my grandmother was in palliative care for her dementia + congestive heart failure for quite some time at our home before dying this january. it was interesting to see how the different family members responded to her care. one aunt begged for a doctor to 'assist her in her passing' (and would pray nightly for Jesus to 'take her home'), one uncle (family creep) stole money from my parents because now she couldn't keep an eye on it, and one aunt would constantly send her into emotional fits. my parents and i took care of her full time for a year and a half until she died under our roof with the hospice nurse here.
we had a rocky past, so it was nice to get to know her better for the year she lived here, even if she repeated herself every five minutes - didn't bother me a bit. i was glad for the time that i wouldn't have had if we listened to my aunt's suggestion.
I think ultimately I’m always going to advocate the right of an individual to choose their own end. Arguing from the side that enabling one thing could mean that a line is crossed and we suddenly decide to designate every disabled person as having lives not worth living doesn’t stack up for me. I do agree that there has to be very strict legislation in place to support euthanasia though.
This lady has clearly found purpose in her life. I’m happy to read that, but there are demonstrably plenty of terminally ill or disabled people who haven’t, or there wouldn’t be a debate.
The assumption is that palliative care is accessible to all and of high quality. Depends on the country you live in and whether you have private health care or not. Are you feeling lucky?
It also depends on how you balance protecting your own family versus having an extra few years of life. Are you willing to sign over every last penny to pay for medical expenses or could that money be used to support a son or daughter just starting out in life? Surely that should be my right to choose when the time comes?
Ableist, unconscious bias, sounds similar to me. How does someone else know how I view the value of my own life or my reasons for it? They don’t. I’m getting a bit weary of people telling me what I REALLY feel.
I do agree that an elderly or infirm person could theoretically be manipulated or encouraged by selfish family members to take the euthanasia option. This is a legitimate concern and there would need to be safeguards against this before I could fully endorse the euthanasia option being made legal here. There are very dysfunctional families out there.
I don’t fear death. I do fear being made to hang on when I don’t want to. I think the euthanasia debate hinges very much on how each person views quality of life. This lady might be right, my views on what constitutes my personal quality of life might change as I get older or if I get sick. They will still be my own views though. I’m not booking my date and time of death now. I’m asking to be allowed to book it later should I deem it necessary.
While reading Adrianna’s first comment, my hands went cold. That’s a good thing to occur, as it only happens when I’ve read something that’s shaken my mind so much, my body has to redirect energy to focus and ingest the information. I share her concerns, as a fellow “undesirable,” while I also share your concerns about personal autonomy. I don’t know the answer.
I feel like there are (at least) 2 different discussions/arguments here. One is The Right to Die, and the other is (forced) Euthanasia. For me, I absolutely think everyone who chooses to die should have access to compassionate end-of-life care from their physician. They should not have to hoard and hide opiates until they have enough to off themself. They should be provided with the necessary drugs and instructions. My mother was dying and probably had only days left. Her doctor gave her a prescription to get the job done. She went to sleep in bedroom on the first floor of the house and not in the bed she shared with my father for decades, so she could die and be carried out without unnecessary fuss. She chose to die on a Friday so, being Jewish, there would be an extra day to plan her burial since Jews must be buried the next day unless they die on the Sabbath. My father also took his own life when he was ready, but his story is very different. As you know, my father was a “famous” criminal because his case was the birth of Neurolaw in America. After he spent 14 years in prison, he was released and moved into an assisted living facility. He was 83, and not in great health. His arthritis was making it impossible for a single attendant to help him shower. They wanted to move him to the nursing home wing. He did not want to move or live in a nursing home, so he hoarded his opiates (the first time, someone on the staff stole his stash) and after I travelled from SF to NY to see him for the first time in 16 years, he downed the bottle of pills, my brother got a phone call from the ER a few hours later because someone checked on him while he was still alive and they got him to the ER. The doc there wanted to know whether to save him or not, given the circumstances. Had we not known this was what he wanted, we could have made the wrong decision. Btw, it’s hard to kill yourself with a bottle of pills. THAT is one of the reasons to want access to the right Rx for death. Even a veterinarian will tell you that you shouldn’t attempt to drug your old, dying dog to death because it often fails. It doesn’t have to be a guess with a dog, and it shouldn’t have to be a guess with a human. As far as the forced Euthanasia scenarios, those are not acceptable. It removes the choice which then becomes murder. I’m glad I live in California where my doctor can help me should I ever need to exercise my right to die.
I am bemused to see that I'm not the only person who pondered a dystopian regime recruiting psychopaths, sociopaths and other people with an empathy deficit to administer involuntary euthanasia.
