I am not a psychopath, I am officially diagnosed with unspecified dissociative disorder, but my emotional experience seems to be pretty similar to yours. I don’t feel emotional empathy, love, trust, jealousy, my remorse is cognitive only too, I don’t bond. The emotions that I do feel I do not feel deeply, they are over as soon as they are over. My default emotional state is a mix of content and boredom, though not as severe as yours, as well. These are not all similarities that there are, there are more and it is easier to name the differences.
These are that I can experience anxiety and some form of fear, some form of sadness, some form of disgust and get excited.
I don’t have general anxiety and phobias, I only have them in the situations where there is a threat or possibility of a threat, they are more than and are different from fight or flight response, but are less than and different from common anxiety and fear. Fear for me is more of not wanting something to happen. I can get sad, but I don’t remember when I was sad last time and there are times when I forget what sadness even feels like and feeling it in situations I know I have felt it in before seems bizarre. I don’t get disgusted by sights, but do get disgusted by smells and tastes, some if they are intense enough, can make me gag.
Another thing that I can experience is dissociation, or what I call dissociation. Here is where the confusion can arise. There are a lot of dissociative experiences that I have, but there is a major difference between how some of them look like in my case and in conventional cases of dissociative disorders. First is that in my case they are triggered at will, consciously or unconsciously, but not by anxiety or stress. In situations where I can get anxious, even if I was dissociated before, I usually get less dissociated and stress I don’t remember ever experiencing, while some sort of dissociation has been around as long as I remember. I don’t have a standard dissociative response to potentially traumatic events other people with dissociative disorders have, I don’t get traumatized at all or even deeply emotionally affected when such events occur. But I can dissociate when I choose to or rarely for no apparent reason.
Another thing is that while for most people with such disorders their normal state is the one in which they can experience certain emotions and pathological state is the one in which they are dissociated from them, for me it’s the opposite. Some emotions I can only experience when I trigger them at will and some are not quite real, and are a product of dissociation. Sadness, for example, for me is not a product of dissociation, but I only feel it when I trigger it. Attachment on another hand is not, for a long time I didn’t know it could be felt and only after I learnt about it did my mind try to generate its version of it, in my case being perceiving people partly like I perceive my consciousness and desiring to be with them as a way to reconnect with it. Which is, as I learnt, not like other people feel attachment. Manufactured emotions feel similarly to each other, are pretty different to how other people describe how they feel and are usually accompanied by somatic symptoms, like dizziness or problems with hearing. The way I trigger normal emotions, like sadness, is also different from how other people say they trigger emotions. To feel it, for example, I just dissociate with an intension to feel a combination of physical feelings and not by thinking about something sad. It can also be triggered as a response to anything, to something that I like, or something that isn’t supposed to cause any reaction at all, without a reason and be removed the same way. Same goes for other emotions, those that I can feel or my mind’s versions of emotions I cannot feel I know about. It’s a complicated experience and I am not sure I can describe it well lol.
I certainly don’t have psychopathy, I don’t think I am neurotypical either and my diagnosis doesn’t really match my experience as well. I have nearly all traits seen in psychopathy and several significant dissociative traits, both of which in it’s pure form, cannot be present together. Dissociation is not common in people high on psychopathic spectrum, and neither are psychopathic traits in people with severe dissociation. I happen to have both, however. Me and my acquaintances who specialize in neuroscience came up with several theories as for what could explain that, two of which have already proved wrong. One is that it could be that I have a brain type prone to dissociation, and a brain tumor or lesions that cause my emotional experience to be similar to psychopathic one. It could be the opposite, that I have a brain type more similar to a psychopathic one and brain tumor or lesions that cause the dissociative experiences. The least probable theory but the one that makes the most sense to me is that I could have a brain type
independent from both psychopathy and dissociation condition, that makes me have a similar to psychopathic experience, and also be able to control functioning of some of the brain zones to a degree, creating experience similar to dissociation or involving dissociation. I did an mri recently and they didn’t find anything, the later theory is that, very unlikely to prove true. I was planning to get a functional mri to test it, but I am not sure when I will be able to do it considering Covid situation in my country.
A possibility worth considering might be that you're a high functioning schizoid - one who has managed to get a grasp on their adaptation and use it productively. SPD is a dissociative disorder, and like most such conditions it runs on a spectrum.
Dissociation typically shapes up as a self-protective compartmentalization of body-emotions | mind. I have observed this can sometimes make a person snap into a hyper-rational state that is not unlike the experience described by Athena.
This would not be necessarily apparent in a MRI since it's not a baseline wiring but rather a sort of shifting into different self-states depending on the circumstances. A fMRI could allow to check this if you were asked to focus on different tasks and processing modes to compare how that changes your brain metabolism.
I imagine the mechanism of it could be similar to the sort of "emotional circuit breaker" described in this article, except it doesn't return you to a baseline but instead makes you snap into different cognitive modes.
Much like factor 1 psychopathy and ASD, SPD can cause both positive and negative repercussions - but available clinical research understandably over focuses on the negatives, since they're looking for a way to remedy them.
In fact, the positive sides to all these three conditions could be somewhat analog, in that they revolve around a self-protective emotional insulation that shields a person from outside influences.
It's possible that you have grown accustomed to a dissociate state, and what you regard as dissociation is actually ... tentative association (integration?). Which then inevitably trips the circuit breaker and brings you back to the rational baseline where you already feel at home, out of habit.
For Athena --> this is argument #2 in favor of my last reply regarding schizoid PD being a candidate for the revised psychopathy scale from the NT point of view ^_^
I don’t, don’t worry. I felt there was a need to clarify what I meant in my first comment, because from what I wrote it was not clear. I think I will edit it.
As I said, my situation is complicated. I also suck at writing.
Your 'condition' is certainly a puzzling mixture. I can only hope that the future brings you a more reliable diagnosis (because knowledge really is power) and that meanwhile you can become more comfortable in yourself.
BTW, I admire your "but why do you care?" motif. I decided to adopt this--kind of to "channel" your attitude--during a recent "we have to talk" with my SO. As in, I decided not to get upset about whatever reaction he might have to what I wanted to say. So I actually did that. Yes, I felt some tension/anxiety around speaking up, but was able to keep my focus on my end-goal of what I wanted to convey. And was successful in it.
