Again, a very interesting post. Reading these make me aware of certain traits both my wife and I share. We’re both extremely independent and neither of us will tolerate being controlled by the other person. I think that was probably why marriage was ultimately something I accepted, because neither of us were interested in marriage for the sake of a ceremony; but it was a practical consideration so we could have the option to choose which country we lived in. Otherwise, we would have just continued to live together unmarried.
We also trust each other totally. If I’m meeting friends, even if they are female friends, my wife would never think there was anything untoward going on. Her main concern would be that I would spend too much money on cocaine, but as she enjoys taking it herself - it would be a roll of the eyes from her and then promptly forgotten about.
Being Thai, she lives in the moment. Plans happen as we go along. Everything is spontaneous. In the UK it’s harder to live like that as we are confined by certain rules eg getting fined if our son misses school. In Thailand I’d say, “shall we go and stay up in the mountain resort in Pai tomorrow?” and she’d either agree (usually) or disagree. Then we’d ask our son, “Do you want to go on holiday tomorrow, to the resort with the wooden elephants that spray water from their trunks into the swimming pool?”
Thank you for another very interesting post. I'm going to relate bits of this to my experience as one autistic female, like I've done before.
Some of the similarities and differences between my experience and what I understand you to be saying, Athena, make me think that I do have functioning oxytocin receptors. However either they function differently than NT ones, or my brain and sensory setup causes them to be activated by different experiences than most NTs.
The "head over heels in love" thing... omg, I think I had two "crushes" in my life, ever, that seemed chemical. I have found various people "hot", but that's a different thing I think, not sure what receptors are involved in that. A.J. as Lara Croft, yep!!! :-)
Rather than the list of "call, text, ..." that does seem to be critical for many NTs, I feel most connected to people when working toward a common, valued, goal -- alongside them. Snippets of interaction! Not having to have deep soulful eye contact, which I think took me decades to *not* have my brain interpret as a tiger staring at me while about to rip my throat out. Only kidding a little. There is a lot more to that, being watched was actually dangerous many times when I was a kid, so it's hard to separate neurotype from childhood experience. Too long a story!
But most autistics don't have the same positive from eye contact that NTs have, as I understand it.
I felt the most "at home" in a cooperative household for many years, with people I valued. Perhaps others were not NTs, I'm pretty sure of that actually. But I value certain kinds of low-key community greatly; is it oxytocin? I have no idea...
The one thing that I do have for sure... a love of snuggling. But not just any touch, it can be way too much.
If you love snuggling you have oxytocin doing something in your brain and body. I wonder if there are multiple versions of these receptors. How many people in the world could they have possibly studied to come up with the notion of "normal" when it comes to oxytocin and how it binds, doesn't bind, reacts, doesn't react? I am guessing that there is a great deal that is assumed to be "settled science" that is really just the tip of the iceberg.
Uh oh, I just did a Google Scholar search on "oxytocin and autism" and feel nauseated now... turns out that some researchers are dosing autistic kids up with oxytocin to try to get them to act more "normal". Maybe the kids will be proper drug-using partygoers now instead of mathematicians.
It's tricky, there is the pressure from outside like that, which is easier for me to disagree with. But then, some autistic people actually want to be non-autistic, like whatever they think "normal" is, esp. when young or if their differences have gotten in the way of things they wanted to do or be. Many of those don't seem to have considered that society could be structured differently, some NTs could be more tolerant, all sorts of things could be different that would enable those options for them. But many are in environments in which considering that would be, at the least, very difficult for some neurotypes. Maybe not for some psychopaths?
An example of that... many nonspeaking autistics aren't even taught to type as kids by their families, which seems like such a really basic thing... the focus is on getting them to "act normal" I guess, and type-to-speech isn't "normal".
This video has a little of the feel-good "inspiration porn" stuff going on, imo... but still, she mentions that issue plus others, and I am glad that the story got a bit of coverage.
Very interesting read. What I have never understood with people and relationships (although I consider myself NT, I don't know for sure I'm under 25 and never been tested for anything) is people's inability to deal with rejection. The anger, the disbelief, usually aggression and hurling insults - that's some of the reactions I dealt with. I'm speaking from a perspective of a straight woman, so I don't know how other women react to rejection. However, I usually shrug it off and move on very quickly - I have been rejected twice, and although it was disappointing it was not a big deal. I never understood why men who have been rejected act this way. How is being aggressive and rude going to help you? Not to mention some men approach women in the dumbest way possible, sometimes even demanding their phone number or attention. Men (but also women who have a hard time dealing with rejection) who are reading this: no one owes you attention, their time or attraction. Bear it in mind.
Hi Abigail, I used to deal with rejection very poorly, and I can attempt to share the structure of it.
Simplistically, it’s a two-part function - one is the loss of whatever benefits emotional or otherwise that you’re receiving from, or imagine to receive from a potential partner, and the second part is taking the rejection personally, meaning that you feel that their assessment of you is both negative and valid.
Further, as a male I have experienced one-itis quite a bit, and so preposterously overvalue and idealize the female of my interest.
Eventually I sort it out that we don’t actually perceive the person of interest directly, but only through our own preconceived lenses and vice versa, they are not rejecting you per se, they’re rejecting a model of what they perceive to be you in thier own minds.
I do still experience the feeling of envy or yearning,(I’m still working on that) but the ego hit has diminished considerably.
