I used to be one of these people who complain about everything. I was a professional complainer. I think depression drove that too, that was my favorite complaint actually, my own treatable illness tsk tsk. And god, how annoying I was! I'd wake up every day and my brain would automatically look for something to complain about and that would be my topic for the day. I remember when I was ill, even during periods when the symptoms weren't so bad, I felt this need for attention. Deep down I liked to be like that. I refused treatment for many years, partly because of the depression that makes you feel like you don't deserve to be cured and that there's no hope for you and partly because I was afraid of losing people's attention.
But I didn't want collective attention, like, going into a class room and having everyone there super worried about me, asking what happened (okay, maybe sometimes), because I like being a more anonymous person. But I pissed off people in my circle. Sometimes I even noticed that they were extremely uncomfortable, especially when they were having a really happy time and I'd come to suck all the positivity out of the place, but I kept going. And I remember getting angry when people started not caring anymore, so I started talking about bigger problems, complaining even more, being dramatic and lying. Like, if you don't want to give me free and spontaneous attention, I'll make you give it to me through pain. I'll trigger your empathy so that you only think of me. I wasn't content with my suffering, I wanted other people to suffer with me and for me.
At some point I noticed that people would do almost anything I wanted, because they felt sorry for me. Most of the time I remember doing all this consciously, I got addicted to it, playing the victim and spreading the word about how the world was cruel with me, was conspiring against me, yada yada.
My closest friends even tried to help me, of course, but they have their own lives and duties and most of the time they avoided me because they knew that if they came to talk to me I'd have a long and tedious list of complaints and that they would "have" to listen to me for hours and maybe do things for me. I don't blame them for that.
At some point people got tired of me and I felt like I didn't have any options either. I still tried to keep the drama for a while, but after a big argument with a family member, in which I was extremely aggressive, I realized how far this was going.
Well... That's what I remember feeling back then when I was a professional complainer. I just look at it all now and see how much of my precious time I've given to something so stupid. Today I'm much better and depression is no longer an issue, but sometimes I still feel the urge to start complaining about something and play the victim, just to get a little attention. But I'm trying to suppress the urge as much as I can and become a decent human being, and I'm actually doing a great job so far. I now realize that complaints aren't going to get me anywhere and that they're just a waste of my time and creativity. It's not worth so much effort just to have the false feeling that people care about me.
Random people often come to me too, to complain about their lives, tell all their dramas... And god, how annoying that is. Today I realize how much I bothered people and how f*cking annoying I was.
I hope your considerations appear in some form in the future, it's interesting to me what you make of such convoluted, unhelpful and yet entirely neurotypical behaviour.
I don't think I could address it better than she did frankly. While I understand that there is some complaining that has it's place in the world, when it becomes an addiction it is just as bad as any other addiction. The result is being alone because it drives people away. It also robs a person of their joy.
The brain filters out a tremendous amount of information on a constant basis. There is a video that demonstrates this where people are talking, and a man in a gorilla suit shows up. Most people, for whatever reason, don't even notice him. Their brains filter him out completely, and until they watch the video again, many don't even believe when they are told there was a guy in a gorilla suit.
What the brain focuses on formulates your world, and your perception. When you train your brain to focus on the negative, it will seek out the negative, thus creating a bleaker and bleaker perception. People that complain all the time are shifting their worldview to a negative one, and that is all they will see. You are feeding a computer a code that it will then implement and run on. Without changing the code, changing the focus, changing the behavior, the perception will remain a bleak one.
It is indeed a very good description of and relection on the phenomenon.
I know the gorilla suit example, it's pretty amazing! I can understand the bad effect of focussing on the negative and thus missing the positive, it's a good general rule not to do that, but depending on the person and their mental condition, there may actually be no possibility of enjoying any positives. Anhedonia cannot be willed away, other things have to be addressed first to fix it indirectly.
Also, the unfortunate consequence of just driving people away has a parallel in what used to be called BPD. The unregulated emotions and percieved manipulative behaviour of the sufferer will of course drive people away, or lead them to make remarks that are woefully inapplicable to this specific condition. Things improve if and when the people in the sufferers life make some accomodations and give safety and help with regulating, or at least no judgement. That creates a positive feedback loop that strengthens people and enables them to heal and have emotional health and undramatic relationships. I wonder if someone is working on how we might be able to help those addicted to complaining, rather than just abandoning them?
I'm not sure how much innovation. DBT still seems to be the go-to, and there are some people for whom it is useless. What has changed to some extent is the attitude that is untreatable/incurable, and an acknowledgement that medications and general therapy and time and maturity can make a difference. I agree with the newer perception of BPD as a neurological injury rather than a defect of personality, and the need for the patient to have a genuine solid ball of emotional safety around them in order to start making progress, whether the people on their life think they 'deserve' such or not. Now, if only we could eliminate toxic parenting and dysfunctional families and stop perpetuating this generation after generation.... There has been some progress, fingers crossed for the future.
Officially still BPD, but it's in flux because its such a shocker of a name and misleading. Newer terms are Complex PTSD or Childhood PTSD but they are unsatisfactory too, as while there are commonalities, it would be more accurate to distinguish it from regular PTSD. So we await a term that conveys the idea of persistent damage to the developing brain which affects it's wiring, plus the aspect of being emotionally raw and in permanent pain. Tricky, and I have no ideas either.
Because that's how it goes for people swimming in pain. Good on you for getting beyond that. You didnt 'give your time to something so stupid', you were stuck as all hell. Glad you have found a new perspective!
Real interesting— consider emotions a physical substance that unless dealt with it weighs on a person, festering.
As a brick wall wont provide a positive input, it is not a suitable means of exorcising this "negative emotion".
Though I imagine that complaining to a brick wall would be helpful as it would provide a means of introspection; but i think people are just too embarrassed to do so (seems a bit like the purpose of journalling?)
As someone who had written around 400 pages to organize my own thoughts, I attest this is true at least for me. It helps to organize myself when emotions are just being chaotic.
This is related to the regulation of the amygdala activity. You may be interested in the study "Putting Feelings Into Words: Affect Labeling as Implicit Emotion Regulation" (Matthew D. Lieberman et al), which basically says an emotion like fear can be attenuated when you describe it, because you are activating areas of your brain related to the rational thought. You can lower your amygdala activity by talking or writing what you are feeling (there are other ways to do it discussed in the article, such as reinterpretation).
Once I was very mad at my husband when he left me waiting for 20 minutes. Later that day I wrote down what I was feeling and I realized I was feeling jealously, because I was feeling like I wasn't important to him and I also had fear, because I felt my value depended on how much he liked me. Even now, when I am writing this I can't help but think "this is so silly, I can't believe I was mad at this". Once I had this figured it out his explanation on how it takes some time to get ready started to make more sense and 20 minutes was actually a reasonable amount of time.
About two thirds of the Psalms in the Bible contain a little or sometimes even a lot of lamentation. Clearly not all lamentation is the same as "complaint" but sometimes it is. Considering that these are expressions of people, but also seen as expressions of YHWH (the God of the Bible), they are very important as a part of Christian Spirituality in the human experience.
This is significant because in the case of someone who defines reality by their words, they have the choice to express anything they want (the writers of the biblical text know the principle of "performative language"), the author still has the choice to lament about a state of affairs, and can request that something be done about it. These are situations where the circumstances appear beyond the speaker's ability to address them and must wait for another moment or season.
I find your being mystified by it refreshing. On the one hand, some neurotypicals (as you call them) sometimes take these for granted, because they figure that people just complain, and some others avoid dealing with them because they are told they ought to think positively and optimistically about everything. However, as you talk elsewhere about copying neurotypical behavior and project it with a mask, in order to follow a social contract, you can appreciate that words of lamentation can have a didactic function - they can teach us about thoughts and feelings of others and ourselves.