I do admit, my success in "channeling" your attitude was likely also helped by the fact that I've been doing some very significant emotional-healing work recently, so my limbic NO NOT DOING THAT reaction was already not as intense as it has been in the past.
Anyway, point being THANK YOU for sharing your experience and point of view.
Congrats on the progress. I think that having less of an emotional investment in a conversation like that means that you will hear better, and also communicate better as well. When you are emotionally distant, you are more able to formulate your thoughts and present them with clear intention. At least, that is what I have observed.
Thanks! I would not describe what I did as "emotionally distant," though. More like I was determined not to take his reaction--whatever it was--personally. Basically, as an NT person, I'm hardwired to "care". I just decided not to get upset about whatever he felt. That was my own version of "but why do I care" how he feels?
I was able to do this to some extent as a child and young person, to detach from bullying or people's judgement, but if anything it got harder over the years with people I have a bond with.
Makes sense. In some ways, bonds can become more important as one gets older and realizes all the ways they can get messed with. One factor that's been a hurdle for me is that I have had abandonment issues from a childhood trauma -- which got triggered by any thought that someone I cared about might possibly "leave me" in any sense. This trauma trigger completely shut me down (think limbic system reptile brain) at any point where limbic system thought I was "rocking the boat" in any way. So bottom line = I sympathize.
Still, Athena's basic question here, "Why do you care?", is pretty powerful. Especially if one explores around all the edges in the ways it feels relevant to you. Perhaps changing emphases: WHY do you care? Why DO you care? What does caring mean in this context? How does the other person's reactions/feelings impact you? And imagining for a moment that you, too, could not process oxytocin, how would the situation and your reaction be different? Is there anything you can take from that imagining that will help you in this situation? And so on.
Again, wishing you well in your upcoming conversations.
That's me as well. I was repeatedly threatened with being sent away as a child, while on other occasions being told how wrong it was for Mrs So and So or whoever to threaten to send their child away. Huh? Try to make sense of that as a small kid! Constant conflict in the family resulted in living in permanenet fear of losing all physical and emotional safety. The upshot of this is that if as a passenger I get out of the car to take a photo, there is a wave of fear that the driver will just drive off. Ridiculous, but it's wired in.
In life generally, I have moved away from needing other people's support and gradually learned to do very intimidating things on my own, that was a lot of work. But in emotional relationships, I have always been terrified of anger in my partner, not fearing violence, but thinking this is it, I've messed up, and it ruined, it's over, oh god, oh god. Utter panic, anticipatory grief, a cascade of intolerable physical sensations and unmanageable emotions. And so we do a lot of things we shouldnt just to keep the peace. So since you are similar, I am encouraged that you have got to a better level of managing than I have thus far, and I will definitely be channeling Athena as best I can and keeping your success in mind.
Since so many situations in my life required me to rehearse and role play being someone else (because the real me couldn't possibly do such things, fake it till you make it), it's annoying that I can't 'be' someone stronger and more detached during emotional conflicts, but I'll be giving it my best shot.
What's made the biggest difference for me in my healing journey is a process called memory reconsolidation. It turns out that memories have two parts -- the "just the facts" events, and the emotional component. While the fact event memory is quite robust, it turns out that our brains can "rewrite" a new version of the emotional component. I recommend you look into finding someone who can do this process with/for you. It's important to get all the pieces of the process done correctly, because otherwise it doesn't "take". Here's a link to the fellow I worked with.
That's awesome for you, and encouraging for me, as I have some difficult conversations with a huge emotional load coming up. I will try my best to do as you did.
Indeed, conversations with huge emotional loads are challenging. I just clarified to Athena's comment (about "emotionally distant") on my comment -- you may want to read that.
I think there's a subtle difference between not caring what someone thinks or feels, and not taking their reaction personally. And there's also that whole dimension of trying to exercise control -- ie, trying to avoid conflict and bad feelings. To the degree that I often rehearse in my head half a gazillion different approaches.
I still do a fair amount of this pre-encounter rehearsing, but what I've noticed is that it's way easier for me to just start talking and continue, and as I said to stay focused on my goal in the discussion. I do attribute half of this to my recent spiritual healing work; the other half to "channeling" Athena.
I suppose I kind of morphed her "why do you care?" question into "why do you get upset about it?" As an NT type of person, I can't avoid caring. It's hardwired into the oxytocin. But getting upset is more of a choice, something I can avoid doing.
Wishing you the best of luck in your upcoming difficult conversations!
Yes these are subtle distinctions but I see what you mean. It seems a bit crazy that we have to analyse and attempt to control our mental and emotional landscapes in such detail, and as you say, rehearse words and try to control our responses and it's all too much! So your success is great. Thanks for the wishes.
That is largely true, and yet, it's not quite that simple (because things rarely are!). There are odd occasions when hightened emotion in discussion actually leads to a kind of inspired flow state of inspiration, not unlike artistic creativity that seems to come from nowhere, and you are left wondering just where your words came from, where those ideas were born, how did it all come together so well? In my experience this does not occur in detached clinical discussions. Sometimes, rarely, emotion actually results in Better and More, far beyond expectations, perhaps the brain just responds particularly well to the 'emergency'.. But it's unreliable and not something to count on, so broadly I agree with you.
This one definitely helped differentiate antisocial PD from psychopathy, we have a lot more negative emotions and maybe it's the oxytocin factor which could explain the potential ADHD-psychopathy link as well. I've always thought this link could be an error of assumption, but children born with psychopathy may be diagnosed with ADHD due to their inattentiveness when it comes to the emotions of others.
Even if antisocials don't experience empathy or remorse, we absolutely experience anger to the point of rage, envy/jealousy, disgust and not to mention we're some of the least trusting of others. The price we pay though is that we don't have that same contentedness or happiness that psychopaths have at all and I've heard some antisocials say they've never felt happiness.
Interesting that you bring up contempt though. I've seen antisocials bring up contempt towards others for a very similar reason you did, the allegory for this would be stealing from a homeless person basically. Even if I don't feel bad for the homeless guy, it's still pathetic.