That's an interesting perspective. Thanks and glad you have worked on your response to rejection. I believe it's normal to feel disappointed and angry (although I have not experienced that cause I am quite unemotional) but what I have never understood, is when people would hurl insults and get unreasonably aggressive at the person who rejected them. And I mean just rejected them, calmly explained they are not interested not laughed at them and mocked them. I don't understand these sort of reactions because I was raised by my parents that only idiots and children have a tantrum when they do not get what they want. I was raised to feel ashamed when I overreact to something and jump to insults and unreasonable anger. From my experience, that's not how a lot of individuals have been raised, however. The once I had the "pleasure" to deal with believed that they were right to get aggressive, have a tantrum and insult me - and then not an ounce of shame or reflect on their behaviour. To me, this is unimaginable. It's how I was raised and perhaps that I am generally a reflective person and always try to see both sides. That's why it shocks me when people do not do that, especially when they acted like unreasonable, entitled brats - and I am talking about people in their twenties and thirties, who you'd expect to be a bit more mature.
Regarding “hurl insults and get unreasonably aggressive at the person who rejected them”
I don’t do that or feel the impulse to do so, but I can imagine the hypothetical structures under it.
Rejection is taken as an affront to self worth, as an insult.
This prompts a feeling of low worth
This works it way thru the ego and persona
The reaction is an emotional counter attack - an immature emotional tactic to put the target on their level - you hurt my ego so I’ll hurt yours
Many people, men especially, erroneously believe that their value as a person is directly connected to their ability to attract women, to be a stud, to be able to pull chicks.
Consider the common insults: has a little d**k, can’t even get laid etc.
Once a guy frees himself from this preposterous standard, he is no longer affected by the ego slight.
Note that some women pull the same stunt, for example I’ve friend zoned a few women that were attracted to me, but the feeling wasn’t mutual, so they resorted to insults like “you think you’re hotter than me? Your gay! Etc.
"I could write a great deal about the emotional interactions and the pitfalls that they can become, but really this is long enough and it would triple it."
Yes, and we would read it with interest, triple away!
I don't think LIAR is applicable to neurotypicals saying they want honesty. There are a few factors here. One is the wanting a perfect world thing, with flattery being the truth, which is unrealistic of course, so ditch that. Another is HOPING that the content of the honesty will be something you can deal with, which, who knows, may be unrealistic. Then there's GENUINELY believing you can totally cope, but coming in for a shock, which was not necessarily unrealistic of you. The first may be a form of 'lying to yourself' but the latter two are just the result of conflicting needs within oneself and the unpredictability of what other people will come out with and how it will affect us.
It's not really different from any other type of situation where someone overestimated what they could handle, even situations where there is no interpersonal aspect. They want X experience, think it through, make an assessment, try it, and sometimes find that it was more than they bargained for. Over time, knowing what one wants will be refined. Meanwhile, it would not be accurate to call someone a 'liar' because they genuinely thought they wanted, say, a challenging adventure/15 minutes of fame/a sexual experiment/any other thing people sometimes get wrong.
You have been observing people closely. Willingness to become a mirror for the other person is often a requirement for NT relationships. I don’t make a very good mirror, I’ve learned. A high independence partnership is probably all I can handle sustainably.
The desire for an independent partner is of course totally legitimate, but as a sideline, when I was younger, that sort of declaration was a bit of a red flag, code for' immature person who didn't want to put much into a relationship and wanted licence to be an arse'. With an extra dimension of manipulative flattery in that the prospective partner might try to cast themselves as just that strong independent person even when they weren't up to the job, or shouldn't have had to deal with crap. It's a bit of a pitfall!
Coming from my perspective as someone that really does not want a high dependence relationship, it is because I really do not want one. However, I have learned over time that neurotypicals that say this tend to not be telling the truth. They are often the most dependent.
Yes, there are lots of good reasons not to want one. I haven't noticed people who say so being themselves dependant though, more trying to put a fashionable spin on telling partners not to expect much!
Those who turn out to actuallu be dependant themselves, well I guess it was wishful thinking and fake-it-till-you-make-it. It's scary for neurotypicals to feel vulnerable in a relationship, so on reflection maybe it's not surprising if they optimistically declare they are one way and then find they are the opposite.
I can't think of it as an annoying habit since it is such a part of neurotypical experience and part of our culture of people pep talking themselves through fears and uncertainties and being told to be confident and that they can do anything etc. Your psychopath's default confidence may mean you underestimate how much some neurotypicals' headspace and daily time is given over to encouraging self talk, it can be almost constant at times, of necessity. And like so many things, there is an upside and downside. Sometimes assumed confidence can be effective and lead in time to greater natural confidence and you do eventually 'make it'. Sometimes it fails utterly and people will collapse on a mountain, cause havoc for colleagues in a job they optimistically blagged their way into, piss off partners, and generally be a liability and a nuisance. But the alternative is hesitation and ongoing fearfullness and limited lives. So I can see no way around this. We only learn our abilities and limits with time and experience.
Your comment about dependant people stating one thing and turning out the other didn't initially ring true for me because I personally didn't do that with relationships. But looking back I did the same thing in so many areas of life, and found that will and determination did not match ability, and the results weren't pretty. So yeah, I then thought hey, those people are probably just doing this much wider thing in their love life as well.
I think your interpretation of my comment is interesting, but as someone who is asexual, aromantic, and autistic, I don't believe your projection applies.
Edit: I understand I am capable of "arsehole-ism" as much as the next human. However, more importantly, I've recognized that I don't possess the 'mirroring' neurology necessary for NT-partnered relationships and am self-aware enough to also realize I don't possess the mental energy required to mask that mirroring behavior long-term. Ergo, as a rule, I don't start things I can't maintain.
This is very interesting from a pw borderline pd. I am considered a "secondary psychopath"...the super reactive kind and I can only fall in love with psychopaths. Other personality types are unattractive to me. I really don't like attentive or clinging behavior, and I seem to have all of the traits of a typical psychopath, but I produce tons of oxytocin during sex and it's the oxytocin that ruins my relationships. So I really appreciate you sharing your insight with us. You are keeping me from causing anymore broken hearts, and preventing me from having mine broken again either. Thank you.