I think complaining from a religious perspective is something very different— when a person complains to God they are complaining to the one who can actually do something about the persons problems.
There is much that can be learned here by studying the dynamic of laments - that's my point. And not all complaining to God is good. There are kinds of complaints which he embraces, and others which he rejects.
I wonder if other languages have more well thought out and precise terms? It is always interesting how other languages express and divide up concepts. English has such a huge vocabulary and yet there are words that are expected to cover too much, leading to ambiguity and misunderstanding, when they really should be split into half a dozen concepts at least.
As I read your column and also read these comments, I realize there can be two very distinct motives for complaining. One being an indirect means of asking for advice (how do I fix this?) and the other as a means of asking for sympathy (oh you poor thing). Both are indeed rather unskilled methods of interacting with people.
My SO and I used to have a friend, he was also a roommate for more than a dozen years, who basically complained a lot. He did it in the guise of asking for advice, but since he never took any of the advice and never improved the situation he was complaining about, it did indeed become pretty tiresome. Worse, however, was this became his primary means of interacting with us. (He did run a restaurant, so had plenty of other social interactions with both customers and employees; however, complaining seemed to be his primary means with friends.) We got Really Tired of this because he essentially complained about the same thing all the time, and for this and other reasons (what he eventually was like as a roommate), he's no longer someone we spend any time with.
As I look back on it with this lens, clearly he was trying to have a relationship with us that gave him warm fuzzy feelings (love and acceptance?), but apparently did not have effective tools for gaining love and acceptance, so he opted for this "oh you poor thing" type of sympathy instead? And essentially wound up losing even that. Like you said, it gets really tiresome.
I wish we had a better idea of how to prevent people from turning out that way, so they would have better tools and be less needy, but meanwhile, it's just sad.
I read this carefully and was sort of puzzling until I pondered my own method of expressing displeasure. That being to explicitly state what the problem is and whether or not I could see a remedy.
That's pretty much what you laid out as your way of dealing with issues but I realize that a fair number of people don't want to work with things that way. People frequently have a deep need to "talk it out" and "come to terms" with their problems and they want emotional support while they are doing it. I'm no really good at the whole emotional support thing though
I know just what you mean, and it is something that I do not understand. Here is the problem, here is the solution. Implement solution, get on with my day.
Seems like the most reasonable and straight forward way of dealing with things, but I have found exactly what you have in a lot of people.
I could describe it as .. there is something about having a seemingly empathetic listener, as you describe your negative experiences, that helps you get distance on them.
Or in a woo-woo sense, they hold the energy for you so you can grapple with it.
Oh my, don't we wish it was as simple as 'here's the solution'! The solution might involve taking on huge emotional and psychic pain. Pain, extreme pain, to be feared. It's wonderful to have a psychopath's perspective, but there's always going to be those barriers to understanding.
After giving this some thought about the times i do complain, which aren't really often, I find the reasons for it are mostly to get someone's thoughts about a situation . Which I will it right all for after voicing my complaint.
At times it's just to vent some frustration, which does seem to lesson the frustration a bit.
When something, like constant pain becomes out of control, it can build the emotion of being frustrated and helpless and even can cause depression. Sometimes just talking about it helps to relieve some of this.
Mostly when I do complain, I'm checking to see if I'm being reasonable about my situation or if I'm over reacting to my lack of control over it.
So I'm bouncing what's running though my head off of someone else and maybe they will have an idea I haven't thought of.
Rarely, but sometimes I'm looking for a little compassion.
I think most people complain, some more then others . I know someone who is like you said, complains about everything.
Everything is always bad, the glass is always half empty, but he's also depressed and mostly isolated. I think he just wants someone to care about him but doesn't see that complaining about everything just makes people tune him out or avoid him, which of course only isolates him more.
He won't get help, never takes the advice he's offered, he always has a reason why it won't work for him. He's also someone who's always right and thinks he's smarter then everyone else. In his case I think it's mostly for attention.
Now he does have reasons to complain, pain being one of them, however he finds reason to complain about everything else. His life sucks, the world sucks, and so on. Yet he will never out right ask for help when he needs it. This i just don't get . I can't tell you number of times I've said"if you need help with something, why don't you just ask?" One time he replied " I thought I just did". I honestly didn't get that's what he was doing by his complaint.
So I guess sometimes people complain when they are overwhelmed, sometimes they are looking for answers or help, and yes something complaining is for attention an becomes like a bad habit.
I don't really consider venting the same as complaining, especially it the person says that they are in need of doing so. I get the notion of blowing of steam, and relieving some of their internal tension. I see that as having a point.
I know someone exactly like you describe, and often their problems are those of their own making, which makes it difficult to listen to them gripe about the outcome.
I have had to vent a few times. Some time back I was attempting to help a coworker who had already carefully rehearsed her entire argument complete with all the points that she was going to make to counter what I was going to say...except I didn't say any of those things and she simply went through her entire routine and claimed moral victory.
When she left I did vent to the manager and all he could say was that he was glad that I saved giving my opinion of her until she'd left the building. She got fired though not because of my assessment of her lack of critical thinking
True, someone's people don't have good self insight, they just can't see that it's there own doing. I can't listen for a little while, just to be kind. After a while though I have to make some reason to go. It can be too much.
Venting, yes, they turn up and say, make yourself some strong sweet tea or pour a glass of wine, I gotta vent. And no existential answers or practical help are really required of you, and the content can be interesting anyway, and they are your friend, and it's all OK.
This post has given me so much to dwell on. I have had to think a lot about how to even define complaining in its various forms, before thinking about what psychological or social purposes it serves. And I have questioned whether I am a complainer myself. On the one hand, yes, I sure am, I frequently rail and grumble, but on the other hand, no, I don't worry about small discomforts and inconveniences and can be pretty hardy, and not even notice many annoyances, as my chosen lifestyle required that adaptability.
I think so much depends on your audience, what the people around you find acceptable, and how they interpret your complaints. They may understand that it is not necessarily attention seeking but rather just a sort of commentary. Indeed good natured and detached complaining can be hilarious. Complaints that make no demands on people to solve your problems are not really complaints, as I see it.
So what is complaining? Many things are, technically, but not really by my definition. Small talk about bad weather or the dire state of the world with a stranger at the bus stop, no. Pouring your heart out to a friend for catharsis and shared understanding and possibly new insights and advice, no. Telling people around you that you are currently in pain or miserable, no- the purpose is to inform them of your state so they don't expect too much, it's really a kind of advance warning, though NOT a free pass, I should stress. It's not necessarily a 'poor me' thing. Doing this used to be less acceptable, and to the extent that that has changed, I think it's a good thing.
I was puzzled by what you wrote about complaining to a partner or friend, when it would be best to be frank and direct about your needs and wants. While that is true, I'm not sure I see much difference. To me, even that frank request, rather than ambiguous grumbling, is itself functionally a complaint, and may be held against you. Do that too much in any relationship and it won't go well, I think.
The changed tactic of someone who has failed to get sympathy by complaining and is then over nice to you.....yes I have experienced that. My interpretation, which may be totally wrong, is that they have realised they overstepped, pulled back, feel bad, and are now trying to make it up to you a bit as best they can. That is how I would feel if I were them in that situation, others may differ.