My question is: with these studies on oxytocin which are newer to me, do you think new pharmaceuticals may soon hit the market or even make a difference regarding the treatment of psychopathy? The differences with autism sound promising given how pervasive ASD is, granted the two disorders are so different.
I'm personally skeptical about medications that affect something like oxytocin especially with schizophrenia/bipolar disorder where other neurotransmitters like dopamine are so sensitive.
Probably not. The research is an absolute mess, and for them to be able to even have a clue on how psychopathic brains work they would first have to entirely overhaul how, where, and in who it is studied, the perimeters of the actual studies, how the cohorts are decided, the people that are ineligible for the studies (like drug addicts and TBIs, not to mention criminals) before they could even conceive of "treatments" for psychopathy.
Even in the circumstances that all of those things are met, psychopathy is not a disorder, and does not need treatment. I have no interest in being anyone other than myself. No psychopath wants to be someone other than who they are.
It is interesting to read your personal experience of ASPD, and that's a hell of a bummer that some affected people dont have the psycopathic detachment that enables happiness.
It's not just ASPD, all personality disorders have over 200 different combinations of traits and several different subtypes that cause a great deal of variety. The overlap comes in terms of life outcomes, that being the prevalence of ASPD in jail or long term substance use treatment.
They MIGHT be more likely to become corporate executives but that's hardly worth directing attention to considering what a low rate of antisocials do this, even if they're marginally more likely to do so than neurotypicals.
What makes the diagnosis useless is that the mental health world is so ill-equipped to deal with it to such a degree that you're better off hiding your diagnosis. Licensed therapists will look at someone with BPD and think "I can treat that!" yet an antisocial individual's behavior is "gross".
Anyone who has given the matter any thought knows I'm right when I say it's a waste of time and money to go to a neuropsychologist on your own admission and seek an ASPD diagnosis.
It's not all bad and the domains of IQ testing are interesting especially given the research about differences between VIQ and PIQ in conduct disorder and having some experience there. I got evaluated when I was 15 for CD and what was most absurd was that I still showed symptoms 9 months later which led to the doctors basically considering me an adolescent ASPD patient (callous/unemotional traits).
Yo, today I came up with an analogy for cognitive empathy vs. emotional empathy that I'd like to put out there: it boils down to the key differences between a RPG and a MMORPG.
- Neurotypicals are all playing a MMORPG and having a predominantly emotional experience; they live through their shared, collective instincts - and their emotions resonate and amplify one another directly, often without being sorted through an internal mental and emotional buffer. The upside of this mode is how it potentiates the base experience. The downside of this mode is being prone to peer pressure and manipulation (both as agent or victim). In extreme cases, this mode degenerates into emotional instability, hysteria and chaos.
- The Neurodiverse are playing a offline RPG and having a predominantly mental experience; they live through their minds as in factor 1 ASPD ( or hearts, as in ASD) and are only attuned to their own feelings (no multiplayer mode). They live IN the buffer, which creates a sort of cognitive insulation that can be protective of external influences - that's the upside. The downside is getting detached from (or at least unencumbered by) the collective instincts. In extreme cases, this mode can degenerate into inhumane callousness and tyranny.
Having only Cognitive empathy means operating from the mental dimensions exclusively. From this perspective, life is akin to a traditional offline RPG in which all people are NPC's, and only those within our inner circle - or those who otherwise significantly help shape up our personal narrative - are eventually fleshed out as full-blown characters.
Despite their importance to the player's narrative, the character cast from a offline RPG is nonetheless comprised of distinctively different entities from the player/protagonist. All you this makes for a more linear, story-drive, stable experience since there is a sort of "circuit breaker" in place keeping all the millions of players from interfacing directly within another in either a constructive or a disruptive way towards the story (within the actual game, that is; they can still very much bond indirectly by relating to how other people also share their love for the game) .
Having Emotional Empathy is more akin to playing a MMORPG. In this mode, the experience hinges around connecting and interacting with other players, which gets prioritized over the narrative (in some cases the later is almost negligible) - and every player's choices clearly and causally affect everyone else. That's what living in the emotional realms feels like. It can be conceptualized as a sort of multiplier that augments or hampers one's individual experience playing the game. In this affective mode, the story takes second stage to the shared emotions aka human bonding.
Hm, that turned out longer than I expected. Thankyou for reading through my speculations. I appreciate in advance any thoughts and remarks anyone out here may have, regarding this concept.
Hey Athena, do you enjoy playing MMORPG's ( or other games that hinge around online group mechanics), I wonder?
I also do not play online games or watch group sports, but my reasoning is different - it doesn't at all *feel* real to me. It feels like fake superficial bonding for its own sake.
That's also my reasoning for not taking interest in convention and social customs.
I always get the feeling people keep playing one another (as well as playing themselves) and I find that's a waste of perfectly good Life.
We life life as though we're playing cards, failing to realize that life is a card castle... and we're each a single card.
In one of the books Athena has recommended, I can’t recall which at the moment, the experience of the psychopath is described as being one of two types. You are either a gamer or an alien. The gamer sees things rather as you have described I think and the alien is observing a very weird environment which he or she must negotiate inexplicable situations and behaviors of others.
I can imagine in your case, life must not feel like a game at all (since you never seen the instruction manual or figured out how to play) but more like a bad joke that people are playing behind your back.
Am I right? That was how I used to feel, growing up. Normal people always came across as incredibly weird to me, and I have always felt something was off about the way society works.
I still do not regard life as a game, and it still confuses the heck out of me that most people seem to.... but I'm starting to figure it out. A couple more decades of this and I might just get somewhere real.
Figuring people out is actually fun when you get into it, and it helps you figure yourself out as well. :-)
Life is just life to me. I am insulated from the general emotional exchange that people interact with one another through, and because of that they are strange to me. However, this separation has always existed so I am quite used to it.
That's what I imagine the neurotypical perspective is like, btw.
I do relate with it and genuinely appreciate the candid simplicity of such view... but all the while, it feels to me like skimming the surface and I'm a deep see dweller.
