Nice read. As a sensitive soul, I'd like to add an additional piece of advice to the more sensitive souls out there who are still struggling with this issue:
If you can't bring yourself to say "No" because it feels rude, try saying "No, thankyou!" It's all about good manners. :-)
It does, since it conveys the impression that you're being both firm AND considerate of their feelings - and that softens the emotional blow of being turned down gives them less material to gripe against.
I remember once reading about a similar trick of trade from a seasoned diplomat on Quora.
Their reasoning was to never outright say "no" to requests in order to avoid raising antagonism, but rather phrase it as "I'd love to oblige, but I am absolutely unable to due to my wretched hierarchical supervisors."
This sort of attitude, albeit somewhat performative, reduces interpersonal friction and conveys the impression that "Oh, it's someone else who is opposing your wishes - while I'm fighting so hard to serve your best interests but they simply don't let me do what you want even though I'd love to".
Interesting, and something worth elaborating: how can we tell we are dealing with discerning individuals, and what difference does it make in terms of communication strategies.
I can try to describe that, but I tend to find that people have a very hard time seeing through the emotional aspects to what I am seeing. Often when I point out that someone is disingenuous, or is sympathy mining I am told that I am being cruel, and making assumptions.
Fast forward several months, and they come back to tell me that I was right in the beginning. I don't know how to break that with people, and telling them what to look for doesn't seem to make a difference. Even after these types of occasions, they are just as apt to believe the next version of the same person.
Yep, where does clever diplomacy descend into 'oiliness'? Evasiveness, disingenuousness, all the bad stuff. Like, stop being 'clever' and legitimately engage! Bit this performance does have some place in everyday interactions.
Personally, I much prefer clear & effective communication, as opposed to mincing words around and comforming to presumed expectations. However, experience taught me that it's impossible to communicate with somone unless you align your style to the recipient.
Performative people tend to be rather uncomfortable and outright jarred when you drop the act around them, and they will be quick to paint you as a antagonist and rationalize you as being up to something they can't quit put their finger on, when in fact you're just being genuine and clear as water.
So paradoxically, sometimes (when dealing with some types) you actually come across as more genuine if you put on an act and lean on to manipulative tricks they can follow. That is super weird IMO, but you have to learn to meet people where they at, I suppose.
I just came across a variation of this method on Quora, so I'll just add here:
When someone still won't take a polite, corteous "No, thanks" as a reply - flippinng the script to indignancy seems to work: " I can't believe you are being so disrespectful! I'm going to talk to someone else who is able to actually listen. Have a good day!"
This I haven't personally tried, but I can see how it might work with some people since it puts the onus right back on them to be polite.
Well this is a valuable post, because really, us neurotypicals need some more of that, and my own history with 'boundaries' is pretty confused.
It is fantastic that you had, through your friend, an opportunity to interact closely with deeply traumatised neurotypicals. It's a gift that keeps on giving as your retrospective understanding grows.
Basically, my own experience is that while I am by innate temperament uncompromising and self protective, I am, by emotion, sometimes reduced to pathetic weakness. As an infant, I was apparently wilfull and said 'no' to everything, and not randomly, but because I had my own ideas, however babyish, and I expresed them clearly, because I was verbal early. This was not properly channelled, my upbringing was difficult. The upshot is that as an adult I have little trouble saying no to people who are not part of my emotional landscape, I couldn't gaf really, I understand the psycopath indifference. But I am stupidly accommodating to people I have an emotional investment in. To the point of moulding my whole personality and comportment. Well, now that I have identified this shamefully recently, it is stopping!
When you are brought up as a possession, basically owned, it is hard to draw boundaries. Some of the first boundaries I drew as a teenager were regarding my then eating disorder, which is of course pathological, but you have to start somewhere I guess.
I should say that I have not in my life been practically or financially exploited, my take on this is purely in the emotional sphere. Yes, it's true, sometimes our illusions are the only thing standing between us an unbearable pain. If we recognise the Illusions, there is the possibility of being courageous and breaking free. But if we don't recognise them for what they are, what then?
