Let me start by saying that I find Paul Bernardo to be a gigantic piece of garbage. In no way does my addressing this interview in a post mean that I have an interest in defending him. Instead, I am simply looking at how investigators dealt with him and the downfalls that I see in their behavior in terms of making progress.
Based on his PCL-R score, Bernardo qualifies as psychopathic. If you have read me for more than five minutes then you know that I have little regard for the PCL-R and its ability to identify anything other than criminals in prison. In other words, not effective for much of anything. However, for this post, I will simply take it for granted that he is psychopathic, and that being the case, how investigators seem like they are more interested in shooting themselves in the foot than making real progress with him.
The interview in question can be found here:
It’s half an hour long, and I don’t expect people to watch the whole thing. So far I have yet to see anything that says Bernardo isn’t a psychopath, and I understand that he rated on the PCL-R at 35/40. However, his wifey poo rated a 5/40 yet she drugged, and offered up her virgin sister for her husband for the both of them to rape and then helped him murder her and dispose of her body… yeah… uh-huh. She’s totally a five… Yup, I buy that. Some of the details of the crime state:
From the beginning of their relationship, Karla noticed that Bernardo had taken a particular liking to Tammy. He would often pay special attention to her, and even went so far as to have his girlfriend pretend to be her sister during sex. In September 1990, Karla agreed to allow Paul to have sex with Tammy. She obtained a bottle of Halothane (a liquid general anesthetic) from the veterinary clinic where she worked, which would later be used to sedate Tammy while the two raped her. On December 24, 1990, Tammy was drugged with a combination of Halcion and alcohol, passing out in the family room in the basement of the Homolka house. Tammy's parents and sister Lori were upstairs asleep at the time. They filmed the entire rape, taking turns holding the camera while using the Halothane to keep Tammy unconscious.
Three weeks after Tammy Homolka's death, Karla and Bernardo filmed a video called "The Fireside Chat" within the Homolka residence. The video was eventually viewed as court evidence. It started in the basement recreation room and at some point the filming moved into Tammy's bedroom. While they were in the recreation room, Karla admitted to Bernardo that she enjoyed Bernardo's rape of Tammy. She also said in the video that she would like to leave a rose at Tammy's grave site. When they were in Tammy's bedroom, Karla dressed up in Tammy's clothing as well as acting like her sister. They had sex on Tammy's bed.
So yeah… giant piece of… well, you know…
From there, you know the story, they got caught and because they were caught, Bernardo has spent a fair amount of time getting interviewed about other crimes that he was involved in, of which there were several, including additional murders. In the interview that we are discussing today, they are here to obtain some information regarding the locations of possible remains and previous crimes.
Anyway, when I watched the interview it was obvious that yes, he is manipulative, but they could have made significant ground with him if they had given him a bit more respect. Does he deserve respect? No, not particularly, but you have to play a longer game here. They want him to give him information which he is doing, and has done in the past. They repeatedly question him about certain things. He keeps stating that he has been honest with them thus far, and they acknowledge that he has, but keep hammering on credibility.
This is not going to win them any points in his mind. He has years to burn and they want to bring closure to families. They seriously need to learn that questioning his honesty when they have been able to show that so far he has been straight with them is a very poor strategy. If you want him to actually talk to you, give him the credit where it’s due.
Yes, he’s a murderer. Yes, he’s done horrific things. However, running headlong into the wall and not following up on information that he gives you and then calling his credibility into question isn’t going to result in a good interview. It’s an irritating interview for me to watch. I can immediately see their problem, and they repeat it again and again. He gets annoyed, and nothing gets done. It’s bad form.
In this case, at least I could have said, you’re being idiots. Grant him the decency of his honesty when talking about the horrors that he’s committed, and you’ll get somewhere. Right now you are trying to get blood out of a rock and it’s a waste of time. You’re actually disrespecting him and he’s not really digging it.
I think that people get caught up in the idea of people far more than they actually understand the person themselves. The separation between psychopaths and neurotypicals can be pretty broad, but there are simply fundamental things that psychopaths will respond to. Straightforwardness, credit where it’s due, calling BS when you see it, that sort of thing will get you miles farther with a psychopath than what these interviewers do.
Had they done it my way, they could have been there for ten minutes and had answers. However, they were there thirty, and wasted everyone’s time. In the end, there is no progress whatsoever because they can’t get out of their own way.