I have a lifelong friend who is superficially a whinger. They will engage in a constant commentary on everything and how bad it is, while maintaining a sort of immunity because it's all just trivial stuff. EVERYTHING is run through that filter. A red light? Yes it would happen, that's just typical, swear swear. A poorly topped pizza? Yeah, what can you expect, that'd be right. A passerby? Yeah, they would get in front of you as you went through the door. An effective laundry soap? Yeah it's probably full of chemicals that cause cancer. Everything in the world is conspiring against them, it's all negative. The degree to which this person does this approaches self parody, but it is so entrenched as a lifelong habit that I don't think it can change. I have mentioned it and they genuinely seemed not to know what I was talking about, but they are not reflective or introspective by habit. It used to be exhausting and a fun killer, but now I just ignore it as one would a tic. It is also explicable as something that developed from a child feeling perpetually unheard, which was a given in the time and place we grew up, where violent authoritarian parenting was acceptable.
Perhaps it is sometimes a mistake to assume that the complainer has some expectation that you will fix things. Or that they are trying to draw attention to themselves. If asked, I'm sure many would honestly and credibly deny these aims. The need for shared understanding seems to me the greater motivation.
A few months back, I was chatting to a homeless man at the bus stop. We spoke of how much we liked this reliable free service, the shelter where he was currently staying, his home state which I know and love, his childhood good and bad aspects, his son who committed suicide 18 months ago who had two small children that would never know how wonderful he was (he took pictures out of his holdall bag to show me), his daughter who he was so proud of as a retail manager and problem solver but who won't talk to him anymore as he drinks (he was sober when I spoke to him), and it did become a tail of woe. But what shook me was the agony in his eyes as he spoke. Real agony combined with furious strength trying to muster himself and carry on. And I was in a bad mental place at the time but thought, this man has it so much worse. He never asked me for anything, was never in any way unpleasant, and when he later got off the bus and we wished each other well, I started bawling right then and there, and was shook up for the next few days, thinking about the amount of pain in this world. I in no way felt imposed upon by his 'complaining' and can only hope that it helped him to talk.
As for those who really do make far too much of a fuss and turn everything into theatre? Well, I am lucky not to have such people in my life. They exist, but I don't think they are representative of neurotypical complaining and its purposes as a whole. Anyway, I have always been suspicious of seeing silent stoicism as somehow virtuous, I see no need and many downsides.
Also, I have often seen reluctance to complain being taken advantage of, an atmosphere of 'being a good sport', to ward off justified criticism of safety or service. Particularly used against people who are from a culture that is reluctant to complain, or just very young and naive. This cynical exploitation infuriates me. So I complain about it!
"Please take the trash out. It would be very helpful to me, and I will appreciate it."
and
"I do all the work around here, and no one helps me. I have so much to do. it's not fair. Ugh, the dishes have to be done again, and I have to vacuum."
is vast.
The first one is productive. The second is manipulative whining. If someone approaches me with the first, I will do what they asked. It is a reasonable requests, so long as they haven't been loafing about on the couch all day while I have been working.
The second one is guilt manipulation which is annoying, and makes me disinclined to do anything to help that individual. Ask me, and you have my attention. Try to guilt me, and you have none.
You chat with the homeless man is quite nice, but he obviously can be sober, and chooses not to be. I don't have a great deal of cognitive empathy for people when they make bad choices, see how those choices are life destroying not only for themselves, but those around them, but instead of changing the choices that they make, they continue down the same path.
If that's what they want, that's fine. It's their life, and I am not going to tell them to do anything differently. However, it is their choices that have brought them to that point.
I don't consider silent stoicism virtuous. I consider it mature, and far more productive. Complaining about what cannot be changed has no positive results in my observation. I consider people that keep their complaints to themselves as realists that are not attention seeking. I see complainers as people that are seeking attention when it is otherwise not being granted to them. It seems that they feel entitled to that attention, and will create problems to get it.
Peterson's statements did give me pause. I think that needing to formulate relation to the world through conversation and lacking that conversation having terrible effects on people that require it, a valid perspective. However I am not so certain that grants that person the right to make everyone else listen to their gripping. It's not my problem.
Misery loves company, and chronic complainers constantly seem to need to make it clear how much harder their lives are than anyone else around them, whether or not that is reflective of reality. I see no value in that, and have more respect for people that handle their issues without creating drama.
Your distinction makes sense, but I'm not convinced it makes a functional difference for everyone. Directness can seem like a demand and be badly received, which is why people have come up with oblique ways of expressing things, which I myself would not always perceive as whiny or manipulative. To me these phrases are like a familiar idiom, which can be acceptable sometimes. Yes, this area of communication is a mess, and we need to find better ways, but for me it's more about the health and fairness of the relationship between people than specifically how they express dissatisfaction. Indirect complaining rubs you up the wrong way immediately, but in moderation does not do so to me. I try to be simple and direct myself, I see the sense, but there are situations when this backfires, and I accept participating in the messy NT ways that have developed and which I absorbed like everyone else.
I have a lot of cognitive empathy for the homeless man, my reaction was emotional but also had a considered aspect. That he is able to be sober sometimes does not mean he is able to always, that's not how addiction works. He's hanging in there till the pain overwhelms and he reaches for relief. I saw his situation as one of desperation rather than bad choices. He had had many bad things happen and it was too much for him. He struggled to rationalise how he was treated as a child and look for the good regardless.
Opinion differs so much about to what extent people are responsible for their choices and how much power they have to change their situation. While I think that ultimately we do have to hold people responsible in say, crime situations, that does not fully apply on to lighter everyday matters and that is not how I view peoples conduct. That old experession, "Well you made your bed, now you can lie in it" has always seemed to me to be too easily over applied, and often to be unjust and over simplistic, misguided and even cruel, not acknowledging the vast differences between people and the complexities of life. The man's son's suicide, for matters unrelated to him, tipped him over. That amount of pain can destroy a system, and some people survive it, others not.
I also think that our assessment of the extent to which people are in control of their lives and capable of changing their circumstances has a strong cultural and idealogical bias, and it is only moderately present in my culture and not something I personally believe in. It's best if people really do try their hardest. After that, it's not for me to judge. I suppose there have been many instances in the past where I judged people for not being able to 'just' do X or Y, because to me it was a no brainer and more importantly, came easily and naturally to me, only to be told, in essence, "Don't you realise that for other people this is a situation that will tie them in knots and involve emotions and memories that are luckily not part of it for you?". Oops. And then I thought of situations where I struggled with things others found straightforward. Oops again.
I think you might be overstating the attention seeking aspects of complaints. It applies sometimes, but thinking about various recent conversations with friends and family, there was much complaining, but none of us were doing it for attention, that's just not the dynamic. As long as the amount and type of complaining is equal and accepted within the group, things work fine. The stoics can enjoy the company of other stoics. I am wondering though how listening in to all this would have appeared to you- unneccesary, unproductive, annoying? But it wasnt to us, and it's not about misery loving company, we were not perpetually miserable, it was the holidays!
Personally, while I hate actual drama, I would not want that stoic world. I WANT to know how people feel about things, in detail, I don't want them to just say things are fine. I have learned so much from this about how people are, and their differences, and this has been invaluable. I felt enlightened and connected rather than burdened. And as a NT this is definitely part of relationships and feeling a shared understanding and bond with people close to me. I would not want to lose that. As you say, for some people such conversations are an essential part of relating to others and the world. People differ so much in how annoyed they're by griping about things that are not their problem, and I assure you that not everyone perceives it as a bad thing or unpleasant, within reason!
I have strong memories from childhood of carrying some secret upset that seemed serious only because I was a child, and finally bursting out with it to a trusted adult, and the relief, oh my, it was just huge, the 'weight of your shoulders' metaphor is no exaggeration. As an adult, the feeling is much weaker, BUT I still find that when I make an effort to keep troubling things to myself the burden eventually becomes intolerable and requires an outlet if I am not to implode. Mental functioning actually breaks down, it's not a matter of just putting up with it.
