I never get tired of your articles. I remember being around 12 when I found a scientific magazine for teenagers talking about psychopaths and their NPD (!). It was full of stories of people feeling destroyed after a relationship. It was implying psychopaths were just evil and silly me thought it would be better to isolate psychopaths from society. But it never occurred to me that implying psychopaths are evil is implying some people are born evil, and that's a cheap attempt to justify prejudice. Your articles made me realize our choices make what we are not our emotions.
Edit: the article is from the magazine Super Interessante, they have A LOT of articles about psychopathy, like "signals you are dating a psycopath" and "top 12 psychopaths from movies" and I stopped reading their material after that
In magazines for teenagers? That's amazing. Why people feel the need to create problems in the minds of teenagers where they shouldn't even be considering them baffles me. Let them be teenagers. Good lord, whoever made such a poor decision should never be in charge of what teenagers see.
"I never get tired of your articles" SO TRUE!!! Fabiana, I am the same: When Athena writes above: "They likely will not have any idea that you are experiencing pain due to their presence in your life."
Take out "they" and put me- Tim - bc as near as I can tell she is writing about me.!!!
I have no idea or know how to value that. But it makes me laugh with recognition!! Hey! How does she know so much about me and what happened in my life!! hahaha.
“You are the most wonderful woman in the world. You are perfect. Even your flaws are adorable!”
I've never said anything like this!! Ever. It is such BS, everyone would see right through it. Apparently, some believe this? And are hurt by it later> You mean I'm not the most beautiful of them all?
"The psychopath discards his ex-lovers with a degree of vitriol and hatred that astonishes his victims and exceeds any boundaries of normality.”
Really? I've never done this- ever. There are 100s of ex lovers I would welcome seeing today. I didn't 'astonish' any of them. I wish them all the best in their lives.
NPD is a personality disorder. Psychopathy is a neurological disorder. People like to conflate 'darkness' to find a bad guy but psychopathy is objectively neutral. Whereas personality disorders are relationally emotional. Differentiating is essential.
This was posted a while ago, but I came here for the same reason: someone wrote an article claiming all psychopaths are narcissist and they are on the same spectrum blah blah. I told them, no not accurate, two different things. They persisted and interestingly enough when explaining how and why they were correct and not me, they started showing some narcissistic behavior themselves... whoopsie lol
Hmmm, well the behavior pattern for NPD can be explained in psychological and in physiological terms, and for that matter, in religious terms, and I am somewhat interested in seeking a clue on whether those explanations are describing the same situation. It seems the same behavior pattern could have independent causes. Beyond the explanations, there are some explanations on Youtube by Dr Ramani that suggest ways neurotypicals, empaths, and other victims can deal with narcissists and minimize their long-term negative effects.
So, best research I have found on brain function/physiological differences is that some areas of the prefrontal cortex, and the insula are involved. The areas affected and specific traits still need further study, but one area suggests that memories of emotional experiences are short-lived. I also read some papers on comorbidity of psychopathy and NPD which seems to conflate sociopathy with psychopathy, an easy mistake to make in attempting to research antisocial personality disorders, which Mary Trump and Athena Walker rescued me from. The neural networks involved with narcissism are complex, involving many connections between prefrontal and limbic systems and limiting certain degrees of emotional empathy.
From my simplistic 10,000 foot view of psychology, the narcissist is one of thosse folk who does not know self, and is afraid to look or has impaired ability to know self. The fear of looking within and finding nothing there and overcoming that fear is part of the maturation process of neurotypicals, and seems to be sidestepped for narcissists who instead build grandiose self-images and be violently sensitive to challenges to those images.
From 3 different interpretations of Buddhism, where we are experiencing worlds for the purpose of learning through suffering until we achieve nirvana, we have the realm of Hungry Ghosts imaged as a huge stomach and tiny mouth as a realm or hell we might be incarnated into, or the realm of Jealous Gods (Tibetan Book of the Dead) again with the tiny mouth and huge stomach. Hungry Ghosts want food but are not corporate enough to eat and Jealous Gods want adulation, but can never get enough. A Japanese sect suggests that the mind may visit or process all of these 30,000 realms in a single lifetime, making the realms some sort of dream-construct, waking or sleeping. The major difference from the psychological and physiological views is that there is an element of choice (in some interpretations, slight) in accepting or rejecting narcissism.
