This is a really interesting article. I can relate to a lot of what is said here, not from the normalcy bias side of things, more the Athena view of things.
I’m a NT. I’m honest, a straight talker and I too know when I’m being lied to. I also put it down to a subconscious ‘ noticing’ of a variety of cues, which If asked I probably wouldn’t actually be able to explain detail by detail what those cues actually are. Gut instinct then, but my gut happens to be right almost all of the time. Almost. I was caught out once online. I can’t get an accurate read through an iPad screen, which tells me I am very reliant on non verbal cues as a means to assess character and truthfulness. The online environment is by far the most risky in my opinion. Online dating, chat rooms, all risky areas if you ask me. I think this is where normalcy bias is at its most acute for me. I see what I expect to see. I’m honest, so he must be honest too right? Wrong.
I very rarely tell a liar that I know they lied. I’m far more interested in understanding WHY they lied. That’s far more interesting than the lie itself and reveals an awful lot about character, vulnerabilities and priorities.
I too pay attention to international news and I too made the assessment that COVID was going to be a huge deal. Yes, we were stocked ahead of time, I bought a little extra for weeks and by the time COVID was catching on here we had full cupboards and I had also been shopping for my parents to keep them safe and away from infection. I was ready. I’m not sure what it was about those early reports that signalled to me that I needed to prepare, but I quietly started preparations even though friends and relatives thought it was an over reaction on my part. I have since been asked how I knew, I too put it down to the way I assimilate information. I’m very much about what is not said rather than simply what IS said.
I am not a nervous person, I walk my dog in the dark because I enjoy the silence but I live in a small village and I am always aware of my surroundings. I wouldn’t walk him late if I was in a city. I am self aware and reasonably observant and very ready to trust my instincts and play it safe. My instincts are sound. I trust them. Similarly, I change my walking route often and I rarely walk at the same time, so there are no patterns with me. Yes I walk late, but I also use my head.
Normalcy biases are dangerous I agree. I agree also that we all have them. There is the tendency to trust and believe that people are wired the same way as ourselves. I love people, people are the point of it all for me. I’m a listener though. I reveal very little and even when I know people well, I never reveal all. Some people have pointed out that I should be more open, more trusting I suppose. I am not trusting but neither am I particularly distrusting. I am watchful.
Nothing irritates me more than people thinking that things will go their way just because they want them to.
I have a certain relative who goes through life with this attitude. She thinks that no matter what she does, things will be just fine, as if she’s somehow special and the rest of us are stupid and paranoid for being cautious or following rules.
She’s made countless illogical and careless decisions that have put herself, her son, and her husband in physical, emotional, and financial danger. When I or others have tried to caution her or advise her, she’s blown us off, insisting that nothing bad will happen, as if she owns a crystal ball. The most irritating thing is that she’s been ridiculously lucky, and so far nothing bad has actually happened. This just emboldens her and leads her to believe that risk taking pays off.
I love her and her family and don’t want anything bad to happen to them, but the way she lives her life, so recklessly, it’s only a matter of time until someone gets hurt. It’s a weird feeling, praying that when things go wrong, it will be mild enough to scare some sense into her before something worse happens. You spend your whole life gambling, statistics prove that eventually you will lose.
It's unfortunate that there are people that, for their own safety, you hope that they get a tiny taste of the real world long before it shows them its full set of teeth.
Very timely and insightful post. So many issues here, you could expand indefinitely without losing appeal!
I agree with the need to "put up a fight".
With one explanation: Many dead women are found having put up a decent strong fight. Often, under their fingernails are flesh: Flesh from the face and "around" the eye sockets.
Even in fighting for their lives, dead women generally avoid using their nails to gouge the eyeball and dislodge it from its socket. Dead women reason that the attacker will end the attack from scratches and scraps.
As you demonstrate, these decisions are made before the fight of your life: A decision to live, by inflicting trauma, or to die by scratching.
Most women do not inflict sufficient trauma to the attackers body to stop him. He knows this and he can not be reasoned with.
However, his eye out of his head MAY slow him down. Crushed into the eye socket also has a good affect.
Martial artists train by a set of rules, points and pins and tap outs and the like: So they often "lose" to criminal attacks. Criminals have but one rule: You are going down as quickly as possible by inflicting trauma to your body.
If you are attacked, unlike 100s of others, can you take your finger and jab it into the attacker's eye socket with the intent to permanently destroy his eye?
Most women are unsure if they would. So usually they opt to scratch.
I am an senior citizen and much smaller than average. Nevertheless, if you are attacked while you are with me, I will fight to the death of every attacker that confronts us. I know this bc I made that decision long ago.
If attacked, I mentally expect at least five attackers.
Athena, this is how I speak with my own daughters, Please let me know if I should delete this. I wish to be helpful but not offensive.
Of course there are women that tried to fight and lost, but their situation would not have resolved any differently without that fight, and there are plenty of women and men that tell the tale about their escape because of the fact they were too much trouble. Instead of focusing on those that tried and failed, focus on those that fought and lived to tell the tale.