Right? I thought I would utilize it as it seems to be how people tend to depict relationships with psychopaths. It reminded me of the Love Fraud type stories.
Actually, that pretty much sums up how it feels for any partner’s dispassionate break up , or cheating scenario for NTs - at least before we’ve got some miles under our belt. Not much to envy, is there?
“I was in a relationship with a narcissistic sociopathic psychopath.”
Johnny Depp has said similar about his now ex wife Amber Heard I believe. While I think there is genuine room for doubt that label is 100% accurate I think it’s possible he could be at least somewhat right on the narcissistic side of things.
Not sure if you’re at all familiar with the current court trial going on with them? Appreciate you aren’t into celebrity gossip but occurred to me that because you sometimes write about narcissism/NPD you might have taken some interest.
I have caught different videos reporting on it. I do know that she was diagnosed with HPD and BPD. I was just asked over on Quora what made her turn into a psychopath... so that's super fun, pardon me while I try to remove my face from the desk. What I can say about her is that she is a very toxic person. If she gets help, then perhaps she can have a good and fulfilling life. If not, at least people will now at least know what they are getting into.
Oh no (on the quora part)! Yeah…that’s definitely my impression too (on the toxic person front). I listened to a video recording the other day and the way that she can be heard laughing and taunting strongly reminds me of a drunk person who has turned very nasty under alcohol influence!!
Definitely hope for the sake of the kid she’s adopted/who lives with her she soon gets some kind of wake up call on needing help. Agreeing it’s a good thing that at least more people are now aware that she’s toxic.
I think the kid was born through a segregate. That was mentioned in one of the reports that I saw about it. If she hasn't addressed he mental health issues, she will bring a great deal of harm to that child.
You know, I've been very curious about your take on the whole Amber Heard/Johnny Depp thing. I'm having way more fun than I would have thought, watching Rekieta Law, Emily D Baker, etc, comment on it. (I'm now imagining a 'Psychopaths react to trials' type uTube channel. Shame that your time is and interests are probably already full up!)
The body language analysts reacting to AH are also fun, although I was disappointed to notice recently that the one I like most (Behavior Panel) did a video on a psychopath who killed her children, in which the panel quoted Robert Hare. Like, a LOT. Granted, she was actually in prison so they had at least a little justification in citing him, but still. Bit of a turn off.
I know the YouTube channel you are referring to. I thought they were interesting at first glance but then did an entire episode about how Elizabeth Holmes was a psychopath and also somehow mentally and emotionally unstable... it was so poorly considered that it makes me wonder what happened to the teaching of critical thinking.
Yeah, that is a shame. I can't quite decide whether to write them off completely (thereby learning from the Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect) or just kind of try to sift through what they say and pick out the useful bits. In theory, option 2, but in practice probably option 1 since there's so many other interesting things competing for my attention!
(Neebs Gaming is currently winning the attention sweepstakes. The Subnautica supercut is freakin' hilarious, for anyone who's enough of a video game nerd to enjoy streams elevated to the level of art.)
I run a site in support for Johnny Depp on Quora. I have been following this since it started. He may have some narc tendencies. We all do to some degree. It bothered me as a domestic violence victim when I learned about how many women hit men. I was sitting in the shelter with people who's lives had been ruined by dv, but there were some that were using the system and laughing about it. And some women who were bragging about it. This infuriated me. It still does. I have a good friend who's facing prison time because he hit his wife. She had him backed into a corner hitting him! She is a tough woman. I'm positive it hurt. Rules around here are if you hit a man three times, you get what's coming to you. You dont get to call the law after hitting someone repeatedly, or running them over, pooping in their bed, etc. (Actually know a girl who pooped and wiped it ALL OVER my best friends apartment.) It should be a crime to call the police and have the person put in jail when they either snap or decide that they are getting out of that corner they were pushed into. It scares me that she will become the poster woman for BPD and so many of us find her actions deplorable. We are not like her, and she should not be able to use BPD as an excuse for her behavior. She shows more narccistic tendencies imo, but I am not a professional. I believe she's well studied at phycology and trying to use a mask of a mental illness where they may not have memory of their actions. However I don't think she has BPD I think she is masking malignant narcissism under BPD.
I wouldn't attempt to diagnose her personally. I do think that she has a lot of problems, the ability for extreme rage, and violence. if she has a personality disorder, I leave that to the experts, but I will say she is one toxic individual.
That must be quite annoying / challenging from your viewpoint so thanks for the insight. You mentioned that some relationships take longer to end than others, am I reading this right? Is this to smooth over the termination for the benefit of the NT? Would this prevent too much unwelcome drama, or possible stalking from an unhinged NT?
If you could direct me to the passage that gave you that impression I can certainly clarify.
Having a relationship continue until that other person opts to walk away does tend to remove the hanger ons that don't like the notion that it's over. So that can be a useful tactic if I suspect that is the direction it will go.
Then again, it tends to go that way anyway, which is quite vexing.
It can get complicated because of the emotional baggage they are carrying. The worst case is a person who is prone to obsessing over people. They can switch to being stalkers.
A relationship with someone whose most fervent desire is to be ignored. 😃
What would make you even want a major commitment (I got the impression somewhere that you were in one)? Without the feelings I imagine everything would get boring real fast.
Yes, I have been for over twenty years. He suits me perfectly, physically and mentally. He is an excellent match for me, and I for him. So long as this continues to be the case, we see no reason for the relationship to change.
I was wondering, is is a case of "out of sight, out of mind" in your relationship with those you consider friends? What would trigger you to make contact with them, or would you not initiate contact? (I understand that your friends are those whose company you enjoy".)
I pretty much never initiate contact with people. If people want or need something from me, they know where to find me. This can be very difficult for people that have emotional wiring, but no amount of concentrated effort on my part has made any real change in this category.