But challenge the grandiose notions of a narcissist, and it seems to awaken a lasting, vengeful anger, where the narcissist might hack the phones of an entire family and listen to the recordings to find weaknesses and spread rumors to friends who have regular contact to disparage one target who made the challenge (personally witnessed as well-misinformed friends and distant family members were converted to flying monkeys for a person I value). That speaks pretty loudly to me of fear. Psychopaths, with their tiny amygdalas, have a very mild or nonexistent response to fear-inducing phenomenae. I may or may not be a psychopath, but with my tiny amygdala and undersized preoptic frontal cortex, am rarely angry, and if I am, it is gone in seconds, except I may have recognised a problem requiring attention.
Today someone mentioned online that some of the terms on the DM5 is to describe a set of behaviours and that's it - it reminded me of your perspective.
When it comes to NPD, it's argued to be "developed during childhood", nowdays I wonder what's really ment by this. From my observation dealing with these people, they have a lack of restrain in their actions to obtain validation, perhaps involving certain shades of low emotional empathy. But, it seems to me a cognitive choice at all times where you decide that you want and like validation/ maintain a certain image and develop behaviours to get your way - shared by people with the disorder. What's exactly "developing"? Saying that it develops during childhood feels like taking away responsability for the person and their behaviour as if it was just a "syndrome" taking over the poor little them !
In my family there are a few people with NPD. Today I decided to have some fun and put on the TV a few videos mentioning NPD and their manipulating behaviour. This family member got hostile and asked me to change the content because they were tired of listening to that. It hit home and didn't like what they heard, it seems.
It's a strange concept to me to internally feel validation by a false persona that you present and doesn't exist. I'm unable to feel emotional pay off giving a fake image.
NPD is pretty complex in it's origins. Elinor Greenberg who writes on Quora does an excellent job of describing those origins and what happens in childhood that causes that adaptation in their personality. I would recommend reading her contributions if you would like to know more about it, and where it comes from.
Hello, I have been reading your answers on quora and thought this would be the best place to ask:
What distinction do you make between narcissism as a trait and diagnosable narcissistic personality disorder? Is it correct to assume that rather than just a high sense of self you wouldn't fit many boxes required for the whole narcissist personality disorder that would involve emotions in a way a psychopath cannot feel?
I find this rather fascinating as I am getting a lot of insights in humans by learning about these disorders. Now I would be more capable of facing the world than I was before. Thanks for all the wisdom that you share on your posts...
Narcissistic traits are normal human traits. Everyone has them to some degree or another as it exists on a spectrum. This is no more unusual than everyone has agreeableness traits to some degree or another. Basically high narcissistic traits are the sharp end of confidence.
NPD is a diagnosable disorder that has very specific signs regarding it. The core of which is extremely low or nonexistent self-confidence.
Elinor Greenberg described it best:
What are narcissistic traits?
These are ways of thinking and behaving that are similar to those that are also seen in people who have a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. However, if you only have narcissistic traits, you do not qualify for a personality disorder diagnosis. Some common narcissistic traits are:
Self-centeredness.
Being very concerned with status.
Lacking emotional empathy.
Being controlling.
Not taking responsibility for your own mistakes.
Blaming other people when things go wrong.
Devaluing other people.
Needing constant validation.
Dominating conversations.
Being uninterested in other people except when it serves your needs.
Narcissistic traits exist on a spectrum. Some people have lots of narcissistic traits, while other people have very few.
What is a Personality Disorder?
In brief, a personality disorder is a maladaptive and rather rigid set of beliefs, behaviors, deficits, and coping strategies that are believed to have their start in early childhood, before the age of five, when the personality is forming.
In order to qualify for being a personality disorder, this pattern of being in the world must be pervasive, relatively stable across time, occur in almost all situations, and be used with most people.
in addition, from an Object Relations (OR) theoretical point of view, all people who qualify for a personality disorder must lack Whole Object Relations (WOR) and Object Constancy (OC).
What are whole object relations?
This is the ability to see yourself and other people in a realistic, integrated, and stable way that simultaneously includes both good and bad qualities. Without WOR, you can only see yourself and other people as all-good or all-bad with nothing in between.
What is object constancy?
This is the ability to stay emotionally connected to someone you like while you are hurt, frustrated, angry, disappointed, or physically distant from them. Without OC, during a fight, love can quickly turn to hatred and your loved one can seem like your enemy. The lack of OC is one of the main reasons that people abuse people they claim to love. During a fight, they “forget” the love and lose touch with all the positive past history.
What is Narcissistic Personality Disorder?
This is a personality disorder that is characterized by narcissistic traits, deficits, and coping mechanisms. In essence, people with NPD have all the issues of a personality disorder and they express these issues in distinctly narcissistic ways.
Punchline: Many people have narcissistic traits who do not qualify for a full diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Narcissistic traits are a less severe form of narcissism. Having a few narcissistic traits is the mildest form of narcissism.
