I only once experienced a legitimately toxic relationship in which I was a victim of gaslighting. It was a mess. But once I realized what was happening, I got out and cut ties. Was he a narcissist? I don’t know. But he got away with mistreating me because I let him. I’m fortunate that my loved ones were able to help me realize that it was a bad relationship, but I also get some credit for listening to their warnings.
I tried warning my brother a while back about his wife’s bad behavior but he wasn’t open to it at the time. They’re now separated but he’s still trying to save their marriage; despite her past and ongoing abuse, he just can’t accept that she’s not going to change. I think he wants to believe that she loves him enough to show remorse for her bad behavior and change it, but I personally don’t think she is going to.
So I agree that it’s up to us to guard ourselves against bad behavior, and to recognize that we don’t have control over how other people treat us, only our response to their treatment.
I had to learn that more fully in therapy. And as to why both my brother and I were targeted by people that don’t respect boundaries, I think it’s because we both grew up as children of people with poor boundaries. My parents unintentionally trained their children to have very weak boundaries. Boundary ignorers can sniff out people like this without trying- do you struggle with saying no? Are you “too nice” and do you work hard to gain others’ approval? They have a radar for people like that.
I’m lucky to have met my husband after I broke off my engagement with Mr. Gaslighter. The number one characteristic of my husband that led me to trust him and eventually marry him was that he was able to respect my boundaries, and didn’t flip out when I told him no.
My advice to those recovering from bad relationships is to work on your boundary-holding. As we’re not all psychopaths like Athena, we’re more likely to consider someone’s feelings and desire their approval by default. It’s good to self-assess periodically and ask oneself, do I feel safe telling this person no? If the answer is yes, good! If not, put some serious distance between yourself and that person.
This was fun to read - I've wanted to know more about that room mate guy for years....since you said he would love nothing more than being allowed back in your life.
As hard as it was for him, those kinds of responses were probably the best thing for him to hear. Not that I should care about what is good for him, lol
THIS ATHENA ❤. I am literally just so sick and tired of all these so-called Empath channels and sites constantly blameshifting their shitty relationships on people with psychopathy and/or cluster b's. Relationships are between 2 people; it is a dynamic. Yes, I have been abused, but I am aware that I played a part in that and I was also still a child. HOWEVER..... As an adult, homie don't play that ish no more, big girl pants on now ya know? With my cluster b disorders in remission I just won't get into that dance. 🌹
How many times in my life -- hmm, can't think of any examples. I wondered why, then I read the stuff about your roommate. I have insecurities, really, and I have no doubt somebody could figure out how to exploit them. But it would have to be a lot more clever than that guy's tactics.
If somebody tells me I'm not attractive to them, I take them at their word. Because I expect it to be a simple statement of fact. Which means there's no point in seeking their approval. (If they make a thing of it, then it becomes suspicious and I distance myself.) If they flatter me about something, I usually have my own judgment about the thing, and I am inclined to trust my judgment more than theirs. *Especially* if it's something I'm insecure about. Instead putting me beneath them, I'm liable to come away believing that they had low standards, which puts them beneath me.
If someone starts a sentence with "I thought I told you," then it better be about something that I specifically committed to do especially for them just the way they like it, because otherwise, WTF? Actually, if it was something I committed to do specially for them, then also WTF, I expect some appreciation for my sincere efforts, and I would accept feedback -- but, sincere feedback.
I've certainly worried about the idea of people exploiting my insecurities, but nobody's really done it yet. I guess I'm not the target audience for that limited bag of tricks?
This is golden and something I wish more people would know about. I even left so-called 'support circles' because of their lack of implementing this type of structure - looking at YOUR part (not necessarily your *fault,* but exactly this; taking your inventory, examining why might we (actually, I'll use 'I') be attracted to these types of people, why did I only stay with XYZ type of people for so long, why did I put up with ABC type of mistreatment, how can I further implement boundaries against DEF red flags instead of just saying 'oh, thank you! a red flag! because I'm just glad to be gifted anything.
I started doing this near the end of last year, after I missed the mute button on a call when a very-not-nice person came in the room and my friends overheard her. I didn't even know it was messed up what she was doing, because I had grown up in environments like hers, like the one before her, etc; so just as you're saying here in examining the why, I had to flip *my* side of the codependent magnet and ask for help to get the fuck out of there. I certainly did it, and it's certainly not an easy process recuperating from that (can I borrow your no-anxiety, please?) - and I tend to feel like it took me 'too long' to realize my portion and start weeding out 'who am I overextending myself with? who do I need to cut off?' and get to this point of having healthy boundaries and actually *keeping* them, but shit; I'm only in my mid-twenties so it could have been ages before I did that.