I always enjoy what you say. Ive been following you on quora too. (I was the one trying to figure out your sign!) I STILL SAY CAPRICORN btw! I think people get npd and psyvopathy mixed up. Or they combine the two. Would a psycopath hoover? Would you go thru the trouble of playing the head games that narscissist do? From what im learning is psycopaths tend to put way less thought into other people. Or their reactions. Am I close at all?
This is very interesting. I have a question if you don't mind, Athena, do you ever want to snuggle? Or like, want a hug after a bad day? Just curious about the oxytocin thing. I do wonder if phycopaths feel some type of it, just maybe in a different way. I have trouble with the concept of not feeling love in some type of way. I think that's because BPD feels very deeply. Oceans and deserts of feelings would be the tip of the iceberg for me. However, relationships are Exhausting! Romantically, not so much other types. I used to be very clingy, writing poems and such, the Victorian era love story type. That's changed quite a bit over time. Now I mostly want to be left alone. I have a lot to do in my daily life and I dont have the time to put into what most people want or would call a relationship. I dont have time for small talk. I don't need my ego stroked. 2 times a day of talking to you is more than enough. 20 texts take up too much time. I want to scream, "if you would leave me alone long enough to get my to-do list done, I might have some time for you!" Oh yea, dont forget to compliment them and say "Ily, imy, wyd?" Ugh.... Sigh.....
The only people who interest me are people who have lives of their own. You need help, give me a call. I'm leaving when the work is done. If i need help, I expect the same, only I'll feed you before you leave if you help me. Bonus points if you feed me. Check on each other every few days, "You alive?" "Yea, cool, me too thank God."
I do like to cuddle up every once in a while tho. I like snuggles from time to time. Only under certain conditions, it can quickly feel smothering, like I'm trapped, or trigger some old trauma, (thats actually meant to clear that old trauma and release it if your in a safe space, btw. Sitting thru that panic can be healing af in safe arms). Very good and explanatory article. Also, I don't understand why it is a problem to say someone is attractive while in a relationship. We are both thinking that girl is beautiful, why cant we say it? Doesnt mean I'm going to get their number. I can if you aggravate me about it. I'm also a good wingman lol
I don't like it, I don't hate it. It just is. It doesn't inspire bonding of any kind obviously, and I tend to be thinking about what I would rather do than that while it's going on.
Touch I think is one of my love languages. I paid attention to how much I touched people, how much they touched me, and how it felt yesterday. Casual touch (not sexual) is woven throughout our day. Hand holding, pats on the shoulder, or sitting watching YouTube with feet touching are common. Hugs are common too. I most definitely like them. When someone's touching me in a sexual manner I tend to reject that, but casual touch with my friends and family are common and enjoyable. I wondered if you felt comfort from a hug? Not love but if your upset, does it soothe you? Or make no difference?
And tactile sensation in general? Touch of fabric, touch of wind and water, warmth of tea in a mug, finger trailing over skin, teeth sinking into skin, massage... Is there a difference between feeling texture-temperature-movement of an object and feeling a human touch you? Is there any difference between when another person touches you and you touch yourself? Can there be something like your body being in a state when it welcomes certain tactile sensation and then being in a state where the same sensation is not welcome? Is your annoyence with cuddling only due to it keeping you from focusing on other thing, but should it be something like being pressed to your SO while you are reading a book, it would be ok? Or is the very physial closeness distracting and thus unwelcome?
So it might be pleasant similarly to how silk scarf is pleasant to touch, it's just that there are also those expectations. Or it is just in the realm of neutrality.
Because here I am wondering... It is not only oxytocin processing that makes touch enjoyable, is it? That is one kind of joy that just doesn't register with you. But then there are senses and people like you tend to have higher treshold of physical pain, but it doesn't make all other touch just bland, does it? Are there differences in how you and NTs around you perceive such sensations?
Like maybe it is dumb question, but I am no longer sure about what can be taken for granted and certain and since people on autism spectrum can have various hyper and hypo sensitivities, why not other neurodivergent groups.
It would be so cool to not get upset instead of having to do constant self regulation because your emotions are a roller coaster throughout each day. If I don't want to be overwhelmed by them, I have to sit with them. I can push them down or turn them off, but only for so long. Then it's like having to deal with national park sized emotions. Exhausting. One reason why time alone is highly recommended for me. Obviously, I cant be that up and down in front of everyone. The day is spent taking care of needs and responsibilities. No time for emotions of my own when working or dealing with others who need me to be a worker, comedian, cheerleader, etc
That's quite interesting. Your experience is almost the opposite of mine. I spend my time around people creating emotions that I don't feel to appear normal, and when I get to be alone I get to be myself and not have to put on the show.
Again, a very interesting post. Reading these make me aware of certain traits both my wife and I share. We’re both extremely independent and neither of us will tolerate being controlled by the other person. I think that was probably why marriage was ultimately something I accepted, because neither of us were interested in marriage for the sake of a ceremony; but it was a practical consideration so we could have the option to choose which country we lived in. Otherwise, we would have just continued to live together unmarried.
We also trust each other totally. If I’m meeting friends, even if they are female friends, my wife would never think there was anything untoward going on. Her main concern would be that I would spend too much money on cocaine, but as she enjoys taking it herself - it would be a roll of the eyes from her and then promptly forgotten about.
Being Thai, she lives in the moment. Plans happen as we go along. Everything is spontaneous. In the UK it’s harder to live like that as we are confined by certain rules eg getting fined if our son misses school. In Thailand I’d say, “shall we go and stay up in the mountain resort in Pai tomorrow?” and she’d either agree (usually) or disagree. Then we’d ask our son, “Do you want to go on holiday tomorrow, to the resort with the wooden elephants that spray water from their trunks into the swimming pool?”
