Athena, can you act completely like a neurotypical in all ways and especially those that benefit me while maintaining the status of a psychopath so that it benefits me?
Athena, do you want to go to the local puppy park and eat candy floss?
Athena, I read ten of your articles so I am qualified to know everything about you. You are mistaken in your most recent explanations of your emotional life. I know, stop pretending.
Athena, do you want to spend every week for the rest of your life getting drunk with me and my buddies? You will be a better person for it I swear.
Athena, I got bullied in my last job can you discuss that with me like a therapist?
Athena, if we for a super secret psychopath club we will all satisfy our psychopathic emotional need for belonging. You do realise you are a horrible person for not agreeing.
You know, I keep getting two discting impressions while reading through this:
a) the negative (rather self-centered) aspects of your version of psychopathy here described would very well describe any person lacking emotional empathy - which includes various other neurotypes. I'd wager perhaps the majority of the population has these features behind their social mask. Most seem unwilling to admit it though, perhaps even to themselves.
b) the positive (rather humane) aspects of your version of psychopathy here described could very well describe any person of any neurotype who has fully matured emotionally after having effectively digested their share of relationships and life experiences. It boils down to "live and let live" or "do no harm, but take no shit".
I think the reason NTs are so drawn to psychopaths is because in a weird way psychopathy is like a facsimile of what an NT would be like if they'd had the most charmed, well-adjusted, emotionally stable and un-traumatising childhood imaginable. And since we're all basically survival machines, we're wired to be attracted to that, because we've evolved to seek out people who would make good co-parents. I think that rule of attraction is universal enough to extend to friendships too.
NTs are all capable of feeling fear, but we feel it to very different degrees depending on our experiences, especially in childhood. Most types of fear are learned, so depending on our personal experiences and what we absorbed from our parents, we can be complete nervous wrecks or totally cool calm and collected. No prizes for guessing which one we're wired to be attracted to (especially since I already said it lol).
I don't think our brains are sophisticated enough to tell the difference between 'cool-calm-and-collected-because-perfect-childhood' and 'cool-calm-and-collected-because-brain-chemically-incapable-of-being-any-other-way'.
I can only imagine how annoying it must be for you though. You're literally one of the last people in the world to want or be flattered by that kind of attention, yet ironically you have all the traits to make sure you get it in droves. Maybe work on the 'mimicking fear' and 'mimicking insecurity' masks, they might help!
I'm trying to think how I would handle a house fire. I'm not (to the best of my knowledge) a psychopath, but neither am I NT, because I am on the autism spectrum. I've also had to deal with some pretty scary situations in my lifetime.
Athena herself may have heard this story before, but for the benefit of those who haven't, I once had an aggressive cancer that was spreading so fast in the two weeks before my surgery that it was far from clear that they'd be able to get it before it reached stage IV, which would have meant, quite bluntly, that we almost certainly would not be having this conversation right now. The number of people who survive 22 years with a stage IV diagnosis is vanishingly small.
Now, I am just NT enough that I actually did have to have a perhaps five-minute conversation with myself somewhere during that time, where I acknowledged that I had done everything in my power to safeguard my health, that the rest was outside my control and that the only thing I had time to think about at that point was that the rest was being taken care of Upstairs. But that was all it took. I proceeded to fall asleep feeling like I was surrounded by angels. Good angels, of course :)
So, what would I do with that house fire? The only thing that would definitely have potential to bother me would be anything that was irreplaceable, such as valuable family heirlooms, or even more so, if anyone's life (human or otherwise) had been lost or otherwise harmed in the fire. I would definitely be crying about it if anyone I am close to had lost their life.
I still cry over my sweet Marcel - my feline companion who took up residence in my household as a kitten, and passed away in my arms earlier this year at the ripe old age of 16. Given I am still crying over my favorite childhood doggie, who died nearly 50 years ago, no doubt I will be crying over Marcel for the remainder of my lifetime.
Actually, I was a cat papa - Karol is the Polish for Charles. And Marcel was a boy too. I wish I had been able to be a better papa to him. That is part of what I regret about his passing so soon. I had been trying in recent times to deal with my personal demons so I could be a truly good Little Laddy to him. I wish he had had a longer time to enjoy the "new me" that I was working on for him. But he forgave me my flaws. He was a truly good boy.