As I stated in the post, it isn't about being able to physically fight him off, it is about being way too much trouble for him to take the risk. Telling someone that it is a lost cause before they even begin is rather shortsighted and silly. People should not be resigned to death, they should be resigned to fight an attacker with everything that they have. Scratching, biting, screaming, struggling, all of it can give someone a chance.
Also, how many of those women that fought, did so at the secondary location, not when they had a much higher chance of survival. I would bet many went out of fear, thinking that they would survive, but only realized that they were about to lose their lives when it was too late to do anything about it.
I wouldn't suggest that a female allow an attacker close enough to have to try and make this work. Better to keep them at bay. Once they are close, the chances of escape drop dramatically.
Absolutely true, the issue with a woman attempting to fight dirty when she isn't trained to fight is that she'll get "bodied" with very little difficulty.
Have to agree with you here invisigoth. I’m fit, lift weights in the gym, not girl weights, proper weights, deadlifts, snatches, pull ups etc. I’m fit and I’m strong, But even then, physically I’m just not big enough, heavy enough or tall enough to fight off a guy. I’d have a good go if there was no other option but evasive action is far more more sensible. Scream, scratch, bite, kick, break things, knock things over to draw attention., kick a car door to try to set off the alarm. Funnily enough, I’ve read that spitting can buy a second or two of time to run away. It’s almost reflexive to wipe your face if spat at.
I agree also that if you arrive at the secondary location, chances of survival are even slimmer. If making a stand you do it straight off the bat. These people are not going to be persuaded to let you go because you are ‘nice’.
Yeah, that's how it is. I've lifted weights for decades, I'm 6 foot 2, but I'm still a pissweak wee girlie and I know it. No point having illusions about one's capability.
I came to weight training late. Roughly about 8 yrs ago. I wish I had found it sooner. Training, setting and working towards targets, being able to see my body change and grow stronger has really grounded me, boosted my self confidence. Great for mood management too, especially in the darker winter months. I’m 5ft 6, so I’m under no illusions just less easy pickings perhaps than I once was!
It appears you are responding in some measure to my post:
In my post, the women, now dead, were already fighting, as in hand to hand.
While you offer some valid observations, don't rain on my deal.
My info comes from the Sex Crimes Desk in DAs office in San Diego. Maybe they are wrong.
They say woman already involved (did you call it "bodied? is that what you said?) in close quarters fights often scratch around the eyes.
They make the assessment that even in a fight that led to women dying, they failed to direct their attack properly: In the eyeball, not around the eyeball.
I really don't want to debate something like this on a thread discussing some valid and interesting other observations. If someone is assisted by you, GREAT!!
If I was attacked physically I would exhibit a fear response. My adrenal gland would pump out adrenaline, in turn my blood oxygen level would rise, my muscles would use stored glycogen for energy, my range of vision would narrow to aid focus, my thought processing would speed up. These modifications are designed to assist me in a fight or flight scenario.
As a psychopath, there is no fear response. Does this also mean that in the event of physical attack, you would not release adrenaline? If this is the case, in this specific scenario is the lack of fear response actually a physical disadvantage?
Thank you for attaching the relevant article for me. Interesting. I hadn’t thought about separating emotional fear from the physical survival instinct but it makes sense. So if locked in a burning building you would go frantic trying to get out, trying to survive as the cognitive recognition of the gravity of the situation would spark an adrenaline response. You wouldn’t be afraid of the fire though, you wouldn’t be afraid of the pain of death itself, though you might recognise death was on the doorstep. The focus would be solely on getting out.
I find it really difficult to imagine not experiencing fear. I can imagine not experiencing love ( as I experience love, chemical love) or sadness but fear, I see as being automatic, an early warning system and can’t really separate it out into an emotional and survival based experience.
The more I learn the more questions I seem to have! Thank you for your patience in signposting.
Startle response and adrenal dump happens but it hits us different . Let me clarify, along with adrenaline other things happen in emergency situations. Blood flow is rerouted away from internal organs and specifically parts of the brain. With an NT they have a LOT going on in the forebrain and midbrain.
Having the lizard brain wake up for a psychopath is no big deal, having your midbrain and forebrain taken offline and having the lizard brain take over is not comfortable for an NT.
If I was in the situation where I was forced to fight off an attacker, you’re right I don’t think I would have thought about the eyes. I’d think to kick and aim for the groin area, I’d think to bite and scream, I’d punch and aim for the Solar Plexus, but I wouldn’t have thought about the eyes. Now I would. Thank you.
You are welcome!! Obviously I hope you are never in this situation.
Athena is quite correct of logistics and learning from survivors and being positive. Very much so.
Certainly don't rely on "you" when you can: flee, get help, have an alternative.
I was recently struck in the face by an attacker. I should have immediately run. And I didn't.
It is very fortunate he had no backup as I would have been at their mercy. I have to accept, as presented in this thread, I was foolish and my priority should have been to get away quickly.
