I had noticed that you are misrepresented quite often on Quora. The one common factor that I have seen is that most of them are really very prickly about their own viewpoint.
"Psychopathy is not good, and it is not bad. It simply is. There is nothing more to it. I don’t know why people get so vitriolic when it comes to explaining that, but it is vexing to me. It seems to me that it would be more beneficial to be able to look at an ex, or a parent, or a sibling, or a boss, and say, wow, that person is a d*ck. There seems to be some measure of disquiet when it comes to even considering it however. It is better in their minds that psychopaths are a dangerous and malevolent unit of creatures, and any attempt to step away from the hyperbole used to describe us results in the assumption of sympathy mining."
This paragraph is the crux of the matter. Neurotypicals (nor "low functioning, or immature individuals with high psychopathy"), never truly understand the difference between you and me. Even when I believe I understand and agree with what you write, it is sometimes difficult and I constantly have to work at it; just as you do when trying to understand our higher degree of emotion, as MC writes, no one can weigh those scales and assess..... My life was shattered by a psychopath (at least a psychopath as best as I can determine from reading what you have written, but not confirmed by diagnosis); however, after reading many and varied topics you have written about over and over, I can now --many years after the fact-- accept that person for what he was, and even though he (unknowingly) messed with my emotional being to an extreme degree, at least I understand what transpired. If either or both of us had known about psychopathy while together, I think we could have survived together. He also did not do well after we parted ways, but in far different way than the impact on me.
I think a fair amount of the issues that NTs and psychopaths face in each other is the lack of ever being in the other's shoes. Without that there is no way to ascribe appropriate context or intention behind how they are acting, what they think, and how they treat us. We can only see it through the lens we understand, and that isn't easily altered. You would have to have some example from which to draw, and frankly, with psychopathy, the only examples are extraordinarily negative. It is a difficult quandary.
Fortunately, as life goes on, we learn more about being in each other's shoes and can make more of an effort. I cringe at some of the things about others that I failed to understand or even notice when I was younger.
We're you not, in a sense, inevitably, a 'low functioning psycopath' as a child/young person? Before maturity and reflection and the insights of other people had happened along. Depending on individual temperament, that still leaves many years in which to be toxic and destructive and cause others great pain, as you have spoken about yourself. Of course neurotypicals can do, and do, utterly terrible things. But surely some of the fear of psychopaths comes from knowing that for a great many neurotypicals, the childhood lessons in empathy, and the remorse that can follow transgressions, are ONE brake on bad behaviour, and a very useful one, though by no means universal or consistent. So reflecting on those powerful inhibitive feelings, a neurotypical might well think that until maturity and introspection occur, if indeed they ever do, depending on intelligence and circumstances, that a psycopath is lacking something that is a brake, something that doesn't actually guarantee good actions, but often does help a lot, and so there is this danger period during which psychopaths may have a greater chance, on balance, of creating terrible harm and not being able to help it or even comprehend what they are doing.
Of course neither me nor anyone else can weigh those scales, and assess how much damage could be done inadvertently by psychopaths compared with how much could be done by plain rotten (or severely damaged) neurotypicals. Yes, I know, psychopaths being a tiny minority, that means far less, but I'm just considering the potential in individuals. It seems that a greater potential is there, at least while young, and that scares people.
It is hard as a neurotypical to reconcile these two conflicting phenomena- yes, emotional empathy and remorse DO make a huge difference, and yet, there is so much evil. I can only really know myself, perhaps it is different for others. Having said that, I very well know my own darkness.
The lack of emotional and mental suffering will always make psychopathy seem like something of a superpower whether you view it that way or not. Human suffering is so huge, no wonder some few people consider it unethical to bring a child into this world. When you see someone in horrendous emotional pain, you can compare it to your intense physical pains. And yet that is still not the same- psychic pain is not something bodily, or other to ones sense of self, where you can say, it hurts, but this isn't ME. For mental pains it's the whole self being torn apart, mechanical analogies are as good as any, breakdown. There are no words, but I guess others have tried also to describe it to you! Not to be....