Apologies for my lack of knowledge of Polish names (in spite of being half Polish myself.) My first name is apparently close to a Russian male first name, though I'm female... not sure about a name "Ivan" in Polish, is there one?
I am glad you worked on being a better papa, and you got to be together during that even if for a little time, then. I'm sorry it was not longer, I feel their lives are always too short. We have four currently, I had one live to 21. They are all good even when being bad.
Yes, my Marcel was kind of naughty sometimes. He definitely took the view that if it isn't on the floor, it should be :P In his prime, he weighed 11 pounds and could open doors with European handles on them without assistance. At the end of his life, his weight sunk to less than 5 pounds as he was dying of kidney cancer. Eventually, he required assistance even to eat and drink. Caring for him was a full-time job. It's a good thing in retrospect that I did not even have a lot of translation work, let alone a full-time job.
I remember one time after his first major health scare in quite some time, I caught him doing his thing, and I finally found it in me to tell him, "Honey, it's great that you have the strength to do that, but do you really have to play with things that aren't toys? Yeah, I guess you do... You're a kitty. It's in your nature..."
It was like he was just waiting to hear those words from me. It was as if he felt that now he'd heard them, he could go in peace. That was the last time he ever had the strength to play. Less than a month later, I found myself having that difficult conversation with him:
"Honey, I'm praying for a miracle for you, to live four more years so you have time to enjoy your new Little Laddy. As long as you want to keep fighting, I'll fight with you. If you feel you need to go, you can do that. But when that moment comes, I just ask one thing: I want you to die in my arms, preferably without any help from Dr. Marcin, because I don't want to feel like I'm playing God with your life."
And a mere couple of days later, that is exactly what happened... I still wasn't sure whether he was gone, so I called Dr. Marcin. He had told me I could call him any time, even on the holiday, because he knew Marcel's condition could take a turn for the worse at any moment. He called back perhaps half an hour later. By this time, it was 1 AM. He told me to grab a flashlight and shine it in his eyes. When I told him there was no reaction, he said, "OK, he's gone then." Marcel had gone to meet his Maker...
Marcel's widow is 16, and her mom lived to be 20. As an outdoor cat, no less. She would have lived even longer, had she not succumbed to breast cancer. Lalcia, on the other hand, was fixed at a young age, so she is not at risk for breast cancer, and she has been an indoor cat for most of her life. Furthermore, she is in great health, so I anticipate she may well live even longer than her mom. Her nickname is Lalcia. It means "Little Dolly" in Polish.
I am sure your kitties, as well, are now living in splendid palaces in heaven. May they rest in peace, and may God bless their memory...
Iwan does in principle exist in Polish, but the normal Polish version is simply Jan. The Polish version of your first name is Iwona. As far as I can tell, your surname is spelled correctly. I'm guessing that your family originally came from the eastern part of Poland with that "-owicz" ending.
I'm actually only a quarter Polish myself. My name situation is actually pretty complicated, At a certain point, I changed my name, tweaking my first two names (which were English) and adding two more for good measure (all four are now Polish). While I was at it, since the average Pole on the street can't make head or tail of my original surname, I added one from my mom's side of the family that people would actually be able to pronounce.
I did have to keep my old surname one for professional reasons, as it is now the only evidence that I am a native speaker of English (which is very important, given I am working as a translator). Thus, the double-barreled surname. Be that as it may, after the name change, I started getting more orders to work into Polish :P
At any rate, my full new name is over 40 characters long. Miraculously, however, I actually managed to fit it onto my new ID documents in its entirety :P
PS You may be interested to know that the name "Karol" was the birth name of none other than Pope John Paul II :)
You don’t need to be psychopathic to not want emotional fuckwads around you. The older I get the more humanity reminds me of a giant colony of cockroaches. Your not special Athena lol.
I unfortunately feel the old joke is looking more and more likely... The cockroaches will outlive us. So... they might be better at being cockroaches than us, we possibly can't even succeed at being cockroaches long-term!