The roommate story made me crack up and also realize that while I would have certainly remade the whole damn dish (ew, past me) at one point, I'm now at a point where I finally would react the same way, too. I feel like it's worth it to make people angry - and I certainly have - by not catering to their bullshit. And as for people not finding someone attractive, my aroace ass would be grateful, but if you're too much for someone, I feel like they'd do better finding less. ✌🏼 Great post, Athena, this one was super helpful in examining progress.
I went to a support group with someone, and it amazed me. The only thing that they did was repeat the same sob stories over and again, just reliving people's pity for their situations. I declined to attend with my friend again, and after two weeks, she also decided that she couldn't take the circle jerk of a pity party.
Sounds like that roommate was using "the neg" on you. I've heard about sleazy guys who teach other losers how to ensnare women that way. Lucky you that you saw through it.
What you write here, your answer is exactly what famous Czech and Slovak psychiatrists and psychologists who specialize in relationships say. I am from former Czechoslovakia and I have their books. You are very wise and to read your articles is real pleasure. You give good life advice. Thank you.
To summarize what Athena wrote, “Top of the food chain, it's just the way that I do things”.
Two questions maybe 3: Are people redeemable? Since positive feelings aren't intertwined with long-term emotions and the people they were shared with, does the same hold true for negative ones?
Contingent on one being yes, what must be done? Clearly not a step-by-step, but it surely there's a right and wrong approach to trying to make amends with a psychopath.
Good grief. First, I just don't get it that some people drift along and never introspect and consider that living, and second, as a cook myself, to hell with that guy and his sun dried tomato aversion.
Something strange occurred to me. When I was young and stupid, I spent years ignoring red flags in relationships and bending over backwards to please. However, the interesting thing is how this was affected by my somewhat aspie traits, largely outgrown. A dreadful man I was dating turned up for an outing and said, sorry, I don't like what you're wearing. And me, being literal, graciously said, ah, don't worry about it, I'm wearing a normal outfit, I know I look nice, I don't need compliments. And he repeated it more forcefully, and suggested I should change ,and told me he was a 'cool colour person', and I was wearing red, which he hated. And I just went, wtaf? Similar not getting it on my part. He told me his mother doesn't like me. And I shrugged and said, oh well, never mind, who cares? Outside lf certain cultures, I didnt know it was even a thing to care what your patents thought of who you were dating. Regardless, I had presented myself very nicely turned out to his mother, was very polite, and genuinely expressed an interest in her hobbies as they were mine too. So whatever, I didnt give a toss what she thought, however much he complained. I am so grateful for this, that I hadat least SOME boundaries and defences at a time when I was otherwise extremely vulnerable and all at sea and failing so spectacularly in so many areas.
So I'm a bit late to reading (and commenting) because I got sick, and am still a little sick, but I just read it, so here's my comment on it:
My gosh ERM is entitled, and the way you handled and responded to ERM's entitled and toxic behavior seems like the appropriate way to respond to it IMO. I'll admit that I'm incredibly, and I mean INCREDIBLY insecure. Things people say to me and about me affect me really easily (though to be honest, I think I'd still find someone like ERM more annoying than worth my time, hahah!) and sometimes I let my emotions get the better of me and make really bad decisions that I later regret, though I'm trying to be more self-confident, that should effectively make bad decisions happen less since I get insecure all the time when most people always disagree with my takes. (I take responsibility for how I react and being more confident in my viewpoints I think might help) When it comes to people using tactics to try to damage my self-esteem, it usually works. But anyway, it sounds pretty annoying how ERM is so entitled that he couldn't just simply pick the sundried tomatoes out. Like, that's so easy to do, I don't understand him making a big deal out of that.
I've never really cared to be in any romantic relationships except for when I was a dumb kid and thought I did because of people making it a norm, even when there was a girl who used to like me romantically, I never felt the same (I turned out asexual, go figure) however, in terms of a "friendship" I've been in, I was a victim of abuse from someone on the other side of the globe, though I wasn't entirely innocent myself either because I kinda feel like a jerk for not being honest.
