This was very well written, and should be helpful for people who are interested in understanding our differences. It must be tiring for you to always have to adjust to things you have no way to understand.
NT's have trouble with relationships because people always seem to apply their own feelings and understanding to others, and literally everyone is different. Add to that, that most people don't really listen to the other person, and you've got a mess.
That being said I'm sure that the differences between "us" makes us quite alien to each other.
Most people only care to understand people like them, unfortunately that also means they won't ever want to understand you.
I find that to be a loss to everyone for many reasons .
Personally I find you quite interesting, and pleasant.
Man this one is so on point. I recall a very emotional girlfriend I was with in my early 20's whose fits of jealousy destroyed what she wanted with me. I simply could not understand what was happening with her at all.
Jealousy is a great example of how different people have different reactions. And it's not just a difference between NTs and psychopaths. There's also a lot of difference among NTs in their "vulnerability" to feeling jealousy -- and also whether another NT person at the table would understand it. I hesitate to say this, because it may sound like bragging, but I have almost never felt jealousy because I have a lot of confidence in my value as a life partner. So why would I feel jealous of a significant other showing interest in another person? And those few times that I have felt jealousy, it's been only mild twinges and quickly dismissed.
But the reason in most instances that the NT and Psychopath cannot begin to communicate is -- first of all the NT probably does not know the partner is psychopathic(nor have any idea of what that entails)and not all psychopaths are as interested in the relationship at the level of understanding you have, Athena. In my experience (NT), I knew my partner was different but had no idea what that meant exactly (in fact, I did not fully understand it until 35 years later and then only after reading, and reading, and still reading about what psychopathy is -- your "real life" posts, Athena, being the most beneficial to my understanding. What I did know at the time, was my partner did not understand love or feelings. I was determined to bring love into the relationship and my ultimate goal was to show love and I did so with a passion and clear determination. So, in the end, when ALL my love and efforts had no impact, the sudden departure and subsequent no talk nor any kind of acknowledgement of how long we had been together was crushing! It took me years, a lot of years, to get on with my life and this did not happen until I became familiar with psychopathy and then, at minimum, I could begin to see what had transpired. For me, I too agree with GBarnes that this is your best share thus far. You definitely "hit the nail on the head." As difficult as it is for you to understand NT emotions, just remember it is a two-way street, please remember, it is incredibly difficult for us to understand your lack of emotion, feeling, caring. Even now, being more familiar with psychopathy, it is very, very, puzzling and trying to get a grip on it. One thing that stands out for me--you have stated many times that even as a psychopath you always have the choice, as do I, and you appear to "want" to make good choices and keep harmony alive.
Great post! I had to learn that my own worldview (emotional experience, etc) doesn't apply to others, and it took so long. It's weird that no one teaches you that. Your posts helped me learn more and improve my cognitive empathy. Thank you!
By the way, I've been wondering. Do psychopaths procrastinate? I had to learn that I didn't need to "feel like doing it" to get things done. Though another reason for my procrastination is anxiety which causes perfectionism (so things take so long to get done). Can psychopaths have perfectionism? From what I understand, perfectionism is a way a person tries to "control" the world around them and the results, because they fear losing control (maybe they are anxious about letting others see where they are failing). So not sure if this can apply to psychopaths.
As is often the case, I started thinking about how (my?) autism differs both from what you describe and what I understand NTs to go through... My sense -- developed over decades, really -- is that my emotions can be very strong, but are not as integrated with my reasoning as seems to be the case for some NTs. It seems to me that this is part of what helps me have more bandwidth for logic, math, etc., but can also make processing my actual emotions more difficult than some NTs seem to find these things. I do in fact have some very strong emotions! If activated, they sometimes feel like an alien blob in my brain... it can take a long time to figure things out... Though my birth family was also not good at verbalizing emotions; since they may have been autistic too, is this all learned or innate or both?
The range of emotions I commonly feel seems different from some NTs too. (Though they differ amongst themselves.). Jealousy is something I seem to have very little of, but sadness, fear, anger definitely... plus many positive emotions. Yet I kind-of prefer a fairly even keel, and do things to stay there like exercise sometimes. I like intellectual challenges a lot, not so much deep bonding conversations... the latter are so draining, omg, though occasionally helpful for me. Anyhow, thank you for the great post and the other responses too are very interesting.
Since I began reading your posts, I have often wondered if any of the people I've known in my life were actually psychopaths. And I think perhaps yes.
