As a psychopath, can confirm. Cannot draw to save my life. I have always found this quite annoying, as there are many things I wish I could draw, but every attempt at even a fundamentalist version of something is laughable.
Interestingly, I've found that it's not just drawing either- it appears to be creating visual forms in any medium. Can't create graphic art on a computer either, though the image does get slightly closer to something like what was wanted. 2d sprites, 3d graphics.. Can't even do ASCII art properly.
I imagine you have had the same issue explaining this to people as I have. It is something totally inconceivable for those who cannot understand it, so they tend to think it is either not true, or something that they have the solution to.
Hello Athena, I come from Twitter. You told me you had an entire post about drawing and here I am. I've read it all. I hope I get it all. But I have a question, two, actually.
1. At least you can make schemes of what you trying to express, like trying to draw a chair with lines or a laptop with rectangles? Do you think you can do technical drawing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_drawing)?
2. I didn't really get the part about stealing food. There may be two reasons: I didn't get enough context or... I am stupid and I didn't read well. Yes, there are more reasons, but those are the main ones.
Indeed, though I have little enough interaction with people for it to be a rare occurrence that I need to explain. Mostly they just say I haven't tried hard enough to learn.
Yup, no problem with imagining. I like reading, playing D&D.. I can even perfectly imagine the pictures I want to draw. But there's just some massive disconnect when I attempt to actually do so.
Can I throw paint at a canvas? Sure. Would it be art? Eh, debatable. I've never understood abstract art like that. I assume it somehow draws out emotions in the viewer, but I have no idea what or how, as I can't relate. So I could make a mess of paint on a page, but there would be no intentionality behind it, no vision that I would be manifesting or encapsulating.
So very interesting! I bet, if I was a gambler, that there is a link. As a former art teacher it has been my experience that even the worst sketchers can be taught, if they are intelligent. Clearly you are, so I honestly think it does have something to do with how your brain functions. Anecdotal observations often lead to discoveries, after all. I think this should definitely be studied! Thanks again for another enjoyable piece - more often than not, I experience joy when I read your work - the excitement that comes when considering something new, intellectually stimulating and truly thought-provoking.
This is a super interesting read Athena, and actually one that I've pondered on the subject of a psychopath I know who happens to be gifted musically. I know it's not the same as drawing but I did wonder how a psychopath could "feel" music. I know that music is basically a mathematical thing in terms of reading it but there is also timing 🤔 My brother is a sociopath (I understand this is different) who is a gifted artist. Thank you for the food for thought. 😊
Interesting. The person I knew to be psychopathic could not draw well either. And, as an aside their penmanship (printing) was about first-grade level. Hmmm
My cursive is atrocious, and my printing is largely atrocious, but I did spend some time trying to train it to be better. The result was that when my printing looks less atrocious you can see the work, but most of the time I am unable to reproduce it. Also, the type of pen matters. I also cannot write well on blackboards. The change in angle makes it always look like a five-year-old, or worse.
Weirdly I had a handwriting expert ask for a sample of my writing. I decided not to, as I prefer my privacy to their curiosity, but interesting all the same.
She was a forensic handwriting expert, but she hit me up on Quora asking me for a handwriting sample. I didn't pursue it at all, so what she intended to use it for isn't apparent to me. I think she was probably just curious, but it could have been more than that.
Sounds as though a phenomenon that could take some serious looking into. As suggested by another commenter. Additionally, the person I referred to was incredibly knowledgeable and studious, so his inability to draw and physical writing ability was in no way a reflection of his overall intelligence and communication ability.
In my evaluation of myself it really does appear to be a lack of connectivity in the brain, so it shouldn't have any effect on intelligence or anything like that.
Interesting. Could you draw a 3D cube? Shade a circle into a sphere? Draw a straight line? Trace an image on a lightbox? I don't want to play at Neo... Well, actually, I do. But I trust your warnings.
I suck at art. I can draw poor stick figures. My handwriting is atrocious most of the time. My printing is far better now. Algebra was daunting. I hid food. However, that was so my siblings didn’t grab the captain crunch first.