Anyway, I'm glad you did this clarifying piece. I shared this substack with a friend and she was blown away. One chip at a time......
Oh yes, I was most definitely a low-functioning psychopath as a child. I was a little brat with no sense of boundaries, cognitive empathy, or ability to see past myself. I don't think that absolves me of personal responsibility for my actions, however.
It is far too easy to say, "Well, I was a psychopath", or, "Well, I was young", and have that stand as an explanation for what I did. In reality, I did what I wanted to do. I chose what I did, and giving me an excuse to hide behind isn't doing me any favors, nor does it do other people any favors either. There were things that were done with me that made a difference in how I interacted with the world, but the biggest favor my parents did for me was to teach me about responsibility and personal ownership.
I must state, a lot of young neurotypicals that I have been familiar with in my years were fairly toxic in their own right as well, and they didn't have to be damaged to be so. They simply had underdeveloped brains and liked to party a bit. When people are young, they're dumb. It's kind of the law of nature. Some of these young dumb neurotypicals land themselves with life sentences because they had no ability to predict the consequences of their actions, and didn't have the ability to empathize with other people. It doesn't make them dramatically different than psychopaths at that age in some regards. In others, psychopaths are indeed fairly different.
This is an area where my cognitive empathy fails to a degree. I have of course heard about human suffering, and observed it as well, but it is intangible to me. It is something that I can grasp the concept of, but not the experience of. I understand that limitation and consider it frequently. It interests me, and it is something that I intend to study more deeply on.
Hmmm, I'm not sure how much blame I would put on a child without empathy or any negative emotions, at least when they are very young, since as you say, it can be hard enough for neurotypicals not to be toxic at that age. Only tou can know if you could feasibly have done bettet. It's interesting to ponder, anyway, to what extent people are responsible in all sorts of circumstances.
I did not know until you wrote about it that brains are not mature until 25. So much then made sense. I was a fairly sensible person by nature and I have memories of really thinking things through in terms of risk assessment as a young person, and making decisions that now look completely stupid.
It's hard to say really. I am looking back with hindsight, and you know what they say about that. However, I think that it is imperative that we treat all children as though they have agency and the ability to learn responsibility. In fact, I think that it is necessary for their survival. As such, what I did, I chose to do. I learned better tools and became a better-behaved individual, but those tools had to be presented to me in a way that I could understand them, and be willing to do so. had my parents just shrugged and said, "she's unreachable", then where would I be I wonder.
One of the things I think causes some confusion is that I believe the differences in sex and personality as well I’ve notice at baseline the sexes have certain attributes well I guess that’s common knowledge but Ive noticed those of us that are askew from the norm bpd in particular that that comes into play men tend to have more issues with anger and tend to be antisocial women tend to be more outwardly emotional time mobs socially something along those lines it’s hard to categorize let’s say a mental illness across all lines when their are definitely differences in sex etc variables people don’t pick up on what do you think?
I think that tend to be the case, yes. I have noticed differences between male and female psychopaths. Males may tend to be more aggressive, and I suspect that this is due to testosterone.
Right more aggressive more prone to violence sexual deviance etc that’s where female psychopaths such as yourself get the bad wrap and where male bpd guys like me aren’t seen as emotionally damaged as are our female counterparts but violent evil monsters when it’s not the case when we cannot help what we do when the ol amygdala takes over empathy is gone at that point there is not reasoning but because I’m a man I default to violent rage instead of a mess of tears and crying
There isn't any evidence that psychopaths have more of an inclination towards sexual violence. The reason people make this claim is due to the fact that someone committing sexual violence of any kind would qualify for a diagnosis of ASPD, which is then conflated with psychopathy.
I was more commenting on the likelihood of males being more prone than females in that likelyhood Athena not psychopaths in general take the psychopathic aspect out of it just male vs female
Makes sense, but there is a fair amount of denial of the sexual deviations that females participate in. It is almost as though people are in a state of denial.