You are so right saying that for the most part, people don't have any intention towards you at all. They're just winging it, unthunk. And that a "no" is not a personal indictment. Is it possible, though, that your 'no' is neutral, but that the 'no' of a neurotypical really does carry more baggage and therefore cannot be interpreted neutrally? I don't know.
That's an interesting thought. I wonder if that is the case. Sort of like "I'm fine". To me, that is what it means. I don't use it with all the emotionally manipulative underwriting.
How would you deal with someone that won't take no for an answer? Like they just stand there asking you for whatever over and over and being more and more annoying until people around you are telling them to go away?
I really like how you covered this topic. The one part that caught me was parents not willing to tell their kids no and their kids growing up in titled and unbearable. As a relatively new father, I look at it this way: apparently really loves their children will tell them no not only to instill boundaries but because sometimes selling them no keeps them safe from danger. Always telling your kids yes give him a false sense of security and can drive them to do things that might actually end up killing him.
In my effort trying to understand why people can not say no to others, when it is obvious that they should, I am currently working from the understanding that it is born where people are divided up into scapegoats and righteous onlookers. And the righteous onlookers quickly learn that if they say no, they will risk becoming the scapegoats. In my observation, the same people that say that they can never say no, or that are indignant when someone else says no, will always reveal at some point in time, that they think that they are morally superior to others for their self sacrificing subservient attitude.
But I always see this splitting attitude; on the one hand, they are better then you for executing this self defeating attitude, but on the other, they appeal to your sympathy for this same leniency and claim to want to be as assertive as you. The latter one though always comes out very rarely.
And people that do this, they truly believe in the evil and inferior nature of scapegoats. They loath them so much, that they could never take the chance of ever finding themselves in that position. There is a great security in having this idea that there is this sub category of people, that are so despicable that you will always be righteous compared to them, so long as you always defer to people that you deem to have power over your fate. To be able to say no, they first have to change this attitude.
Nice read. As a sensitive soul, I'd like to add an additional piece of advice to the more sensitive souls out there who are still struggling with this issue:
If you can't bring yourself to say "No" because it feels rude, try saying "No, thankyou!" It's all about good manners. :-)
That makes a difference? Interesting
It does, since it conveys the impression that you're being both firm AND considerate of their feelings - and that softens the emotional blow of being turned down gives them less material to gripe against.
I remember once reading about a similar trick of trade from a seasoned diplomat on Quora.
Their reasoning was to never outright say "no" to requests in order to avoid raising antagonism, but rather phrase it as "I'd love to oblige, but I am absolutely unable to due to my wretched hierarchical supervisors."
This sort of attitude, albeit somewhat performative, reduces interpersonal friction and conveys the impression that "Oh, it's someone else who is opposing your wishes - while I'm fighting so hard to serve your best interests but they simply don't let me do what you want even though I'd love to".
Indeed, that is something that works well, though the discerning individual will see that it is a responsibility dodge. That is always a risk.
Interesting, and something worth elaborating: how can we tell we are dealing with discerning individuals, and what difference does it make in terms of communication strategies.
I can try to describe that, but I tend to find that people have a very hard time seeing through the emotional aspects to what I am seeing. Often when I point out that someone is disingenuous, or is sympathy mining I am told that I am being cruel, and making assumptions.
Fast forward several months, and they come back to tell me that I was right in the beginning. I don't know how to break that with people, and telling them what to look for doesn't seem to make a difference. Even after these types of occasions, they are just as apt to believe the next version of the same person.
Yep, where does clever diplomacy descend into 'oiliness'? Evasiveness, disingenuousness, all the bad stuff. Like, stop being 'clever' and legitimately engage! Bit this performance does have some place in everyday interactions.
Personally, I much prefer clear & effective communication, as opposed to mincing words around and comforming to presumed expectations. However, experience taught me that it's impossible to communicate with somone unless you align your style to the recipient.
Performative people tend to be rather uncomfortable and outright jarred when you drop the act around them, and they will be quick to paint you as a antagonist and rationalize you as being up to something they can't quit put their finger on, when in fact you're just being genuine and clear as water.
So paradoxically, sometimes (when dealing with some types) you actually come across as more genuine if you put on an act and lean on to manipulative tricks they can follow. That is super weird IMO, but you have to learn to meet people where they at, I suppose.