My "friendship" with this guy started out when I used to open Instagram everyday (that boat sank by the time that "friendship" finally ended) and this guy was introduced to me through my YouTube Channel "Larry Koopa 64 DS Hacker" where I upload videos on my Super Mario 64 DS rom hack, LarryDS. He DMed me on Instagram with "Hey, I like your videos" and then he wanted to be friends, things seemed alright at first but then things started to go wrong when he saw I was following someone who followed me and he was asking me to block the person because the person was his "toxic ex girlfriend" which I didn't wanna do to another person for no reason, he was persistent about it and said things like "it's unfair to me for my ex to have the ability to message my friends" and I just didn't wanna argue, so I blocked the person to make him happy and went on with the rest of the day
It got worse when it was the point that he knew I live in America and I knew he lived in South Australia and he noticed I was awake at 4AM and questioned it. I told him I was busy working on LarryDS, because sometimes when I'm motivated, I stay awake a long time to finish work on something. Somehow, he got the idea that I "can stay up super long and never need to sleep" because I have ADHD, when ADHD doesn't work that way which was when he asked me to get Instagram on my phone so that he can voice chat with me and then he asked me to get Nintendo Switch online and then he started VCing me literally every single day to talk to him and play with him, and he got upset when I told him I wanted to go to sleep and would literally keep me up until I see the sun rising and until he went to bed. This was going on for like, the first 10 to 14 days-ish of August in 2021, and it was bad enough he was a massive jerk the whole time as well throughout that, like he got upset with me for viewing one of my actual friends' streams for example because he wanted to play, and I wanted to watch the stream, and then when I finished watching her stream, which was an hour, I was going to get the Switch and one of my older siblings had it, and then he told me "This is all your fucking fault for watching [friend's name]'s stream!" and was throwing a giant tantrum about it until my sibling finished using the Switch. Another instance was when he got mad at me for saying that autistic people generally start speaking around 4 (or 3, I don't remember the general) just because he started speaking at 7, and got upset with me and acted like I'm bigoted against autistic people when I'm autistic myself, and that's also dumb when, why get upset with something that's general? That doesn't mean I'm applying it to everyone, it's just how it is for most people, for instance, most guys are much taller than 5'05" but here I am at 5'05", which I tried to explain to him, but he was too stupid to understand generalization, and yet he had no problem telling me "I'm surprised you're older than me because you're shorter than me and you're higher pitched than me." over and over again. Although I knew I hated him because of him getting mad at me over everything, he also claimed he had only one year left to live, so I thought I could torture myself for the whole year for the benefit of him at the expense of myself because apparently despite being so mean to me I was his "best friend" and I felt bad, but I overestimated how much I can take. Then I got stress sick and he started saying how much he was gonna kill himself if I don't get back online and then he faked his suicide on VC with two other friends over it. I was worried so I got back online and saw he was online and well. I didn't wanna have to deal with him anymore, but I didn't wanna tell him I hate him because I was scared about how he'd react to it, and was scared if he'd start something against me, so my family told me to tell him that they didn't want me to talk to him anymore, so I went with that.
His dumbass literally was attempting to manipulate me by trying to make himself look like a super selfless and great friend who means well by telling me "I felt bad you were always so busy on LarryDS so I wanted to give you a break by relaxing playing games with me" or something like that
Despite the fact he was throwing a tantrum and saying I was "abandoning him" every time I wanted to go to sleep, and even when I literally had appointments to get to earlier in the morning and had to go to sleep earlier in order to make it, and despite the fact he said it was all my fucking fault for watching my friend's stream because he wanted to play with me because he "has no friends" and his parents don't let him use his YouTube channel so he has "nothing to do" or something.