Thank you SO MUCH for the incredible work that you do. I appreciate and admire your writing and in depth information so much and hope you know it's very beneficial ♥️ Keep it up!
I understand that psychopaths are inherently self interested. And you once said that you value honesty as long as it benefits you. What about fidelity? Would you practice it because you want reciprocation, or simply do not care?
Fidelity is vital to me. I have no interest in dealing with another person so I will only deal with monogamy. If someone cheats, they are immediately gone. I have no willingness to give second chances. They are expected to keep their word. If they choose not to do so, they will be gone before the end of the day.
*sings*Because it is so easy baby, two are more then a man can take, but one that is okay, that is churchly allowed, so we put two in a basket and call it one.*puts down his imaginary banjo*
From my lense people dislike to have two devils at the same time, or because they need a most evil villian in their internal storytelling.
Yup, and there are many more of them. I am going to do a series to talk about the real difficulties with psychopaths. I imagine that people that have had a relationship with a psychopath go sideways, if they look it up and find articles like this, they will just be confused.
You wrote “Psychopaths want you to be fun when you are with them and not a drag when you are not”, what would you considering annoying in terms of contact? Would you break up with a person if they contacted you too often by your standards? And how would relationship between two psychopath look like in this regard?
I would speak to them about it first. I understand that there is an initial heightened interest at the beginning of relationships with people. I don't expect them to change their physiology of course. However, if they want their boundaries respected, they have to respect mine as well.
Things that I would consider annoying? I dislike it when someone has a problem that is easily solved, but they either just want to complain about it for the sake of complaining, but in no way are interested in doing anything about it, or they have some overwrought emotional response to it that is unnecessary.
It is of course dependent on what we are doing. If we aren't planning anything for the day, then once is fine. If we are going somewhere, as many times as necessary to make the plans.
I never get tired of your articles. I remember being around 12 when I found a scientific magazine for teenagers talking about psychopaths and their NPD (!). It was full of stories of people feeling destroyed after a relationship. It was implying psychopaths were just evil and silly me thought it would be better to isolate psychopaths from society. But it never occurred to me that implying psychopaths are evil is implying some people are born evil, and that's a cheap attempt to justify prejudice. Your articles made me realize our choices make what we are not our emotions.
Edit: the article is from the magazine Super Interessante, they have A LOT of articles about psychopathy, like "signals you are dating a psycopath" and "top 12 psychopaths from movies" and I stopped reading their material after that
In magazines for teenagers? That's amazing. Why people feel the need to create problems in the minds of teenagers where they shouldn't even be considering them baffles me. Let them be teenagers. Good lord, whoever made such a poor decision should never be in charge of what teenagers see.
"I never get tired of your articles" SO TRUE!!! Fabiana, I am the same: When Athena writes above: "They likely will not have any idea that you are experiencing pain due to their presence in your life."
Take out "they" and put me- Tim - bc as near as I can tell she is writing about me.!!!
I have no idea or know how to value that. But it makes me laugh with recognition!! Hey! How does she know so much about me and what happened in my life!! hahaha.
“You are the most wonderful woman in the world. You are perfect. Even your flaws are adorable!”
I've never said anything like this!! Ever. It is such BS, everyone would see right through it. Apparently, some believe this? And are hurt by it later> You mean I'm not the most beautiful of them all?
"The psychopath discards his ex-lovers with a degree of vitriol and hatred that astonishes his victims and exceeds any boundaries of normality.”
Really? I've never done this- ever. There are 100s of ex lovers I would welcome seeing today. I didn't 'astonish' any of them. I wish them all the best in their lives.
I'm starting to see a pattern here!! TY Athena.
Indeed, and a poor pattern indeed
NPD is a personality disorder. Psychopathy is a neurological disorder. People like to conflate 'darkness' to find a bad guy but psychopathy is objectively neutral. Whereas personality disorders are relationally emotional. Differentiating is essential.
I agree.
This was posted a while ago, but I came here for the same reason: someone wrote an article claiming all psychopaths are narcissist and they are on the same spectrum blah blah. I told them, no not accurate, two different things. They persisted and interestingly enough when explaining how and why they were correct and not me, they started showing some narcissistic behavior themselves... whoopsie lol
That is interesting indeed
Hmmm, well the behavior pattern for NPD can be explained in psychological and in physiological terms, and for that matter, in religious terms, and I am somewhat interested in seeking a clue on whether those explanations are describing the same situation. It seems the same behavior pattern could have independent causes. Beyond the explanations, there are some explanations on Youtube by Dr Ramani that suggest ways neurotypicals, empaths, and other victims can deal with narcissists and minimize their long-term negative effects.