Thank you for the valuable perspective. Here's my take from a neurotypical perspective. Typically, neurotypical individuals experience a constant, mild level of anxiety. This anxiety manifests in overthinking, concern about others' perceptions and expectations, and substantial effort to maintain an appearance of calmness (need to been seen as resilient). This baseline anxiety serves a purpose, as it drives motivation and cooperation. They are usually preoccupied with the need to conform and avoid causing disruptions. I suspect some insecure individuals, who lack the ability to forge meaningful relationships seek out those they perceive as 'detached' with the misconception they somehow have something in common - they do not. For what it's worth, most people would not be able to handle a psychopath as a friend without much disappointment let alone these fragile people jamming your inbox.
Yeah the folks that think they must know you as a person, like that one person you used as an example ( YIKES ), are stupid. They’ve fallen into the parasocial mentality that the tidbits of information you’ve carefully crafted and shared on the internet is everything there is and so obviously they know exactly what you’re like, heavy on the sarcasm.
I bet those people also think they know everything there is to know about a celebrity because they follow them on social media.
They don’t, and thinking you’re an expert on someone because you follow them online is mentally ill.
Okay, forgive the snark but... You say that all the friends that a psychopath has have found them, but... you are in a relationship with another psychopath. It should be a logical impossibility. ;-)
"I also deal with another version of this online, though part of that is my own fault. I write online, which gives people a sense that they know who I am and what I am like. I guarantee that they have no idea, but that doesn’t change the fact that people view the type of writing that I do as some sort of window into my soul, or something along those lines."
I will say Athena that this is the strong impression I have previously received as it has been appearing to me that you've really shared a lot about yourself over the years. Sorry for the incorrect assumption, I'll stop making it.
Can psychopaths experience an existential crisis? And if so, what would be the cause since it wouldn’t be rooted in emotion? Also what would be the focus?
That conversation with the "user" seemed reasonable to me until they just... flipped. I wonder if their NT emotion-centered worldview got threatened; they suddenly sound angry. Something happened anyway.
The logic-centered conversation seems normal to me, less stressful perhaps than having to run my mental model of NT processing while also trying to emulate an NT. I found it hard to notice when you switched to a more "logical" way in that, if that's what you meant.
The difficulties consistently emulating/predicting NT behavior well enough that they don't freak, ugh. For me, your discussion of that feels "validating" - possibly a thing psychopaths don't need as much as autistics? Possibly validation is not needed at all, it seems like mask refinement might be more the focus.
I have never needed validation from others. Feedback, sure, but that's the extent of it. Often, when it comes to things like, say I made dinner, while I appreciate that people like what I made, and I will respond positively to their compliments, I am far more interested in in what can be improved. I would rather know what I am doing wrong than get praise. I prefer the challenge, not the plateau.
Interesting. Autistic person here; never needed validation. What I did, still do, need is: information. Feedback, as Athena wrote to you. Necessary to navigate people and circumstances that employ a language I don’t really speak. I see feedback and validation as very distinct things, but perhaps easy to conflate in a subjective experience? Especially while juggling the stress and possible overwhelm of interaction. In the group of fellow autists I know, validation isn’t a priority and is rarely even mentioned. Figuring out what the heck is going on, now that’s a hot topic :). Just my POV, from my own experience.
I am one of the autistics who "camouflage" and "pass". As I understand it there are lots who do, lots who don't. I spent decades figuring things out, no assistance in most ways. Classes on Animal Behavior were the most helpful, psychology somewhat. Fiction, sci-fi have social interactions. Long story. I learned what was going on on my own, well enough to hold a job etc. My social skills work best in the environment I've learned, but also in completely foreign ones where people expect you to be different. (I discovered a love of some kinds of foreign travel.) Double edged sword is what many call camouflage though, due to the stress and the expectations of perfection on the part of NTs; I suspect they get positive neurotransmitter floods from social stuff that just stresses me. They do not "validate" my stress from that, just punish any errors. The plusses? Survival, or that is how I saw it. Our society lets people fall really really far. Also some freedom, I can do some things I love. I've camouflaged so long it's hard to separate things out sometimes; young adult autistics talk about stopping camouflaging, and I'm like, "what???"