This person was very very calm and had fairly flat affect. That is, yes they showed some feelings, but pretty mild ones and I cannot remember any oxytocin ones. Occasional short flashes of mild anger or annoyance. Laughter seemed pretty normal. They did not seem to especially mourn the loss of a dog, mostly just went on with their life. They did not seem to get especially "hooked into" any dramatic qualities of stuff happening in their friends' lives. In other words, looking back, perhaps lacking empathy. They didn't show any behavior intending to comfort others who were feeling distress.
OTOH, I would have to rate this person as somewhat middle-scale-spectrum on some of the psychopathic traits you've described elsewhere. In particular, I saw no indications of risk-ignoring behavior, although I don't remember any instances of fear, either. I also do not sense that this person had much of a mask, if any. Of course, that might mean they had an amazingly successful mask -- but if so, I would expect them to be emulating NT emotions, which I saw no evidence of.
I'm curious what you think, if you care to comment on this.
I want to share my perspective and experiences as an NT.
Many NTs don't understand their own inner system (including their emotional system). Often they are confuse with their own self, don't know what exactly they wants and needs. Confusing.
Emotional system it's like programs that installed through the years from environment and became autopilot. Once NTs start learning their own system, the programs and understand the "WHY?" NTs will more understand their own self, step by step and bring that emotional system to maturity (or reprogramming it little by little) and more rational (emotions makes our view is muddy, often it makes us failed to look what it is, what's important to see, to think what the steps that we must take to get solutions and often it's lead situations becomes more chaos and difficult to handle. Emotions very fast to occupies our brain, it's like a song that repeated again & again when it's triggered, then the whole body affected by it including hormone system. When we triggered if we can't get way to release the energy of emotions or processing it, it often lead us to frustration and lead to unnecessary overreaction.
NT's emotional system is like a button that fast triggered by many things (i think it's because as you said we coding memories with emotions in it), often it makes us miss reading the actual and factual information and data here and now (cause it's based on the programs/memories in the past that actually the situation didn't exist in here and now).
Example : long time ago i felt great sadness, gloomy and uneasy when rainy days. I don't know why?. Until 1 day i remember i broken up with my ex SO when rainy season LOL. Then i started to practices to see and feel here and now, to told my self that thing is already passed. There is nothing happen now it's just rain.
Another example : 1 day i wanted to open the door in my home, my body shaken badly i felt great fear and terror. My rational thinking confused. There is nothing that triggered me at that time, WHY my body reacted like this?! i need to forced my self to opened the door. Days later i remembered and understood the "WHY?". When i was a kid I'm really scared to open the door when my parent had fight, my body's reaction it was same when i opened the door. Once again i need to told my self, that there is nothing outside happened, we are safe now, it's already passed. Our memories that linked to emotional system often lead our view to realities become bias. Our reactions to emotions it's programs too. When i read your blog, I just knew that me as an NT, coding memories with emotions in it, I just nod nod, ahhh no wonder many things seems able to triggers the emotions even there is nothing in there at the actual time. Thanks to you for that information.
The more NTs understand their own emotional system the more that they recognises it when it start to occurs (the first signal in our body) and learn to handle it step by step ( step back for a while, watch our body reaction that started to shift from normal condition, watch our mind and notice what emotions that occured, bring the energy to take deep breath and focus in it to makes us relax, start to processing it internally, then our thinking process able to work again and the reactions become manageable).
It's need a lot of effort and hard work with awareness. It's not easy but when we practice again and again, and it will become natural by the time. It's like reprogramming old program that didn't serve well now for many situations in life.
I'm glad i found your blog. It's so interesting and i learn many new things. Thank you Athena.
Could you do one case study on Paris Bennet? He was a murderer who killed his sister Ella when she was 4 yrs old and he was 11. Exactly like "We need to talk about Kevin", to punish his mother.
I would love to hear your thoughts on that, since he is called a psychopath, but was able to display violent shows of aggression , which should be impossible for a psychopath , right?
An important post. So true, it's really only during the last ten years or so that I have come to understand that there can be such fundamental differences between people. I wish this article had been around during my teens, and beyond. Yes, I'm on board and communicating now, but I wish I knew earlier. This should be an explicit part of childhood education.