I am not sure that I'm a psychopath- I don't think I am. But I do struggle with drawing in the way that you and others with psychopathy speak about struggling with drawing, and so I wonder if I have similar issues. What I have found recently, however, and I'm wondering if it might work for any of you who have a desire to be creative with art but have up until now been unable to reproduce anything effectively- I started digital art. I found that while I cannot draw anything to saw my life, if I zoom in very deep and go basically pixel by pixel in trimming things with the eraser and adding to the image, I do a much better job than anything I can freehand or in real life. It's almost like I just draw whatever bullshit I'm actually capable of and then I edit it into something reasonable. It's like starting with a bunch of stuff and then deleting from it. Like sculpting with digital art as opposed to focusing creating from nothing. I don't know if this will help anyone, but I thought it's worth saying.
"My brain sees the images just fine, but there is something missing in the translation of those images to my hand, and I entire lack the ability to reproduce them. I can reproduce them in writing very easily"
By hand can you manage say something like an 0 or an O in writing?
Happy to take your word for it that your drawing ability isn’t strong. But although it might be as basic as you can get strikes me you’ve still shown an ability to draw a circle if you can write out an O! If you can write out the number 0 strikes me that this shows that you can successfully reproduce an oblong shape.
Of course I can’t know whether or not this applies to you any better than you. But I do know for art beginners being able to successfully draw basic shapes can be a helpful initial step on the way to at least improving.
Sorry if I'm being dense here (as part of not having had my full morning caffeine fix quite yet). But how is hand writing out an O or 0 not drawing those shapes?
Unless what you mean is that you can't hand write those? Just trying to understand better!
Scale seems to matter. There's some differences in writing the letter O and drawing a circle that is designed to be a circle, not least that the circle is usually far larger than the letter.
Personally, I could probably get some version of basic shapes down okay, could draw a triangle or circle that is recognizable as such, but that's a far cry from actually making art. Art involves imagining, picturing, then translating that image onto a page or canvas. Basic shapes don't really require imagining and translating, just drawing what is known to be the shape.
I took Athena to mean the literal meaning of drawing (as in making marks and lines on paper with pens, pencils etc). But true enough on that being a far cry from actually being able to make proper art. While I have an art book that points out more complex shapes tend to be made up of more basic shapes (meaning it comes over to me that the ability to make basic shapes could be a stepping stone towards making better art) I guess basic shapes are about as far as some can get. I can't say that I can naturally do much better than that myself. If I spend enough time and effort drawing from references I can make what I do look reasonably good at least. But I know that's really cheating!
There’s always abstract painting. I’d give that a shot, just to see what comes out. You could run it by any artist you may know, or even on this forum for comments. Or just get your SO’s opinion.
Or “WALKER: GENIUS UNMASKED”. But it would be interesting to see what you’d come up with. How wrong can you go with lots of colors. Just slap a quality frame on it.
The ‘psychopath’ angle would boost attention, but I’m willing to bet if you rented a gallery in Soho and put all the expected gallery elements in place (the snootier the ambiance, the better), you’d sell without it. It’s that ‘Emperor’s new clothes’ effect. If people will buy feces in a can or a banana stuck to a wall as art, you’re work would certainly be viable.
I think you've looked into the structure of psychopathic brains quite a bit, if I remember correctly, Athena. Maybe something in this article will pop out as potentially related to this current post.
When I was little I would replicate music on a piano, so it was assumed that I had some sort of talent for it. It wasn't that, it was that I could hear something and then find the notes that made up that tune. I took lessons for piano, and had no interest in it after that. I think it was about a challenge of figuring out the right keys that interested me, not anything having to do with actually playing. Learning an instrument was paint by numbers to me. This note is replicated in this way. Nothing about it was creative for me, nor did I possess the talent for it.
I played trumpet in jr high and high school. It was always a struggle to try and translate the notes on the page to what was supposed to be hear. However, once I had heard someone play it, it was quite easy to replicate.
I played in the jazz band for a bit. My solos were.. horrendous. No idea what I was doing, and no ability to generate my own music on the fly. Since there's no emotion involved in the creation, and no emotive drawing for the listening, it was just really really bad.
I’m absolutely horrific at drawing. Embarrassingly so. That said, it isn’t something that troubles me so I haven’t attempted to rectify my quasi stick man style.
Athena, are you a perfectionist?
If the shape of what you wish to draw on the paper doesn’t conform to the perfect image in your mind could you already disregarding it as you continue to draw?
