83 Comments

Again, a very interesting post. Reading these make me aware of certain traits both my wife and I share. We’re both extremely independent and neither of us will tolerate being controlled by the other person. I think that was probably why marriage was ultimately something I accepted, because neither of us were interested in marriage for the sake of a ceremony; but it was a practical consideration so we could have the option to choose which country we lived in. Otherwise, we would have just continued to live together unmarried.

We also trust each other totally. If I’m meeting friends, even if they are female friends, my wife would never think there was anything untoward going on. Her main concern would be that I would spend too much money on cocaine, but as she enjoys taking it herself - it would be a roll of the eyes from her and then promptly forgotten about.

Being Thai, she lives in the moment. Plans happen as we go along. Everything is spontaneous. In the UK it’s harder to live like that as we are confined by certain rules eg getting fined if our son misses school. In Thailand I’d say, “shall we go and stay up in the mountain resort in Pai tomorrow?” and she’d either agree (usually) or disagree. Then we’d ask our son, “Do you want to go on holiday tomorrow, to the resort with the wooden elephants that spray water from their trunks into the swimming pool?”

Of course he wanted to go! 😅

Expand full comment
May 17, 2022Liked by Athena Walker

Thank you for another very interesting post. I'm going to relate bits of this to my experience as one autistic female, like I've done before.

Some of the similarities and differences between my experience and what I understand you to be saying, Athena, make me think that I do have functioning oxytocin receptors. However either they function differently than NT ones, or my brain and sensory setup causes them to be activated by different experiences than most NTs.

The "head over heels in love" thing... omg, I think I had two "crushes" in my life, ever, that seemed chemical. I have found various people "hot", but that's a different thing I think, not sure what receptors are involved in that. A.J. as Lara Croft, yep!!! :-)

Rather than the list of "call, text, ..." that does seem to be critical for many NTs, I feel most connected to people when working toward a common, valued, goal -- alongside them. Snippets of interaction! Not having to have deep soulful eye contact, which I think took me decades to *not* have my brain interpret as a tiger staring at me while about to rip my throat out. Only kidding a little. There is a lot more to that, being watched was actually dangerous many times when I was a kid, so it's hard to separate neurotype from childhood experience. Too long a story!

But most autistics don't have the same positive from eye contact that NTs have, as I understand it.

I felt the most "at home" in a cooperative household for many years, with people I valued. Perhaps others were not NTs, I'm pretty sure of that actually. But I value certain kinds of low-key community greatly; is it oxytocin? I have no idea...

The one thing that I do have for sure... a love of snuggling. But not just any touch, it can be way too much.

Expand full comment
May 18, 2022Liked by Athena Walker

Very interesting read. What I have never understood with people and relationships (although I consider myself NT, I don't know for sure I'm under 25 and never been tested for anything) is people's inability to deal with rejection. The anger, the disbelief, usually aggression and hurling insults - that's some of the reactions I dealt with. I'm speaking from a perspective of a straight woman, so I don't know how other women react to rejection. However, I usually shrug it off and move on very quickly - I have been rejected twice, and although it was disappointing it was not a big deal. I never understood why men who have been rejected act this way. How is being aggressive and rude going to help you? Not to mention some men approach women in the dumbest way possible, sometimes even demanding their phone number or attention. Men (but also women who have a hard time dealing with rejection) who are reading this: no one owes you attention, their time or attraction. Bear it in mind.

Expand full comment
May 18, 2022Liked by Athena Walker

"I could write a great deal about the emotional interactions and the pitfalls that they can become, but really this is long enough and it would triple it."

Yes, and we would read it with interest, triple away!

I don't think LIAR is applicable to neurotypicals saying they want honesty. There are a few factors here. One is the wanting a perfect world thing, with flattery being the truth, which is unrealistic of course, so ditch that. Another is HOPING that the content of the honesty will be something you can deal with, which, who knows, may be unrealistic. Then there's GENUINELY believing you can totally cope, but coming in for a shock, which was not necessarily unrealistic of you. The first may be a form of 'lying to yourself' but the latter two are just the result of conflicting needs within oneself and the unpredictability of what other people will come out with and how it will affect us.

Expand full comment
May 17, 2022Liked by Athena Walker

You have been observing people closely. Willingness to become a mirror for the other person is often a requirement for NT relationships. I don’t make a very good mirror, I’ve learned. A high independence partnership is probably all I can handle sustainably.