Of course he wanted to go! 😅
It sounds like you have a good thing going for you.
Thank you for another very interesting post. I'm going to relate bits of this to my experience as one autistic female, like I've done before.
Some of the similarities and differences between my experience and what I understand you to be saying, Athena, make me think that I do have functioning oxytocin receptors. However either they function differently than NT ones, or my brain and sensory setup causes them to be activated by different experiences than most NTs.
The "head over heels in love" thing... omg, I think I had two "crushes" in my life, ever, that seemed chemical. I have found various people "hot", but that's a different thing I think, not sure what receptors are involved in that. A.J. as Lara Croft, yep!!! :-)
Rather than the list of "call, text, ..." that does seem to be critical for many NTs, I feel most connected to people when working toward a common, valued, goal -- alongside them. Snippets of interaction! Not having to have deep soulful eye contact, which I think took me decades to *not* have my brain interpret as a tiger staring at me while about to rip my throat out. Only kidding a little. There is a lot more to that, being watched was actually dangerous many times when I was a kid, so it's hard to separate neurotype from childhood experience. Too long a story!
But most autistics don't have the same positive from eye contact that NTs have, as I understand it.
I felt the most "at home" in a cooperative household for many years, with people I valued. Perhaps others were not NTs, I'm pretty sure of that actually. But I value certain kinds of low-key community greatly; is it oxytocin? I have no idea...
The one thing that I do have for sure... a love of snuggling. But not just any touch, it can be way too much.
If you love snuggling you have oxytocin doing something in your brain and body. I wonder if there are multiple versions of these receptors. How many people in the world could they have possibly studied to come up with the notion of "normal" when it comes to oxytocin and how it binds, doesn't bind, reacts, doesn't react? I am guessing that there is a great deal that is assumed to be "settled science" that is really just the tip of the iceberg.
Uh oh, I just did a Google Scholar search on "oxytocin and autism" and feel nauseated now... turns out that some researchers are dosing autistic kids up with oxytocin to try to get them to act more "normal". Maybe the kids will be proper drug-using partygoers now instead of mathematicians.
Well that's horrifying. Just accept that they're different. They're normal for them. Good lord this need to make everyone be the same is ugly.
It's tricky, there is the pressure from outside like that, which is easier for me to disagree with. But then, some autistic people actually want to be non-autistic, like whatever they think "normal" is, esp. when young or if their differences have gotten in the way of things they wanted to do or be. Many of those don't seem to have considered that society could be structured differently, some NTs could be more tolerant, all sorts of things could be different that would enable those options for them. But many are in environments in which considering that would be, at the least, very difficult for some neurotypes. Maybe not for some psychopaths?
An example of that... many nonspeaking autistics aren't even taught to type as kids by their families, which seems like such a really basic thing... the focus is on getting them to "act normal" I guess, and type-to-speech isn't "normal".
This video has a little of the feel-good "inspiration porn" stuff going on, imo... but still, she mentions that issue plus others, and I am glad that the story got a bit of coverage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cd5ojVAdDo
Lovely. Limit a child's development because it makes the parents uncomfortable. Seems reasonable...
I will check out the video, thank you
Very interesting read. What I have never understood with people and relationships (although I consider myself NT, I don't know for sure I'm under 25 and never been tested for anything) is people's inability to deal with rejection. The anger, the disbelief, usually aggression and hurling insults - that's some of the reactions I dealt with. I'm speaking from a perspective of a straight woman, so I don't know how other women react to rejection. However, I usually shrug it off and move on very quickly - I have been rejected twice, and although it was disappointing it was not a big deal. I never understood why men who have been rejected act this way. How is being aggressive and rude going to help you? Not to mention some men approach women in the dumbest way possible, sometimes even demanding their phone number or attention. Men (but also women who have a hard time dealing with rejection) who are reading this: no one owes you attention, their time or attraction. Bear it in mind.
Indeed, I agree
Hi Abigail, I used to deal with rejection very poorly, and I can attempt to share the structure of it.
Simplistically, it’s a two-part function - one is the loss of whatever benefits emotional or otherwise that you’re receiving from, or imagine to receive from a potential partner, and the second part is taking the rejection personally, meaning that you feel that their assessment of you is both negative and valid.
Further, as a male I have experienced one-itis quite a bit, and so preposterously overvalue and idealize the female of my interest.
Eventually I sort it out that we don’t actually perceive the person of interest directly, but only through our own preconceived lenses and vice versa, they are not rejecting you per se, they’re rejecting a model of what they perceive to be you in thier own minds.
I do still experience the feeling of envy or yearning,(I’m still working on that) but the ego hit has diminished considerably.
That's an interesting perspective. Thanks and glad you have worked on your response to rejection. I believe it's normal to feel disappointed and angry (although I have not experienced that cause I am quite unemotional) but what I have never understood, is when people would hurl insults and get unreasonably aggressive at the person who rejected them. And I mean just rejected them, calmly explained they are not interested not laughed at them and mocked them. I don't understand these sort of reactions because I was raised by my parents that only idiots and children have a tantrum when they do not get what they want. I was raised to feel ashamed when I overreact to something and jump to insults and unreasonable anger. From my experience, that's not how a lot of individuals have been raised, however. The once I had the "pleasure" to deal with believed that they were right to get aggressive, have a tantrum and insult me - and then not an ounce of shame or reflect on their behaviour. To me, this is unimaginable. It's how I was raised and perhaps that I am generally a reflective person and always try to see both sides. That's why it shocks me when people do not do that, especially when they acted like unreasonable, entitled brats - and I am talking about people in their twenties and thirties, who you'd expect to be a bit more mature.
Regarding “hurl insults and get unreasonably aggressive at the person who rejected them”
I don’t do that or feel the impulse to do so, but I can imagine the hypothetical structures under it.