Mind you, I actually understand why NTs interviewing us is so counterproductive as well. To be frank it’s the emotions. What this man did is upsetting, and it is even more upsetting to someone when they realize that he doesn’t feel bad about his crimes. I get it, I do, but those emotions are working against them in this circumstance.
I can look at what Bernardo did and say, dude, not cool. WTF, but still talk to him. I am not going to look at crime scene photos and look at him and have the unimaginable fear or feeling of disgust that most NTs will. I know what he did, I think that he made a lot of bad choices. His crimes are deplorable. I can still be in the room with the guy without something about him making me uncomfortable.
When I have spoken to people that have interviewed psychopaths they often say that they are really bothered by them. So it makes sense that they have problems successfully interviewing one and getting useful information. There are better ways, and the biggest issue is to recognize the psychopath’s currency. With Bernardo, he seems resigned. He’s caught. He’s got no ego about what he did, and no shame about it either. He will tell you what you want to know, if you know how to ask the questions.
It doesn’t surprise me that the police abjectly failed in dealing with him. This is a cognitive understanding thing, not a lead-with-your-emotions thing. You have to be willing to set aside the sense of internal strife that his actions bring about and think of him in the same way you would think of anyone else. You can’t treat him like he is the worst thing ever if you want useful information. You aren’t there to settle how you feel about Paul Bernardo, you’re there because there are families searching for answers. Without prioritizing that you are doing a great disservice to the people you are meant to be helping.
It’s true that dealing with psychopaths is different than dealing with normative humans, but treating that person like a stereotypical psychopath, meaning you assume everything that they say is a lie, then why are you there? If nothing that he says is going to make any difference then what is the point? You are defeating yourself before you even walk into the room which seems to be a massive problem if you are seeking answers.
I get it, if he lies to you, and you go dig up some random hillside looking for a victim’s body that was never there, to begin with, and that costs a lot of money, then you are going to deal with him through the veil of skepticism. However, the cops themselves keep agreeing that he has so far told the truth. If that’s the case, you have to be less dickish to him if you want to get anywhere. It’s disappointing to think that incompetence is why families are still not able to lay their loved ones to rest.
The interrogators failed at Manipulation 101.
I recall watching a documentary about the team that worked on Sadaam Hussein and something that struck me at the end was the lead agent said that Sadaam told him that if he got of on the charges he wanted them, the FBI team, to come work for him. The agent claimed to have told Hussein that if he could get off they would.
They didn't tolerate disrespect nor did they disrespect. That's all that would have been necessary to get anything the may have needed from Paul Bernardo
I watched the video and read the youtube comments.
The youtube comments were completely non sensical as far as my interpretation of this interview.
What it seemed to me to go was like this:
Male interviewer: [Open body language, clearly sees self as the kind of top dog] I am the lead investigator in this case [I am the top dog, open hand movement as though offering something to interviewee, perhaps from a place of benevolence].
(About four minutes). Interviewee: Brings up legitimate point. Previous investigation was flawed for specific reason. Interviewee gave information. Investigators were then too incompetant to adequately follow up and rather than returning to interviewee for clarification. They relayed to the press that interviewee is "psychopathic liar". Therefore on what basis can we be sure this will not happen again? (There is more to his completely legitimate concerns but for brevity we'll leave it at that).
Interviewers. Plural: Ongoing waffle. No direct answer. Those other investigators are not the same people as us. The equivalent to when you phone the energy company and ask a question and they say "I'm sorry that last staff member completely ignored your call (and you know that they DEFINITELY are genuinely sorry), didn't answer your query or call you back, but I am someone else, I will handle this now. --> And you know EXACTLY the same thing is going to happen.
At eleven minutes eighteen seconds, to cap it off. Male interviewer. [Shoulders locked, body is not flowing, "hedgehog pose" trying to make himself smaller to push off the lie. Not facing the interviewee] Let's just handle this first and then we'll address your other concerns... OK, yeah, I completely believe that.
As the interviewee I am now going to talk with you naturally because you have addressed my legitimate concerns so satisfactorily. I have one hundred percent faith my previous billing will be immediately rectified due to your clear efficiency.
I have more to say here about how I have seen gangs of neurotypicals subtly push all the "bad behaviour" to the narcissist. Like an actual narcissist but not the bad guy in relation to groups of neurotypicals. But I see this as a pretty open and shut case.
How can a single psychopath stand against a band of neurotypicals? In Rwanda, during the slaughter. The mainstream population after their nightly killing spree used to laugh, dance and drink at night. Since it is the majority it is by definition the neurotypicals.