So, the specific kind of validation I mean is that passing as NT with no diagnosis (until age 52) and no relevant information even, was darn hard. (Still is and age reduces my energy.) It gives me a huge sense of relief to read what other non NT folks say about passing.. I don't mean I need validation on every individual thing. I still don't have autistics nearby with similar experiences... most my age, 60 plus female, are undiagnosed. (No proof of course.)
More or less. My preferred state is one of solitude. If someone comes along and improves on that state I will do what I need to do to accommodate them and make adjustments to have them in my life. If they leave I return to my preferred state of solitude. If they improve upon my favored state, I will invest in them
One question I’ve had for some time now: Is the so-called “two thousand yard stare” that is present in soldiers who have seen combat, at all similar to the psychopathic stare?
The thousand yard stare is looking through you to the world past you. It's a downrange stare that comes from being exposed to intense situations such as war. Whether you are in their purview or not means nothing. You could disappear from sight and it wouldn't matter.
The predatory stare is an intense stare at the individual. It tracks you and focuses directly on you to an extreme degree.
You spoke nothing but facts athena, you REALLY opened my eyes to my own behavior, why I have so few friends (actually, just one) and why I find it difficult to be emotionally supportive of those around me. The funny part is, acquaintances in my past kinda told me about my psychopathic tendencies, but I didn't listen because I thought I was acting normal, and had the right to be who I was.
Athena, can you act completely like a neurotypical in all ways and especially those that benefit me while maintaining the status of a psychopath so that it benefits me?
Athena, do you want to go to the local puppy park and eat candy floss?
Athena, I read ten of your articles so I am qualified to know everything about you. You are mistaken in your most recent explanations of your emotional life. I know, stop pretending.
Athena, do you want to spend every week for the rest of your life getting drunk with me and my buddies? You will be a better person for it I swear.
Athena, I got bullied in my last job can you discuss that with me like a therapist?
Athena, if we for a super secret psychopath club we will all satisfy our psychopathic emotional need for belonging. You do realise you are a horrible person for not agreeing.
This comment is awesome
I'll pick you up for the candy floss thing at 5.
I have to admit that candy floss thing piqued my interest
Yeah, who are we kidding? EVEN a psychopath would love to go to the puppy park with candyfloss.
All that energy from doggos. No need to do anything if you don't own a dog. Candyfloss.
I have difficulty maintaining the few friendships I have I sure ain’t out looking for new ones
Right?
Thank you for this enjoyable and insightful post. By reading the things you find important, I learn about myself.
You know, I keep getting two discting impressions while reading through this:
a) the negative (rather self-centered) aspects of your version of psychopathy here described would very well describe any person lacking emotional empathy - which includes various other neurotypes. I'd wager perhaps the majority of the population has these features behind their social mask. Most seem unwilling to admit it though, perhaps even to themselves.
b) the positive (rather humane) aspects of your version of psychopathy here described could very well describe any person of any neurotype who has fully matured emotionally after having effectively digested their share of relationships and life experiences. It boils down to "live and let live" or "do no harm, but take no shit".
I think the reason NTs are so drawn to psychopaths is because in a weird way psychopathy is like a facsimile of what an NT would be like if they'd had the most charmed, well-adjusted, emotionally stable and un-traumatising childhood imaginable. And since we're all basically survival machines, we're wired to be attracted to that, because we've evolved to seek out people who would make good co-parents. I think that rule of attraction is universal enough to extend to friendships too.
NTs are all capable of feeling fear, but we feel it to very different degrees depending on our experiences, especially in childhood. Most types of fear are learned, so depending on our personal experiences and what we absorbed from our parents, we can be complete nervous wrecks or totally cool calm and collected. No prizes for guessing which one we're wired to be attracted to (especially since I already said it lol).
I don't think our brains are sophisticated enough to tell the difference between 'cool-calm-and-collected-because-perfect-childhood' and 'cool-calm-and-collected-because-brain-chemically-incapable-of-being-any-other-way'.
I can only imagine how annoying it must be for you though. You're literally one of the last people in the world to want or be flattered by that kind of attention, yet ironically you have all the traits to make sure you get it in droves. Maybe work on the 'mimicking fear' and 'mimicking insecurity' masks, they might help!