I’m so sorry to hear that you were physically attacked Tim. Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn’t it? You had been struck, and chose to hit back. Decision making in those situations must be very instinctive, your instincts might well have been correct at that point, maybe not, but I’m glad you are here to tell the tale!
Great Read! !!! Being a Marine that’s experienced the feelings described ranging from PTSD induced hyper vigilance ( a state where your body has taken on a flood of cortisol and adrenaline preparing for whatever lies ahead is far from something one should dismiss ….. it’s your subconscious picking up on subtle cues somethings amiss , processing that data in compressed time frame , and logically concluding it’s best to be in a physical state ready for battle . This process is a quick instantaneous reaction to perceived physical danger better known as your “ fight / flight “ instinct . We all have it as it is a survival mechanism that slows the actual chaos around us down so that we can hopefully work thru a dangerous situation without being overcome by the events unfolding at a rate faster that we can react to them ( being caught like deer in the headlights frozen unable to move ) in this respect ….a little paranoia, heightened sense of awareness, or simply listening to your gut that somethings wrong can be the difference between getting hurt or worse . Complacency ,being dismissive of cues is far more dangerous and has killed many seasoned tactical experts , soldiers cops than you can imagine. It’s easy to fool yourself into thinking because you have a weapon or take karate or whatever that you’ll also be able to navigate the rapid series of events and be in a position of advantage faster than your opponent who is already ahead of you in that curve by default having decided when and where to attack . Gunfights are won by thousandths of a second , unless your a person expert in kinetic environments able to think and react accurately and decisively in compressed time frames …… my advice is to heed your gut instinct , paranoia or fear and avoid the risk, stress and live . You can beat yourself up over it or laugh at yourself when safe at home .
“ it’s not the dark I fear , but the possibility something wanting to do me harm could be right in front of me concealed from view lying in wait and I would miss it ….
In my humble opinion the normalcy bias can be caused by laziness or fear of looking silly.
I am likely to think a situation is normal because I don't want to spend my energy and I have to pay attention to that. This can be dangerous when someone's else safety depends on me, like a friend saying "there is a strange car parked next to mine" and I may answer "it's probably fine". Not good.
The second situation happened a few years with a friend of mine. He was very young (around 11) when he saw a building on fire. There were two securities guards on other building and he ran there as fast as he could to warn them but they refused to believe him. They thought he was joking. It took them a while to seem a building on fire and long short story the fire destroyed the building and it had to go through renovations. Luckily no one was inside the building and the fire was caused by the irregular use of it as a deposit. Someone put a lot of inflammable material there and any source of spark or short circuit could have started the fire.
This story really marked me because I used to have classes on that building. So the idea of being trapped in a fire, possibly suffocating to death while some lazy guards lost their time wondering of they should check the building is very unpleasant to say the least
A lot of people have no idea what will happen when things go off the rails. There are literally people that do not understand that milk does not come from the grocery store and when the grocery store doesn't have it any more, that means that they don't have milk.
Most people will not dare to see the world as it is. For you, there is no cost i doing so, but for neurotypicals it can be enormously mentally taxing. Its just asking for depression and anxiety. People believe in normalcy because they need to.
Pre-covid, I did the same thing as you. Stocked up on food and masks.
My family kept asking me “This isn’t going to really happen, right? You’re just being precautious?”
I told them what they needed to hear, so that they can keep functioning. People avoid watching the news for the same reason. Its true that this way of thinking might lead to their demise, but that is also true of those like me, who have basically normal emotions and don’t fool themselves with the normalcy bullshit.
This is so true. I engaged with the totality of the covid news, and the terror of what it might men geopolitical, and it nearly finished me off. No shame on those who choose not to see the world as it is.
Dear Athena, you are a conscious and sentient polygraph. No, seriously. If the point is to awaken to the truth of existence and consciousness, I can think of no better and greater superpower than to be a human lie detector. The Buddha had just such a superpower. And best of all, just like him, you share your thoughts, insights and experiences with other people through your writing, which is also teaching (hey, we could be talking about the “Noble Eightfold (Psycho)Path” here!). Your hard-hitting and accurate articles not only broaden the horizons and stimulate the critical thinking of those who read them, but also, like this latest article, can be life-saving. So thank you very much. I wish all neurotypicals would read you. I wish all psychopaths were a little more like you. So, yes, thank you so much, Athena (by the way, according to wikipedia, “Athena is an ancient Greek goddess, daughter of Zeus, produced without a mother, so that she emerged full-grown from his forehead. She is associated with wisdom, warfare, and handicraft. Athena was regarded as the patron and protectress of various cities across Greece, particularly the city of Athens, from which she most likely received her name. Athena was known as Atrytone (Άτρυτώνη "the Unwearying"), Parthenos (Παρθένος "Virgin"), and Promachos (Πρόμαχος "she who fights in front").
In fact DNA testing, much to my amusement, shows that I have genetic markers as not being risk averse.