It’s definitely not as front and center from my admittedly narrow point of view lol I’m not denying it exists I’ve met some pretty devious females just seems there aren’t as many on the grand scale and I dare not google the words sexual deviance trying to find out I’ll wait for your piece on finding information first hahahahah sorry for beating this dead horse I’m bored
Yes, one of those situations where we have to act as if something is the case (having agency), even if it isn't completely true. Also age is a factor, as parents who do not have realistic ideas of child development can expect too much understanding and control at too young an age.
I went mad for the wonderfully cinematic video for Yuve Yuve Yu, such an exhilarating song, and reminded me of my travels there and hearing throat singing in person. The lyrics though, maybe a bit unpalatable to outsiders now that conquering emperors have gone out of fashion!
PS not the place but I have no presence on Quora. Thanks for sharing the Hu plus Lizzy, I already had a soft spot for th Hu, and was lucky enough to hear throat singing on travels through central Asia, life changing was, and this is great and umexpected. But for the life of me I can't imagine throat singing divorced from emotion, it makes me weep, and connect across geo and cultural boundaries. Glad you like it!
I came across their music when I first heard, "Wolf Totem", which they later added English words to like they did with, "Women's Song," when Lzzy guested on the track. It was really impressive, and I very much liked the blending of the musical styles. Very pleasant to listen to.
Unfortunately it seems that I won’t be able to view the answer linked about psychopaths not ever abusing people because apparently Quora has deleted the question.
I suppose a silver lining here would be Quora removing a question that contains false information. That annoyance is now absent, and there is somewhat less misinformation plaguing the genuine efforts of some to educate the world.
In this case the only reason that it was removed is due to my request. Quora has a policy that you can request any question with your name in it to be removed. I tend to make this request of almost all questions directed to me at this point, as many of them are repetitive, or, like this one, not asked in good faith.
I had noticed that you are misrepresented quite often on Quora. The one common factor that I have seen is that most of them are really very prickly about their own viewpoint.
I have noticed that myself
"Psychopathy is not good, and it is not bad. It simply is. There is nothing more to it. I don’t know why people get so vitriolic when it comes to explaining that, but it is vexing to me. It seems to me that it would be more beneficial to be able to look at an ex, or a parent, or a sibling, or a boss, and say, wow, that person is a d*ck. There seems to be some measure of disquiet when it comes to even considering it however. It is better in their minds that psychopaths are a dangerous and malevolent unit of creatures, and any attempt to step away from the hyperbole used to describe us results in the assumption of sympathy mining."
This paragraph is the crux of the matter. Neurotypicals (nor "low functioning, or immature individuals with high psychopathy"), never truly understand the difference between you and me. Even when I believe I understand and agree with what you write, it is sometimes difficult and I constantly have to work at it; just as you do when trying to understand our higher degree of emotion, as MC writes, no one can weigh those scales and assess..... My life was shattered by a psychopath (at least a psychopath as best as I can determine from reading what you have written, but not confirmed by diagnosis); however, after reading many and varied topics you have written about over and over, I can now --many years after the fact-- accept that person for what he was, and even though he (unknowingly) messed with my emotional being to an extreme degree, at least I understand what transpired. If either or both of us had known about psychopathy while together, I think we could have survived together. He also did not do well after we parted ways, but in far different way than the impact on me.
I think a fair amount of the issues that NTs and psychopaths face in each other is the lack of ever being in the other's shoes. Without that there is no way to ascribe appropriate context or intention behind how they are acting, what they think, and how they treat us. We can only see it through the lens we understand, and that isn't easily altered. You would have to have some example from which to draw, and frankly, with psychopathy, the only examples are extraordinarily negative. It is a difficult quandary.
Fortunately, as life goes on, we learn more about being in each other's shoes and can make more of an effort. I cringe at some of the things about others that I failed to understand or even notice when I was younger.