Indeed, perhaps a good idea.
I'm trying to think how I would handle a house fire. I'm not (to the best of my knowledge) a psychopath, but neither am I NT, because I am on the autism spectrum. I've also had to deal with some pretty scary situations in my lifetime.
Athena herself may have heard this story before, but for the benefit of those who haven't, I once had an aggressive cancer that was spreading so fast in the two weeks before my surgery that it was far from clear that they'd be able to get it before it reached stage IV, which would have meant, quite bluntly, that we almost certainly would not be having this conversation right now. The number of people who survive 22 years with a stage IV diagnosis is vanishingly small.
Now, I am just NT enough that I actually did have to have a perhaps five-minute conversation with myself somewhere during that time, where I acknowledged that I had done everything in my power to safeguard my health, that the rest was outside my control and that the only thing I had time to think about at that point was that the rest was being taken care of Upstairs. But that was all it took. I proceeded to fall asleep feeling like I was surrounded by angels. Good angels, of course :)
So, what would I do with that house fire? The only thing that would definitely have potential to bother me would be anything that was irreplaceable, such as valuable family heirlooms, or even more so, if anyone's life (human or otherwise) had been lost or otherwise harmed in the fire. I would definitely be crying about it if anyone I am close to had lost their life.
I still cry over my sweet Marcel - my feline companion who took up residence in my household as a kitten, and passed away in my arms earlier this year at the ripe old age of 16. Given I am still crying over my favorite childhood doggie, who died nearly 50 years ago, no doubt I will be crying over Marcel for the remainder of my lifetime.
Sorry for your loss. I bet you were a great cat mother to her.
Actually, I was a cat papa - Karol is the Polish for Charles. And Marcel was a boy too. I wish I had been able to be a better papa to him. That is part of what I regret about his passing so soon. I had been trying in recent times to deal with my personal demons so I could be a truly good Little Laddy to him. I wish he had had a longer time to enjoy the "new me" that I was working on for him. But he forgave me my flaws. He was a truly good boy.
Apologies for my lack of knowledge of Polish names (in spite of being half Polish myself.) My first name is apparently close to a Russian male first name, though I'm female... not sure about a name "Ivan" in Polish, is there one?
I am glad you worked on being a better papa, and you got to be together during that even if for a little time, then. I'm sorry it was not longer, I feel their lives are always too short. We have four currently, I had one live to 21. They are all good even when being bad.
Yes, my Marcel was kind of naughty sometimes. He definitely took the view that if it isn't on the floor, it should be :P In his prime, he weighed 11 pounds and could open doors with European handles on them without assistance. At the end of his life, his weight sunk to less than 5 pounds as he was dying of kidney cancer. Eventually, he required assistance even to eat and drink. Caring for him was a full-time job. It's a good thing in retrospect that I did not even have a lot of translation work, let alone a full-time job.
I remember one time after his first major health scare in quite some time, I caught him doing his thing, and I finally found it in me to tell him, "Honey, it's great that you have the strength to do that, but do you really have to play with things that aren't toys? Yeah, I guess you do... You're a kitty. It's in your nature..."
It was like he was just waiting to hear those words from me. It was as if he felt that now he'd heard them, he could go in peace. That was the last time he ever had the strength to play. Less than a month later, I found myself having that difficult conversation with him:
"Honey, I'm praying for a miracle for you, to live four more years so you have time to enjoy your new Little Laddy. As long as you want to keep fighting, I'll fight with you. If you feel you need to go, you can do that. But when that moment comes, I just ask one thing: I want you to die in my arms, preferably without any help from Dr. Marcin, because I don't want to feel like I'm playing God with your life."
And a mere couple of days later, that is exactly what happened... I still wasn't sure whether he was gone, so I called Dr. Marcin. He had told me I could call him any time, even on the holiday, because he knew Marcel's condition could take a turn for the worse at any moment. He called back perhaps half an hour later. By this time, it was 1 AM. He told me to grab a flashlight and shine it in his eyes. When I told him there was no reaction, he said, "OK, he's gone then." Marcel had gone to meet his Maker...