What I observe in myself is that I learned to make sort of bayesian analysis of situations and from that decide whether something is worth risking or if I should pass on it.
Neurotypicals seem to invest emotional energy into the assessments they make and if something like a "triple dog dare" or "you'll look silly/sexist/racist" is inserted into the formula then they will default to "everything is normal here" which frequently leads to disaster.
The odd thing is that normal human beings will routinely manipulate each other with exactly those mechanisms
Athena, if we are talking about world events and our responses. Do you think the US response to the Russo-Ukrainian war is reasonable or not? I am not asking for any political or military analysis, I am just asking you as a person. Obviously with the sanctions and so on, this conflict is affecting people personally.
Very interesting perspective, I must admit I made the assumption you would not care about many of these scenarios due to a lack of fear from a smaller amygdala, however you are of course still aware of risks and take practical steps to mitigate those risks. Insightful.
It seems our emotions short circuit our common sense and better judgement, this is a running theme in your posts and always interesting.
Oh, and you should totally do a post on Ray from Mr Inbetween, a character analysis would be awesome.
You are correct, some are mentally ill and certainly will attack you.
It must be annoying that people refuse to listen to you when you offer them good advice.
I think that people cannot detect lies or liars because they are projecting onto that person their own social assumptions. If you are able to discern that others think differently than you do in general, you are going to be more able to detect lies.
The only argument that I could find against keeping water in the car would be the exposure of the plastic to heat may leach plastic into the water making it unhealthy to drink, but that is the only thing I can come up with that is reasonable.
It’s always a fine line between being cautious and being paranoid, just as it’s a fine line between trusting and reckless. I consider myself to be a carefully kind cynic. One difficult aspect of trying to be a genuinely generous and friendly person is not wanting to alarm people with your kindness. That sounds weird but people are rightly suspicious of your motivations when you’re generous or overly friendly, because unethical and immoral people will use friendliness as a mask in order to connive and take advantage. I once legitimately scared an old woman by offering to carry a large, unwieldy box for her up a flight of stairs. We lived in the same apartment building and I was concerned about her- I didn’t want her to fall or drop her box (it was almost as big as she was) but she totally flipped out when I tried to take it from her, so I backed off. I don’t blame her for being suspicious but it really made me sad.
It’s always hard to know who to trust, when it comes to strangers. I’m wary but I also try to be careful about the conclusions I draw. Like Athena said, a lot comes down to the situation and the associated risks. Don’t take unnecessary risks and always be analytical. Better to offend someone than to get hurt. But also, if the situation isn’t threatening, it’s okay to occasionally accept the kindness of a stranger (like if there’s lots of witnesses or there’s no obvious benefit/advantage to them by accepting their help). I try to show kindness whenever I can do so without making someone feel threatened or vulnerable. It’s not easy to be kind in an unkind world.
“It’s not easy to be kind in an unkind world.” It really isn’t. Sometimes I have to ask myself if offering help is the right thing to do. A few days ago I was going in to the supermarket and there was an old man, blind, crossing the car park using his white stick. Facially, he was noticeably blind. I slowed down to make sure he crossed the slip road successfully and could find the entrance. I didn’t say anything at first. Offer assistance or not? Would I offend him by offering assistance? Would I be implying that he was unable to cope on his own? I really wasn’t sure, no one else was paying any attention at all and the entrance was busy.
I did ask in the end, I think I said something like, “Hello, it’s quite busy today, do you need any help?” He responded that he didn’t, but smiled and thanked me for offering and then a few seconds later he spoke again. “Thanks love, that was really kind of you, you have a good day now.”
I felt good, then I felt a bit sad that this old guy was on his own, without his sight and having to do his shopping.
It isn’t easy to be kind in this world, I think we can only do our best. Offer help or kindness but not be offended if it isn’t welcomed. Sometimes it really is welcomed and in some cases it might be the only kind word that person hears all day.
"When you look at someone through rose-colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags."
- Bojack Horseman (Season 2, Episode 10)
That is a great quote
This is a really interesting article. I can relate to a lot of what is said here, not from the normalcy bias side of things, more the Athena view of things.
I’m a NT. I’m honest, a straight talker and I too know when I’m being lied to. I also put it down to a subconscious ‘ noticing’ of a variety of cues, which If asked I probably wouldn’t actually be able to explain detail by detail what those cues actually are. Gut instinct then, but my gut happens to be right almost all of the time. Almost. I was caught out once online. I can’t get an accurate read through an iPad screen, which tells me I am very reliant on non verbal cues as a means to assess character and truthfulness. The online environment is by far the most risky in my opinion. Online dating, chat rooms, all risky areas if you ask me. I think this is where normalcy bias is at its most acute for me. I see what I expect to see. I’m honest, so he must be honest too right? Wrong.
I very rarely tell a liar that I know they lied. I’m far more interested in understanding WHY they lied. That’s far more interesting than the lie itself and reveals an awful lot about character, vulnerabilities and priorities.