I agree with you on both your points. It has its place, but it easily can become something that people see as passing the buck.
Ridiculously, yes It does.
I just came across a variation of this method on Quora, so I'll just add here:
When someone still won't take a polite, corteous "No, thanks" as a reply - flippinng the script to indignancy seems to work: " I can't believe you are being so disrespectful! I'm going to talk to someone else who is able to actually listen. Have a good day!"
This I haven't personally tried, but I can see how it might work with some people since it puts the onus right back on them to be polite.
Well this is a valuable post, because really, us neurotypicals need some more of that, and my own history with 'boundaries' is pretty confused.
It is fantastic that you had, through your friend, an opportunity to interact closely with deeply traumatised neurotypicals. It's a gift that keeps on giving as your retrospective understanding grows.
Basically, my own experience is that while I am by innate temperament uncompromising and self protective, I am, by emotion, sometimes reduced to pathetic weakness. As an infant, I was apparently wilfull and said 'no' to everything, and not randomly, but because I had my own ideas, however babyish, and I expresed them clearly, because I was verbal early. This was not properly channelled, my upbringing was difficult. The upshot is that as an adult I have little trouble saying no to people who are not part of my emotional landscape, I couldn't gaf really, I understand the psycopath indifference. But I am stupidly accommodating to people I have an emotional investment in. To the point of moulding my whole personality and comportment. Well, now that I have identified this shamefully recently, it is stopping!
When you are brought up as a possession, basically owned, it is hard to draw boundaries. Some of the first boundaries I drew as a teenager were regarding my then eating disorder, which is of course pathological, but you have to start somewhere I guess.
I should say that I have not in my life been practically or financially exploited, my take on this is purely in the emotional sphere. Yes, it's true, sometimes our illusions are the only thing standing between us an unbearable pain. If we recognise the Illusions, there is the possibility of being courageous and breaking free. But if we don't recognise them for what they are, what then?
You are so right saying that for the most part, people don't have any intention towards you at all. They're just winging it, unthunk. And that a "no" is not a personal indictment. Is it possible, though, that your 'no' is neutral, but that the 'no' of a neurotypical really does carry more baggage and therefore cannot be interpreted neutrally? I don't know.
That's an interesting thought. I wonder if that is the case. Sort of like "I'm fine". To me, that is what it means. I don't use it with all the emotionally manipulative underwriting.
Oh yes. "FINE! Do what you bloody well want then!" 😃
How would you deal with someone that won't take no for an answer? Like they just stand there asking you for whatever over and over and being more and more annoying until people around you are telling them to go away?
Oh, they will take no for an answer, they just think that they won't. That is a battle of wills, and I am always stronger
Hare definitely needs to come after you.
It is unlikely that he is interested in doing much of anything. He is not a young man any more
I really like how you covered this topic. The one part that caught me was parents not willing to tell their kids no and their kids growing up in titled and unbearable. As a relatively new father, I look at it this way: apparently really loves their children will tell them no not only to instill boundaries but because sometimes selling them no keeps them safe from danger. Always telling your kids yes give him a false sense of security and can drive them to do things that might actually end up killing him.
In my effort trying to understand why people can not say no to others, when it is obvious that they should, I am currently working from the understanding that it is born where people are divided up into scapegoats and righteous onlookers. And the righteous onlookers quickly learn that if they say no, they will risk becoming the scapegoats. In my observation, the same people that say that they can never say no, or that are indignant when someone else says no, will always reveal at some point in time, that they think that they are morally superior to others for their self sacrificing subservient attitude.
But I always see this splitting attitude; on the one hand, they are better then you for executing this self defeating attitude, but on the other, they appeal to your sympathy for this same leniency and claim to want to be as assertive as you. The latter one though always comes out very rarely.
And people that do this, they truly believe in the evil and inferior nature of scapegoats. They loath them so much, that they could never take the chance of ever finding themselves in that position. There is a great security in having this idea that there is this sub category of people, that are so despicable that you will always be righteous compared to them, so long as you always defer to people that you deem to have power over your fate. To be able to say no, they first have to change this attitude.
A good question. I would need to think on that for a bit.