As for gaslighting, he used to say how nice I was and all that and how I was a good friend, but then later on he started criticizing me constantly (saying I'm being too lazy to get a job for example and reminding me how he's younger and had work experience, despite the fact I live in the middle of nowhere and don't have a drivers license and have to rely on my mom to drive me places that would be miles away and she always said she didn't feel like it and would be using that to criticize ME because one of my older siblings has a fundraiser online that he chose to keep linking around and I straight up told him to just stop linking it around if it bothers him so much and that I never asked him to and he claimed I "hypnotized him into doing it " which is completely ridiculous, even though he made his intentions as clear as water when he stalked my twitter and saw me retweet my sibling's fundraiser because my sibling asked me to, he told me he hoped by sharing it around that he'd get my family's approval, because that was the time I told him my family doesn't like him. He was also saying how much of a horrible person I am for "thinking all autistic people speak at 4" when I never said that because he could never let the fact he can't understand a simple generalized statistic go. He'd also whine about completely pointless things such as going all "I just don't understand why you got your first debit card a year after I got my first debit card when you're a year older than me." like that even matters and is just criticizing me over bullshit I had no control over, and he said "But we're friends who tell each other everything" and used that to try to get me to tell him secrets I have. One of the most stressful things about talking to him was waiting for the moment he'd say something to criticize me for one thing or another and be "the voice of reason" by telling me I "can't work on LarryDS all day" when he never gave me a chance to make progress on it at all, and "ask for money online to move out" and I have to work to earn to move out, when I'm not the one who started the gofundme for moving out of the house because I barely care about moving when the house is literally just a house, that's all I need a house to be, my older siblings and my mother are the only ones who care about moving out of the house. LarryDS has literally always been my personal priority, as I don't care much about moving, and proceed to go on about everything he hates that I said in the past such as the fact he never neglected to bring up the "when autistic children typically start speaking" bit despite the fact I cannot stress enough that I'm autistic myself, which he was aware of and yet acted like I'm ablest anyway over the fact he's the one who can't understand what the concept of a generalized statistic is. He was saying the fact I don't have a drivers license is my own fault, and maybe it is to an extent, but I asked my dad when I was going to school to approve me going to drivers classes and he didn't wanna approve it because I was a teenager, then I just haven't found an opportunity for driver classes since)
The worst thing about this is that's not even where it ends because he just didn't give up and hopped to discord because I wasn't using Instagram and had him blocked on Instagram, I just didn't have the courage to say no or tell him how I felt until it was the point he realized he couldn't control me anymore, so he posted on the Super Mario 64 DS Hacking discord server on my hack channel "Seeing as you ruined our friendship" and then people were confused and he was like "It's a long story" and then they were questioning why he brought it up if he's choosing not to elaborate and then started trolling him and he went all "YOU ALL ARE GONNA BELIEVE LARRY KOOPA 64 DS HACKER BECAUSE HE'S MORE POPULAR THAN ME WHEN I'M RIGHT! WELL GO AHEAD WITHOUT HEARING MY SIDE OF THE STORY AND BELIEVE HIM BECAUSE HE'S POPULAR AND I'M NOT! FUCK THIS!" or something like that, but it made me really mad and I finally told him to fuck off and I fucking hate him and the admin permanently banned him from the server. Honestly, I should have said I hated him much sooner and should have been more honest about how I felt inside instead of try to convince myself to torture myself for him, but anyway, I think that says enough about the kind of person he was, oh yes, and he constantly used his autism as an excuse, despite the fact I'm autistic and I don't act the way he was acting.
Gosh, I think I typed a lot when it came to toxic friendship, and the worst part is that the list still goes on. That was the worst "friendship" I've had in my entire life, and it played a big part in making 2021 one of the worst years I've had in my life alongside 2020. He also claimed to be an introvert despite the fact he wanted to VC everyday, which was also exhausting for me because I'm an introvert and I just never really wanna talk everyday. (2022's been... meh... it's had it's ups and downs, which is better than mostly bad) Sometimes, I wish I was able to respond to toxic people the same way you do.
That guy is a very good example of toxic. If someone comes on strong right from the outset, I always suggest distance and being coolly indifferent. If they sense that there is a very high bar to clear to be friends, they often look for an easier target.
How can we differentiate between honest complements and the ones people say to be nice? I think being objective helps, but don't 'most' people have a habit of being self-deprecating?
The difference is in their actual manner of speaking. Someone that is self-deprecating won't have that tone of fishing for more. I also think that a lot of self-deprecation does come from that internal subconscious motivation of, "Oh, go on... no really, go on."
I meant being self deprecating prevents people from differentiating between the two types of compliments, does it not? Like... Do I really sing well or is that person just being nice?
I only once experienced a legitimately toxic relationship in which I was a victim of gaslighting. It was a mess. But once I realized what was happening, I got out and cut ties. Was he a narcissist? I don’t know. But he got away with mistreating me because I let him. I’m fortunate that my loved ones were able to help me realize that it was a bad relationship, but I also get some credit for listening to their warnings.
I tried warning my brother a while back about his wife’s bad behavior but he wasn’t open to it at the time. They’re now separated but he’s still trying to save their marriage; despite her past and ongoing abuse, he just can’t accept that she’s not going to change. I think he wants to believe that she loves him enough to show remorse for her bad behavior and change it, but I personally don’t think she is going to.
So I agree that it’s up to us to guard ourselves against bad behavior, and to recognize that we don’t have control over how other people treat us, only our response to their treatment.