Rejection is taken as an affront to self worth, as an insult.
This prompts a feeling of low worth
This works it way thru the ego and persona
The reaction is an emotional counter attack - an immature emotional tactic to put the target on their level - you hurt my ego so I’ll hurt yours
Many people, men especially, erroneously believe that their value as a person is directly connected to their ability to attract women, to be a stud, to be able to pull chicks.
Consider the common insults: has a little d**k, can’t even get laid etc.
Once a guy frees himself from this preposterous standard, he is no longer affected by the ego slight.
Note that some women pull the same stunt, for example I’ve friend zoned a few women that were attracted to me, but the feeling wasn’t mutual, so they resorted to insults like “you think you’re hotter than me? Your gay! Etc.
"I could write a great deal about the emotional interactions and the pitfalls that they can become, but really this is long enough and it would triple it."
Yes, and we would read it with interest, triple away!
I don't think LIAR is applicable to neurotypicals saying they want honesty. There are a few factors here. One is the wanting a perfect world thing, with flattery being the truth, which is unrealistic of course, so ditch that. Another is HOPING that the content of the honesty will be something you can deal with, which, who knows, may be unrealistic. Then there's GENUINELY believing you can totally cope, but coming in for a shock, which was not necessarily unrealistic of you. The first may be a form of 'lying to yourself' but the latter two are just the result of conflicting needs within oneself and the unpredictability of what other people will come out with and how it will affect us.
I find that so strange to me. The notion of honesty being rooted in how they feel about that honesty is literally not honesty.
It's not really different from any other type of situation where someone overestimated what they could handle, even situations where there is no interpersonal aspect. They want X experience, think it through, make an assessment, try it, and sometimes find that it was more than they bargained for. Over time, knowing what one wants will be refined. Meanwhile, it would not be accurate to call someone a 'liar' because they genuinely thought they wanted, say, a challenging adventure/15 minutes of fame/a sexual experiment/any other thing people sometimes get wrong.
Fair enough
You have been observing people closely. Willingness to become a mirror for the other person is often a requirement for NT relationships. I don’t make a very good mirror, I’ve learned. A high independence partnership is probably all I can handle sustainably.
I totally understand that
The desire for an independent partner is of course totally legitimate, but as a sideline, when I was younger, that sort of declaration was a bit of a red flag, code for' immature person who didn't want to put much into a relationship and wanted licence to be an arse'. With an extra dimension of manipulative flattery in that the prospective partner might try to cast themselves as just that strong independent person even when they weren't up to the job, or shouldn't have had to deal with crap. It's a bit of a pitfall!
Coming from my perspective as someone that really does not want a high dependence relationship, it is because I really do not want one. However, I have learned over time that neurotypicals that say this tend to not be telling the truth. They are often the most dependent.
Yes, there are lots of good reasons not to want one. I haven't noticed people who say so being themselves dependant though, more trying to put a fashionable spin on telling partners not to expect much!
Those who turn out to actuallu be dependant themselves, well I guess it was wishful thinking and fake-it-till-you-make-it. It's scary for neurotypicals to feel vulnerable in a relationship, so on reflection maybe it's not surprising if they optimistically declare they are one way and then find they are the opposite.
Yes, I agree. It is a most annoying habit
I can't think of it as an annoying habit since it is such a part of neurotypical experience and part of our culture of people pep talking themselves through fears and uncertainties and being told to be confident and that they can do anything etc. Your psychopath's default confidence may mean you underestimate how much some neurotypicals' headspace and daily time is given over to encouraging self talk, it can be almost constant at times, of necessity. And like so many things, there is an upside and downside. Sometimes assumed confidence can be effective and lead in time to greater natural confidence and you do eventually 'make it'. Sometimes it fails utterly and people will collapse on a mountain, cause havoc for colleagues in a job they optimistically blagged their way into, piss off partners, and generally be a liability and a nuisance. But the alternative is hesitation and ongoing fearfullness and limited lives. So I can see no way around this. We only learn our abilities and limits with time and experience.
Your comment about dependant people stating one thing and turning out the other didn't initially ring true for me because I personally didn't do that with relationships. But looking back I did the same thing in so many areas of life, and found that will and determination did not match ability, and the results weren't pretty. So yeah, I then thought hey, those people are probably just doing this much wider thing in their love life as well.
A lot of the things you post sound disingenuous when said by neurotypicals, for similar reasons
I think your interpretation of my comment is interesting, but as someone who is asexual, aromantic, and autistic, I don't believe your projection applies.
Edit: I understand I am capable of "arsehole-ism" as much as the next human. However, more importantly, I've recognized that I don't possess the 'mirroring' neurology necessary for NT-partnered relationships and am self-aware enough to also realize I don't possess the mental energy required to mask that mirroring behavior long-term. Ergo, as a rule, I don't start things I can't maintain.
This is very interesting from a pw borderline pd. I am considered a "secondary psychopath"...the super reactive kind and I can only fall in love with psychopaths. Other personality types are unattractive to me. I really don't like attentive or clinging behavior, and I seem to have all of the traits of a typical psychopath, but I produce tons of oxytocin during sex and it's the oxytocin that ruins my relationships. So I really appreciate you sharing your insight with us. You are keeping me from causing anymore broken hearts, and preventing me from having mine broken again either. Thank you.
I am glad that you are able to use what I write
That’s one dramatic image.
Right? I thought I would utilize it as it seems to be how people tend to depict relationships with psychopaths. It reminded me of the Love Fraud type stories.
Actually, that pretty much sums up how it feels for any partner’s dispassionate break up , or cheating scenario for NTs - at least before we’ve got some miles under our belt. Not much to envy, is there?
“I was in a relationship with a narcissistic sociopathic psychopath.”