Marcel's widow is 16, and her mom lived to be 20. As an outdoor cat, no less. She would have lived even longer, had she not succumbed to breast cancer. Lalcia, on the other hand, was fixed at a young age, so she is not at risk for breast cancer, and she has been an indoor cat for most of her life. Furthermore, she is in great health, so I anticipate she may well live even longer than her mom. Her nickname is Lalcia. It means "Little Dolly" in Polish.
I am sure your kitties, as well, are now living in splendid palaces in heaven. May they rest in peace, and may God bless their memory...
Iwan does in principle exist in Polish, but the normal Polish version is simply Jan. The Polish version of your first name is Iwona. As far as I can tell, your surname is spelled correctly. I'm guessing that your family originally came from the eastern part of Poland with that "-owicz" ending.
I'm actually only a quarter Polish myself. My name situation is actually pretty complicated, At a certain point, I changed my name, tweaking my first two names (which were English) and adding two more for good measure (all four are now Polish). While I was at it, since the average Pole on the street can't make head or tail of my original surname, I added one from my mom's side of the family that people would actually be able to pronounce.
I did have to keep my old surname one for professional reasons, as it is now the only evidence that I am a native speaker of English (which is very important, given I am working as a translator). Thus, the double-barreled surname. Be that as it may, after the name change, I started getting more orders to work into Polish :P
At any rate, my full new name is over 40 characters long. Miraculously, however, I actually managed to fit it onto my new ID documents in its entirety :P
PS You may be interested to know that the name "Karol" was the birth name of none other than Pope John Paul II :)
You don’t need to be psychopathic to not want emotional fuckwads around you. The older I get the more humanity reminds me of a giant colony of cockroaches. Your not special Athena lol.
I unfortunately feel the old joke is looking more and more likely... The cockroaches will outlive us. So... they might be better at being cockroaches than us, we possibly can't even succeed at being cockroaches long-term!
Steady as she goes then. No love loss for the human race here.
Thank you for the valuable perspective. Here's my take from a neurotypical perspective. Typically, neurotypical individuals experience a constant, mild level of anxiety. This anxiety manifests in overthinking, concern about others' perceptions and expectations, and substantial effort to maintain an appearance of calmness (need to been seen as resilient). This baseline anxiety serves a purpose, as it drives motivation and cooperation. They are usually preoccupied with the need to conform and avoid causing disruptions. I suspect some insecure individuals, who lack the ability to forge meaningful relationships seek out those they perceive as 'detached' with the misconception they somehow have something in common - they do not. For what it's worth, most people would not be able to handle a psychopath as a friend without much disappointment let alone these fragile people jamming your inbox.
Yes, I agree. We are not easy friends to have.
Yeah the folks that think they must know you as a person, like that one person you used as an example ( YIKES ), are stupid. They’ve fallen into the parasocial mentality that the tidbits of information you’ve carefully crafted and shared on the internet is everything there is and so obviously they know exactly what you’re like, heavy on the sarcasm.
I bet those people also think they know everything there is to know about a celebrity because they follow them on social media.
They don’t, and thinking you’re an expert on someone because you follow them online is mentally ill.
Yes, I imagine that you're correct
Oh? LOL -adjusts mask, just a bit, but keeps smiling-
Okay, forgive the snark but... You say that all the friends that a psychopath has have found them, but... you are in a relationship with another psychopath. It should be a logical impossibility. ;-)
Fair point. We were introduced by a mutual friend so that sort of took care of itself
"I also deal with another version of this online, though part of that is my own fault. I write online, which gives people a sense that they know who I am and what I am like. I guarantee that they have no idea, but that doesn’t change the fact that people view the type of writing that I do as some sort of window into my soul, or something along those lines."
I will say Athena that this is the strong impression I have previously received as it has been appearing to me that you've really shared a lot about yourself over the years. Sorry for the incorrect assumption, I'll stop making it.
As much as I write, I am an exceptionally private person, and what I speak about is carefully curated to be sure it is not identifying in any way.
Can psychopaths experience an existential crisis? And if so, what would be the cause since it wouldn’t be rooted in emotion? Also what would be the focus?