So, best research I have found on brain function/physiological differences is that some areas of the prefrontal cortex, and the insula are involved. The areas affected and specific traits still need further study, but one area suggests that memories of emotional experiences are short-lived. I also read some papers on comorbidity of psychopathy and NPD which seems to conflate sociopathy with psychopathy, an easy mistake to make in attempting to research antisocial personality disorders, which Mary Trump and Athena Walker rescued me from. The neural networks involved with narcissism are complex, involving many connections between prefrontal and limbic systems and limiting certain degrees of emotional empathy.
From my simplistic 10,000 foot view of psychology, the narcissist is one of thosse folk who does not know self, and is afraid to look or has impaired ability to know self. The fear of looking within and finding nothing there and overcoming that fear is part of the maturation process of neurotypicals, and seems to be sidestepped for narcissists who instead build grandiose self-images and be violently sensitive to challenges to those images.
From 3 different interpretations of Buddhism, where we are experiencing worlds for the purpose of learning through suffering until we achieve nirvana, we have the realm of Hungry Ghosts imaged as a huge stomach and tiny mouth as a realm or hell we might be incarnated into, or the realm of Jealous Gods (Tibetan Book of the Dead) again with the tiny mouth and huge stomach. Hungry Ghosts want food but are not corporate enough to eat and Jealous Gods want adulation, but can never get enough. A Japanese sect suggests that the mind may visit or process all of these 30,000 realms in a single lifetime, making the realms some sort of dream-construct, waking or sleeping. The major difference from the psychological and physiological views is that there is an element of choice (in some interpretations, slight) in accepting or rejecting narcissism.
But challenge the grandiose notions of a narcissist, and it seems to awaken a lasting, vengeful anger, where the narcissist might hack the phones of an entire family and listen to the recordings to find weaknesses and spread rumors to friends who have regular contact to disparage one target who made the challenge (personally witnessed as well-misinformed friends and distant family members were converted to flying monkeys for a person I value). That speaks pretty loudly to me of fear. Psychopaths, with their tiny amygdalas, have a very mild or nonexistent response to fear-inducing phenomenae. I may or may not be a psychopath, but with my tiny amygdala and undersized preoptic frontal cortex, am rarely angry, and if I am, it is gone in seconds, except I may have recognised a problem requiring attention.
Today someone mentioned online that some of the terms on the DM5 is to describe a set of behaviours and that's it - it reminded me of your perspective.
When it comes to NPD, it's argued to be "developed during childhood", nowdays I wonder what's really ment by this. From my observation dealing with these people, they have a lack of restrain in their actions to obtain validation, perhaps involving certain shades of low emotional empathy. But, it seems to me a cognitive choice at all times where you decide that you want and like validation/ maintain a certain image and develop behaviours to get your way - shared by people with the disorder. What's exactly "developing"? Saying that it develops during childhood feels like taking away responsability for the person and their behaviour as if it was just a "syndrome" taking over the poor little them !
In my family there are a few people with NPD. Today I decided to have some fun and put on the TV a few videos mentioning NPD and their manipulating behaviour. This family member got hostile and asked me to change the content because they were tired of listening to that. It hit home and didn't like what they heard, it seems.
It's a strange concept to me to internally feel validation by a false persona that you present and doesn't exist. I'm unable to feel emotional pay off giving a fake image.
NPD is pretty complex in it's origins. Elinor Greenberg who writes on Quora does an excellent job of describing those origins and what happens in childhood that causes that adaptation in their personality. I would recommend reading her contributions if you would like to know more about it, and where it comes from.
Hello, I have been reading your answers on quora and thought this would be the best place to ask:
What distinction do you make between narcissism as a trait and diagnosable narcissistic personality disorder? Is it correct to assume that rather than just a high sense of self you wouldn't fit many boxes required for the whole narcissist personality disorder that would involve emotions in a way a psychopath cannot feel?
I find this rather fascinating as I am getting a lot of insights in humans by learning about these disorders. Now I would be more capable of facing the world than I was before. Thanks for all the wisdom that you share on your posts...
They aren't even remotely related.
Narcissistic traits are normal human traits. Everyone has them to some degree or another as it exists on a spectrum. This is no more unusual than everyone has agreeableness traits to some degree or another. Basically high narcissistic traits are the sharp end of confidence.
NPD is a diagnosable disorder that has very specific signs regarding it. The core of which is extremely low or nonexistent self-confidence.
Elinor Greenberg described it best:
What are narcissistic traits?
These are ways of thinking and behaving that are similar to those that are also seen in people who have a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. However, if you only have narcissistic traits, you do not qualify for a personality disorder diagnosis. Some common narcissistic traits are:
Self-centeredness.