More generally, I have over the years been delighted that 'stiff upper lip' uncommunicative culture has swung the other way so that now it has become acceptable to talk about so many things that once it was not, and this necessarily involves complaining. I see a huge benefits in this, even if it means a small number of genuine poor-me whingers come along for the ride. Meanwhile, a light has been shone, and people have greater opportunities for relief.
I guess I admire some stoicism in conduct, but what people communicate while they handle their difficulties does no in any way undermine my assessment of their strength. I see no particular value in keeping problems entirely to oneself and had never considered that it had any connection to being a realist or mature, or in any way more productive. I will have to think about this.
I also do not see complaining as meaning someone thinks their life is much worse than anyone else's. For some, yes, for most, no, it's just about burdens we all share, no implication that ones own suffering is greater. If people tell me about some difficult situation, and I have had similar, I will tell them so. It would be wrong to think this is turning the conversation around onto me for 'attention', that's not it at all, the purpose is to show someone who feels alone, as we all do when suffering, that I really do understand from experience and am not just saying empty words. Sometimes, this will lead to a more detailed and mutually helpful discussion. Hopefully the person will get some relief through knowing others have endured the same. And here it is not about them feeling 'glee' that someone else has suffered the same as them, just understanding. If that means misery loves company, then so be it.
In those situations where someone's life really is dramatically harder than average, I consider this worth knowing and acknowledging, as it's all too easy for more fortunate people to diminish others problems, resulting in a skewed outlook on the world. It bothers me when people who constitutionally have no problem with something do not understand that it really is very different for others.
I will have to talk to people about all this. I don't want to be an unknowing burden or nuisance to people in my life and hope that I have not been.
Emotional expression is not the same as complaining to me. Someone stating that they didn't like X,Y, or Z is different than them telling me that seeking to illicit a response of sympathy from me. There are plenty of negative things in the world, and people discuss them frequently without complaining about them. I see complaining as a very different behavior.
I have very little insight the experience of complaining. What the person is feeling inside, I can only draw conclusions based on what I observe, but also what people tell me when it comes to their motivations for complaining. Also their behavior after doing so. If they constantly run into the same problems, and the problems are those of their own making which they frequently are, there is no room to be concerned with their displeasure regarding the outcome. If there is no willingness to address the cause, but upset about the outcome, I do not see the habit of complaining to be anything other than emotional manipulation.
Ah, then I see we really are bumping up against problems with definitions. As I am pretty accepting of complaining, I might not immediately draw the distinctions between what is acceptable and what is not, emotional expression vs legit seeking sympathy vs manipulative and needy seeking sympathy. I might not notice at all! I had not thought of this 'very different behaviour' thing. I don't tend to assume people just want sympathy, and anyway, I am happy to offer it. It would take a fair bit for me to find them tiresome, and I haven't known many people who overdo it. Which is why it was very interesting to read the 'confessions' from people here. I saw a bit of that in the me of the past. Cringe....
It's funny, as exasperating as it can be when people seem not to follow good advice to solve their problems rationally, I just sigh and accept it as an unfortunate but inevitable part of the human condition. Maybe there"s more to their situation and it's not that simple, maybe they have mental traps they are unaware of, they are not me and are looking out of different eyeballs, I have no doubt been just as ridiculous at times. In this situation there would be a limit to how much I would be prepared to listen to them I suppose. But in this context, any idea of 'emotional manipulation' would something I consider trivial. Its too serious a description for many ordinary instances of this behaviour. Emotional manipulation can be a very bad thing, unless they are REALLY overdoing it with their demands, well, to me it's just words, and human frailty.
Do you often find people have a habit of trying to take advantage of you?
I ask, because I have observed that when people are unaware of emotional manipulation for sympathy or gain, that those attempting to do so will move in on those types in order to get what they can out of them. I have had several conversations with friends that are unable to see what I see, and will refuse to listen to me when I point out that the person that they are trying to help is outright toxic.
I see it straight away, and am immediately annoyed by their behavior which of course to my friend appears to be cruel and totally unempathetic. That is until the person does exactly what I warn them about, and they come back and tell me I was right about them. They ask me how I knew, I tell them, they say that they will pay attention in the future, but they don't.
This whole process repeats itself quite often, and that is with people that I am able to point out to them what is happening. I wonder if you have had this experience because you aren't familiar with what these types sound like in the beginning, so you don't shut them out immediately.
Actually no, not much as an adult, which may be just my good luck. I don't think I'd be blind to something so overt, just that I am less reactive than you are to the lower levels of the behaviour, in moderation it doesn't push my buttons. It's useful that you can spot serious manipulators immediately. Do you sometimes get it wrong though and overreact to someone who really is just a bit of a whinger but has no bigger plans to take advantage? I guess the test for me would be if someone did try to take serious advantage. Would I spot it and pull back in time? I think so, unless I was too invested in them emotionally, then all bets would be off, I become useless.
PS I am not suggesting I am some super easy going tolerant person across the board. Attempts to make me participate in something, the social pressure to be a good sport, will get people absolutely nowhere with me, hackles up and no compromise. Talking arrogantly on a topic you clearly kmow nothing about, well, instant no respect. We all have our things!
I watched one group (probably mostly NTs) that had a social norm of complaining, almost. It seemed a group bonding ritual. I think it helped maintain an "us" against "them" for this group. There were some costs though; the complaining and structuring of the "us" kept the group members from changing their perspectives on some situations. It might have kept group members feeling like the "them" people had more power over everything than was true...
Being part of a group is a huge thing for social primates often! I guess I can feel some of the comfort of it but I don't like it when people seem unaware of these influences.... of course who knows if there is any truth to what I thought was going on...
I complain to close people, though I do so rarely and only when I see that doing so will help me or as a part of the story. Like complaining to someone about something health related and checking if what I experience is normal or not, when I am not able to evaluate it myself. I don’t expect pity. Another example would be telling about an unfortunate event in a conversation. I tell about events that I consider interesting and or funny. As it happens most of such events are bad ones, so I tell about them. I don’t expect pity or help without directly asking for help either. The reaction of people offering it has always been confusing to me.
I don't know that I would term either of those events complaining. One is looking for feedback for medical reasons, and the other is relaying information.
Complaining would be having a health situation that you bring up every chance you get to remind people that you have it for the purpose of getting their attention.
I am not sure complaining is limited to that, in my native language too it has a more simple meaning.
That describes it accurately, but I am not sure if the first one still isn’t complaining. The second now as I am thinking, I agree with you, is rather just telling about something.
This I never do and I have a different intent when I complain in my definition of complaining.
I used to be one of these people who complain about everything. I was a professional complainer. I think depression drove that too, that was my favorite complaint actually, my own treatable illness tsk tsk. And god, how annoying I was! I'd wake up every day and my brain would automatically look for something to complain about and that would be my topic for the day. I remember when I was ill, even during periods when the symptoms weren't so bad, I felt this need for attention. Deep down I liked to be like that. I refused treatment for many years, partly because of the depression that makes you feel like you don't deserve to be cured and that there's no hope for you and partly because I was afraid of losing people's attention.
But I didn't want collective attention, like, going into a class room and having everyone there super worried about me, asking what happened (okay, maybe sometimes), because I like being a more anonymous person. But I pissed off people in my circle. Sometimes I even noticed that they were extremely uncomfortable, especially when they were having a really happy time and I'd come to suck all the positivity out of the place, but I kept going. And I remember getting angry when people started not caring anymore, so I started talking about bigger problems, complaining even more, being dramatic and lying. Like, if you don't want to give me free and spontaneous attention, I'll make you give it to me through pain. I'll trigger your empathy so that you only think of me. I wasn't content with my suffering, I wanted other people to suffer with me and for me.
