why the masking thing is nesasary, and while it is a lie, technically, I don't see it as harmful. There are so many lies that are harmful to others, so those, and gossip, will make me walk away from someone as fast as I can go. My walking away is also a done deal, 99.9% of the time.
I won't get into the religious part of this post although it's a subject I have some insight into. Having read the Bible several times, plus a study Bible which really helps get to heart of things. Funny thing is Jesus said almost the same thing as you did about doing unto others, it was love your neighbor as yourself.
I think the envying thing is something I run into often. Especially class based jealousy. Like, I wish I grew up rich too, but I'm not mad because kid at school's parents bought him a new car. I'd like a new car too, but hating the kid for getting one isn't going to get me one.
Better to be friends with them and then they take to Taco Bell in their new car.
Thoughtful and in line with my personal outlook, as usual. As for the hair video...I am not one who really likes long hair on anyone (though hers IS exceptionally beautiful) but her dog is friggin adorable and reminds me of mine. I spent the whole time looking at or for the dog.
Thou shall not lie
The commandments were specifically for small tribes of desert dwelling nomads ruled by chieftains, everyone knew each other, knew everything about each other.
They are rules for the tribe to survive.
Yet In a modern society where most of us are strangers, honesty is a social contract that must be earned.
As you say, do not give the benefit of the doubt at first - this has been a VERY painful lesson for me to finally learn, as I had been a magnet for Machiavellians in the past.
There is also such a thing as irrational empathy, where it’s pointless, or will only be used to exploit the empathetic.
Ok yes, totally gorgeous hair!
Thank you for the writing!
Whenever I hear the word "morals", I immediately think about conversations I've had with various people about morals vs. ethics. Here's one article that is close to my generals sense of the difference:
https://www.oxfordcollege.ac/news/ethics-versus-morals/
" Generally it is said that ethics are societal decisions with rigour and structure. Morals are more self-determined and influenced by many influences from family, education to religion. As you can imagine there is a great cross-over between the two and each influence the other. Both ‘Ethics’ and morals differ in definition when used in different context such as within research, business, health etc. Both can differ and vary depending on situations e.g. within a culture and the country used."
There are lots of other pages talking about it... I tend to avoid thinking about "immorality", personally, and focus on "ethics". Maybe that's my own moral code? :-)
However I tend to agree with you, Athena, on most of your comments re. the 10 Commandments. I suspect that some religious leaders think they are doing the ethical thing, establishing good rules and order for society, by trying to get some of the more unruly human creatures to fear punishment by a massively powerful parental figure and not slaughter each other randomly...
People vary in their ability to reason through tit-for-tat and related "social contract" concepts too, yet I vaguely hope that they'll still have some reason to refrain from using their chainsaws on my door. But one isn't supposed to talk about those sorts of issues in conjunction with religion.
:-) Complicated planet.
I agree and feel the same way about most of what you wrote. My question is related to a topic I've been thinking about a lot lately. Anglo Protestant morality is quite ridiculous to me. Despite its naivete, people who enforce it can cause a lot of harm, so it's definitely not harmless. I'm assuming you grew up and were diagnosed in an Anglo Protestant culture. Do you see its bias in the way psychopathy is defined? It's almost that we are expected to lie to ourselves about the reasons why we have laws and why we behave a certain way, when it's obvious that they are simply pragmatic reasons thay lead to a more pleasant existence and a productive society. So from this perspective, wouldn't a psychopath just be a person who can't be brainwashed by culture and who sees things for what they are, or at least closer to reality? Anyone who is intelligent enough and spends adequate time pondering these issues would come up to the same conclusion as a psychopath would. Maybe for psychopaths it's a natural way of thinking, whereas neuritypicals have to acquire this type of thinking through learning and effort.
Favourite answer so far; i was taught there are different types if jealousy, or envy, and that envy is the one where you wish to see their loss of that which you desire; and the other which is wanting that which another desires,
which isn't necessarily a bad thing and that praying for an increase in their blessings in regards to that object etc. is a cure for the envious-destructive side of it.
I think the envy thing is in some way about competition. If you destroy what you cannot have then the one who had it no longer stands above you. Another aspect could be that since seeing it in someone else's hands brought you pain, if it cannot be seen anymore, it hurts less. No longer reminding you, no longer reopening that wound.
Personally I am more the sort that says "but at least I get to look at it". When I am envious, it will sooner make me turn on myself for failing short of an ideal.
There is also very practical aspect to honoring parents - one wants to ba cared for in old age. And one would like their children do, what they want them to do (and maybe what they wanted for themselves, but missed out).
Did you decide what your code of conduct would be all at once, or does it evolve over time?
For instance you said "I have evaluated my position on this one, and murder is not on my “never” list."
Did the evaluation happen in case it comes up in the future, or is there a story you don't want to get into?
Athena
You may find Stefan Molenexux’s Universally Preferable Behavior to be an enlightening, functional and useful frame on morality.
Except for the lying thing we'd get along just fine. I am very apposed to lying as a rule, although I can see where sometimes it's nesasary.
I guess I like the "keep it to a minimum" thing.
Also lying causes other people not to trust you so that's a minus if there are certain people you prefer to have in your life. that probably isn't a big deal to you, but. it's a good way to loose friends.
I get too why the masking thing is nesasary, and while it is a lie, technically, I don't see it as harmful. There are so many lies that are harmful to others, so those, and gossip, will make me walk away from someone as fast as I can go. My walking away is also a done deal, 99.9% of the time.
I won't get into the religious part of this post although it's a subject I have some insight into. Having read the Bible several times, plus a study Bible which really helps get to heart of things. Funny thing is Jesus said almost the same thing as you did about doing unto others, it was love your neighbor as yourself.
Good post, brought some good discussion as well.
Well done
For what type of things do you lie?