I recall watching a documentary about the team that worked on Sadaam Hussein and something that struck me at the end was the lead agent said that Sadaam told him that if he got of on the charges he wanted them, the FBI team, to come work for him. The agent claimed to have told Hussein that if he could get off they would.
They didn't tolerate disrespect nor did they disrespect. That's all that would have been necessary to get anything the may have needed from Paul Bernardo
I watched the video and read the youtube comments.
The youtube comments were completely non sensical as far as my interpretation of this interview.
What it seemed to me to go was like this:
Male interviewer: [Open body language, clearly sees self as the kind of top dog] I am the lead investigator in this case [I am the top dog, open hand movement as though offering something to interviewee, perhaps from a place of benevolence].
(About four minutes). Interviewee: Brings up legitimate point. Previous investigation was flawed for specific reason. Interviewee gave information. Investigators were then too incompetant to adequately follow up and rather than returning to interviewee for clarification. They relayed to the press that interviewee is "psychopathic liar". Therefore on what basis can we be sure this will not happen again? (There is more to his completely legitimate concerns but for brevity we'll leave it at that).
Interviewers. Plural: Ongoing waffle. No direct answer. Those other investigators are not the same people as us. The equivalent to when you phone the energy company and ask a question and they say "I'm sorry that last staff member completely ignored your call (and you know that they DEFINITELY are genuinely sorry), didn't answer your query or call you back, but I am someone else, I will handle this now. --> And you know EXACTLY the same thing is going to happen.
At eleven minutes eighteen seconds, to cap it off. Male interviewer. [Shoulders locked, body is not flowing, "hedgehog pose" trying to make himself smaller to push off the lie. Not facing the interviewee] Let's just handle this first and then we'll address your other concerns... OK, yeah, I completely believe that.
As the interviewee I am now going to talk with you naturally because you have addressed my legitimate concerns so satisfactorily. I have one hundred percent faith my previous billing will be immediately rectified due to your clear efficiency.
I have more to say here about how I have seen gangs of neurotypicals subtly push all the "bad behaviour" to the narcissist. Like an actual narcissist but not the bad guy in relation to groups of neurotypicals. But I see this as a pretty open and shut case.
How can a single psychopath stand against a band of neurotypicals? In Rwanda, during the slaughter. The mainstream population after their nightly killing spree used to laugh, dance and drink at night. Since it is the majority it is by definition the neurotypicals.
Do you think he actually meets the criteria for psychopathy, Athena? I’ve read about him before and from my understanding he had quite the dysfunctional upbringing as his mother was a mentally ill agoraphobic and his father was a sexual predator who abused his mother older sister in front of him.
While I don’t doubt that sort of upbringing who cause a child to have little regard for the law or morality, I notice studies of him reference the MacDonald Triad which I recall you going into detail of why it’s not accurate and has been debunked.
Bernardo had sadistic fantasies from a young age. I didn’t think psychopaths had the emotional empathy required to take pleasure from others’ suffering, but correct me if I’m wrong since I’m certainly no expert.
I don't know enough about Bernardo to know. Serial killers don't particularly interest me, and often when they are dug into I see many reasons to disqualify them from psychopathy. However, I haven't done the work with Bernardo, and even if he isn't, I don't think that I am misreading the situation. I think it would still result in a disrespect/refusal to cooperate situation.
Very interesting read! It makes sense, how you read Bernardo. Deplorable though he is, he’d already lost the ‘game’ so to speak so controlling the narrative was really all he had left. They should have tried to accommodate him more for the sake of tying up all the loose ends and finding the victims’ remains so they could be returned to their families.
I was familiar with this case, except that I had read that Tammy was accidentally overdosed and consequently, not raped, as her face went blue, etc.
It bothers me that Karla got off and is living free somewhere with her kids. The deal they made with her before realising her level of involvement was another giant stuff up.
It sounds like psychopaths would make excellent interviewers, of anyone. Too bad that there's so few of you.
I agree. Those videos showed her direct and complete involvement, but because she knew how to cry and manipulate, she got off and went free very quickly.
This is something I still struggle to understand about NT's. I avoid invalidating emotions just because I feel things differently from them. However there are situations that are so obviously counterproductive if one lets the emotion get the better of themselves. Those interviewers know they're dealing with a "psychopath", and still they decide (conscious or unconsciously) approach the situation with the emotional lens, leading them to nowhere.