Knowing what I know now of the abuses that empathy is put to it's not necessary as I am positive that "empaths" would be happy to "assist" in suicide
I read through the entirety of your conversation, and whereas, yes, the government pushing people towards suicide is deplorable and not that unexpected, giving individuals the right to die should still be a valid choice for that person to make. (It should also be done under the oath of a 3rd party psychologist to ensure the person isn't being coerced into it.)
As horrible as the notion is to consider, over population is an ever-increasing threat, and I don't see it getting under control anytime soon. This sort of culling that you spoke of is likely to become more prominent as resources begin to dwindle regardless of the right to die debate. Just as any sort of reform to prevent humans from eventually turning the planet into a desert wasteland will come far too late.
Forcing patients to live years of misery for the sake of the family's comfort is far more selfish than letting them decide to depart on their own terms. Many of the living relatives that are appointed to caring for these people once their mind is completely gone out of obligation is also rather selfish of society to push on a person(family) essentially forcing them take on the financial and personal responsibility to care for an invalid. Doing so is seen as 'the right thing to do,' but it is in fact just taking away their right to live their life for themselves too. (Or the invalid gets shoved in a nursing home where they are essentially forgotten and too often mistreated by nursing home staff that are too overworked/underpaid/undereducated to give proper care to people in the last stages of life.)
The story of the horse, one of violence? Or was it thinning the herd because they instinctually were aware the colt was doomed to die? Nature has always been cruel, and we as a part of nature do not circumvent these laws.
Mar 9, 2023·edited Mar 9, 2023Liked by Athena Walker
I agree that euthanasia shouldn't be allowed, for the very reasons Adriana McGee mentioned.
Instead, assisted suicide should be the golden standard; it would need to involve triple-blind psychological evaluations; and in the end, should the psychological evaluation process favor their appeal... the patient should be required to trigger the actual process of their own termination, while being offered to do so in as comfortable way as medically possible. I think this is already how it's playing out in Northern European countries that already have had carried out this discussion through.
Worthwhile to keep in mind that people who are adamant about suicide will easily find a way to get it done, so this would be one one hand about actually encouraging them not to do so recklessly - and in the other hand about allowing them to do so in a painless and effective way, IF they manage to *convince* the psych specialists evaluating them that it's for the best and that they're indeed acting on their own free will.
My reasoning: there is already such a thing as covert euthanasia, and it needn't involve legal procedures. Many instances of it are documented throughout history. It can involve foul play such as provoking "accidents" or hiring assassins, or it can involve only psychological torture that can very well make the victim clamor for death. If there were such a thing as process of assisted suicide that was developed from the ground up to address these possibilities... its psych evaluations could actually give the patient a fighting change against the latter possibility, which could indeed involve sending them to a hospice where they might be allowed to spend the remainder of their life in a dignified and non-abusive setting.
That's funny that you write this, I was just talking to someone the other day that If things go south for me I want to do the right to die thing. As you know I was shot several times in June, after a 12 hour surgery my anatomy is different now and I have some complications here and there. I still have bullet fragments in what's left of one of my vital organs that has to be checked every 6 months.
The recovery from the surgery was brutal AF and ALOT of suffering (3 months worth). As someone diagnosed with psychopathy everything's logic to me. My experience of suffering the way i did it would make sense that if I'm going to lose anything else and I'm going to die Inevitably anyways that there's no need to suffer till the end. Pain medication doesn't take away ALL the pain, I experienced hallucinations with what they gave me because it was so strong but I still felt pain.
It doesn't bother me at all to die, I been in the hospital a few time with near death experiences from my shenanigans,apparently im hard to kill. Unfortunately I am one of the ones who has an affinity for testing mediocrity, I never think about how dangerous some of the things I do are.
I been told several times I have a 50/50 chance to live and it never bothered me at all, I think to myself oh okay and well that's that.
My reason for choosing the right to die option is to bypass all the physical suffering and go straight to the inevitable lights out part. I have a abnormal high tolerance for pain but pain 24 hours a day for 3 months will make someone weary. Give me the lights out pill, goodnight and goodbye.
I've done some thinking about the right to die issue and I personally would like that right, however I believe that no matter where you live it will eventually come to pass that it will be abused.
Like the examples you listed of government control where people are being killed instead of treated. Perhaps at some point even healthcare insurance companies will be offering death instead of treatment too.
Because in the end it's all about the money, it's saves them money.
So that said, I believe she was right.
I haven't changed my mind about my right to choose, and maybe with the right laws in place we can slow down the killing of people who don't want to die, but humans are greedy by nature, tribal and often heartless, so I believe we're on that slippery slope already.