I have a vivid imagination and I visualise a lot too. I wonder sometimes if my artistic inability is linked to the inability of my creation to ever measure up to my imagination.
No, I have never been a perfectionist. I have always held the notion that perfection is the enemy of progress. It definitely is not a mindset issue. I expect to do poorly at something at first as everything has a learning curve. I enjoy the challenge of that curve no matter what I undertake, so long as it holds an interest for me.
Have to agree. Perfection is the enemy of progress. I’ve given up a lot of hobbies on the basis of not being good enough or, not progressing fast enough.
My work ethic works. My relax time ethic, not so much.
I think there is a lot of research potential here to figure it out if it was just a very weird coincidence or psychopaths can't really draw, but what if it's true? It could be a headache.
"Psycopaths can't draw" could become quite popular and there is already a lot of people spreading dumb videos such as "how to diagnose a psychopath in 5 minutes"
You are right about that, and it is something that I have considered. I think that is the case with anything new that might be discovered that could apply to all psychopaths, but not all people with it are psychopaths.
Interesting, Athena. One of the sociopaths I told you about actually could draw pretty well, sometimes, but not always by tracing. He was only so imaginative (except when it came to theft), but what he could imagine he could draw well.
I found it interesting in that I am a semi-pro vocalist, and have an exquisite ear for the finest details of voice.
I can listen as a technician of voice, and step into the larynx and face of the singer with my imagination, to understand what they are doing.
Or I can shift focus, and take a passive ride with the voice into it’s emotional inductions.
I often coach other musicians that are of a more technical nature to remember that as a performance artist, they aren’t there to provide a demonstration of skills, but to interact, to throw a party with an entertainment product.
It’s not about them, they are only a conduit of musical experience.
No one hums the bass drum after the show.
Not assuming that anyone cares, but as a voice connoisseur, Karen Carpenter of the Carpenters has the cleanest, most authentic expression.
When I was attending voice lessons when I was younger I was told by the teacher that I had to breathe more often for the audience's comfort. I had plenty of air, but the audience would be set on edge if I didn't intentionally breathe more frequently.
Really interesting! I'm curious about (relatively simple?) geometric shapes like circles and triangles; what is your experience if you try to draw them, and how is the result?
A note -- it apparently takes a really good artist to draw a good circle freehand.
The food hoarding is interesting too. Thank you for the post.
They would look like disproportional messes that might be mistaken for something vaguely like what was asked.
Interestingly there was this ridiculous myth that only psychopaths can draw perfect circles. If my suspicion about psychopathy and drawing is correct, I would find that myth one of the more amusing ones.
There are older myths about historical figures drawing perfect circles too, apparently none are definitely true though. :-) I guess there would have been a good market for Facebook and all the other places viral myths come from back in the Middle Ages.
This painter might have drawn a perfect-ish circle but who knows?
As a psychopath, can confirm. Cannot draw to save my life. I have always found this quite annoying, as there are many things I wish I could draw, but every attempt at even a fundamentalist version of something is laughable.
Interestingly, I've found that it's not just drawing either- it appears to be creating visual forms in any medium. Can't create graphic art on a computer either, though the image does get slightly closer to something like what was wanted. 2d sprites, 3d graphics.. Can't even do ASCII art properly.
I imagine you have had the same issue explaining this to people as I have. It is something totally inconceivable for those who cannot understand it, so they tend to think it is either not true, or something that they have the solution to.
Hello Athena, I come from Twitter. You told me you had an entire post about drawing and here I am. I've read it all. I hope I get it all. But I have a question, two, actually.
1. At least you can make schemes of what you trying to express, like trying to draw a chair with lines or a laptop with rectangles? Do you think you can do technical drawing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_drawing)?
2. I didn't really get the part about stealing food. There may be two reasons: I didn't get enough context or... I am stupid and I didn't read well. Yes, there are more reasons, but those are the main ones.
Greetings Athena! Hope you're well.
Nope, not at all.
There really isn't anything to get about it. It was just a strange theme that all of us had in our lives.
Sorry for the last comments.
Indeed, though I have little enough interaction with people for it to be a rare occurrence that I need to explain. Mostly they just say I haven't tried hard enough to learn.
Yup, every single time.
What about drawing in imagination? Can you two close your eyes and imagine a cube?