At some point I noticed that people would do almost anything I wanted, because they felt sorry for me. Most of the time I remember doing all this consciously, I got addicted to it, playing the victim and spreading the word about how the world was cruel with me, was conspiring against me, yada yada.
My closest friends even tried to help me, of course, but they have their own lives and duties and most of the time they avoided me because they knew that if they came to talk to me I'd have a long and tedious list of complaints and that they would "have" to listen to me for hours and maybe do things for me. I don't blame them for that.
At some point people got tired of me and I felt like I didn't have any options either. I still tried to keep the drama for a while, but after a big argument with a family member, in which I was extremely aggressive, I realized how far this was going.
Well... That's what I remember feeling back then when I was a professional complainer. I just look at it all now and see how much of my precious time I've given to something so stupid. Today I'm much better and depression is no longer an issue, but sometimes I still feel the urge to start complaining about something and play the victim, just to get a little attention. But I'm trying to suppress the urge as much as I can and become a decent human being, and I'm actually doing a great job so far. I now realize that complaints aren't going to get me anywhere and that they're just a waste of my time and creativity. It's not worth so much effort just to have the false feeling that people care about me.
Random people often come to me too, to complain about their lives, tell all their dramas... And god, how annoying that is. Today I realize how much I bothered people and how f*cking annoying I was.
Thank you for your personal insight. That was very informative and interesting to read for me. It gave me a great deal to consider.
I hope your considerations appear in some form in the future, it's interesting to me what you make of such convoluted, unhelpful and yet entirely neurotypical behaviour.
I don't think I could address it better than she did frankly. While I understand that there is some complaining that has it's place in the world, when it becomes an addiction it is just as bad as any other addiction. The result is being alone because it drives people away. It also robs a person of their joy.
The brain filters out a tremendous amount of information on a constant basis. There is a video that demonstrates this where people are talking, and a man in a gorilla suit shows up. Most people, for whatever reason, don't even notice him. Their brains filter him out completely, and until they watch the video again, many don't even believe when they are told there was a guy in a gorilla suit.
What the brain focuses on formulates your world, and your perception. When you train your brain to focus on the negative, it will seek out the negative, thus creating a bleaker and bleaker perception. People that complain all the time are shifting their worldview to a negative one, and that is all they will see. You are feeding a computer a code that it will then implement and run on. Without changing the code, changing the focus, changing the behavior, the perception will remain a bleak one.
It is indeed a very good description of and relection on the phenomenon.
I know the gorilla suit example, it's pretty amazing! I can understand the bad effect of focussing on the negative and thus missing the positive, it's a good general rule not to do that, but depending on the person and their mental condition, there may actually be no possibility of enjoying any positives. Anhedonia cannot be willed away, other things have to be addressed first to fix it indirectly.
Also, the unfortunate consequence of just driving people away has a parallel in what used to be called BPD. The unregulated emotions and percieved manipulative behaviour of the sufferer will of course drive people away, or lead them to make remarks that are woefully inapplicable to this specific condition. Things improve if and when the people in the sufferers life make some accomodations and give safety and help with regulating, or at least no judgement. That creates a positive feedback loop that strengthens people and enables them to heal and have emotional health and undramatic relationships. I wonder if someone is working on how we might be able to help those addicted to complaining, rather than just abandoning them?
Have there been any innovations in therapies for BPD in recent years?
I'm not sure how much innovation. DBT still seems to be the go-to, and there are some people for whom it is useless. What has changed to some extent is the attitude that is untreatable/incurable, and an acknowledgement that medications and general therapy and time and maturity can make a difference. I agree with the newer perception of BPD as a neurological injury rather than a defect of personality, and the need for the patient to have a genuine solid ball of emotional safety around them in order to start making progress, whether the people on their life think they 'deserve' such or not. Now, if only we could eliminate toxic parenting and dysfunctional families and stop perpetuating this generation after generation.... There has been some progress, fingers crossed for the future.
What is BPD called now?
Officially still BPD, but it's in flux because its such a shocker of a name and misleading. Newer terms are Complex PTSD or Childhood PTSD but they are unsatisfactory too, as while there are commonalities, it would be more accurate to distinguish it from regular PTSD. So we await a term that conveys the idea of persistent damage to the developing brain which affects it's wiring, plus the aspect of being emotionally raw and in permanent pain. Tricky, and I have no ideas either.
Well done for overcoming that hurdle. Imagine it wasn't an easy or fast process!
Because that's how it goes for people swimming in pain. Good on you for getting beyond that. You didnt 'give your time to something so stupid', you were stuck as all hell. Glad you have found a new perspective!
Real interesting— consider emotions a physical substance that unless dealt with it weighs on a person, festering.
As a brick wall wont provide a positive input, it is not a suitable means of exorcising this "negative emotion".
Though I imagine that complaining to a brick wall would be helpful as it would provide a means of introspection; but i think people are just too embarrassed to do so (seems a bit like the purpose of journalling?)
Writing it down is a good alternative to the brick wall.
As someone who had written around 400 pages to organize my own thoughts, I attest this is true at least for me. It helps to organize myself when emotions are just being chaotic.
How does writing the pages help with though organization?
This is related to the regulation of the amygdala activity. You may be interested in the study "Putting Feelings Into Words: Affect Labeling as Implicit Emotion Regulation" (Matthew D. Lieberman et al), which basically says an emotion like fear can be attenuated when you describe it, because you are activating areas of your brain related to the rational thought. You can lower your amygdala activity by talking or writing what you are feeling (there are other ways to do it discussed in the article, such as reinterpretation).
Once I was very mad at my husband when he left me waiting for 20 minutes. Later that day I wrote down what I was feeling and I realized I was feeling jealously, because I was feeling like I wasn't important to him and I also had fear, because I felt my value depended on how much he liked me. Even now, when I am writing this I can't help but think "this is so silly, I can't believe I was mad at this". Once I had this figured it out his explanation on how it takes some time to get ready started to make more sense and 20 minutes was actually a reasonable amount of time.
That's interesting. I can see how that would be very helpful indeed.
LOL complaining to a brick wall, that is AWESOME!
Hm, I could see that
About two thirds of the Psalms in the Bible contain a little or sometimes even a lot of lamentation. Clearly not all lamentation is the same as "complaint" but sometimes it is. Considering that these are expressions of people, but also seen as expressions of YHWH (the God of the Bible), they are very important as a part of Christian Spirituality in the human experience.
This is significant because in the case of someone who defines reality by their words, they have the choice to express anything they want (the writers of the biblical text know the principle of "performative language"), the author still has the choice to lament about a state of affairs, and can request that something be done about it. These are situations where the circumstances appear beyond the speaker's ability to address them and must wait for another moment or season.
I find your being mystified by it refreshing. On the one hand, some neurotypicals (as you call them) sometimes take these for granted, because they figure that people just complain, and some others avoid dealing with them because they are told they ought to think positively and optimistically about everything. However, as you talk elsewhere about copying neurotypical behavior and project it with a mask, in order to follow a social contract, you can appreciate that words of lamentation can have a didactic function - they can teach us about thoughts and feelings of others and ourselves.
I think complaining from a religious perspective is something very different— when a person complains to God they are complaining to the one who can actually do something about the persons problems.
True, that!
There is much that can be learned here by studying the dynamic of laments - that's my point. And not all complaining to God is good. There are kinds of complaints which he embraces, and others which he rejects.