I a, very different - I would rate on high oxytocin for many of the reasons mentioned in your article, both for good or ill. I love especially your distinction between the brainstem fight/flight and the emotional fight/flight response, which I can feel as distinct. For example, playing airsoft or paintball (which can be enormously fun) is very different from being afraid of a person's emotional or social behavior. As a third scenario: Having a bayonet mounted on a rifle accidentally approach your chest has three responses, first the brainstem one, and then the limbic one, and then the mental processing of the event.
What is crystallizing in my mind is that what matters ultimately is deed (thoughts, words, and actions ) and truth. The rest is subject to interpretation and therefore not to be pinned as reality. Therefore it is so important for me to reassure myself that what you are sharing about yourself is a truthful "testimony" rather than a construction or projection, in other words some sort of lie either by false interpretaton or cut from whole cloth. But that is difficult if not impossible to figure out online, at least I need more skills to be sure of my own assesment.
This post makes a lot of sense. There are some aspects of feeling that leave me "empty" (as in not getting it; not good, not bad, just not there as others seem to experience it). Certain things just don't register for me. As a kid in grade school and high school, sometimes I'd notice some people would behave off toward me. I would go up to them and ask point blank if I had done something to offend them. If the answer was no, then I'd just say, "OK" and walk away. I was curious to understand what I was seeing, so I asked. Their behaviors were often based on emotions that had nothing to do with me, so I concluded it was not my problem. Often, NT reactions can be enjoyable. Sometimes, irritating.
So I read through your emotions again, and I'm no professional here. I'm someone who has very deep and sometimes problematic emotions.
I can easily become overwhelmed.
I think that maybe some of the emotions that you're not sure you have, even though they are listed as emotions, are there it seems, however they may be so low on your radar that when you compare them to an NT, they seem to turned down. Like they are just a blip on your radar.
What I'm trying to say is you probably have them, but due the the fact that you are a logical thinker and that they are so turned down, you think they aren't there as an emotion.
The fact that you acknowledge you have discust or whatever was on your list means that you recognize the emotion listed. I'm thinking the ones you doubt are just so low you're not sure you have them, perhaps.
I think the key takeaway here is that for some emotions, Athena just doesn't have them at all at all. We are doing ourselves a disservice if we fail to get our head around that and around what psychopathy actually is, especially as we have this resource here of frank discussion of the matter.
If getting something from person A and B needs you to appear shy and anxious for one and bold, confident for other, wouldn't that change in personality be very obvious to people who know you , who might become suspicious? Has that ever happened to you ? And if not, how do you avoid that?
Yes, that would be quite obvious, which is why a mask cannot be the inconsistent. You can't be two different people, you simply have to be one person with varying aspects that don't necessarily contrast one another, but instead can be seen as a continuation of the same person.
Awesome article. Very THOROUGH. And a fabulous graphic, too.
Thank you for writing explicitly about emotions that you, and psychopaths generally, do and do not feel. I was looking for exactly this information the other day (knowing you'd written about it somewhere), and couldn't find it. (Of course, silly me, I didn't try googling it for Quora stuff.)
This is brilliant. Late here, my mind is shutting down for the night, have favourited, will re read and digest properly tomorrow. So much of what I wanted to ask is answered here. :)
I am an empath, and I had no idea how powerful a role oxytocin can play. Your article has been so illuminating to me about my own condition, which could perhaps be considered an inverse to your own (not a precise inverse, maybe. I don't know). I often wish I could just "turn off" my emotions, and your description of emotional empathy, or "hot empathy," (in your article "Empathy Switch" https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/empathy-switch) is so acutely felt by me- I often feel like I am literally catching other people's emotions. It's exhausting. Imagine expending your energy and time trying to learn how to put your emotions in the back seat and let your brain do all the driving. Reading your descriptions of how you process things is so alien and yet also so calming. It feels amazing to put myself in your shoes (cognitive empathy, all things considered!) and imagine living as you do. What a relief to not be overwhelmed at all times by emotion. Thank you for your willingness to write so exhaustively about your experience as a psychopath. I won't go so far as to wish I were a psychopath myself, as there are definite rewards to being able to experience emotions the way neurotypicals feel them. But what an interesting world it could be if we actually could mute or amplify our emotions at will. Feeling too much? Mute. Feeling too little? Amplify. It seems that you would not want to amplify your emotions if given the chance. Is that true?
Hmm, I don't think that it is. Certainly people get impatient when they are in desperate need of a restroom but someone has been occupying it for the better part of a half hour. The emotional response comes from the impatience, but the impatience itself is something else entirely.
I have been impatient many times. Such as when someone is asking me something but there is a whole irrelevant backstory that I am subjected to before they ask whatever they want to know.
Well medical wise I'm diagnosed shizo affective disorder, yet even I found out a model to lie indiscrimately and without guilt.
Basically the brain is wired to take in stories and accept them as most likely reality. Most people try to tell honest stories most likely for the fact of fearing to be found out.(I can't deduce that yet)
In so far if one person ceases his fear to be found out - that is a self training - and realises that we are all drops in an ocean and that each drop cares most about her/his own stories going on in the mind, then one can deduce that most likely in small things no one is interested in investigating others people stories.
So by taking away the emotional response, pain loses its scariness. Then all kinds of pain just become a 'discomfort'. Sometimes I feel like being a psychopath gives better quality of life ( in some cases at least).
I am not a psychopath, I am officially diagnosed with unspecified dissociative disorder, but my emotional experience seems to be pretty similar to yours. I don’t feel emotional empathy, love, trust, jealousy, my remorse is cognitive only too, I don’t bond. The emotions that I do feel I do not feel deeply, they are over as soon as they are over. My default emotional state is a mix of content and boredom, though not as severe as yours, as well. These are not all similarities that there are, there are more and it is easier to name the differences.
These are that I can experience anxiety and some form of fear, some form of sadness, some form of disgust and get excited.
I don’t have general anxiety and phobias, I only have them in the situations where there is a threat or possibility of a threat, they are more than and are different from fight or flight response, but are less than and different from common anxiety and fear. Fear for me is more of not wanting something to happen. I can get sad, but I don’t remember when I was sad last time and there are times when I forget what sadness even feels like and feeling it in situations I know I have felt it in before seems bizarre. I don’t get disgusted by sights, but do get disgusted by smells and tastes, some if they are intense enough, can make me gag.