I can visualize anything in exquisite detail. It is why I can write things that people feel like they can touch.
I agree. Where there is take, there is give. While I cannot draw, I can illustrate.
Yup, no problem with imagining. I like reading, playing D&D.. I can even perfectly imagine the pictures I want to draw. But there's just some massive disconnect when I attempt to actually do so.
Exactly.
What about something like splatter paint art? Ever tried it?
Can I throw paint at a canvas? Sure. Would it be art? Eh, debatable. I've never understood abstract art like that. I assume it somehow draws out emotions in the viewer, but I have no idea what or how, as I can't relate. So I could make a mess of paint on a page, but there would be no intentionality behind it, no vision that I would be manifesting or encapsulating.
Yes, I agree. Abstract art just looks like laziness to me. I think that abstract art is an ingenious money laundering scam.
Yeah...I know what you mean. I don't know much about it, but out of the little I do know can't say it appeals much to me personally.
So very interesting! I bet, if I was a gambler, that there is a link. As a former art teacher it has been my experience that even the worst sketchers can be taught, if they are intelligent. Clearly you are, so I honestly think it does have something to do with how your brain functions. Anecdotal observations often lead to discoveries, after all. I think this should definitely be studied! Thanks again for another enjoyable piece - more often than not, I experience joy when I read your work - the excitement that comes when considering something new, intellectually stimulating and truly thought-provoking.
I'm glad
This is a super interesting read Athena, and actually one that I've pondered on the subject of a psychopath I know who happens to be gifted musically. I know it's not the same as drawing but I did wonder how a psychopath could "feel" music. I know that music is basically a mathematical thing in terms of reading it but there is also timing 🤔 My brother is a sociopath (I understand this is different) who is a gifted artist. Thank you for the food for thought. 😊
I wrote a post on music that you can find here:
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/the-hills-are-alive-with-thats-right
It probably does not help that I absolutely suck at math, but I know a composer, and his relationship with music is not something I can understand.
Interesting. The person I knew to be psychopathic could not draw well either. And, as an aside their penmanship (printing) was about first-grade level. Hmmm
My penmanship is atrocious
My cursive is atrocious, and my printing is largely atrocious, but I did spend some time trying to train it to be better. The result was that when my printing looks less atrocious you can see the work, but most of the time I am unable to reproduce it. Also, the type of pen matters. I also cannot write well on blackboards. The change in angle makes it always look like a five-year-old, or worse.
Weirdly I had a handwriting expert ask for a sample of my writing. I decided not to, as I prefer my privacy to their curiosity, but interesting all the same.
Was it so bad people couldn't read?
Depends on the person reading it, it seems
She was a forensic handwriting expert, but she hit me up on Quora asking me for a handwriting sample. I didn't pursue it at all, so what she intended to use it for isn't apparent to me. I think she was probably just curious, but it could have been more than that.
Perhaps, yes, but know that I don't know all the ways that change would affect the world, so that might not be a reasonable response
Mine is incredibly inconsistent. Sometimes it is all right, but most of the time its quality is lacking.
Sounds as though a phenomenon that could take some serious looking into. As suggested by another commenter. Additionally, the person I referred to was incredibly knowledgeable and studious, so his inability to draw and physical writing ability was in no way a reflection of his overall intelligence and communication ability.
Makes sense
In my evaluation of myself it really does appear to be a lack of connectivity in the brain, so it shouldn't have any effect on intelligence or anything like that.
Interesting. Could you draw a 3D cube? Shade a circle into a sphere? Draw a straight line? Trace an image on a lightbox? I don't want to play at Neo... Well, actually, I do. But I trust your warnings.
Nope, and everything but the lightbox, but that is because I have never tried.
Forgive me, I didn't grok what you could do from your response. You cannot draw a cube? That's amazing. It seems more procedural than anything else.
Nope, can't. Despite many people trying to show me different techniques.
Wow. Thanks. That's really surprising.
Indeed
If you don't mind me asking... what happens when you try? I can't visualize not drawing a cube.
I suck at art. I can draw poor stick figures. My handwriting is atrocious most of the time. My printing is far better now. Algebra was daunting. I hid food. However, that was so my siblings didn’t grab the captain crunch first.
Are you a psychopath?