This is interesting, lamentations, yes. I think we need a more precise vocabulary when discussing complaining, too much comes under that one term.
A good point
I wonder if other languages have more well thought out and precise terms? It is always interesting how other languages express and divide up concepts. English has such a huge vocabulary and yet there are words that are expected to cover too much, leading to ambiguity and misunderstanding, when they really should be split into half a dozen concepts at least.
A very good question. I don't know.
As I read your column and also read these comments, I realize there can be two very distinct motives for complaining. One being an indirect means of asking for advice (how do I fix this?) and the other as a means of asking for sympathy (oh you poor thing). Both are indeed rather unskilled methods of interacting with people.
My SO and I used to have a friend, he was also a roommate for more than a dozen years, who basically complained a lot. He did it in the guise of asking for advice, but since he never took any of the advice and never improved the situation he was complaining about, it did indeed become pretty tiresome. Worse, however, was this became his primary means of interacting with us. (He did run a restaurant, so had plenty of other social interactions with both customers and employees; however, complaining seemed to be his primary means with friends.) We got Really Tired of this because he essentially complained about the same thing all the time, and for this and other reasons (what he eventually was like as a roommate), he's no longer someone we spend any time with.
As I look back on it with this lens, clearly he was trying to have a relationship with us that gave him warm fuzzy feelings (love and acceptance?), but apparently did not have effective tools for gaining love and acceptance, so he opted for this "oh you poor thing" type of sympathy instead? And essentially wound up losing even that. Like you said, it gets really tiresome.
I know precisely the type of person you are referring to. Yes, they are exhausting.
I wish we had a better idea of how to prevent people from turning out that way, so they would have better tools and be less needy, but meanwhile, it's just sad.
Yes, I agree.
I read this carefully and was sort of puzzling until I pondered my own method of expressing displeasure. That being to explicitly state what the problem is and whether or not I could see a remedy.
That's pretty much what you laid out as your way of dealing with issues but I realize that a fair number of people don't want to work with things that way. People frequently have a deep need to "talk it out" and "come to terms" with their problems and they want emotional support while they are doing it. I'm no really good at the whole emotional support thing though
I know just what you mean, and it is something that I do not understand. Here is the problem, here is the solution. Implement solution, get on with my day.
Seems like the most reasonable and straight forward way of dealing with things, but I have found exactly what you have in a lot of people.
It’s an odd, yet common dissociative state.
I could describe it as .. there is something about having a seemingly empathetic listener, as you describe your negative experiences, that helps you get distance on them.
Or in a woo-woo sense, they hold the energy for you so you can grapple with it.
Let’s face this dark stormy sea together
What do you mean by it being a dissociative state? That people get carried away?
I wonder if he meant, a state that is lacking self awareness.
That makes sense. You lose control and objectivity temporarily and afterwards think, what was I doing?!
That is an interesting perspective to consider.
Oh my, don't we wish it was as simple as 'here's the solution'! The solution might involve taking on huge emotional and psychic pain. Pain, extreme pain, to be feared. It's wonderful to have a psychopath's perspective, but there's always going to be those barriers to understanding.
Yeah, its unfortunately not always that simple!
Yes they really do need to talk it out, and I can see the problem if that's is not your nature. Hopefully in time we find people who operate as we do.
After giving this some thought about the times i do complain, which aren't really often, I find the reasons for it are mostly to get someone's thoughts about a situation . Which I will it right all for after voicing my complaint.
At times it's just to vent some frustration, which does seem to lesson the frustration a bit.
When something, like constant pain becomes out of control, it can build the emotion of being frustrated and helpless and even can cause depression. Sometimes just talking about it helps to relieve some of this.
Mostly when I do complain, I'm checking to see if I'm being reasonable about my situation or if I'm over reacting to my lack of control over it.
So I'm bouncing what's running though my head off of someone else and maybe they will have an idea I haven't thought of.
Rarely, but sometimes I'm looking for a little compassion.
I think most people complain, some more then others . I know someone who is like you said, complains about everything.
Everything is always bad, the glass is always half empty, but he's also depressed and mostly isolated. I think he just wants someone to care about him but doesn't see that complaining about everything just makes people tune him out or avoid him, which of course only isolates him more.
He won't get help, never takes the advice he's offered, he always has a reason why it won't work for him. He's also someone who's always right and thinks he's smarter then everyone else. In his case I think it's mostly for attention.
Now he does have reasons to complain, pain being one of them, however he finds reason to complain about everything else. His life sucks, the world sucks, and so on. Yet he will never out right ask for help when he needs it. This i just don't get . I can't tell you number of times I've said"if you need help with something, why don't you just ask?" One time he replied " I thought I just did". I honestly didn't get that's what he was doing by his complaint.
So I guess sometimes people complain when they are overwhelmed, sometimes they are looking for answers or help, and yes something complaining is for attention an becomes like a bad habit.
So that's my 2 cents.
I don't really consider venting the same as complaining, especially it the person says that they are in need of doing so. I get the notion of blowing of steam, and relieving some of their internal tension. I see that as having a point.
I know someone exactly like you describe, and often their problems are those of their own making, which makes it difficult to listen to them gripe about the outcome.
I have had to vent a few times. Some time back I was attempting to help a coworker who had already carefully rehearsed her entire argument complete with all the points that she was going to make to counter what I was going to say...except I didn't say any of those things and she simply went through her entire routine and claimed moral victory.
When she left I did vent to the manager and all he could say was that he was glad that I saved giving my opinion of her until she'd left the building. She got fired though not because of my assessment of her lack of critical thinking
Venting I get, and have no issue with. So long as it is venting, and not making someone a punching bag for the outburst of frustration, no problem.
Your coworker on the other hand, that behavior vexes me. What is the point of that?
True, someone's people don't have good self insight, they just can't see that it's there own doing. I can't listen for a little while, just to be kind. After a while though I have to make some reason to go. It can be too much.
Venting, yes, they turn up and say, make yourself some strong sweet tea or pour a glass of wine, I gotta vent. And no existential answers or practical help are really required of you, and the content can be interesting anyway, and they are your friend, and it's all OK.
This post has given me so much to dwell on. I have had to think a lot about how to even define complaining in its various forms, before thinking about what psychological or social purposes it serves. And I have questioned whether I am a complainer myself. On the one hand, yes, I sure am, I frequently rail and grumble, but on the other hand, no, I don't worry about small discomforts and inconveniences and can be pretty hardy, and not even notice many annoyances, as my chosen lifestyle required that adaptability.
I think so much depends on your audience, what the people around you find acceptable, and how they interpret your complaints. They may understand that it is not necessarily attention seeking but rather just a sort of commentary. Indeed good natured and detached complaining can be hilarious. Complaints that make no demands on people to solve your problems are not really complaints, as I see it.
So what is complaining? Many things are, technically, but not really by my definition. Small talk about bad weather or the dire state of the world with a stranger at the bus stop, no. Pouring your heart out to a friend for catharsis and shared understanding and possibly new insights and advice, no. Telling people around you that you are currently in pain or miserable, no- the purpose is to inform them of your state so they don't expect too much, it's really a kind of advance warning, though NOT a free pass, I should stress. It's not necessarily a 'poor me' thing. Doing this used to be less acceptable, and to the extent that that has changed, I think it's a good thing.
I was puzzled by what you wrote about complaining to a partner or friend, when it would be best to be frank and direct about your needs and wants. While that is true, I'm not sure I see much difference. To me, even that frank request, rather than ambiguous grumbling, is itself functionally a complaint, and may be held against you. Do that too much in any relationship and it won't go well, I think.