Nope. I didn't even know what that term meant until reading Elinor Greenberg over on Quora.
That conversation with the "user" seemed reasonable to me until they just... flipped. I wonder if their NT emotion-centered worldview got threatened; they suddenly sound angry. Something happened anyway.
The logic-centered conversation seems normal to me, less stressful perhaps than having to run my mental model of NT processing while also trying to emulate an NT. I found it hard to notice when you switched to a more "logical" way in that, if that's what you meant.
The difficulties consistently emulating/predicting NT behavior well enough that they don't freak, ugh. For me, your discussion of that feels "validating" - possibly a thing psychopaths don't need as much as autistics? Possibly validation is not needed at all, it seems like mask refinement might be more the focus.
I have never needed validation from others. Feedback, sure, but that's the extent of it. Often, when it comes to things like, say I made dinner, while I appreciate that people like what I made, and I will respond positively to their compliments, I am far more interested in in what can be improved. I would rather know what I am doing wrong than get praise. I prefer the challenge, not the plateau.
Interesting. Autistic person here; never needed validation. What I did, still do, need is: information. Feedback, as Athena wrote to you. Necessary to navigate people and circumstances that employ a language I don’t really speak. I see feedback and validation as very distinct things, but perhaps easy to conflate in a subjective experience? Especially while juggling the stress and possible overwhelm of interaction. In the group of fellow autists I know, validation isn’t a priority and is rarely even mentioned. Figuring out what the heck is going on, now that’s a hot topic :). Just my POV, from my own experience.
I am one of the autistics who "camouflage" and "pass". As I understand it there are lots who do, lots who don't. I spent decades figuring things out, no assistance in most ways. Classes on Animal Behavior were the most helpful, psychology somewhat. Fiction, sci-fi have social interactions. Long story. I learned what was going on on my own, well enough to hold a job etc. My social skills work best in the environment I've learned, but also in completely foreign ones where people expect you to be different. (I discovered a love of some kinds of foreign travel.) Double edged sword is what many call camouflage though, due to the stress and the expectations of perfection on the part of NTs; I suspect they get positive neurotransmitter floods from social stuff that just stresses me. They do not "validate" my stress from that, just punish any errors. The plusses? Survival, or that is how I saw it. Our society lets people fall really really far. Also some freedom, I can do some things I love. I've camouflaged so long it's hard to separate things out sometimes; young adult autistics talk about stopping camouflaging, and I'm like, "what???"
So, the specific kind of validation I mean is that passing as NT with no diagnosis (until age 52) and no relevant information even, was darn hard. (Still is and age reduces my energy.) It gives me a huge sense of relief to read what other non NT folks say about passing.. I don't mean I need validation on every individual thing. I still don't have autistics nearby with similar experiences... most my age, 60 plus female, are undiagnosed. (No proof of course.)
What *do* you get out of the friendships you have?
I spoke about some of that here:
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/psychopaths-friends-and-questionable
So the benefit is that you find them stimulating in various ways? Is that an adequate summary?
More or less. My preferred state is one of solitude. If someone comes along and improves on that state I will do what I need to do to accommodate them and make adjustments to have them in my life. If they leave I return to my preferred state of solitude. If they improve upon my favored state, I will invest in them
What she wants from them whatever that may be a lot like you and your friends.
😂 Damn i laugh
Great read, as always.
One question I’ve had for some time now: Is the so-called “two thousand yard stare” that is present in soldiers who have seen combat, at all similar to the psychopathic stare?
Thanks for writing.
No, they are quite different.
The thousand yard stare is looking through you to the world past you. It's a downrange stare that comes from being exposed to intense situations such as war. Whether you are in their purview or not means nothing. You could disappear from sight and it wouldn't matter.
The predatory stare is an intense stare at the individual. It tracks you and focuses directly on you to an extreme degree.
You spoke nothing but facts athena, you REALLY opened my eyes to my own behavior, why I have so few friends (actually, just one) and why I find it difficult to be emotionally supportive of those around me. The funny part is, acquaintances in my past kinda told me about my psychopathic tendencies, but I didn't listen because I thought I was acting normal, and had the right to be who I was.
You are acting normally. Normal, I think, is relative to the individual