As far as population control as I read someone mentioned, there are far easier ways to do that, like China did. I see a future where both will happen. Sadly.
my grandmother was in palliative care for her dementia + congestive heart failure for quite some time at our home before dying this january. it was interesting to see how the different family members responded to her care. one aunt begged for a doctor to 'assist her in her passing' (and would pray nightly for Jesus to 'take her home'), one uncle (family creep) stole money from my parents because now she couldn't keep an eye on it, and one aunt would constantly send her into emotional fits. my parents and i took care of her full time for a year and a half until she died under our roof with the hospice nurse here.
we had a rocky past, so it was nice to get to know her better for the year she lived here, even if she repeated herself every five minutes - didn't bother me a bit. i was glad for the time that i wouldn't have had if we listened to my aunt's suggestion.
This is a tough argument. You’re right!
I think ultimately I’m always going to advocate the right of an individual to choose their own end. Arguing from the side that enabling one thing could mean that a line is crossed and we suddenly decide to designate every disabled person as having lives not worth living doesn’t stack up for me. I do agree that there has to be very strict legislation in place to support euthanasia though.
This lady has clearly found purpose in her life. I’m happy to read that, but there are demonstrably plenty of terminally ill or disabled people who haven’t, or there wouldn’t be a debate.
The assumption is that palliative care is accessible to all and of high quality. Depends on the country you live in and whether you have private health care or not. Are you feeling lucky?
It also depends on how you balance protecting your own family versus having an extra few years of life. Are you willing to sign over every last penny to pay for medical expenses or could that money be used to support a son or daughter just starting out in life? Surely that should be my right to choose when the time comes?
Ableist, unconscious bias, sounds similar to me. How does someone else know how I view the value of my own life or my reasons for it? They don’t. I’m getting a bit weary of people telling me what I REALLY feel.
I do agree that an elderly or infirm person could theoretically be manipulated or encouraged by selfish family members to take the euthanasia option. This is a legitimate concern and there would need to be safeguards against this before I could fully endorse the euthanasia option being made legal here. There are very dysfunctional families out there.
I don’t fear death. I do fear being made to hang on when I don’t want to. I think the euthanasia debate hinges very much on how each person views quality of life. This lady might be right, my views on what constitutes my personal quality of life might change as I get older or if I get sick. They will still be my own views though. I’m not booking my date and time of death now. I’m asking to be allowed to book it later should I deem it necessary.
While reading Adrianna’s first comment, my hands went cold. That’s a good thing to occur, as it only happens when I’ve read something that’s shaken my mind so much, my body has to redirect energy to focus and ingest the information. I share her concerns, as a fellow “undesirable,” while I also share your concerns about personal autonomy. I don’t know the answer.
I feel like there are (at least) 2 different discussions/arguments here. One is The Right to Die, and the other is (forced) Euthanasia. For me, I absolutely think everyone who chooses to die should have access to compassionate end-of-life care from their physician. They should not have to hoard and hide opiates until they have enough to off themself. They should be provided with the necessary drugs and instructions. My mother was dying and probably had only days left. Her doctor gave her a prescription to get the job done. She went to sleep in bedroom on the first floor of the house and not in the bed she shared with my father for decades, so she could die and be carried out without unnecessary fuss. She chose to die on a Friday so, being Jewish, there would be an extra day to plan her burial since Jews must be buried the next day unless they die on the Sabbath. My father also took his own life when he was ready, but his story is very different. As you know, my father was a “famous” criminal because his case was the birth of Neurolaw in America. After he spent 14 years in prison, he was released and moved into an assisted living facility. He was 83, and not in great health. His arthritis was making it impossible for a single attendant to help him shower. They wanted to move him to the nursing home wing. He did not want to move or live in a nursing home, so he hoarded his opiates (the first time, someone on the staff stole his stash) and after I travelled from SF to NY to see him for the first time in 16 years, he downed the bottle of pills, my brother got a phone call from the ER a few hours later because someone checked on him while he was still alive and they got him to the ER. The doc there wanted to know whether to save him or not, given the circumstances. Had we not known this was what he wanted, we could have made the wrong decision. Btw, it’s hard to kill yourself with a bottle of pills. THAT is one of the reasons to want access to the right Rx for death. Even a veterinarian will tell you that you shouldn’t attempt to drug your old, dying dog to death because it often fails. It doesn’t have to be a guess with a dog, and it shouldn’t have to be a guess with a human. As far as the forced Euthanasia scenarios, those are not acceptable. It removes the choice which then becomes murder. I’m glad I live in California where my doctor can help me should I ever need to exercise my right to die.
I am bemused to see that I'm not the only person who pondered a dystopian regime recruiting psychopaths, sociopaths and other people with an empathy deficit to administer involuntary euthanasia.