Being very concerned with status.
Lacking emotional empathy.
Being controlling.
Not taking responsibility for your own mistakes.
Blaming other people when things go wrong.
Devaluing other people.
Needing constant validation.
Dominating conversations.
Being uninterested in other people except when it serves your needs.
Narcissistic traits exist on a spectrum. Some people have lots of narcissistic traits, while other people have very few.
What is a Personality Disorder?
In brief, a personality disorder is a maladaptive and rather rigid set of beliefs, behaviors, deficits, and coping strategies that are believed to have their start in early childhood, before the age of five, when the personality is forming.
In order to qualify for being a personality disorder, this pattern of being in the world must be pervasive, relatively stable across time, occur in almost all situations, and be used with most people.
in addition, from an Object Relations (OR) theoretical point of view, all people who qualify for a personality disorder must lack Whole Object Relations (WOR) and Object Constancy (OC).
What are whole object relations?
This is the ability to see yourself and other people in a realistic, integrated, and stable way that simultaneously includes both good and bad qualities. Without WOR, you can only see yourself and other people as all-good or all-bad with nothing in between.
What is object constancy?
This is the ability to stay emotionally connected to someone you like while you are hurt, frustrated, angry, disappointed, or physically distant from them. Without OC, during a fight, love can quickly turn to hatred and your loved one can seem like your enemy. The lack of OC is one of the main reasons that people abuse people they claim to love. During a fight, they “forget” the love and lose touch with all the positive past history.
What is Narcissistic Personality Disorder?
This is a personality disorder that is characterized by narcissistic traits, deficits, and coping mechanisms. In essence, people with NPD have all the issues of a personality disorder and they express these issues in distinctly narcissistic ways.
Punchline: Many people have narcissistic traits who do not qualify for a full diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Narcissistic traits are a less severe form of narcissism. Having a few narcissistic traits is the mildest form of narcissism.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-less-severe-form-of-narcissism/answer/Elinor-Greenberg
Very interesting. Thank you.
Thank you for reading
thank you so much for this chapter, for the education you’ve provided me.
You are quite welcome
Thank you SO MUCH for the incredible work that you do. I appreciate and admire your writing and in depth information so much and hope you know it's very beneficial ♥️ Keep it up!
Thank you, Indigo
I understand that psychopaths are inherently self interested. And you once said that you value honesty as long as it benefits you. What about fidelity? Would you practice it because you want reciprocation, or simply do not care?
Fidelity is vital to me. I have no interest in dealing with another person so I will only deal with monogamy. If someone cheats, they are immediately gone. I have no willingness to give second chances. They are expected to keep their word. If they choose not to do so, they will be gone before the end of the day.
So it's a principle thing, and thus would vary among different psychopaths, right? Just like among NTs?
Yes. There are certainly psychopaths that cheat.
*sings*Because it is so easy baby, two are more then a man can take, but one that is okay, that is churchly allowed, so we put two in a basket and call it one.*puts down his imaginary banjo*
From my lense people dislike to have two devils at the same time, or because they need a most evil villian in their internal storytelling.
Another great response. Where on earth do you find these ridiculous publications? (Rhetorical question)
The author just flat-out describes the pop-psychology evil mastermind super villain plans of NPD while calling it psychopathy.
Yup, and there are many more of them. I am going to do a series to talk about the real difficulties with psychopaths. I imagine that people that have had a relationship with a psychopath go sideways, if they look it up and find articles like this, they will just be confused.
Great, I am eager to hear about the real difficulties with psychopaths.
Great post, as usual.
A have a couple of questions.
You wrote “Psychopaths want you to be fun when you are with them and not a drag when you are not”, what would you considering annoying in terms of contact? Would you break up with a person if they contacted you too often by your standards? And how would relationship between two psychopath look like in this regard?
I would speak to them about it first. I understand that there is an initial heightened interest at the beginning of relationships with people. I don't expect them to change their physiology of course. However, if they want their boundaries respected, they have to respect mine as well.
Things that I would consider annoying? I dislike it when someone has a problem that is easily solved, but they either just want to complain about it for the sake of complaining, but in no way are interested in doing anything about it, or they have some overwrought emotional response to it that is unnecessary.
Very few people text or call their partners 24/7, but most still do so more more frequently than you would, I think. How often is too often for you?
Thank you!
It is of course dependent on what we are doing. If we aren't planning anything for the day, then once is fine. If we are going somewhere, as many times as necessary to make the plans.
Oh so you don’t normally contact your partner just to chat or discuss something?
Not unless I think that they may have insight that I lack, no.