I too pay attention to international news and I too made the assessment that COVID was going to be a huge deal. Yes, we were stocked ahead of time, I bought a little extra for weeks and by the time COVID was catching on here we had full cupboards and I had also been shopping for my parents to keep them safe and away from infection. I was ready. I’m not sure what it was about those early reports that signalled to me that I needed to prepare, but I quietly started preparations even though friends and relatives thought it was an over reaction on my part. I have since been asked how I knew, I too put it down to the way I assimilate information. I’m very much about what is not said rather than simply what IS said.
I am not a nervous person, I walk my dog in the dark because I enjoy the silence but I live in a small village and I am always aware of my surroundings. I wouldn’t walk him late if I was in a city. I am self aware and reasonably observant and very ready to trust my instincts and play it safe. My instincts are sound. I trust them. Similarly, I change my walking route often and I rarely walk at the same time, so there are no patterns with me. Yes I walk late, but I also use my head.
Normalcy biases are dangerous I agree. I agree also that we all have them. There is the tendency to trust and believe that people are wired the same way as ourselves. I love people, people are the point of it all for me. I’m a listener though. I reveal very little and even when I know people well, I never reveal all. Some people have pointed out that I should be more open, more trusting I suppose. I am not trusting but neither am I particularly distrusting. I am watchful.
It sounds like you've got things exactly right.
Nothing irritates me more than people thinking that things will go their way just because they want them to.
I have a certain relative who goes through life with this attitude. She thinks that no matter what she does, things will be just fine, as if she’s somehow special and the rest of us are stupid and paranoid for being cautious or following rules.
She’s made countless illogical and careless decisions that have put herself, her son, and her husband in physical, emotional, and financial danger. When I or others have tried to caution her or advise her, she’s blown us off, insisting that nothing bad will happen, as if she owns a crystal ball. The most irritating thing is that she’s been ridiculously lucky, and so far nothing bad has actually happened. This just emboldens her and leads her to believe that risk taking pays off.
I love her and her family and don’t want anything bad to happen to them, but the way she lives her life, so recklessly, it’s only a matter of time until someone gets hurt. It’s a weird feeling, praying that when things go wrong, it will be mild enough to scare some sense into her before something worse happens. You spend your whole life gambling, statistics prove that eventually you will lose.
It's unfortunate that there are people that, for their own safety, you hope that they get a tiny taste of the real world long before it shows them its full set of teeth.
That seriously sucks for you. It's enormously frustrating.
This is true
Very timely and insightful post. So many issues here, you could expand indefinitely without losing appeal!
I agree with the need to "put up a fight".
With one explanation: Many dead women are found having put up a decent strong fight. Often, under their fingernails are flesh: Flesh from the face and "around" the eye sockets.
Even in fighting for their lives, dead women generally avoid using their nails to gouge the eyeball and dislodge it from its socket. Dead women reason that the attacker will end the attack from scratches and scraps.
As you demonstrate, these decisions are made before the fight of your life: A decision to live, by inflicting trauma, or to die by scratching.
Most women do not inflict sufficient trauma to the attackers body to stop him. He knows this and he can not be reasoned with.
However, his eye out of his head MAY slow him down. Crushed into the eye socket also has a good affect.
Martial artists train by a set of rules, points and pins and tap outs and the like: So they often "lose" to criminal attacks. Criminals have but one rule: You are going down as quickly as possible by inflicting trauma to your body.
If you are attacked, unlike 100s of others, can you take your finger and jab it into the attacker's eye socket with the intent to permanently destroy his eye?
Most women are unsure if they would. So usually they opt to scratch.
I am an senior citizen and much smaller than average. Nevertheless, if you are attacked while you are with me, I will fight to the death of every attacker that confronts us. I know this bc I made that decision long ago.
If attacked, I mentally expect at least five attackers.
Athena, this is how I speak with my own daughters, Please let me know if I should delete this. I wish to be helpful but not offensive.
Thanks!!
Of course there are women that tried to fight and lost, but their situation would not have resolved any differently without that fight, and there are plenty of women and men that tell the tale about their escape because of the fact they were too much trouble. Instead of focusing on those that tried and failed, focus on those that fought and lived to tell the tale.
As I stated in the post, it isn't about being able to physically fight him off, it is about being way too much trouble for him to take the risk. Telling someone that it is a lost cause before they even begin is rather shortsighted and silly. People should not be resigned to death, they should be resigned to fight an attacker with everything that they have. Scratching, biting, screaming, struggling, all of it can give someone a chance.
Also, how many of those women that fought, did so at the secondary location, not when they had a much higher chance of survival. I would bet many went out of fear, thinking that they would survive, but only realized that they were about to lose their lives when it was too late to do anything about it.
Protip: a violent impact to the temple area often results in the eyeball "popping out".
You don't want to know how I know this
I wouldn't suggest that a female allow an attacker close enough to have to try and make this work. Better to keep them at bay. Once they are close, the chances of escape drop dramatically.