Knowing what I know now of the abuses that empathy is put to it's not necessary as I am positive that "empaths" would be happy to "assist" in suicide
I read through the entirety of your conversation, and whereas, yes, the government pushing people towards suicide is deplorable and not that unexpected, giving individuals the right to die should still be a valid choice for that person to make. (It should also be done under the oath of a 3rd party psychologist to ensure the person isn't being coerced into it.)
As horrible as the notion is to consider, over population is an ever-increasing threat, and I don't see it getting under control anytime soon. This sort of culling that you spoke of is likely to become more prominent as resources begin to dwindle regardless of the right to die debate. Just as any sort of reform to prevent humans from eventually turning the planet into a desert wasteland will come far too late.
Forcing patients to live years of misery for the sake of the family's comfort is far more selfish than letting them decide to depart on their own terms. Many of the living relatives that are appointed to caring for these people once their mind is completely gone out of obligation is also rather selfish of society to push on a person(family) essentially forcing them take on the financial and personal responsibility to care for an invalid. Doing so is seen as 'the right thing to do,' but it is in fact just taking away their right to live their life for themselves too. (Or the invalid gets shoved in a nursing home where they are essentially forgotten and too often mistreated by nursing home staff that are too overworked/underpaid/undereducated to give proper care to people in the last stages of life.)
The story of the horse, one of violence? Or was it thinning the herd because they instinctually were aware the colt was doomed to die? Nature has always been cruel, and we as a part of nature do not circumvent these laws.
I agree that euthanasia shouldn't be allowed, for the very reasons Adriana McGee mentioned.
Instead, assisted suicide should be the golden standard; it would need to involve triple-blind psychological evaluations; and in the end, should the psychological evaluation process favor their appeal... the patient should be required to trigger the actual process of their own termination, while being offered to do so in as comfortable way as medically possible. I think this is already how it's playing out in Northern European countries that already have had carried out this discussion through.
Worthwhile to keep in mind that people who are adamant about suicide will easily find a way to get it done, so this would be one one hand about actually encouraging them not to do so recklessly - and in the other hand about allowing them to do so in a painless and effective way, IF they manage to *convince* the psych specialists evaluating them that it's for the best and that they're indeed acting on their own free will.
My reasoning: there is already such a thing as covert euthanasia, and it needn't involve legal procedures. Many instances of it are documented throughout history. It can involve foul play such as provoking "accidents" or hiring assassins, or it can involve only psychological torture that can very well make the victim clamor for death. If there were such a thing as process of assisted suicide that was developed from the ground up to address these possibilities... its psych evaluations could actually give the patient a fighting change against the latter possibility, which could indeed involve sending them to a hospice where they might be allowed to spend the remainder of their life in a dignified and non-abusive setting.
Thank you for this. Genuinely changed my view.
I'm disabled also. She does not speak for all of us.
That's funny that you write this, I was just talking to someone the other day that If things go south for me I want to do the right to die thing. As you know I was shot several times in June, after a 12 hour surgery my anatomy is different now and I have some complications here and there. I still have bullet fragments in what's left of one of my vital organs that has to be checked every 6 months.
The recovery from the surgery was brutal AF and ALOT of suffering (3 months worth). As someone diagnosed with psychopathy everything's logic to me. My experience of suffering the way i did it would make sense that if I'm going to lose anything else and I'm going to die Inevitably anyways that there's no need to suffer till the end. Pain medication doesn't take away ALL the pain, I experienced hallucinations with what they gave me because it was so strong but I still felt pain.
It doesn't bother me at all to die, I been in the hospital a few time with near death experiences from my shenanigans,apparently im hard to kill. Unfortunately I am one of the ones who has an affinity for testing mediocrity, I never think about how dangerous some of the things I do are.
I been told several times I have a 50/50 chance to live and it never bothered me at all, I think to myself oh okay and well that's that.
My reason for choosing the right to die option is to bypass all the physical suffering and go straight to the inevitable lights out part. I have a abnormal high tolerance for pain but pain 24 hours a day for 3 months will make someone weary. Give me the lights out pill, goodnight and goodbye.
Do you have a link for the info. About that woman who was offered MAID instead of healthcare?
I've done some thinking about the right to die issue and I personally would like that right, however I believe that no matter where you live it will eventually come to pass that it will be abused.
Like the examples you listed of government control where people are being killed instead of treated. Perhaps at some point even healthcare insurance companies will be offering death instead of treatment too.
Because in the end it's all about the money, it's saves them money.
So that said, I believe she was right.
I haven't changed my mind about my right to choose, and maybe with the right laws in place we can slow down the killing of people who don't want to die, but humans are greedy by nature, tribal and often heartless, so I believe we're on that slippery slope already.
As far as population control as I read someone mentioned, there are far easier ways to do that, like China did. I see a future where both will happen. Sadly.