I had to learn that more fully in therapy. And as to why both my brother and I were targeted by people that don’t respect boundaries, I think it’s because we both grew up as children of people with poor boundaries. My parents unintentionally trained their children to have very weak boundaries. Boundary ignorers can sniff out people like this without trying- do you struggle with saying no? Are you “too nice” and do you work hard to gain others’ approval? They have a radar for people like that.
I’m lucky to have met my husband after I broke off my engagement with Mr. Gaslighter. The number one characteristic of my husband that led me to trust him and eventually marry him was that he was able to respect my boundaries, and didn’t flip out when I told him no.
My advice to those recovering from bad relationships is to work on your boundary-holding. As we’re not all psychopaths like Athena, we’re more likely to consider someone’s feelings and desire their approval by default. It’s good to self-assess periodically and ask oneself, do I feel safe telling this person no? If the answer is yes, good! If not, put some serious distance between yourself and that person.
You definitely get a lot of credit for being open to hearing what others were seeing, and acting on it.
Radars: also work in reverse:
A man told me today "Thanks for calling". Harmless, right.
No, given our relative social standing, it was not. It is his version of "buttering me up" for a financial strike.
Somewhere we all know verbal communication is 7% words. Meaning, as I hope I show, "Thanks for calling", can mean "other things".
Absolutely true
This was fun to read - I've wanted to know more about that room mate guy for years....since you said he would love nothing more than being allowed back in your life.
As hard as it was for him, those kinds of responses were probably the best thing for him to hear. Not that I should care about what is good for him, lol
Unfortunately, he has not changed.
Omg!! "Apparently roommate man missed the memo"....made me laugh out loud!!
Excellent
THIS ATHENA ❤. I am literally just so sick and tired of all these so-called Empath channels and sites constantly blameshifting their shitty relationships on people with psychopathy and/or cluster b's. Relationships are between 2 people; it is a dynamic. Yes, I have been abused, but I am aware that I played a part in that and I was also still a child. HOWEVER..... As an adult, homie don't play that ish no more, big girl pants on now ya know? With my cluster b disorders in remission I just won't get into that dance. 🌹
That's awesome, congrats
How many times in my life -- hmm, can't think of any examples. I wondered why, then I read the stuff about your roommate. I have insecurities, really, and I have no doubt somebody could figure out how to exploit them. But it would have to be a lot more clever than that guy's tactics.
If somebody tells me I'm not attractive to them, I take them at their word. Because I expect it to be a simple statement of fact. Which means there's no point in seeking their approval. (If they make a thing of it, then it becomes suspicious and I distance myself.) If they flatter me about something, I usually have my own judgment about the thing, and I am inclined to trust my judgment more than theirs. *Especially* if it's something I'm insecure about. Instead putting me beneath them, I'm liable to come away believing that they had low standards, which puts them beneath me.
If someone starts a sentence with "I thought I told you," then it better be about something that I specifically committed to do especially for them just the way they like it, because otherwise, WTF? Actually, if it was something I committed to do specially for them, then also WTF, I expect some appreciation for my sincere efforts, and I would accept feedback -- but, sincere feedback.
I've certainly worried about the idea of people exploiting my insecurities, but nobody's really done it yet. I guess I'm not the target audience for that limited bag of tricks?
Perhaps, or perhaps they have tried, but because their particular set of tools don't work on you, it fell on deaf ears.
Yeah, probably some have, and I just saw it as annoying rather than as a small part of a long game (since I thankfully never made the cut!).
Athena,
I'm surprised you didn't put on your toe shoes and kick that dreadful person's nuts to hell.
Ha!
Gotcha!
“I thought....
Athena, isn't this often a key phrase for these?
I listen for it.
With certain people, it is common, "I thought (you told me, you agreed: implied) .... some such BS."
Good advice
This is golden and something I wish more people would know about. I even left so-called 'support circles' because of their lack of implementing this type of structure - looking at YOUR part (not necessarily your *fault,* but exactly this; taking your inventory, examining why might we (actually, I'll use 'I') be attracted to these types of people, why did I only stay with XYZ type of people for so long, why did I put up with ABC type of mistreatment, how can I further implement boundaries against DEF red flags instead of just saying 'oh, thank you! a red flag! because I'm just glad to be gifted anything.