They didn't decide to do it like that. The emotions just happen to them and mostly rule their behavior without the NTs being even aware of it most of the time. I'm sure they were steeling themselves before the interview and trying to be in a calm and rational frame of mind. No one thought, "You know what? I'm going to let my emotions cloud my judgement and tank the interview!" :)
Honestly for me, it felt a situation where they were kinda stuck because the things he asked them to make him more amiable towards them were things the they really couldn’t do anything about outside of lying to him that they would do something. First the news things yea no, the Canadians police couldn’t stop those news outlets from printing anything they wanted cause of the Canadian Charter so unless they were able to appeal the news outlets “better natures” and convince them that they really needed to stop printing or at the very least hold off for a while what they were printing in order for Paul to be more likely to disclose information for the families then they were kinda sunk in that area. The notation in his file, well the detective admitted that he didn’t have access to the file that Paul mentioned but I guess he could have bent someone’s arm to get it removed especially if it was a police file, though if it was a medical file then not really sure if he would been able to do something other than ask the professional that wrote it to remove the notation. The Polygraph test, yea the detective definitely could have been like in this area we definitely trust you more than her especially because she keeps refusing our requests for a polygraph(a lie but he doesn’t know that and if they are good enough to convince him, brownie points but if not oooph well we tried🤣😅). The other charges that he admitted to, well that kinda be baffles me cause in the states, if you admit to an open crime, they are like thanks for making our lives easier, here’s a cell just for you just ignore that guy in the corner that’s just Bob the cleaner, he’s harmless…. but yea it’s kinda surprising to me that even with his confession they didn’t have enough to convict on the charges especially if the crimes were similar in nature or had the same M.O. as his other ones.
I find it fascinating that you could be in a room and have a conversation with a person who has done these crimes and not be uncomfortable. I think there could be so much potential for advancement of society in studying and embracing how that works in all manner of human interactions. Personally the mere thought of this man's existence sends chills down my spine. If he were in my presence I would instantly go into fight-or-flight mode.
I was thinking that. And also anyone else who has to work with these people, such as justice dept, court officials, psychiatrists, etc.
I remember having to listen to some audio recordings of 911 calls when I once applied to be a dispatcher. They were chilling, and they use that to filter out people with too much a response.
The police officers in this interview are the kind of people the public service produces so that the real bad guys in power, are not in danger. As an example it recently came out that the "journalist" who apparently "debunked" pizzagate, has been arrested for raping toddlers.
What does it matter to this public sector employee if his interview style does not produce results? He gets paid either way, because his wage is set through the states initiation of force.
There are other groups that are more able to properly interrogate. As an example the recent movie 'The Sound of Freedom'. I do not know if this was discussed in the movie but the way those guys are interviewed, literally paedophiles. Is to get them completely on side by charm. For instance it's things like: "Yeah, we don't have sex with children because we live in a civilised society, but sometimes, when a guy gets home and he's had a real hard day, and his fourteen year old daughter is dressed..." etc. etc. Making their behaviour seem absolutely reasonable until the point where they are either arrested or taken out the back and shot.
This is because it is clandestined branches of the military that does this that does not have so much unproductive empathy.
If the police were private sector there would not be the option for unproductive empathy because interviewers like this that got no results would be fired.
Incentive structures, both monetary and social, are very interesting things. I have thankfully no personal experience with any of the groups being discussed here. I do wonder if the incentive structure of clandestine organizations is different from, or better than, that of the police, though. Presumably, there would be even less oversight in organizations that were better shielded from the public eye.
Her direct and enthusiastic involvement. The PCL-R might be a garbage checklist, but for her to rate a five on it means that the person that administered it was heavily weighing it in her favor. Likely because she lied and cried about how mean Paul was to her.
In my opinion she was manipulative enough to play the role of poor, scared housewife who assisted her husband out of fear and successfully deceived them. There are some people who still have trouble believing women are capable of the kind of cold, brutal cruelty that Homolka displayed. There were even more back then. She probably leaned into that because until the tapes were revealed it was her word against Bernardo’s.
I am here because I admire Athena and her writing is excellent. This particular topic just was not up my alley. Most all of her post I agree with and I look forward to them. I am interested in her posts about non-criminal psychopathic mind.
The interrogators failed at Manipulation 101.
I recall watching a documentary about the team that worked on Sadaam Hussein and something that struck me at the end was the lead agent said that Sadaam told him that if he got of on the charges he wanted them, the FBI team, to come work for him. The agent claimed to have told Hussein that if he could get off they would.
They didn't tolerate disrespect nor did they disrespect. That's all that would have been necessary to get anything the may have needed from Paul Bernardo
I watched the video and read the youtube comments.
The youtube comments were completely non sensical as far as my interpretation of this interview.
What it seemed to me to go was like this:
Male interviewer: [Open body language, clearly sees self as the kind of top dog] I am the lead investigator in this case [I am the top dog, open hand movement as though offering something to interviewee, perhaps from a place of benevolence].
(About four minutes). Interviewee: Brings up legitimate point. Previous investigation was flawed for specific reason. Interviewee gave information. Investigators were then too incompetant to adequately follow up and rather than returning to interviewee for clarification. They relayed to the press that interviewee is "psychopathic liar". Therefore on what basis can we be sure this will not happen again? (There is more to his completely legitimate concerns but for brevity we'll leave it at that).