Yes
A very good reason
I am not sure that I'm a psychopath- I don't think I am. But I do struggle with drawing in the way that you and others with psychopathy speak about struggling with drawing, and so I wonder if I have similar issues. What I have found recently, however, and I'm wondering if it might work for any of you who have a desire to be creative with art but have up until now been unable to reproduce anything effectively- I started digital art. I found that while I cannot draw anything to saw my life, if I zoom in very deep and go basically pixel by pixel in trimming things with the eraser and adding to the image, I do a much better job than anything I can freehand or in real life. It's almost like I just draw whatever bullshit I'm actually capable of and then I edit it into something reasonable. It's like starting with a bunch of stuff and then deleting from it. Like sculpting with digital art as opposed to focusing creating from nothing. I don't know if this will help anyone, but I thought it's worth saying.
One of the people that tried to teach me to draw did 3D imaging, and that made no difference.
Very intriguing!
"My brain sees the images just fine, but there is something missing in the translation of those images to my hand, and I entire lack the ability to reproduce them. I can reproduce them in writing very easily"
By hand can you manage say something like an 0 or an O in writing?
I can write numbers, and letters, but my handwriting is not good.
Happy to take your word for it that your drawing ability isn’t strong. But although it might be as basic as you can get strikes me you’ve still shown an ability to draw a circle if you can write out an O! If you can write out the number 0 strikes me that this shows that you can successfully reproduce an oblong shape.
Of course I can’t know whether or not this applies to you any better than you. But I do know for art beginners being able to successfully draw basic shapes can be a helpful initial step on the way to at least improving.
You would think so, but no. Not for me, and seemingly not for any of the psychopaths that I have spoken to.
Sorry if I'm being dense here (as part of not having had my full morning caffeine fix quite yet). But how is hand writing out an O or 0 not drawing those shapes?
Unless what you mean is that you can't hand write those? Just trying to understand better!
Scale seems to matter. There's some differences in writing the letter O and drawing a circle that is designed to be a circle, not least that the circle is usually far larger than the letter.
Personally, I could probably get some version of basic shapes down okay, could draw a triangle or circle that is recognizable as such, but that's a far cry from actually making art. Art involves imagining, picturing, then translating that image onto a page or canvas. Basic shapes don't really require imagining and translating, just drawing what is known to be the shape.
Basic shapes are all right for me as well, but when you get into things like hexagons proportions will be off and it will look awful.
I took Athena to mean the literal meaning of drawing (as in making marks and lines on paper with pens, pencils etc). But true enough on that being a far cry from actually being able to make proper art. While I have an art book that points out more complex shapes tend to be made up of more basic shapes (meaning it comes over to me that the ability to make basic shapes could be a stepping stone towards making better art) I guess basic shapes are about as far as some can get. I can't say that I can naturally do much better than that myself. If I spend enough time and effort drawing from references I can make what I do look reasonably good at least. But I know that's really cheating!
There’s always abstract painting. I’d give that a shot, just to see what comes out. You could run it by any artist you may know, or even on this forum for comments. Or just get your SO’s opinion.
So, throw paint at a canvas and claim that it's art? I could even go so far as to market it as "psychopathic art". People would eat it up.
Or “WALKER: GENIUS UNMASKED”. But it would be interesting to see what you’d come up with. How wrong can you go with lots of colors. Just slap a quality frame on it.
The ‘psychopath’ angle would boost attention, but I’m willing to bet if you rented a gallery in Soho and put all the expected gallery elements in place (the snootier the ambiance, the better), you’d sell without it. It’s that ‘Emperor’s new clothes’ effect. If people will buy feces in a can or a banana stuck to a wall as art, you’re work would certainly be viable.
Here's an article on relating drawing ability to various brain areas:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1053811914002237
I think you've looked into the structure of psychopathic brains quite a bit, if I remember correctly, Athena. Maybe something in this article will pop out as potentially related to this current post.
Thank you, Yvonne.
How about playing music? Could you play an instrument? And if yes, could you improvise or compose? This is very interesting.
When I was little I would replicate music on a piano, so it was assumed that I had some sort of talent for it. It wasn't that, it was that I could hear something and then find the notes that made up that tune. I took lessons for piano, and had no interest in it after that. I think it was about a challenge of figuring out the right keys that interested me, not anything having to do with actually playing. Learning an instrument was paint by numbers to me. This note is replicated in this way. Nothing about it was creative for me, nor did I possess the talent for it.