Absolutely true, the issue with a woman attempting to fight dirty when she isn't trained to fight is that she'll get "bodied" with very little difficulty.
Yes, very true. It is really about drawing way too much attention for the trouble to be worth it.
Have to agree with you here invisigoth. I’m fit, lift weights in the gym, not girl weights, proper weights, deadlifts, snatches, pull ups etc. I’m fit and I’m strong, But even then, physically I’m just not big enough, heavy enough or tall enough to fight off a guy. I’d have a good go if there was no other option but evasive action is far more more sensible. Scream, scratch, bite, kick, break things, knock things over to draw attention., kick a car door to try to set off the alarm. Funnily enough, I’ve read that spitting can buy a second or two of time to run away. It’s almost reflexive to wipe your face if spat at.
I agree also that if you arrive at the secondary location, chances of survival are even slimmer. If making a stand you do it straight off the bat. These people are not going to be persuaded to let you go because you are ‘nice’.
Yeah, that's how it is. I've lifted weights for decades, I'm 6 foot 2, but I'm still a pissweak wee girlie and I know it. No point having illusions about one's capability.
I came to weight training late. Roughly about 8 yrs ago. I wish I had found it sooner. Training, setting and working towards targets, being able to see my body change and grow stronger has really grounded me, boosted my self confidence. Great for mood management too, especially in the darker winter months. I’m 5ft 6, so I’m under no illusions just less easy pickings perhaps than I once was!
It appears you are responding in some measure to my post:
In my post, the women, now dead, were already fighting, as in hand to hand.
While you offer some valid observations, don't rain on my deal.
My info comes from the Sex Crimes Desk in DAs office in San Diego. Maybe they are wrong.
They say woman already involved (did you call it "bodied? is that what you said?) in close quarters fights often scratch around the eyes.
They make the assessment that even in a fight that led to women dying, they failed to direct their attack properly: In the eyeball, not around the eyeball.
I really don't want to debate something like this on a thread discussing some valid and interesting other observations. If someone is assisted by you, GREAT!!
Please honor my post with the same. Thanks.
Fair enough
I have a question about fear.
If I was attacked physically I would exhibit a fear response. My adrenal gland would pump out adrenaline, in turn my blood oxygen level would rise, my muscles would use stored glycogen for energy, my range of vision would narrow to aid focus, my thought processing would speed up. These modifications are designed to assist me in a fight or flight scenario.
As a psychopath, there is no fear response. Does this also mean that in the event of physical attack, you would not release adrenaline? If this is the case, in this specific scenario is the lack of fear response actually a physical disadvantage?
I actually addressed this in detail here:
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/fear
but Invisigoth is correct in his response below.
Hello Athena,
Thank you for attaching the relevant article for me. Interesting. I hadn’t thought about separating emotional fear from the physical survival instinct but it makes sense. So if locked in a burning building you would go frantic trying to get out, trying to survive as the cognitive recognition of the gravity of the situation would spark an adrenaline response. You wouldn’t be afraid of the fire though, you wouldn’t be afraid of the pain of death itself, though you might recognise death was on the doorstep. The focus would be solely on getting out.
I find it really difficult to imagine not experiencing fear. I can imagine not experiencing love ( as I experience love, chemical love) or sadness but fear, I see as being automatic, an early warning system and can’t really separate it out into an emotional and survival based experience.
The more I learn the more questions I seem to have! Thank you for your patience in signposting.
Startle response and adrenal dump happens but it hits us different . Let me clarify, along with adrenaline other things happen in emergency situations. Blood flow is rerouted away from internal organs and specifically parts of the brain. With an NT they have a LOT going on in the forebrain and midbrain.
Having the lizard brain wake up for a psychopath is no big deal, having your midbrain and forebrain taken offline and having the lizard brain take over is not comfortable for an NT.
Thank you for your reply invisigoth. Lizard brain is a great description, I kind of sense what you mean by that.
I think I have more of a Bambi brain! Ha ha ! Got me? Excellent!
Well said
Certainly true: I do not want to know. Thank you for that.
Protip: Stay with tried and true.
Violently "poking" the eyeball as hard as you can, sufficient to destroy the eyeball MAY inflict sufficient trauma to stop the attack.
Other means or methods aren't as likely.
Hi Tim,
If I was in the situation where I was forced to fight off an attacker, you’re right I don’t think I would have thought about the eyes. I’d think to kick and aim for the groin area, I’d think to bite and scream, I’d punch and aim for the Solar Plexus, but I wouldn’t have thought about the eyes. Now I would. Thank you.
You are welcome!! Obviously I hope you are never in this situation.
Athena is quite correct of logistics and learning from survivors and being positive. Very much so.
Certainly don't rely on "you" when you can: flee, get help, have an alternative.
I was recently struck in the face by an attacker. I should have immediately run. And I didn't.
It is very fortunate he had no backup as I would have been at their mercy. I have to accept, as presented in this thread, I was foolish and my priority should have been to get away quickly.