We're you not, in a sense, inevitably, a 'low functioning psycopath' as a child/young person? Before maturity and reflection and the insights of other people had happened along. Depending on individual temperament, that still leaves many years in which to be toxic and destructive and cause others great pain, as you have spoken about yourself. Of course neurotypicals can do, and do, utterly terrible things. But surely some of the fear of psychopaths comes from knowing that for a great many neurotypicals, the childhood lessons in empathy, and the remorse that can follow transgressions, are ONE brake on bad behaviour, and a very useful one, though by no means universal or consistent. So reflecting on those powerful inhibitive feelings, a neurotypical might well think that until maturity and introspection occur, if indeed they ever do, depending on intelligence and circumstances, that a psycopath is lacking something that is a brake, something that doesn't actually guarantee good actions, but often does help a lot, and so there is this danger period during which psychopaths may have a greater chance, on balance, of creating terrible harm and not being able to help it or even comprehend what they are doing.
Of course neither me nor anyone else can weigh those scales, and assess how much damage could be done inadvertently by psychopaths compared with how much could be done by plain rotten (or severely damaged) neurotypicals. Yes, I know, psychopaths being a tiny minority, that means far less, but I'm just considering the potential in individuals. It seems that a greater potential is there, at least while young, and that scares people.
It is hard as a neurotypical to reconcile these two conflicting phenomena- yes, emotional empathy and remorse DO make a huge difference, and yet, there is so much evil. I can only really know myself, perhaps it is different for others. Having said that, I very well know my own darkness.
The lack of emotional and mental suffering will always make psychopathy seem like something of a superpower whether you view it that way or not. Human suffering is so huge, no wonder some few people consider it unethical to bring a child into this world. When you see someone in horrendous emotional pain, you can compare it to your intense physical pains. And yet that is still not the same- psychic pain is not something bodily, or other to ones sense of self, where you can say, it hurts, but this isn't ME. For mental pains it's the whole self being torn apart, mechanical analogies are as good as any, breakdown. There are no words, but I guess others have tried also to describe it to you! Not to be....
Anyway, I'm glad you did this clarifying piece. I shared this substack with a friend and she was blown away. One chip at a time......
Oh yes, I was most definitely a low-functioning psychopath as a child. I was a little brat with no sense of boundaries, cognitive empathy, or ability to see past myself. I don't think that absolves me of personal responsibility for my actions, however.
It is far too easy to say, "Well, I was a psychopath", or, "Well, I was young", and have that stand as an explanation for what I did. In reality, I did what I wanted to do. I chose what I did, and giving me an excuse to hide behind isn't doing me any favors, nor does it do other people any favors either. There were things that were done with me that made a difference in how I interacted with the world, but the biggest favor my parents did for me was to teach me about responsibility and personal ownership.
I must state, a lot of young neurotypicals that I have been familiar with in my years were fairly toxic in their own right as well, and they didn't have to be damaged to be so. They simply had underdeveloped brains and liked to party a bit. When people are young, they're dumb. It's kind of the law of nature. Some of these young dumb neurotypicals land themselves with life sentences because they had no ability to predict the consequences of their actions, and didn't have the ability to empathize with other people. It doesn't make them dramatically different than psychopaths at that age in some regards. In others, psychopaths are indeed fairly different.
This is an area where my cognitive empathy fails to a degree. I have of course heard about human suffering, and observed it as well, but it is intangible to me. It is something that I can grasp the concept of, but not the experience of. I understand that limitation and consider it frequently. It interests me, and it is something that I intend to study more deeply on.
Hmmm, I'm not sure how much blame I would put on a child without empathy or any negative emotions, at least when they are very young, since as you say, it can be hard enough for neurotypicals not to be toxic at that age. Only tou can know if you could feasibly have done bettet. It's interesting to ponder, anyway, to what extent people are responsible in all sorts of circumstances.
I did not know until you wrote about it that brains are not mature until 25. So much then made sense. I was a fairly sensible person by nature and I have memories of really thinking things through in terms of risk assessment as a young person, and making decisions that now look completely stupid.