Expand full comment
May 18, 2022Liked by Athena Walker

This is very interesting from a pw borderline pd. I am considered a "secondary psychopath"...the super reactive kind and I can only fall in love with psychopaths. Other personality types are unattractive to me. I really don't like attentive or clinging behavior, and I seem to have all of the traits of a typical psychopath, but I produce tons of oxytocin during sex and it's the oxytocin that ruins my relationships. So I really appreciate you sharing your insight with us. You are keeping me from causing anymore broken hearts, and preventing me from having mine broken again either. Thank you.

Expand full comment

That’s one dramatic image.

Expand full comment
May 18, 2022Liked by Athena Walker

“I was in a relationship with a narcissistic sociopathic psychopath.”

Johnny Depp has said similar about his now ex wife Amber Heard I believe. While I think there is genuine room for doubt that label is 100% accurate I think it’s possible he could be at least somewhat right on the narcissistic side of things.

Not sure if you’re at all familiar with the current court trial going on with them? Appreciate you aren’t into celebrity gossip but occurred to me that because you sometimes write about narcissism/NPD you might have taken some interest.

Expand full comment
May 17, 2022Liked by Athena Walker

That must be quite annoying / challenging from your viewpoint so thanks for the insight. You mentioned that some relationships take longer to end than others, am I reading this right? Is this to smooth over the termination for the benefit of the NT? Would this prevent too much unwelcome drama, or possible stalking from an unhinged NT?

Expand full comment

A relationship with someone whose most fervent desire is to be ignored. 😃

What would make you even want a major commitment (I got the impression somewhere that you were in one)? Without the feelings I imagine everything would get boring real fast.

Expand full comment
May 20, 2022Liked by Athena Walker

Fair enough.

Expand full comment
May 19, 2022Liked by Athena Walker

I was wondering, is is a case of "out of sight, out of mind" in your relationship with those you consider friends? What would trigger you to make contact with them, or would you not initiate contact? (I understand that your friends are those whose company you enjoy".)

Expand full comment
May 19, 2022Liked by Athena Walker

So what does a typical break up look like?

Expand full comment
May 18, 2022Liked by Athena Walker

Im so glad your doing this! It helps educate the reality of it all. No sugar coating. Just real life experiences! Im excited to learn more!thank you!

Expand full comment
May 18, 2022Liked by Athena Walker

This is very interesting. I have a question if you don't mind, Athena, do you ever want to snuggle? Or like, want a hug after a bad day? Just curious about the oxytocin thing. I do wonder if phycopaths feel some type of it, just maybe in a different way. I have trouble with the concept of not feeling love in some type of way. I think that's because BPD feels very deeply. Oceans and deserts of feelings would be the tip of the iceberg for me. However, relationships are Exhausting! Romantically, not so much other types. I used to be very clingy, writing poems and such, the Victorian era love story type. That's changed quite a bit over time. Now I mostly want to be left alone. I have a lot to do in my daily life and I dont have the time to put into what most people want or would call a relationship. I dont have time for small talk. I don't need my ego stroked. 2 times a day of talking to you is more than enough. 20 texts take up too much time. I want to scream, "if you would leave me alone long enough to get my to-do list done, I might have some time for you!" Oh yea, dont forget to compliment them and say "Ily, imy, wyd?" Ugh.... Sigh.....

The only people who interest me are people who have lives of their own. You need help, give me a call. I'm leaving when the work is done. If i need help, I expect the same, only I'll feed you before you leave if you help me. Bonus points if you feed me. Check on each other every few days, "You alive?" "Yea, cool, me too thank God."

I do like to cuddle up every once in a while tho. I like snuggles from time to time. Only under certain conditions, it can quickly feel smothering, like I'm trapped, or trigger some old trauma, (thats actually meant to clear that old trauma and release it if your in a safe space, btw. Sitting thru that panic can be healing af in safe arms). Very good and explanatory article. Also, I don't understand why it is a problem to say someone is attractive while in a relationship. We are both thinking that girl is beautiful, why cant we say it? Doesnt mean I'm going to get their number. I can if you aggravate me about it. I'm also a good wingman lol

Expand full comment

What does this mean, as an NT, that this relationship scenario sounds perfect, to me?

Perhaps this is why I prefer Cats over Dogs

Except the continuous 2:00 am sleep stealing antics, of course

Is there a dating site for Psychopaths?

Expand full comment