I’m so sorry to hear that you were physically attacked Tim. Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn’t it? You had been struck, and chose to hit back. Decision making in those situations must be very instinctive, your instincts might well have been correct at that point, maybe not, but I’m glad you are here to tell the tale!
Thank you for your compassion and kindness on me. I share your feelings of me being here!! Thanks!
Yes, I hit the man, with intent to inflict trauma.
My mother tried to cheer me up: She asked me what if it was her attacked, or someone from our neighborhood.
Thank you again. You really posted this at just the right time for me.
Great Read! !!! Being a Marine that’s experienced the feelings described ranging from PTSD induced hyper vigilance ( a state where your body has taken on a flood of cortisol and adrenaline preparing for whatever lies ahead is far from something one should dismiss ….. it’s your subconscious picking up on subtle cues somethings amiss , processing that data in compressed time frame , and logically concluding it’s best to be in a physical state ready for battle . This process is a quick instantaneous reaction to perceived physical danger better known as your “ fight / flight “ instinct . We all have it as it is a survival mechanism that slows the actual chaos around us down so that we can hopefully work thru a dangerous situation without being overcome by the events unfolding at a rate faster that we can react to them ( being caught like deer in the headlights frozen unable to move ) in this respect ….a little paranoia, heightened sense of awareness, or simply listening to your gut that somethings wrong can be the difference between getting hurt or worse . Complacency ,being dismissive of cues is far more dangerous and has killed many seasoned tactical experts , soldiers cops than you can imagine. It’s easy to fool yourself into thinking because you have a weapon or take karate or whatever that you’ll also be able to navigate the rapid series of events and be in a position of advantage faster than your opponent who is already ahead of you in that curve by default having decided when and where to attack . Gunfights are won by thousandths of a second , unless your a person expert in kinetic environments able to think and react accurately and decisively in compressed time frames …… my advice is to heed your gut instinct , paranoia or fear and avoid the risk, stress and live . You can beat yourself up over it or laugh at yourself when safe at home .
“ it’s not the dark I fear , but the possibility something wanting to do me harm could be right in front of me concealed from view lying in wait and I would miss it ….
-Monsters
I have a shortened version of that quote that I have said for years.
Don't be afraid of the dark. Be afraid of what's in the dark.
LOL, that's awesome.
In my humble opinion the normalcy bias can be caused by laziness or fear of looking silly.
I am likely to think a situation is normal because I don't want to spend my energy and I have to pay attention to that. This can be dangerous when someone's else safety depends on me, like a friend saying "there is a strange car parked next to mine" and I may answer "it's probably fine". Not good.
The second situation happened a few years with a friend of mine. He was very young (around 11) when he saw a building on fire. There were two securities guards on other building and he ran there as fast as he could to warn them but they refused to believe him. They thought he was joking. It took them a while to seem a building on fire and long short story the fire destroyed the building and it had to go through renovations. Luckily no one was inside the building and the fire was caused by the irregular use of it as a deposit. Someone put a lot of inflammable material there and any source of spark or short circuit could have started the fire.
This story really marked me because I used to have classes on that building. So the idea of being trapped in a fire, possibly suffocating to death while some lazy guards lost their time wondering of they should check the building is very unpleasant to say the least
The stigmatization of being more prepared than the average person gives the label - paranoid.
Because everyone feels that their level of preparedness, based upon their estimate of risk and safety, is the most rational choice.
A lot of people have no idea what will happen when things go off the rails. There are literally people that do not understand that milk does not come from the grocery store and when the grocery store doesn't have it any more, that means that they don't have milk.
Most people will not dare to see the world as it is. For you, there is no cost i doing so, but for neurotypicals it can be enormously mentally taxing. Its just asking for depression and anxiety. People believe in normalcy because they need to.
Pre-covid, I did the same thing as you. Stocked up on food and masks.
My family kept asking me “This isn’t going to really happen, right? You’re just being precautious?”
I told them what they needed to hear, so that they can keep functioning. People avoid watching the news for the same reason. Its true that this way of thinking might lead to their demise, but that is also true of those like me, who have basically normal emotions and don’t fool themselves with the normalcy bullshit.
This is so true. I engaged with the totality of the covid news, and the terror of what it might men geopolitical, and it nearly finished me off. No shame on those who choose not to see the world as it is.
Dear Athena, you are a conscious and sentient polygraph. No, seriously. If the point is to awaken to the truth of existence and consciousness, I can think of no better and greater superpower than to be a human lie detector. The Buddha had just such a superpower. And best of all, just like him, you share your thoughts, insights and experiences with other people through your writing, which is also teaching (hey, we could be talking about the “Noble Eightfold (Psycho)Path” here!). Your hard-hitting and accurate articles not only broaden the horizons and stimulate the critical thinking of those who read them, but also, like this latest article, can be life-saving. So thank you very much. I wish all neurotypicals would read you. I wish all psychopaths were a little more like you. So, yes, thank you so much, Athena (by the way, according to wikipedia, “Athena is an ancient Greek goddess, daughter of Zeus, produced without a mother, so that she emerged full-grown from his forehead. She is associated with wisdom, warfare, and handicraft. Athena was regarded as the patron and protectress of various cities across Greece, particularly the city of Athens, from which she most likely received her name. Athena was known as Atrytone (Άτρυτώνη "the Unwearying"), Parthenos (Παρθένος "Virgin"), and Promachos (Πρόμαχος "she who fights in front").