Another thing that I can experience is dissociation, or what I call dissociation. Here is where the confusion can arise. There are a lot of dissociative experiences that I have, but there is a major difference between how some of them look like in my case and in conventional cases of dissociative disorders. First is that in my case they are triggered at will, consciously or unconsciously, but not by anxiety or stress. In situations where I can get anxious, even if I was dissociated before, I usually get less dissociated and stress I don’t remember ever experiencing, while some sort of dissociation has been around as long as I remember. I don’t have a standard dissociative response to potentially traumatic events other people with dissociative disorders have, I don’t get traumatized at all or even deeply emotionally affected when such events occur. But I can dissociate when I choose to or rarely for no apparent reason.
Another thing is that while for most people with such disorders their normal state is the one in which they can experience certain emotions and pathological state is the one in which they are dissociated from them, for me it’s the opposite. Some emotions I can only experience when I trigger them at will and some are not quite real, and are a product of dissociation. Sadness, for example, for me is not a product of dissociation, but I only feel it when I trigger it. Attachment on another hand is not, for a long time I didn’t know it could be felt and only after I learnt about it did my mind try to generate its version of it, in my case being perceiving people partly like I perceive my consciousness and desiring to be with them as a way to reconnect with it. Which is, as I learnt, not like other people feel attachment. Manufactured emotions feel similarly to each other, are pretty different to how other people describe how they feel and are usually accompanied by somatic symptoms, like dizziness or problems with hearing. The way I trigger normal emotions, like sadness, is also different from how other people say they trigger emotions. To feel it, for example, I just dissociate with an intension to feel a combination of physical feelings and not by thinking about something sad. It can also be triggered as a response to anything, to something that I like, or something that isn’t supposed to cause any reaction at all, without a reason and be removed the same way. Same goes for other emotions, those that I can feel or my mind’s versions of emotions I cannot feel I know about. It’s a complicated experience and I am not sure I can describe it well lol.
I certainly don’t have psychopathy, I don’t think I am neurotypical either and my diagnosis doesn’t really match my experience as well. I have nearly all traits seen in psychopathy and several significant dissociative traits, both of which in it’s pure form, cannot be present together. Dissociation is not common in people high on psychopathic spectrum, and neither are psychopathic traits in people with severe dissociation. I happen to have both, however. Me and my acquaintances who specialize in neuroscience came up with several theories as for what could explain that, two of which have already proved wrong. One is that it could be that I have a brain type prone to dissociation, and a brain tumor or lesions that cause my emotional experience to be similar to psychopathic one. It could be the opposite, that I have a brain type more similar to a psychopathic one and brain tumor or lesions that cause the dissociative experiences. The least probable theory but the one that makes the most sense to me is that I could have a brain type
independent from both psychopathy and dissociation condition, that makes me have a similar to psychopathic experience, and also be able to control functioning of some of the brain zones to a degree, creating experience similar to dissociation or involving dissociation. I did an mri recently and they didn’t find anything, the later theory is that, very unlikely to prove true. I was planning to get a functional mri to test it, but I am not sure when I will be able to do it considering Covid situation in my country.
A possibility worth considering might be that you're a high functioning schizoid - one who has managed to get a grasp on their adaptation and use it productively. SPD is a dissociative disorder, and like most such conditions it runs on a spectrum.
Dissociation typically shapes up as a self-protective compartmentalization of body-emotions | mind. I have observed this can sometimes make a person snap into a hyper-rational state that is not unlike the experience described by Athena.
This would not be necessarily apparent in a MRI since it's not a baseline wiring but rather a sort of shifting into different self-states depending on the circumstances. A fMRI could allow to check this if you were asked to focus on different tasks and processing modes to compare how that changes your brain metabolism.
I imagine the mechanism of it could be similar to the sort of "emotional circuit breaker" described in this article, except it doesn't return you to a baseline but instead makes you snap into different cognitive modes.
Much like factor 1 psychopathy and ASD, SPD can cause both positive and negative repercussions - but available clinical research understandably over focuses on the negatives, since they're looking for a way to remedy them.
In fact, the positive sides to all these three conditions could be somewhat analog, in that they revolve around a self-protective emotional insulation that shields a person from outside influences.
It's possible that you have grown accustomed to a dissociate state, and what you regard as dissociation is actually ... tentative association (integration?). Which then inevitably trips the circuit breaker and brings you back to the rational baseline where you already feel at home, out of habit.
Agreed!
For Athena --> this is argument #2 in favor of my last reply regarding schizoid PD being a candidate for the revised psychopathy scale from the NT point of view ^_^
No. There is no similarity. Schizoids do not think, feel, act, or have the brain structure, origin, or chemical processing of psychopaths.
Very well. Keep in mind I'm a merely unprofessional speculator. I hope you do not take offense, since that was not my intention.
I don’t, don’t worry. I felt there was a need to clarify what I meant in my first comment, because from what I wrote it was not clear. I think I will edit it.
As I said, my situation is complicated. I also suck at writing.
Your 'condition' is certainly a puzzling mixture. I can only hope that the future brings you a more reliable diagnosis (because knowledge really is power) and that meanwhile you can become more comfortable in yourself.
BTW, I admire your "but why do you care?" motif. I decided to adopt this--kind of to "channel" your attitude--during a recent "we have to talk" with my SO. As in, I decided not to get upset about whatever reaction he might have to what I wanted to say. So I actually did that. Yes, I felt some tension/anxiety around speaking up, but was able to keep my focus on my end-goal of what I wanted to convey. And was successful in it.
I do admit, my success in "channeling" your attitude was likely also helped by the fact that I've been doing some very significant emotional-healing work recently, so my limbic NO NOT DOING THAT reaction was already not as intense as it has been in the past.
Anyway, point being THANK YOU for sharing your experience and point of view.
Congrats on the progress. I think that having less of an emotional investment in a conversation like that means that you will hear better, and also communicate better as well. When you are emotionally distant, you are more able to formulate your thoughts and present them with clear intention. At least, that is what I have observed.
Thanks! I would not describe what I did as "emotionally distant," though. More like I was determined not to take his reaction--whatever it was--personally. Basically, as an NT person, I'm hardwired to "care". I just decided not to get upset about whatever he felt. That was my own version of "but why do I care" how he feels?