Interviewers. Plural: Ongoing waffle. No direct answer. Those other investigators are not the same people as us. The equivalent to when you phone the energy company and ask a question and they say "I'm sorry that last staff member completely ignored your call (and you know that they DEFINITELY are genuinely sorry), didn't answer your query or call you back, but I am someone else, I will handle this now. --> And you know EXACTLY the same thing is going to happen.
At eleven minutes eighteen seconds, to cap it off. Male interviewer. [Shoulders locked, body is not flowing, "hedgehog pose" trying to make himself smaller to push off the lie. Not facing the interviewee] Let's just handle this first and then we'll address your other concerns... OK, yeah, I completely believe that.
As the interviewee I am now going to talk with you naturally because you have addressed my legitimate concerns so satisfactorily. I have one hundred percent faith my previous billing will be immediately rectified due to your clear efficiency.
I have more to say here about how I have seen gangs of neurotypicals subtly push all the "bad behaviour" to the narcissist. Like an actual narcissist but not the bad guy in relation to groups of neurotypicals. But I see this as a pretty open and shut case.
How can a single psychopath stand against a band of neurotypicals? In Rwanda, during the slaughter. The mainstream population after their nightly killing spree used to laugh, dance and drink at night. Since it is the majority it is by definition the neurotypicals.
Indeed, but not a truth that many people are interested in hearing or considering.
Do you think he actually meets the criteria for psychopathy, Athena? I’ve read about him before and from my understanding he had quite the dysfunctional upbringing as his mother was a mentally ill agoraphobic and his father was a sexual predator who abused his mother older sister in front of him.
While I don’t doubt that sort of upbringing who cause a child to have little regard for the law or morality, I notice studies of him reference the MacDonald Triad which I recall you going into detail of why it’s not accurate and has been debunked.
Bernardo had sadistic fantasies from a young age. I didn’t think psychopaths had the emotional empathy required to take pleasure from others’ suffering, but correct me if I’m wrong since I’m certainly no expert.
I don't know enough about Bernardo to know. Serial killers don't particularly interest me, and often when they are dug into I see many reasons to disqualify them from psychopathy. However, I haven't done the work with Bernardo, and even if he isn't, I don't think that I am misreading the situation. I think it would still result in a disrespect/refusal to cooperate situation.
Very interesting read! It makes sense, how you read Bernardo. Deplorable though he is, he’d already lost the ‘game’ so to speak so controlling the narrative was really all he had left. They should have tried to accommodate him more for the sake of tying up all the loose ends and finding the victims’ remains so they could be returned to their families.
I was familiar with this case, except that I had read that Tammy was accidentally overdosed and consequently, not raped, as her face went blue, etc.
It bothers me that Karla got off and is living free somewhere with her kids. The deal they made with her before realising her level of involvement was another giant stuff up.
It sounds like psychopaths would make excellent interviewers, of anyone. Too bad that there's so few of you.
I agree. Those videos showed her direct and complete involvement, but because she knew how to cry and manipulate, she got off and went free very quickly.
Yeah, maybe the should have polygraphed her then...
Now who was it that suggested that?
Maybe Karla has been the smarter psychopath in this case. She played her role well.
Very possible
This is something I still struggle to understand about NT's. I avoid invalidating emotions just because I feel things differently from them. However there are situations that are so obviously counterproductive if one lets the emotion get the better of themselves. Those interviewers know they're dealing with a "psychopath", and still they decide (conscious or unconsciously) approach the situation with the emotional lens, leading them to nowhere.
Indeed, I agree. It is rather disappointing.
They didn't decide to do it like that. The emotions just happen to them and mostly rule their behavior without the NTs being even aware of it most of the time. I'm sure they were steeling themselves before the interview and trying to be in a calm and rational frame of mind. No one thought, "You know what? I'm going to let my emotions cloud my judgement and tank the interview!" :)
yeah, that's why I imagine it happens unconsciously as well.
It's always the emotions which interfere. Gonna watch the entire video.
Stay tuned.
Eight minutes in to video. Mr. Bernardo is making complete sense in regards to his requests for clarification. LEO is fumbling badly.