I played trumpet in jr high and high school. It was always a struggle to try and translate the notes on the page to what was supposed to be hear. However, once I had heard someone play it, it was quite easy to replicate.
I played in the jazz band for a bit. My solos were.. horrendous. No idea what I was doing, and no ability to generate my own music on the fly. Since there's no emotion involved in the creation, and no emotive drawing for the listening, it was just really really bad.
I can sing, and do so well, but there is no emotion in it unless I specifically emulate someone else singing with emotion.
I’m absolutely horrific at drawing. Embarrassingly so. That said, it isn’t something that troubles me so I haven’t attempted to rectify my quasi stick man style.
Athena, are you a perfectionist?
If the shape of what you wish to draw on the paper doesn’t conform to the perfect image in your mind could you already disregarding it as you continue to draw?
I have a vivid imagination and I visualise a lot too. I wonder sometimes if my artistic inability is linked to the inability of my creation to ever measure up to my imagination.
No, I have never been a perfectionist. I have always held the notion that perfection is the enemy of progress. It definitely is not a mindset issue. I expect to do poorly at something at first as everything has a learning curve. I enjoy the challenge of that curve no matter what I undertake, so long as it holds an interest for me.
Have to agree. Perfection is the enemy of progress. I’ve given up a lot of hobbies on the basis of not being good enough or, not progressing fast enough.
My work ethic works. My relax time ethic, not so much.
I think there is a lot of research potential here to figure it out if it was just a very weird coincidence or psychopaths can't really draw, but what if it's true? It could be a headache.
"Psycopaths can't draw" could become quite popular and there is already a lot of people spreading dumb videos such as "how to diagnose a psychopath in 5 minutes"
You are right about that, and it is something that I have considered. I think that is the case with anything new that might be discovered that could apply to all psychopaths, but not all people with it are psychopaths.
Interesting, Athena. One of the sociopaths I told you about actually could draw pretty well, sometimes, but not always by tracing. He was only so imaginative (except when it came to theft), but what he could imagine he could draw well.
Sociopaths don't have the differences in the brain that psychopaths do, so it doesn't surprise me that he is able to draw if he has the skill for it.
Drawing skill as a subset in art appreciation.
When do you feel feelings of awe and wonderment experiencing art?
And what about your emotional esthetic artful appreciation of music?
Does any particular music give you pleasurable goosebumps?
No, I like what I like, but there isn't anything emotional about it. It's just nice. Nothing more.
I spoke about music in detail here:
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/the-hills-are-alive-with-thats-right
Thanks, I missed that post.
I found it interesting in that I am a semi-pro vocalist, and have an exquisite ear for the finest details of voice.
I can listen as a technician of voice, and step into the larynx and face of the singer with my imagination, to understand what they are doing.
Or I can shift focus, and take a passive ride with the voice into it’s emotional inductions.
I often coach other musicians that are of a more technical nature to remember that as a performance artist, they aren’t there to provide a demonstration of skills, but to interact, to throw a party with an entertainment product.
It’s not about them, they are only a conduit of musical experience.
No one hums the bass drum after the show.
Not assuming that anyone cares, but as a voice connoisseur, Karen Carpenter of the Carpenters has the cleanest, most authentic expression.
Not that I like the music itself though…
When I was attending voice lessons when I was younger I was told by the teacher that I had to breathe more often for the audience's comfort. I had plenty of air, but the audience would be set on edge if I didn't intentionally breathe more frequently.
Really interesting! I'm curious about (relatively simple?) geometric shapes like circles and triangles; what is your experience if you try to draw them, and how is the result?
A note -- it apparently takes a really good artist to draw a good circle freehand.
The food hoarding is interesting too. Thank you for the post.
They would look like disproportional messes that might be mistaken for something vaguely like what was asked.
Interestingly there was this ridiculous myth that only psychopaths can draw perfect circles. If my suspicion about psychopathy and drawing is correct, I would find that myth one of the more amusing ones.
There are older myths about historical figures drawing perfect circles too, apparently none are definitely true though. :-) I guess there would have been a good market for Facebook and all the other places viral myths come from back in the Middle Ages.
This painter might have drawn a perfect-ish circle but who knows?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giotto#Early_life_and_career