That's fair
I was able to do this to some extent as a child and young person, to detach from bullying or people's judgement, but if anything it got harder over the years with people I have a bond with.
Makes sense. In some ways, bonds can become more important as one gets older and realizes all the ways they can get messed with. One factor that's been a hurdle for me is that I have had abandonment issues from a childhood trauma -- which got triggered by any thought that someone I cared about might possibly "leave me" in any sense. This trauma trigger completely shut me down (think limbic system reptile brain) at any point where limbic system thought I was "rocking the boat" in any way. So bottom line = I sympathize.
Still, Athena's basic question here, "Why do you care?", is pretty powerful. Especially if one explores around all the edges in the ways it feels relevant to you. Perhaps changing emphases: WHY do you care? Why DO you care? What does caring mean in this context? How does the other person's reactions/feelings impact you? And imagining for a moment that you, too, could not process oxytocin, how would the situation and your reaction be different? Is there anything you can take from that imagining that will help you in this situation? And so on.
Again, wishing you well in your upcoming conversations.
That's me as well. I was repeatedly threatened with being sent away as a child, while on other occasions being told how wrong it was for Mrs So and So or whoever to threaten to send their child away. Huh? Try to make sense of that as a small kid! Constant conflict in the family resulted in living in permanenet fear of losing all physical and emotional safety. The upshot of this is that if as a passenger I get out of the car to take a photo, there is a wave of fear that the driver will just drive off. Ridiculous, but it's wired in.
In life generally, I have moved away from needing other people's support and gradually learned to do very intimidating things on my own, that was a lot of work. But in emotional relationships, I have always been terrified of anger in my partner, not fearing violence, but thinking this is it, I've messed up, and it ruined, it's over, oh god, oh god. Utter panic, anticipatory grief, a cascade of intolerable physical sensations and unmanageable emotions. And so we do a lot of things we shouldnt just to keep the peace. So since you are similar, I am encouraged that you have got to a better level of managing than I have thus far, and I will definitely be channeling Athena as best I can and keeping your success in mind.
Since so many situations in my life required me to rehearse and role play being someone else (because the real me couldn't possibly do such things, fake it till you make it), it's annoying that I can't 'be' someone stronger and more detached during emotional conflicts, but I'll be giving it my best shot.
What's made the biggest difference for me in my healing journey is a process called memory reconsolidation. It turns out that memories have two parts -- the "just the facts" events, and the emotional component. While the fact event memory is quite robust, it turns out that our brains can "rewrite" a new version of the emotional component. I recommend you look into finding someone who can do this process with/for you. It's important to get all the pieces of the process done correctly, because otherwise it doesn't "take". Here's a link to the fellow I worked with.
https://liverpoolpsychotherapy.co.uk/
That's awesome for you, and encouraging for me, as I have some difficult conversations with a huge emotional load coming up. I will try my best to do as you did.
Good luck in your conversations
Indeed, conversations with huge emotional loads are challenging. I just clarified to Athena's comment (about "emotionally distant") on my comment -- you may want to read that.
I think there's a subtle difference between not caring what someone thinks or feels, and not taking their reaction personally. And there's also that whole dimension of trying to exercise control -- ie, trying to avoid conflict and bad feelings. To the degree that I often rehearse in my head half a gazillion different approaches.
I still do a fair amount of this pre-encounter rehearsing, but what I've noticed is that it's way easier for me to just start talking and continue, and as I said to stay focused on my goal in the discussion. I do attribute half of this to my recent spiritual healing work; the other half to "channeling" Athena.
I suppose I kind of morphed her "why do you care?" question into "why do you get upset about it?" As an NT type of person, I can't avoid caring. It's hardwired into the oxytocin. But getting upset is more of a choice, something I can avoid doing.
Wishing you the best of luck in your upcoming difficult conversations!
Yes these are subtle distinctions but I see what you mean. It seems a bit crazy that we have to analyse and attempt to control our mental and emotional landscapes in such detail, and as you say, rehearse words and try to control our responses and it's all too much! So your success is great. Thanks for the wishes.
That is largely true, and yet, it's not quite that simple (because things rarely are!). There are odd occasions when hightened emotion in discussion actually leads to a kind of inspired flow state of inspiration, not unlike artistic creativity that seems to come from nowhere, and you are left wondering just where your words came from, where those ideas were born, how did it all come together so well? In my experience this does not occur in detached clinical discussions. Sometimes, rarely, emotion actually results in Better and More, far beyond expectations, perhaps the brain just responds particularly well to the 'emergency'.. But it's unreliable and not something to count on, so broadly I agree with you.
This one definitely helped differentiate antisocial PD from psychopathy, we have a lot more negative emotions and maybe it's the oxytocin factor which could explain the potential ADHD-psychopathy link as well. I've always thought this link could be an error of assumption, but children born with psychopathy may be diagnosed with ADHD due to their inattentiveness when it comes to the emotions of others.
Even if antisocials don't experience empathy or remorse, we absolutely experience anger to the point of rage, envy/jealousy, disgust and not to mention we're some of the least trusting of others. The price we pay though is that we don't have that same contentedness or happiness that psychopaths have at all and I've heard some antisocials say they've never felt happiness.
Interesting that you bring up contempt though. I've seen antisocials bring up contempt towards others for a very similar reason you did, the allegory for this would be stealing from a homeless person basically. Even if I don't feel bad for the homeless guy, it's still pathetic.
My question is: with these studies on oxytocin which are newer to me, do you think new pharmaceuticals may soon hit the market or even make a difference regarding the treatment of psychopathy? The differences with autism sound promising given how pervasive ASD is, granted the two disorders are so different.
I'm personally skeptical about medications that affect something like oxytocin especially with schizophrenia/bipolar disorder where other neurotransmitters like dopamine are so sensitive.
Probably not. The research is an absolute mess, and for them to be able to even have a clue on how psychopathic brains work they would first have to entirely overhaul how, where, and in who it is studied, the perimeters of the actual studies, how the cohorts are decided, the people that are ineligible for the studies (like drug addicts and TBIs, not to mention criminals) before they could even conceive of "treatments" for psychopathy.