The changed tactic of someone who has failed to get sympathy by complaining and is then over nice to you.....yes I have experienced that. My interpretation, which may be totally wrong, is that they have realised they overstepped, pulled back, feel bad, and are now trying to make it up to you a bit as best they can. That is how I would feel if I were them in that situation, others may differ.
I have a lifelong friend who is superficially a whinger. They will engage in a constant commentary on everything and how bad it is, while maintaining a sort of immunity because it's all just trivial stuff. EVERYTHING is run through that filter. A red light? Yes it would happen, that's just typical, swear swear. A poorly topped pizza? Yeah, what can you expect, that'd be right. A passerby? Yeah, they would get in front of you as you went through the door. An effective laundry soap? Yeah it's probably full of chemicals that cause cancer. Everything in the world is conspiring against them, it's all negative. The degree to which this person does this approaches self parody, but it is so entrenched as a lifelong habit that I don't think it can change. I have mentioned it and they genuinely seemed not to know what I was talking about, but they are not reflective or introspective by habit. It used to be exhausting and a fun killer, but now I just ignore it as one would a tic. It is also explicable as something that developed from a child feeling perpetually unheard, which was a given in the time and place we grew up, where violent authoritarian parenting was acceptable.
Perhaps it is sometimes a mistake to assume that the complainer has some expectation that you will fix things. Or that they are trying to draw attention to themselves. If asked, I'm sure many would honestly and credibly deny these aims. The need for shared understanding seems to me the greater motivation.
A few months back, I was chatting to a homeless man at the bus stop. We spoke of how much we liked this reliable free service, the shelter where he was currently staying, his home state which I know and love, his childhood good and bad aspects, his son who committed suicide 18 months ago who had two small children that would never know how wonderful he was (he took pictures out of his holdall bag to show me), his daughter who he was so proud of as a retail manager and problem solver but who won't talk to him anymore as he drinks (he was sober when I spoke to him), and it did become a tail of woe. But what shook me was the agony in his eyes as he spoke. Real agony combined with furious strength trying to muster himself and carry on. And I was in a bad mental place at the time but thought, this man has it so much worse. He never asked me for anything, was never in any way unpleasant, and when he later got off the bus and we wished each other well, I started bawling right then and there, and was shook up for the next few days, thinking about the amount of pain in this world. I in no way felt imposed upon by his 'complaining' and can only hope that it helped him to talk.
As for those who really do make far too much of a fuss and turn everything into theatre? Well, I am lucky not to have such people in my life. They exist, but I don't think they are representative of neurotypical complaining and its purposes as a whole. Anyway, I have always been suspicious of seeing silent stoicism as somehow virtuous, I see no need and many downsides.
Also, I have often seen reluctance to complain being taken advantage of, an atmosphere of 'being a good sport', to ward off justified criticism of safety or service. Particularly used against people who are from a culture that is reluctant to complain, or just very young and naive. This cynical exploitation infuriates me. So I complain about it!
The difference between:
"Please take the trash out. It would be very helpful to me, and I will appreciate it."
and
"I do all the work around here, and no one helps me. I have so much to do. it's not fair. Ugh, the dishes have to be done again, and I have to vacuum."
is vast.
The first one is productive. The second is manipulative whining. If someone approaches me with the first, I will do what they asked. It is a reasonable requests, so long as they haven't been loafing about on the couch all day while I have been working.
The second one is guilt manipulation which is annoying, and makes me disinclined to do anything to help that individual. Ask me, and you have my attention. Try to guilt me, and you have none.
You chat with the homeless man is quite nice, but he obviously can be sober, and chooses not to be. I don't have a great deal of cognitive empathy for people when they make bad choices, see how those choices are life destroying not only for themselves, but those around them, but instead of changing the choices that they make, they continue down the same path.
If that's what they want, that's fine. It's their life, and I am not going to tell them to do anything differently. However, it is their choices that have brought them to that point.
I don't consider silent stoicism virtuous. I consider it mature, and far more productive. Complaining about what cannot be changed has no positive results in my observation. I consider people that keep their complaints to themselves as realists that are not attention seeking. I see complainers as people that are seeking attention when it is otherwise not being granted to them. It seems that they feel entitled to that attention, and will create problems to get it.
Peterson's statements did give me pause. I think that needing to formulate relation to the world through conversation and lacking that conversation having terrible effects on people that require it, a valid perspective. However I am not so certain that grants that person the right to make everyone else listen to their gripping. It's not my problem.
Misery loves company, and chronic complainers constantly seem to need to make it clear how much harder their lives are than anyone else around them, whether or not that is reflective of reality. I see no value in that, and have more respect for people that handle their issues without creating drama.
Thanks for the detailed reply.
Your distinction makes sense, but I'm not convinced it makes a functional difference for everyone. Directness can seem like a demand and be badly received, which is why people have come up with oblique ways of expressing things, which I myself would not always perceive as whiny or manipulative. To me these phrases are like a familiar idiom, which can be acceptable sometimes. Yes, this area of communication is a mess, and we need to find better ways, but for me it's more about the health and fairness of the relationship between people than specifically how they express dissatisfaction. Indirect complaining rubs you up the wrong way immediately, but in moderation does not do so to me. I try to be simple and direct myself, I see the sense, but there are situations when this backfires, and I accept participating in the messy NT ways that have developed and which I absorbed like everyone else.
I have a lot of cognitive empathy for the homeless man, my reaction was emotional but also had a considered aspect. That he is able to be sober sometimes does not mean he is able to always, that's not how addiction works. He's hanging in there till the pain overwhelms and he reaches for relief. I saw his situation as one of desperation rather than bad choices. He had had many bad things happen and it was too much for him. He struggled to rationalise how he was treated as a child and look for the good regardless.
Opinion differs so much about to what extent people are responsible for their choices and how much power they have to change their situation. While I think that ultimately we do have to hold people responsible in say, crime situations, that does not fully apply on to lighter everyday matters and that is not how I view peoples conduct. That old experession, "Well you made your bed, now you can lie in it" has always seemed to me to be too easily over applied, and often to be unjust and over simplistic, misguided and even cruel, not acknowledging the vast differences between people and the complexities of life. The man's son's suicide, for matters unrelated to him, tipped him over. That amount of pain can destroy a system, and some people survive it, others not.
I also think that our assessment of the extent to which people are in control of their lives and capable of changing their circumstances has a strong cultural and idealogical bias, and it is only moderately present in my culture and not something I personally believe in. It's best if people really do try their hardest. After that, it's not for me to judge. I suppose there have been many instances in the past where I judged people for not being able to 'just' do X or Y, because to me it was a no brainer and more importantly, came easily and naturally to me, only to be told, in essence, "Don't you realise that for other people this is a situation that will tie them in knots and involve emotions and memories that are luckily not part of it for you?". Oops. And then I thought of situations where I struggled with things others found straightforward. Oops again.
I think you might be overstating the attention seeking aspects of complaints. It applies sometimes, but thinking about various recent conversations with friends and family, there was much complaining, but none of us were doing it for attention, that's just not the dynamic. As long as the amount and type of complaining is equal and accepted within the group, things work fine. The stoics can enjoy the company of other stoics. I am wondering though how listening in to all this would have appeared to you- unneccesary, unproductive, annoying? But it wasnt to us, and it's not about misery loving company, we were not perpetually miserable, it was the holidays!
Personally, while I hate actual drama, I would not want that stoic world. I WANT to know how people feel about things, in detail, I don't want them to just say things are fine. I have learned so much from this about how people are, and their differences, and this has been invaluable. I felt enlightened and connected rather than burdened. And as a NT this is definitely part of relationships and feeling a shared understanding and bond with people close to me. I would not want to lose that. As you say, for some people such conversations are an essential part of relating to others and the world. People differ so much in how annoyed they're by griping about things that are not their problem, and I assure you that not everyone perceives it as a bad thing or unpleasant, within reason!