It's hard to say really. I am looking back with hindsight, and you know what they say about that. However, I think that it is imperative that we treat all children as though they have agency and the ability to learn responsibility. In fact, I think that it is necessary for their survival. As such, what I did, I chose to do. I learned better tools and became a better-behaved individual, but those tools had to be presented to me in a way that I could understand them, and be willing to do so. had my parents just shrugged and said, "she's unreachable", then where would I be I wonder.
One of the things I think causes some confusion is that I believe the differences in sex and personality as well I’ve notice at baseline the sexes have certain attributes well I guess that’s common knowledge but Ive noticed those of us that are askew from the norm bpd in particular that that comes into play men tend to have more issues with anger and tend to be antisocial women tend to be more outwardly emotional time mobs socially something along those lines it’s hard to categorize let’s say a mental illness across all lines when their are definitely differences in sex etc variables people don’t pick up on what do you think?
I think that tend to be the case, yes. I have noticed differences between male and female psychopaths. Males may tend to be more aggressive, and I suspect that this is due to testosterone.
Right more aggressive more prone to violence sexual deviance etc that’s where female psychopaths such as yourself get the bad wrap and where male bpd guys like me aren’t seen as emotionally damaged as are our female counterparts but violent evil monsters when it’s not the case when we cannot help what we do when the ol amygdala takes over empathy is gone at that point there is not reasoning but because I’m a man I default to violent rage instead of a mess of tears and crying
There isn't any evidence that psychopaths have more of an inclination towards sexual violence. The reason people make this claim is due to the fact that someone committing sexual violence of any kind would qualify for a diagnosis of ASPD, which is then conflated with psychopathy.
I was more commenting on the likelihood of males being more prone than females in that likelyhood Athena not psychopaths in general take the psychopathic aspect out of it just male vs female
The point I was trying to make was sex has its own attributes and it applies
Makes sense, but there is a fair amount of denial of the sexual deviations that females participate in. It is almost as though people are in a state of denial.
It’s definitely not as front and center from my admittedly narrow point of view lol I’m not denying it exists I’ve met some pretty devious females just seems there aren’t as many on the grand scale and I dare not google the words sexual deviance trying to find out I’ll wait for your piece on finding information first hahahahah sorry for beating this dead horse I’m bored
It’s frustrating I can’t explain it well but I think you understand
Yes, one of those situations where we have to act as if something is the case (having agency), even if it isn't completely true. Also age is a factor, as parents who do not have realistic ideas of child development can expect too much understanding and control at too young an age.
I went mad for the wonderfully cinematic video for Yuve Yuve Yu, such an exhilarating song, and reminded me of my travels there and hearing throat singing in person. The lyrics though, maybe a bit unpalatable to outsiders now that conquering emperors have gone out of fashion!
Their loss.
!,
PS not the place but I have no presence on Quora. Thanks for sharing the Hu plus Lizzy, I already had a soft spot for th Hu, and was lucky enough to hear throat singing on travels through central Asia, life changing was, and this is great and umexpected. But for the life of me I can't imagine throat singing divorced from emotion, it makes me weep, and connect across geo and cultural boundaries. Glad you like it!
I came across their music when I first heard, "Wolf Totem", which they later added English words to like they did with, "Women's Song," when Lzzy guested on the track. It was really impressive, and I very much liked the blending of the musical styles. Very pleasant to listen to.
I'm glad you like it too
Unfortunately it seems that I won’t be able to view the answer linked about psychopaths not ever abusing people because apparently Quora has deleted the question.
I suppose a silver lining here would be Quora removing a question that contains false information. That annoyance is now absent, and there is somewhat less misinformation plaguing the genuine efforts of some to educate the world.
In this case the only reason that it was removed is due to my request. Quora has a policy that you can request any question with your name in it to be removed. I tend to make this request of almost all questions directed to me at this point, as many of them are repetitive, or, like this one, not asked in good faith.