Even in the circumstances that all of those things are met, psychopathy is not a disorder, and does not need treatment. I have no interest in being anyone other than myself. No psychopath wants to be someone other than who they are.
It is interesting to read your personal experience of ASPD, and that's a hell of a bummer that some affected people dont have the psycopathic detachment that enables happiness.
Thus why ASPD is such a poor diagnosis. It has such a broad spectrum of people that it covers that it renders itself pointless.
It's not just ASPD, all personality disorders have over 200 different combinations of traits and several different subtypes that cause a great deal of variety. The overlap comes in terms of life outcomes, that being the prevalence of ASPD in jail or long term substance use treatment.
They MIGHT be more likely to become corporate executives but that's hardly worth directing attention to considering what a low rate of antisocials do this, even if they're marginally more likely to do so than neurotypicals.
What makes the diagnosis useless is that the mental health world is so ill-equipped to deal with it to such a degree that you're better off hiding your diagnosis. Licensed therapists will look at someone with BPD and think "I can treat that!" yet an antisocial individual's behavior is "gross".
Anyone who has given the matter any thought knows I'm right when I say it's a waste of time and money to go to a neuropsychologist on your own admission and seek an ASPD diagnosis.
Yes, I would agree with that, and I am someone who did exactly that. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.
It's not all bad and the domains of IQ testing are interesting especially given the research about differences between VIQ and PIQ in conduct disorder and having some experience there. I got evaluated when I was 15 for CD and what was most absurd was that I still showed symptoms 9 months later which led to the doctors basically considering me an adolescent ASPD patient (callous/unemotional traits).
The possible fallout of a diagnosis is why I suggest avoiding it.
Yo, today I came up with an analogy for cognitive empathy vs. emotional empathy that I'd like to put out there: it boils down to the key differences between a RPG and a MMORPG.
- Neurotypicals are all playing a MMORPG and having a predominantly emotional experience; they live through their shared, collective instincts - and their emotions resonate and amplify one another directly, often without being sorted through an internal mental and emotional buffer. The upside of this mode is how it potentiates the base experience. The downside of this mode is being prone to peer pressure and manipulation (both as agent or victim). In extreme cases, this mode degenerates into emotional instability, hysteria and chaos.
- The Neurodiverse are playing a offline RPG and having a predominantly mental experience; they live through their minds as in factor 1 ASPD ( or hearts, as in ASD) and are only attuned to their own feelings (no multiplayer mode). They live IN the buffer, which creates a sort of cognitive insulation that can be protective of external influences - that's the upside. The downside is getting detached from (or at least unencumbered by) the collective instincts. In extreme cases, this mode can degenerate into inhumane callousness and tyranny.
Having only Cognitive empathy means operating from the mental dimensions exclusively. From this perspective, life is akin to a traditional offline RPG in which all people are NPC's, and only those within our inner circle - or those who otherwise significantly help shape up our personal narrative - are eventually fleshed out as full-blown characters.
Despite their importance to the player's narrative, the character cast from a offline RPG is nonetheless comprised of distinctively different entities from the player/protagonist. All you this makes for a more linear, story-drive, stable experience since there is a sort of "circuit breaker" in place keeping all the millions of players from interfacing directly within another in either a constructive or a disruptive way towards the story (within the actual game, that is; they can still very much bond indirectly by relating to how other people also share their love for the game) .
Having Emotional Empathy is more akin to playing a MMORPG. In this mode, the experience hinges around connecting and interacting with other players, which gets prioritized over the narrative (in some cases the later is almost negligible) - and every player's choices clearly and causally affect everyone else. That's what living in the emotional realms feels like. It can be conceptualized as a sort of multiplier that augments or hampers one's individual experience playing the game. In this affective mode, the story takes second stage to the shared emotions aka human bonding.
Hm, that turned out longer than I expected. Thankyou for reading through my speculations. I appreciate in advance any thoughts and remarks anyone out here may have, regarding this concept.
Hey Athena, do you enjoy playing MMORPG's ( or other games that hinge around online group mechanics), I wonder?
No. I do not play well with others. They get in my way. So you may be on to something.
I also do not play online games or watch group sports, but my reasoning is different - it doesn't at all *feel* real to me. It feels like fake superficial bonding for its own sake.
That's also my reasoning for not taking interest in convention and social customs.
I always get the feeling people keep playing one another (as well as playing themselves) and I find that's a waste of perfectly good Life.
We life life as though we're playing cards, failing to realize that life is a card castle... and we're each a single card.
Truth for me, too. I like them but only from a distance.
In one of the books Athena has recommended, I can’t recall which at the moment, the experience of the psychopath is described as being one of two types. You are either a gamer or an alien. The gamer sees things rather as you have described I think and the alien is observing a very weird environment which he or she must negotiate inexplicable situations and behaviors of others.
I am an alien myself
I can imagine in your case, life must not feel like a game at all (since you never seen the instruction manual or figured out how to play) but more like a bad joke that people are playing behind your back.
Am I right? That was how I used to feel, growing up. Normal people always came across as incredibly weird to me, and I have always felt something was off about the way society works.
I still do not regard life as a game, and it still confuses the heck out of me that most people seem to.... but I'm starting to figure it out. A couple more decades of this and I might just get somewhere real.
Figuring people out is actually fun when you get into it, and it helps you figure yourself out as well. :-)
Life is just life to me. I am insulated from the general emotional exchange that people interact with one another through, and because of that they are strange to me. However, this separation has always existed so I am quite used to it.
Life, oh life. Turututu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKtrWU4zaaI
That's what I imagine the neurotypical perspective is like, btw.
I do relate with it and genuinely appreciate the candid simplicity of such view... but all the while, it feels to me like skimming the surface and I'm a deep see dweller.
To each, their own. Oh, life.
I will retain my headcanon, which is that Oh Life is a meaningful satire of some kind.
I have no such insulation, and that fact has posed a problem for me in my daily life.