Johnny Depp has said similar about his now ex wife Amber Heard I believe. While I think there is genuine room for doubt that label is 100% accurate I think it’s possible he could be at least somewhat right on the narcissistic side of things.
Not sure if you’re at all familiar with the current court trial going on with them? Appreciate you aren’t into celebrity gossip but occurred to me that because you sometimes write about narcissism/NPD you might have taken some interest.
I have caught different videos reporting on it. I do know that she was diagnosed with HPD and BPD. I was just asked over on Quora what made her turn into a psychopath... so that's super fun, pardon me while I try to remove my face from the desk. What I can say about her is that she is a very toxic person. If she gets help, then perhaps she can have a good and fulfilling life. If not, at least people will now at least know what they are getting into.
Oh no (on the quora part)! Yeah…that’s definitely my impression too (on the toxic person front). I listened to a video recording the other day and the way that she can be heard laughing and taunting strongly reminds me of a drunk person who has turned very nasty under alcohol influence!!
Definitely hope for the sake of the kid she’s adopted/who lives with her she soon gets some kind of wake up call on needing help. Agreeing it’s a good thing that at least more people are now aware that she’s toxic.
I think the kid was born through a segregate. That was mentioned in one of the reports that I saw about it. If she hasn't addressed he mental health issues, she will bring a great deal of harm to that child.
You know, I've been very curious about your take on the whole Amber Heard/Johnny Depp thing. I'm having way more fun than I would have thought, watching Rekieta Law, Emily D Baker, etc, comment on it. (I'm now imagining a 'Psychopaths react to trials' type uTube channel. Shame that your time is and interests are probably already full up!)
The body language analysts reacting to AH are also fun, although I was disappointed to notice recently that the one I like most (Behavior Panel) did a video on a psychopath who killed her children, in which the panel quoted Robert Hare. Like, a LOT. Granted, she was actually in prison so they had at least a little justification in citing him, but still. Bit of a turn off.
I know the YouTube channel you are referring to. I thought they were interesting at first glance but then did an entire episode about how Elizabeth Holmes was a psychopath and also somehow mentally and emotionally unstable... it was so poorly considered that it makes me wonder what happened to the teaching of critical thinking.
Yeah, that is a shame. I can't quite decide whether to write them off completely (thereby learning from the Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect) or just kind of try to sift through what they say and pick out the useful bits. In theory, option 2, but in practice probably option 1 since there's so many other interesting things competing for my attention!
(Neebs Gaming is currently winning the attention sweepstakes. The Subnautica supercut is freakin' hilarious, for anyone who's enough of a video game nerd to enjoy streams elevated to the level of art.)
I know what you mean about interesting things vying for attention.
I run a site in support for Johnny Depp on Quora. I have been following this since it started. He may have some narc tendencies. We all do to some degree. It bothered me as a domestic violence victim when I learned about how many women hit men. I was sitting in the shelter with people who's lives had been ruined by dv, but there were some that were using the system and laughing about it. And some women who were bragging about it. This infuriated me. It still does. I have a good friend who's facing prison time because he hit his wife. She had him backed into a corner hitting him! She is a tough woman. I'm positive it hurt. Rules around here are if you hit a man three times, you get what's coming to you. You dont get to call the law after hitting someone repeatedly, or running them over, pooping in their bed, etc. (Actually know a girl who pooped and wiped it ALL OVER my best friends apartment.) It should be a crime to call the police and have the person put in jail when they either snap or decide that they are getting out of that corner they were pushed into. It scares me that she will become the poster woman for BPD and so many of us find her actions deplorable. We are not like her, and she should not be able to use BPD as an excuse for her behavior. She shows more narccistic tendencies imo, but I am not a professional. I believe she's well studied at phycology and trying to use a mask of a mental illness where they may not have memory of their actions. However I don't think she has BPD I think she is masking malignant narcissism under BPD.
I wouldn't attempt to diagnose her personally. I do think that she has a lot of problems, the ability for extreme rage, and violence. if she has a personality disorder, I leave that to the experts, but I will say she is one toxic individual.
That must be quite annoying / challenging from your viewpoint so thanks for the insight. You mentioned that some relationships take longer to end than others, am I reading this right? Is this to smooth over the termination for the benefit of the NT? Would this prevent too much unwelcome drama, or possible stalking from an unhinged NT?
If you could direct me to the passage that gave you that impression I can certainly clarify.
Having a relationship continue until that other person opts to walk away does tend to remove the hanger ons that don't like the notion that it's over. So that can be a useful tactic if I suspect that is the direction it will go.
Then again, it tends to go that way anyway, which is quite vexing.
Please ignore my comment on relationships taking longer to end... I misread your article.
All right
I thought the same at first! Mainly because the guy I was seeing would tell me that its alot easier meeting people than it is getting them to leave!
It can get complicated because of the emotional baggage they are carrying. The worst case is a person who is prone to obsessing over people. They can switch to being stalkers.
Oh yes, I know exactly what you mean
Thanks.
A relationship with someone whose most fervent desire is to be ignored. 😃
What would make you even want a major commitment (I got the impression somewhere that you were in one)? Without the feelings I imagine everything would get boring real fast.
Yes, I have been for over twenty years. He suits me perfectly, physically and mentally. He is an excellent match for me, and I for him. So long as this continues to be the case, we see no reason for the relationship to change.
That's awesome.
Fair enough.
I was wondering, is is a case of "out of sight, out of mind" in your relationship with those you consider friends? What would trigger you to make contact with them, or would you not initiate contact? (I understand that your friends are those whose company you enjoy".)
I pretty much never initiate contact with people. If people want or need something from me, they know where to find me. This can be very difficult for people that have emotional wiring, but no amount of concentrated effort on my part has made any real change in this category.
1). Not even your family?
2). What if you know they’re going through a hard time and would like you to initiate?
3). If you don’t initiate with your family,
does it cause strained relations with them?