I started doing this near the end of last year, after I missed the mute button on a call when a very-not-nice person came in the room and my friends overheard her. I didn't even know it was messed up what she was doing, because I had grown up in environments like hers, like the one before her, etc; so just as you're saying here in examining the why, I had to flip *my* side of the codependent magnet and ask for help to get the fuck out of there. I certainly did it, and it's certainly not an easy process recuperating from that (can I borrow your no-anxiety, please?) - and I tend to feel like it took me 'too long' to realize my portion and start weeding out 'who am I overextending myself with? who do I need to cut off?' and get to this point of having healthy boundaries and actually *keeping* them, but shit; I'm only in my mid-twenties so it could have been ages before I did that.
The roommate story made me crack up and also realize that while I would have certainly remade the whole damn dish (ew, past me) at one point, I'm now at a point where I finally would react the same way, too. I feel like it's worth it to make people angry - and I certainly have - by not catering to their bullshit. And as for people not finding someone attractive, my aroace ass would be grateful, but if you're too much for someone, I feel like they'd do better finding less. ✌🏼 Great post, Athena, this one was super helpful in examining progress.
I went to a support group with someone, and it amazed me. The only thing that they did was repeat the same sob stories over and again, just reliving people's pity for their situations. I declined to attend with my friend again, and after two weeks, she also decided that she couldn't take the circle jerk of a pity party.
You nailed it Athena. 👏
Sounds like that roommate was using "the neg" on you. I've heard about sleazy guys who teach other losers how to ensnare women that way. Lucky you that you saw through it.
Yes, it is a ridiculous tactic
What you write here, your answer is exactly what famous Czech and Slovak psychiatrists and psychologists who specialize in relationships say. I am from former Czechoslovakia and I have their books. You are very wise and to read your articles is real pleasure. You give good life advice. Thank you.
Thank you for reading what I write, and the kind words, Daša
To summarize what Athena wrote, “Top of the food chain, it's just the way that I do things”.
Two questions maybe 3: Are people redeemable? Since positive feelings aren't intertwined with long-term emotions and the people they were shared with, does the same hold true for negative ones?
Contingent on one being yes, what must be done? Clearly not a step-by-step, but it surely there's a right and wrong approach to trying to make amends with a psychopath.
I think that's true of everyone
Good grief. First, I just don't get it that some people drift along and never introspect and consider that living, and second, as a cook myself, to hell with that guy and his sun dried tomato aversion.
Something strange occurred to me. When I was young and stupid, I spent years ignoring red flags in relationships and bending over backwards to please. However, the interesting thing is how this was affected by my somewhat aspie traits, largely outgrown. A dreadful man I was dating turned up for an outing and said, sorry, I don't like what you're wearing. And me, being literal, graciously said, ah, don't worry about it, I'm wearing a normal outfit, I know I look nice, I don't need compliments. And he repeated it more forcefully, and suggested I should change ,and told me he was a 'cool colour person', and I was wearing red, which he hated. And I just went, wtaf? Similar not getting it on my part. He told me his mother doesn't like me. And I shrugged and said, oh well, never mind, who cares? Outside lf certain cultures, I didnt know it was even a thing to care what your patents thought of who you were dating. Regardless, I had presented myself very nicely turned out to his mother, was very polite, and genuinely expressed an interest in her hobbies as they were mine too. So whatever, I didnt give a toss what she thought, however much he complained. I am so grateful for this, that I hadat least SOME boundaries and defences at a time when I was otherwise extremely vulnerable and all at sea and failing so spectacularly in so many areas.
He sounds like a tool bag
Yep, I was young and stupid. Luckily the next bloke was a lovely person.
So I'm a bit late to reading (and commenting) because I got sick, and am still a little sick, but I just read it, so here's my comment on it:
My gosh ERM is entitled, and the way you handled and responded to ERM's entitled and toxic behavior seems like the appropriate way to respond to it IMO. I'll admit that I'm incredibly, and I mean INCREDIBLY insecure. Things people say to me and about me affect me really easily (though to be honest, I think I'd still find someone like ERM more annoying than worth my time, hahah!) and sometimes I let my emotions get the better of me and make really bad decisions that I later regret, though I'm trying to be more self-confident, that should effectively make bad decisions happen less since I get insecure all the time when most people always disagree with my takes. (I take responsibility for how I react and being more confident in my viewpoints I think might help) When it comes to people using tactics to try to damage my self-esteem, it usually works. But anyway, it sounds pretty annoying how ERM is so entitled that he couldn't just simply pick the sundried tomatoes out. Like, that's so easy to do, I don't understand him making a big deal out of that.