I have strong memories from childhood of carrying some secret upset that seemed serious only because I was a child, and finally bursting out with it to a trusted adult, and the relief, oh my, it was just huge, the 'weight of your shoulders' metaphor is no exaggeration. As an adult, the feeling is much weaker, BUT I still find that when I make an effort to keep troubling things to myself the burden eventually becomes intolerable and requires an outlet if I am not to implode. Mental functioning actually breaks down, it's not a matter of just putting up with it.
More generally, I have over the years been delighted that 'stiff upper lip' uncommunicative culture has swung the other way so that now it has become acceptable to talk about so many things that once it was not, and this necessarily involves complaining. I see a huge benefits in this, even if it means a small number of genuine poor-me whingers come along for the ride. Meanwhile, a light has been shone, and people have greater opportunities for relief.
I guess I admire some stoicism in conduct, but what people communicate while they handle their difficulties does no in any way undermine my assessment of their strength. I see no particular value in keeping problems entirely to oneself and had never considered that it had any connection to being a realist or mature, or in any way more productive. I will have to think about this.
I also do not see complaining as meaning someone thinks their life is much worse than anyone else's. For some, yes, for most, no, it's just about burdens we all share, no implication that ones own suffering is greater. If people tell me about some difficult situation, and I have had similar, I will tell them so. It would be wrong to think this is turning the conversation around onto me for 'attention', that's not it at all, the purpose is to show someone who feels alone, as we all do when suffering, that I really do understand from experience and am not just saying empty words. Sometimes, this will lead to a more detailed and mutually helpful discussion. Hopefully the person will get some relief through knowing others have endured the same. And here it is not about them feeling 'glee' that someone else has suffered the same as them, just understanding. If that means misery loves company, then so be it.
In those situations where someone's life really is dramatically harder than average, I consider this worth knowing and acknowledging, as it's all too easy for more fortunate people to diminish others problems, resulting in a skewed outlook on the world. It bothers me when people who constitutionally have no problem with something do not understand that it really is very different for others.
I will have to talk to people about all this. I don't want to be an unknowing burden or nuisance to people in my life and hope that I have not been.
Emotional expression is not the same as complaining to me. Someone stating that they didn't like X,Y, or Z is different than them telling me that seeking to illicit a response of sympathy from me. There are plenty of negative things in the world, and people discuss them frequently without complaining about them. I see complaining as a very different behavior.
I have very little insight the experience of complaining. What the person is feeling inside, I can only draw conclusions based on what I observe, but also what people tell me when it comes to their motivations for complaining. Also their behavior after doing so. If they constantly run into the same problems, and the problems are those of their own making which they frequently are, there is no room to be concerned with their displeasure regarding the outcome. If there is no willingness to address the cause, but upset about the outcome, I do not see the habit of complaining to be anything other than emotional manipulation.
Ah, then I see we really are bumping up against problems with definitions. As I am pretty accepting of complaining, I might not immediately draw the distinctions between what is acceptable and what is not, emotional expression vs legit seeking sympathy vs manipulative and needy seeking sympathy. I might not notice at all! I had not thought of this 'very different behaviour' thing. I don't tend to assume people just want sympathy, and anyway, I am happy to offer it. It would take a fair bit for me to find them tiresome, and I haven't known many people who overdo it. Which is why it was very interesting to read the 'confessions' from people here. I saw a bit of that in the me of the past. Cringe....
It's funny, as exasperating as it can be when people seem not to follow good advice to solve their problems rationally, I just sigh and accept it as an unfortunate but inevitable part of the human condition. Maybe there"s more to their situation and it's not that simple, maybe they have mental traps they are unaware of, they are not me and are looking out of different eyeballs, I have no doubt been just as ridiculous at times. In this situation there would be a limit to how much I would be prepared to listen to them I suppose. But in this context, any idea of 'emotional manipulation' would something I consider trivial. Its too serious a description for many ordinary instances of this behaviour. Emotional manipulation can be a very bad thing, unless they are REALLY overdoing it with their demands, well, to me it's just words, and human frailty.
Do you often find people have a habit of trying to take advantage of you?
I ask, because I have observed that when people are unaware of emotional manipulation for sympathy or gain, that those attempting to do so will move in on those types in order to get what they can out of them. I have had several conversations with friends that are unable to see what I see, and will refuse to listen to me when I point out that the person that they are trying to help is outright toxic.
I see it straight away, and am immediately annoyed by their behavior which of course to my friend appears to be cruel and totally unempathetic. That is until the person does exactly what I warn them about, and they come back and tell me I was right about them. They ask me how I knew, I tell them, they say that they will pay attention in the future, but they don't.
This whole process repeats itself quite often, and that is with people that I am able to point out to them what is happening. I wonder if you have had this experience because you aren't familiar with what these types sound like in the beginning, so you don't shut them out immediately.
Actually no, not much as an adult, which may be just my good luck. I don't think I'd be blind to something so overt, just that I am less reactive than you are to the lower levels of the behaviour, in moderation it doesn't push my buttons. It's useful that you can spot serious manipulators immediately. Do you sometimes get it wrong though and overreact to someone who really is just a bit of a whinger but has no bigger plans to take advantage? I guess the test for me would be if someone did try to take serious advantage. Would I spot it and pull back in time? I think so, unless I was too invested in them emotionally, then all bets would be off, I become useless.
PS I am not suggesting I am some super easy going tolerant person across the board. Attempts to make me participate in something, the social pressure to be a good sport, will get people absolutely nowhere with me, hackles up and no compromise. Talking arrogantly on a topic you clearly kmow nothing about, well, instant no respect. We all have our things!
Very well said
I agree that complaining is selfish, but it is part of supporting someone else emotionally, sometimes as well.
Well said
I watched one group (probably mostly NTs) that had a social norm of complaining, almost. It seemed a group bonding ritual. I think it helped maintain an "us" against "them" for this group. There were some costs though; the complaining and structuring of the "us" kept the group members from changing their perspectives on some situations. It might have kept group members feeling like the "them" people had more power over everything than was true...
Being part of a group is a huge thing for social primates often! I guess I can feel some of the comfort of it but I don't like it when people seem unaware of these influences.... of course who knows if there is any truth to what I thought was going on...
Yes, it does seem to be something that reinforces tribal identity, whatever that identity is.
I complain to close people, though I do so rarely and only when I see that doing so will help me or as a part of the story. Like complaining to someone about something health related and checking if what I experience is normal or not, when I am not able to evaluate it myself. I don’t expect pity. Another example would be telling about an unfortunate event in a conversation. I tell about events that I consider interesting and or funny. As it happens most of such events are bad ones, so I tell about them. I don’t expect pity or help without directly asking for help either. The reaction of people offering it has always been confusing to me.
I don't know that I would term either of those events complaining. One is looking for feedback for medical reasons, and the other is relaying information.
Complaining would be having a health situation that you bring up every chance you get to remind people that you have it for the purpose of getting their attention.
I am not sure complaining is limited to that, in my native language too it has a more simple meaning.
That describes it accurately, but I am not sure if the first one still isn’t complaining. The second now as I am thinking, I agree with you, is rather just telling about something.
This I never do and I have a different intent when I complain in my definition of complaining.
Do not complain about that what you need not suffer from - Anton LaVey (Church of Satan)
Oh! I forgot to mention that at the same time, there was lot of human complaining that YHWH found detestable and wearing.
being a victim often provides mental comfort; fake victims more prefer to complain