4). If your SO went AWOL for days /weeks;
would you not reach out even then?
For instance they could be in trouble.
So what does a typical break up look like?
That will be coming up
;)
Im so glad your doing this! It helps educate the reality of it all. No sugar coating. Just real life experiences! Im excited to learn more!thank you!
Thank you for reading, Tina
I always enjoy what you say. Ive been following you on quora too. (I was the one trying to figure out your sign!) I STILL SAY CAPRICORN btw! I think people get npd and psyvopathy mixed up. Or they combine the two. Would a psycopath hoover? Would you go thru the trouble of playing the head games that narscissist do? From what im learning is psycopaths tend to put way less thought into other people. Or their reactions. Am I close at all?
Those sorts of things just cause unnecessary drama. There wouldn't be an appeal for a psychopath.
This is very interesting. I have a question if you don't mind, Athena, do you ever want to snuggle? Or like, want a hug after a bad day? Just curious about the oxytocin thing. I do wonder if phycopaths feel some type of it, just maybe in a different way. I have trouble with the concept of not feeling love in some type of way. I think that's because BPD feels very deeply. Oceans and deserts of feelings would be the tip of the iceberg for me. However, relationships are Exhausting! Romantically, not so much other types. I used to be very clingy, writing poems and such, the Victorian era love story type. That's changed quite a bit over time. Now I mostly want to be left alone. I have a lot to do in my daily life and I dont have the time to put into what most people want or would call a relationship. I dont have time for small talk. I don't need my ego stroked. 2 times a day of talking to you is more than enough. 20 texts take up too much time. I want to scream, "if you would leave me alone long enough to get my to-do list done, I might have some time for you!" Oh yea, dont forget to compliment them and say "Ily, imy, wyd?" Ugh.... Sigh.....
The only people who interest me are people who have lives of their own. You need help, give me a call. I'm leaving when the work is done. If i need help, I expect the same, only I'll feed you before you leave if you help me. Bonus points if you feed me. Check on each other every few days, "You alive?" "Yea, cool, me too thank God."
I do like to cuddle up every once in a while tho. I like snuggles from time to time. Only under certain conditions, it can quickly feel smothering, like I'm trapped, or trigger some old trauma, (thats actually meant to clear that old trauma and release it if your in a safe space, btw. Sitting thru that panic can be healing af in safe arms). Very good and explanatory article. Also, I don't understand why it is a problem to say someone is attractive while in a relationship. We are both thinking that girl is beautiful, why cant we say it? Doesnt mean I'm going to get their number. I can if you aggravate me about it. I'm also a good wingman lol
I don't like it, I don't hate it. It just is. It doesn't inspire bonding of any kind obviously, and I tend to be thinking about what I would rather do than that while it's going on.
Do you just do it for your partners, and were they to not need it you wouldn't ever bother?
I wouldn't even think about it unless I am intentionally placing it on my to do list.
Touch I think is one of my love languages. I paid attention to how much I touched people, how much they touched me, and how it felt yesterday. Casual touch (not sexual) is woven throughout our day. Hand holding, pats on the shoulder, or sitting watching YouTube with feet touching are common. Hugs are common too. I most definitely like them. When someone's touching me in a sexual manner I tend to reject that, but casual touch with my friends and family are common and enjoyable. I wondered if you felt comfort from a hug? Not love but if your upset, does it soothe you? Or make no difference?
I don't get upset in the first place, so no, it wouldn't do anything for me.
And tactile sensation in general? Touch of fabric, touch of wind and water, warmth of tea in a mug, finger trailing over skin, teeth sinking into skin, massage... Is there a difference between feeling texture-temperature-movement of an object and feeling a human touch you? Is there any difference between when another person touches you and you touch yourself? Can there be something like your body being in a state when it welcomes certain tactile sensation and then being in a state where the same sensation is not welcome? Is your annoyence with cuddling only due to it keeping you from focusing on other thing, but should it be something like being pressed to your SO while you are reading a book, it would be ok? Or is the very physial closeness distracting and thus unwelcome?
Nope, no difference other than considering what might be expected of me in response.
So it might be pleasant similarly to how silk scarf is pleasant to touch, it's just that there are also those expectations. Or it is just in the realm of neutrality.
Because here I am wondering... It is not only oxytocin processing that makes touch enjoyable, is it? That is one kind of joy that just doesn't register with you. But then there are senses and people like you tend to have higher treshold of physical pain, but it doesn't make all other touch just bland, does it? Are there differences in how you and NTs around you perceive such sensations?
Like maybe it is dumb question, but I am no longer sure about what can be taken for granted and certain and since people on autism spectrum can have various hyper and hypo sensitivities, why not other neurodivergent groups.
It would be so cool to not get upset instead of having to do constant self regulation because your emotions are a roller coaster throughout each day. If I don't want to be overwhelmed by them, I have to sit with them. I can push them down or turn them off, but only for so long. Then it's like having to deal with national park sized emotions. Exhausting. One reason why time alone is highly recommended for me. Obviously, I cant be that up and down in front of everyone. The day is spent taking care of needs and responsibilities. No time for emotions of my own when working or dealing with others who need me to be a worker, comedian, cheerleader, etc
That's quite interesting. Your experience is almost the opposite of mine. I spend my time around people creating emotions that I don't feel to appear normal, and when I get to be alone I get to be myself and not have to put on the show.
That's actually very cool!!
What does this mean, as an NT, that this relationship scenario sounds perfect, to me?
Perhaps this is why I prefer Cats over Dogs
Except the continuous 2:00 am sleep stealing antics, of course
Is there a dating site for Psychopaths?
That would be a no, but if there were one I would bet that it would be filled with the edgelords
I’m imagining it, psychopath dating site, as a premise for a sitcom
That could be amusing