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena
In a way all this reminded me of this cartoon by the great Gary Larson:
https://i.redd.it/sqlky35lxqo81.jpg
Ha!
First off, I am NOT risk averse.
In fact DNA testing, much to my amusement, shows that I have genetic markers as not being risk averse.
What I observe in myself is that I learned to make sort of bayesian analysis of situations and from that decide whether something is worth risking or if I should pass on it.
Neurotypicals seem to invest emotional energy into the assessments they make and if something like a "triple dog dare" or "you'll look silly/sexist/racist" is inserted into the formula then they will default to "everything is normal here" which frequently leads to disaster.
The odd thing is that normal human beings will routinely manipulate each other with exactly those mechanisms
I have seen this as well
Athena, if we are talking about world events and our responses. Do you think the US response to the Russo-Ukrainian war is reasonable or not? I am not asking for any political or military analysis, I am just asking you as a person. Obviously with the sanctions and so on, this conflict is affecting people personally.
I don't discuss politics.
So glad I found your blog, Athena. Another great read.
Thank you, Elisha
Very interesting perspective, I must admit I made the assumption you would not care about many of these scenarios due to a lack of fear from a smaller amygdala, however you are of course still aware of risks and take practical steps to mitigate those risks. Insightful.
It seems our emotions short circuit our common sense and better judgement, this is a running theme in your posts and always interesting.
Oh, and you should totally do a post on Ray from Mr Inbetween, a character analysis would be awesome.
Yes, I have to find the time to rewatch the series first
You are correct, some are mentally ill and certainly will attack you.
It must be annoying that people refuse to listen to you when you offer them good advice.
I think that people cannot detect lies or liars because they are projecting onto that person their own social assumptions. If you are able to discern that others think differently than you do in general, you are going to be more able to detect lies.
The only argument that I could find against keeping water in the car would be the exposure of the plastic to heat may leach plastic into the water making it unhealthy to drink, but that is the only thing I can come up with that is reasonable.
It’s always a fine line between being cautious and being paranoid, just as it’s a fine line between trusting and reckless. I consider myself to be a carefully kind cynic. One difficult aspect of trying to be a genuinely generous and friendly person is not wanting to alarm people with your kindness. That sounds weird but people are rightly suspicious of your motivations when you’re generous or overly friendly, because unethical and immoral people will use friendliness as a mask in order to connive and take advantage. I once legitimately scared an old woman by offering to carry a large, unwieldy box for her up a flight of stairs. We lived in the same apartment building and I was concerned about her- I didn’t want her to fall or drop her box (it was almost as big as she was) but she totally flipped out when I tried to take it from her, so I backed off. I don’t blame her for being suspicious but it really made me sad.
It’s always hard to know who to trust, when it comes to strangers. I’m wary but I also try to be careful about the conclusions I draw. Like Athena said, a lot comes down to the situation and the associated risks. Don’t take unnecessary risks and always be analytical. Better to offend someone than to get hurt. But also, if the situation isn’t threatening, it’s okay to occasionally accept the kindness of a stranger (like if there’s lots of witnesses or there’s no obvious benefit/advantage to them by accepting their help). I try to show kindness whenever I can do so without making someone feel threatened or vulnerable. It’s not easy to be kind in an unkind world.
“It’s not easy to be kind in an unkind world.” It really isn’t. Sometimes I have to ask myself if offering help is the right thing to do. A few days ago I was going in to the supermarket and there was an old man, blind, crossing the car park using his white stick. Facially, he was noticeably blind. I slowed down to make sure he crossed the slip road successfully and could find the entrance. I didn’t say anything at first. Offer assistance or not? Would I offend him by offering assistance? Would I be implying that he was unable to cope on his own? I really wasn’t sure, no one else was paying any attention at all and the entrance was busy.
I did ask in the end, I think I said something like, “Hello, it’s quite busy today, do you need any help?” He responded that he didn’t, but smiled and thanked me for offering and then a few seconds later he spoke again. “Thanks love, that was really kind of you, you have a good day now.”
I felt good, then I felt a bit sad that this old guy was on his own, without his sight and having to do his shopping.
It isn’t easy to be kind in this world, I think we can only do our best. Offer help or kindness but not be offended if it isn’t welcomed. Sometimes it really is welcomed and in some cases it might be the only kind word that person hears all day.
Quite true. My friend has the habit of saying to people that she interacts with:
"Do something nice for yourself today".
People always smile and appreciate the thought.
I like that. Caring without being too much.
She has a knack for that kind of thing