Indeed, rather disappointing, isn't it
Honestly for me, it felt a situation where they were kinda stuck because the things he asked them to make him more amiable towards them were things the they really couldn’t do anything about outside of lying to him that they would do something. First the news things yea no, the Canadians police couldn’t stop those news outlets from printing anything they wanted cause of the Canadian Charter so unless they were able to appeal the news outlets “better natures” and convince them that they really needed to stop printing or at the very least hold off for a while what they were printing in order for Paul to be more likely to disclose information for the families then they were kinda sunk in that area. The notation in his file, well the detective admitted that he didn’t have access to the file that Paul mentioned but I guess he could have bent someone’s arm to get it removed especially if it was a police file, though if it was a medical file then not really sure if he would been able to do something other than ask the professional that wrote it to remove the notation. The Polygraph test, yea the detective definitely could have been like in this area we definitely trust you more than her especially because she keeps refusing our requests for a polygraph(a lie but he doesn’t know that and if they are good enough to convince him, brownie points but if not oooph well we tried🤣😅). The other charges that he admitted to, well that kinda be baffles me cause in the states, if you admit to an open crime, they are like thanks for making our lives easier, here’s a cell just for you just ignore that guy in the corner that’s just Bob the cleaner, he’s harmless…. but yea it’s kinda surprising to me that even with his confession they didn’t have enough to convict on the charges especially if the crimes were similar in nature or had the same M.O. as his other ones.
I find it fascinating that you could be in a room and have a conversation with a person who has done these crimes and not be uncomfortable. I think there could be so much potential for advancement of society in studying and embracing how that works in all manner of human interactions. Personally the mere thought of this man's existence sends chills down my spine. If he were in my presence I would instantly go into fight-or-flight mode.
If you're an interrogator, though, it's your job to... interrogate. You learn to compartmentalize your emotions, or you work somewhere else.
If you can't stand the sight of blood, that's fine, but maybe a career in surgery is not for you.
I was thinking that. And also anyone else who has to work with these people, such as justice dept, court officials, psychiatrists, etc.
I remember having to listen to some audio recordings of 911 calls when I once applied to be a dispatcher. They were chilling, and they use that to filter out people with too much a response.
The police officers in this interview are the kind of people the public service produces so that the real bad guys in power, are not in danger. As an example it recently came out that the "journalist" who apparently "debunked" pizzagate, has been arrested for raping toddlers.
What does it matter to this public sector employee if his interview style does not produce results? He gets paid either way, because his wage is set through the states initiation of force.
There are other groups that are more able to properly interrogate. As an example the recent movie 'The Sound of Freedom'. I do not know if this was discussed in the movie but the way those guys are interviewed, literally paedophiles. Is to get them completely on side by charm. For instance it's things like: "Yeah, we don't have sex with children because we live in a civilised society, but sometimes, when a guy gets home and he's had a real hard day, and his fourteen year old daughter is dressed..." etc. etc. Making their behaviour seem absolutely reasonable until the point where they are either arrested or taken out the back and shot.
This is because it is clandestined branches of the military that does this that does not have so much unproductive empathy.
If the police were private sector there would not be the option for unproductive empathy because interviewers like this that got no results would be fired.
Excellent example
Incentive structures, both monetary and social, are very interesting things. I have thankfully no personal experience with any of the groups being discussed here. I do wonder if the incentive structure of clandestine organizations is different from, or better than, that of the police, though. Presumably, there would be even less oversight in organizations that were better shielded from the public eye.
Why do you believe Karla's psychopathy score is too low? You mentioned the test itself is flawed.
Her direct and enthusiastic involvement. The PCL-R might be a garbage checklist, but for her to rate a five on it means that the person that administered it was heavily weighing it in her favor. Likely because she lied and cried about how mean Paul was to her.
Maybe they simply cut a deal with her to try to sweep all the police incompetance from the public?
My self assessment PCL-R racked a solid 80, 85 if criminal versatility means what I think it does!! hehehe. How could a living person get a mere 5?
In my opinion she was manipulative enough to play the role of poor, scared housewife who assisted her husband out of fear and successfully deceived them. There are some people who still have trouble believing women are capable of the kind of cold, brutal cruelty that Homolka displayed. There were even more back then. She probably leaned into that because until the tapes were revealed it was her word against Bernardo’s.
Indeed, she did, but how anyone believed that is beyond me.
Thanks for another great post.
I admit I watched the whole thing: Around 23:45, PB lights up. He says something close to "was that (a sexual assault) one of mine"?
Obviously, bad feelings towards this man are understandable.
What is less is the public acceptance of PBs DNA being available but "UN" - tested for more than 2 years and BEFORE any murders.
Cost estimated of $112,000 ( $500 X 224) to test the rape kits (similar to neglect in Detriot, Texas, New Mexico etc)
The "public" is contented by PB "rotting in jail" while officials refuse to prioritize rape crimes.
I'm pretty sure USA flys $1M terror drones every day over "many" countries and locks up 2M every night for mostly non violent crimes.
Thanks again for the very interesting post.
This kind of story does not interest me
Yeah, neither does your comment yet here you are.
NB
3 mins ago
I am here because I admire Athena and her writing is excellent. This particular topic just was not up my alley. Most all of her post I agree with and I look forward to them. I am interested in her posts about non-criminal psychopathic mind.