I've never really cared to be in any romantic relationships except for when I was a dumb kid and thought I did because of people making it a norm, even when there was a girl who used to like me romantically, I never felt the same (I turned out asexual, go figure) however, in terms of a "friendship" I've been in, I was a victim of abuse from someone on the other side of the globe, though I wasn't entirely innocent myself either because I kinda feel like a jerk for not being honest.
My "friendship" with this guy started out when I used to open Instagram everyday (that boat sank by the time that "friendship" finally ended) and this guy was introduced to me through my YouTube Channel "Larry Koopa 64 DS Hacker" where I upload videos on my Super Mario 64 DS rom hack, LarryDS. He DMed me on Instagram with "Hey, I like your videos" and then he wanted to be friends, things seemed alright at first but then things started to go wrong when he saw I was following someone who followed me and he was asking me to block the person because the person was his "toxic ex girlfriend" which I didn't wanna do to another person for no reason, he was persistent about it and said things like "it's unfair to me for my ex to have the ability to message my friends" and I just didn't wanna argue, so I blocked the person to make him happy and went on with the rest of the day
It got worse when it was the point that he knew I live in America and I knew he lived in South Australia and he noticed I was awake at 4AM and questioned it. I told him I was busy working on LarryDS, because sometimes when I'm motivated, I stay awake a long time to finish work on something. Somehow, he got the idea that I "can stay up super long and never need to sleep" because I have ADHD, when ADHD doesn't work that way which was when he asked me to get Instagram on my phone so that he can voice chat with me and then he asked me to get Nintendo Switch online and then he started VCing me literally every single day to talk to him and play with him, and he got upset when I told him I wanted to go to sleep and would literally keep me up until I see the sun rising and until he went to bed. This was going on for like, the first 10 to 14 days-ish of August in 2021, and it was bad enough he was a massive jerk the whole time as well throughout that, like he got upset with me for viewing one of my actual friends' streams for example because he wanted to play, and I wanted to watch the stream, and then when I finished watching her stream, which was an hour, I was going to get the Switch and one of my older siblings had it, and then he told me "This is all your fucking fault for watching [friend's name]'s stream!" and was throwing a giant tantrum about it until my sibling finished using the Switch. Another instance was when he got mad at me for saying that autistic people generally start speaking around 4 (or 3, I don't remember the general) just because he started speaking at 7, and got upset with me and acted like I'm bigoted against autistic people when I'm autistic myself, and that's also dumb when, why get upset with something that's general? That doesn't mean I'm applying it to everyone, it's just how it is for most people, for instance, most guys are much taller than 5'05" but here I am at 5'05", which I tried to explain to him, but he was too stupid to understand generalization, and yet he had no problem telling me "I'm surprised you're older than me because you're shorter than me and you're higher pitched than me." over and over again. Although I knew I hated him because of him getting mad at me over everything, he also claimed he had only one year left to live, so I thought I could torture myself for the whole year for the benefit of him at the expense of myself because apparently despite being so mean to me I was his "best friend" and I felt bad, but I overestimated how much I can take. Then I got stress sick and he started saying how much he was gonna kill himself if I don't get back online and then he faked his suicide on VC with two other friends over it. I was worried so I got back online and saw he was online and well. I didn't wanna have to deal with him anymore, but I didn't wanna tell him I hate him because I was scared about how he'd react to it, and was scared if he'd start something against me, so my family told me to tell him that they didn't want me to talk to him anymore, so I went with that.
His dumbass literally was attempting to manipulate me by trying to make himself look like a super selfless and great friend who means well by telling me "I felt bad you were always so busy on LarryDS so I wanted to give you a break by relaxing playing games with me" or something like that
Despite the fact he was throwing a tantrum and saying I was "abandoning him" every time I wanted to go to sleep, and even when I literally had appointments to get to earlier in the morning and had to go to sleep earlier in order to make it, and despite the fact he said it was all my fucking fault for watching my friend's stream because he wanted to play with me because he "has no friends" and his parents don't let him use his YouTube channel so he has "nothing to do" or something.