I a, very different - I would rate on high oxytocin for many of the reasons mentioned in your article, both for good or ill. I love especially your distinction between the brainstem fight/flight and the emotional fight/flight response, which I can feel as distinct. For example, playing airsoft or paintball (which can be enormously fun) is very different from being afraid of a person's emotional or social behavior. As a third scenario: Having a bayonet mounted on a rifle accidentally approach your chest has three responses, first the brainstem one, and then the limbic one, and then the mental processing of the event.
What is crystallizing in my mind is that what matters ultimately is deed (thoughts, words, and actions ) and truth. The rest is subject to interpretation and therefore not to be pinned as reality. Therefore it is so important for me to reassure myself that what you are sharing about yourself is a truthful "testimony" rather than a construction or projection, in other words some sort of lie either by false interpretaton or cut from whole cloth. But that is difficult if not impossible to figure out online, at least I need more skills to be sure of my own assesment.
This post makes a lot of sense. There are some aspects of feeling that leave me "empty" (as in not getting it; not good, not bad, just not there as others seem to experience it). Certain things just don't register for me. As a kid in grade school and high school, sometimes I'd notice some people would behave off toward me. I would go up to them and ask point blank if I had done something to offend them. If the answer was no, then I'd just say, "OK" and walk away. I was curious to understand what I was seeing, so I asked. Their behaviors were often based on emotions that had nothing to do with me, so I concluded it was not my problem. Often, NT reactions can be enjoyable. Sometimes, irritating.
Great post btw,
So I read through your emotions again, and I'm no professional here. I'm someone who has very deep and sometimes problematic emotions.
I can easily become overwhelmed.
I think that maybe some of the emotions that you're not sure you have, even though they are listed as emotions, are there it seems, however they may be so low on your radar that when you compare them to an NT, they seem to turned down. Like they are just a blip on your radar.
What I'm trying to say is you probably have them, but due the the fact that you are a logical thinker and that they are so turned down, you think they aren't there as an emotion.
The fact that you acknowledge you have discust or whatever was on your list means that you recognize the emotion listed. I'm thinking the ones you doubt are just so low you're not sure you have them, perhaps.
I think the key takeaway here is that for some emotions, Athena just doesn't have them at all at all. We are doing ourselves a disservice if we fail to get our head around that and around what psychopathy actually is, especially as we have this resource here of frank discussion of the matter.
Agreed, I was referring to the ones she was unsure of.
Fair enough!
If getting something from person A and B needs you to appear shy and anxious for one and bold, confident for other, wouldn't that change in personality be very obvious to people who know you , who might become suspicious? Has that ever happened to you ? And if not, how do you avoid that?
Yes, that would be quite obvious, which is why a mask cannot be the inconsistent. You can't be two different people, you simply have to be one person with varying aspects that don't necessarily contrast one another, but instead can be seen as a continuation of the same person.
Awesome article. Very THOROUGH. And a fabulous graphic, too.
Thank you for writing explicitly about emotions that you, and psychopaths generally, do and do not feel. I was looking for exactly this information the other day (knowing you'd written about it somewhere), and couldn't find it. (Of course, silly me, I didn't try googling it for Quora stuff.)
Quora doesn't have the best search feature
True, though I generally do either Google or DuckDuckGo. Point being, I *could* have searched for your Quora stuff and didn't.
Interesting how oxytocin and depression are linked. Didn't know that one!
Indeed, it is quite interesting
This is brilliant. Late here, my mind is shutting down for the night, have favourited, will re read and digest properly tomorrow. So much of what I wanted to ask is answered here. :)
Excellent
This reading was so interesting, Athena. Thank you for writing it and explaining things so well. It is very helpful.
Thank you for reading my writing
I am an empath, and I had no idea how powerful a role oxytocin can play. Your article has been so illuminating to me about my own condition, which could perhaps be considered an inverse to your own (not a precise inverse, maybe. I don't know). I often wish I could just "turn off" my emotions, and your description of emotional empathy, or "hot empathy," (in your article "Empathy Switch" https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/empathy-switch) is so acutely felt by me- I often feel like I am literally catching other people's emotions. It's exhausting. Imagine expending your energy and time trying to learn how to put your emotions in the back seat and let your brain do all the driving. Reading your descriptions of how you process things is so alien and yet also so calming. It feels amazing to put myself in your shoes (cognitive empathy, all things considered!) and imagine living as you do. What a relief to not be overwhelmed at all times by emotion. Thank you for your willingness to write so exhaustively about your experience as a psychopath. I won't go so far as to wish I were a psychopath myself, as there are definite rewards to being able to experience emotions the way neurotypicals feel them. But what an interesting world it could be if we actually could mute or amplify our emotions at will. Feeling too much? Mute. Feeling too little? Amplify. It seems that you would not want to amplify your emotions if given the chance. Is that true?
It is. I am not particularly interested in being different than I am, but that isn't to say that I wouldn't try it to have the experience.
Do psychopaths get impatient?
Would you, for example, get bored of walking somewhere interesting, and decide to run, so that you would get there faster?
Why would getting there faster be of any benefit?
Less time spent being bored?
But it was only an example. I was just wondering if you ever get impatient, or is that an emotional reaction?
Hmm, I don't think that it is. Certainly people get impatient when they are in desperate need of a restroom but someone has been occupying it for the better part of a half hour. The emotional response comes from the impatience, but the impatience itself is something else entirely.
I have been impatient many times. Such as when someone is asking me something but there is a whole irrelevant backstory that I am subjected to before they ask whatever they want to know.
That makes sense…
Thanks for answering.
Well medical wise I'm diagnosed shizo affective disorder, yet even I found out a model to lie indiscrimately and without guilt.
Basically the brain is wired to take in stories and accept them as most likely reality. Most people try to tell honest stories most likely for the fact of fearing to be found out.(I can't deduce that yet)
In so far if one person ceases his fear to be found out - that is a self training - and realises that we are all drops in an ocean and that each drop cares most about her/his own stories going on in the mind, then one can deduce that most likely in small things no one is interested in investigating others people stories.
Is pain muted? Or is it comparable to NTs?
I actually addressed this here:
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/emotional-experiences-of-physical
So by taking away the emotional response, pain loses its scariness. Then all kinds of pain just become a 'discomfort'. Sometimes I feel like being a psychopath gives better quality of life ( in some cases at least).
It may indeed.