As for gaslighting, he used to say how nice I was and all that and how I was a good friend, but then later on he started criticizing me constantly (saying I'm being too lazy to get a job for example and reminding me how he's younger and had work experience, despite the fact I live in the middle of nowhere and don't have a drivers license and have to rely on my mom to drive me places that would be miles away and she always said she didn't feel like it and would be using that to criticize ME because one of my older siblings has a fundraiser online that he chose to keep linking around and I straight up told him to just stop linking it around if it bothers him so much and that I never asked him to and he claimed I "hypnotized him into doing it " which is completely ridiculous, even though he made his intentions as clear as water when he stalked my twitter and saw me retweet my sibling's fundraiser because my sibling asked me to, he told me he hoped by sharing it around that he'd get my family's approval, because that was the time I told him my family doesn't like him. He was also saying how much of a horrible person I am for "thinking all autistic people speak at 4" when I never said that because he could never let the fact he can't understand a simple generalized statistic go. He'd also whine about completely pointless things such as going all "I just don't understand why you got your first debit card a year after I got my first debit card when you're a year older than me." like that even matters and is just criticizing me over bullshit I had no control over, and he said "But we're friends who tell each other everything" and used that to try to get me to tell him secrets I have. One of the most stressful things about talking to him was waiting for the moment he'd say something to criticize me for one thing or another and be "the voice of reason" by telling me I "can't work on LarryDS all day" when he never gave me a chance to make progress on it at all, and "ask for money online to move out" and I have to work to earn to move out, when I'm not the one who started the gofundme for moving out of the house because I barely care about moving when the house is literally just a house, that's all I need a house to be, my older siblings and my mother are the only ones who care about moving out of the house. LarryDS has literally always been my personal priority, as I don't care much about moving, and proceed to go on about everything he hates that I said in the past such as the fact he never neglected to bring up the "when autistic children typically start speaking" bit despite the fact I cannot stress enough that I'm autistic myself, which he was aware of and yet acted like I'm ablest anyway over the fact he's the one who can't understand what the concept of a generalized statistic is. He was saying the fact I don't have a drivers license is my own fault, and maybe it is to an extent, but I asked my dad when I was going to school to approve me going to drivers classes and he didn't wanna approve it because I was a teenager, then I just haven't found an opportunity for driver classes since)
The worst thing about this is that's not even where it ends because he just didn't give up and hopped to discord because I wasn't using Instagram and had him blocked on Instagram, I just didn't have the courage to say no or tell him how I felt until it was the point he realized he couldn't control me anymore, so he posted on the Super Mario 64 DS Hacking discord server on my hack channel "Seeing as you ruined our friendship" and then people were confused and he was like "It's a long story" and then they were questioning why he brought it up if he's choosing not to elaborate and then started trolling him and he went all "YOU ALL ARE GONNA BELIEVE LARRY KOOPA 64 DS HACKER BECAUSE HE'S MORE POPULAR THAN ME WHEN I'M RIGHT! WELL GO AHEAD WITHOUT HEARING MY SIDE OF THE STORY AND BELIEVE HIM BECAUSE HE'S POPULAR AND I'M NOT! FUCK THIS!" or something like that, but it made me really mad and I finally told him to fuck off and I fucking hate him and the admin permanently banned him from the server. Honestly, I should have said I hated him much sooner and should have been more honest about how I felt inside instead of try to convince myself to torture myself for him, but anyway, I think that says enough about the kind of person he was, oh yes, and he constantly used his autism as an excuse, despite the fact I'm autistic and I don't act the way he was acting.
Gosh, I think I typed a lot when it came to toxic friendship, and the worst part is that the list still goes on. That was the worst "friendship" I've had in my entire life, and it played a big part in making 2021 one of the worst years I've had in my life alongside 2020. He also claimed to be an introvert despite the fact he wanted to VC everyday, which was also exhausting for me because I'm an introvert and I just never really wanna talk everyday. (2022's been... meh... it's had it's ups and downs, which is better than mostly bad) Sometimes, I wish I was able to respond to toxic people the same way you do.
That guy is a very good example of toxic. If someone comes on strong right from the outset, I always suggest distance and being coolly indifferent. If they sense that there is a very high bar to clear to be friends, they often look for an easier target.
How can we differentiate between honest complements and the ones people say to be nice? I think being objective helps, but don't 'most' people have a habit of being self-deprecating?
The difference is in their actual manner of speaking. Someone that is self-deprecating won't have that tone of fishing for more. I also think that a lot of self-deprecation does come from that internal subconscious motivation of, "Oh, go on... no really, go on."
I meant being self deprecating prevents people from differentiating between the two types of compliments, does it not? Like... Do I really sing well or is that person just being nice?
Ah, I understand your point. I can see that being a barrier to reading intentions.
“This never occurred to entitled roommate man who will now be known as ERM” LMAO Athena please do not stop writing.
You do write very well .
Thank you