Athena, I do not mean to be disrespectful, when you say that you know what emotions are. Yes, technically you do, those brief mild flashes which are NOTHING really compared the the real stuff (but thank heavens you KINDA get it, otherwise there could be no communication about 'emotions' at all), but the list of things that you don't feel is so long, and the contents of the list so intense and so fundamental to neurotypical's everyday experience, that it really amounts to the barest glimpse of what 'emotions' are.. It's like someone colourblind saying they see yellow or blue in a field of sepia, so yeah, they totally 'know' what colour is, and come on, red and green are pretty similar browns, aren't they? Nope, they are not. I am not trying to be negative here, especially as you talk extensively with the neurotypicals in your life in order to gain understanding (and what more could you do to understand?). There is no criticism here, we need and want your voice, and you are who you are.
This was very well written, and should be helpful for people who are interested in understanding our differences. It must be tiring for you to always have to adjust to things you have no way to understand.
NT's have trouble with relationships because people always seem to apply their own feelings and understanding to others, and literally everyone is different. Add to that, that most people don't really listen to the other person, and you've got a mess.
That being said I'm sure that the differences between "us" makes us quite alien to each other.
Most people only care to understand people like them, unfortunately that also means they won't ever want to understand you.
I find that to be a loss to everyone for many reasons .
Personally I find you quite interesting, and pleasant.
This was a really good read.
Man this one is so on point. I recall a very emotional girlfriend I was with in my early 20's whose fits of jealousy destroyed what she wanted with me. I simply could not understand what was happening with her at all.
Jealousy is a great example of how different people have different reactions. And it's not just a difference between NTs and psychopaths. There's also a lot of difference among NTs in their "vulnerability" to feeling jealousy -- and also whether another NT person at the table would understand it. I hesitate to say this, because it may sound like bragging, but I have almost never felt jealousy because I have a lot of confidence in my value as a life partner. So why would I feel jealous of a significant other showing interest in another person? And those few times that I have felt jealousy, it's been only mild twinges and quickly dismissed.
But the reason in most instances that the NT and Psychopath cannot begin to communicate is -- first of all the NT probably does not know the partner is psychopathic(nor have any idea of what that entails)and not all psychopaths are as interested in the relationship at the level of understanding you have, Athena. In my experience (NT), I knew my partner was different but had no idea what that meant exactly (in fact, I did not fully understand it until 35 years later and then only after reading, and reading, and still reading about what psychopathy is -- your "real life" posts, Athena, being the most beneficial to my understanding. What I did know at the time, was my partner did not understand love or feelings. I was determined to bring love into the relationship and my ultimate goal was to show love and I did so with a passion and clear determination. So, in the end, when ALL my love and efforts had no impact, the sudden departure and subsequent no talk nor any kind of acknowledgement of how long we had been together was crushing! It took me years, a lot of years, to get on with my life and this did not happen until I became familiar with psychopathy and then, at minimum, I could begin to see what had transpired. For me, I too agree with GBarnes that this is your best share thus far. You definitely "hit the nail on the head." As difficult as it is for you to understand NT emotions, just remember it is a two-way street, please remember, it is incredibly difficult for us to understand your lack of emotion, feeling, caring. Even now, being more familiar with psychopathy, it is very, very, puzzling and trying to get a grip on it. One thing that stands out for me--you have stated many times that even as a psychopath you always have the choice, as do I, and you appear to "want" to make good choices and keep harmony alive.
Great post! I had to learn that my own worldview (emotional experience, etc) doesn't apply to others, and it took so long. It's weird that no one teaches you that. Your posts helped me learn more and improve my cognitive empathy. Thank you!
By the way, I've been wondering. Do psychopaths procrastinate? I had to learn that I didn't need to "feel like doing it" to get things done. Though another reason for my procrastination is anxiety which causes perfectionism (so things take so long to get done). Can psychopaths have perfectionism? From what I understand, perfectionism is a way a person tries to "control" the world around them and the results, because they fear losing control (maybe they are anxious about letting others see where they are failing). So not sure if this can apply to psychopaths.
Thank you for another excellent piece of writing.
As is often the case, I started thinking about how (my?) autism differs both from what you describe and what I understand NTs to go through... My sense -- developed over decades, really -- is that my emotions can be very strong, but are not as integrated with my reasoning as seems to be the case for some NTs. It seems to me that this is part of what helps me have more bandwidth for logic, math, etc., but can also make processing my actual emotions more difficult than some NTs seem to find these things. I do in fact have some very strong emotions! If activated, they sometimes feel like an alien blob in my brain... it can take a long time to figure things out... Though my birth family was also not good at verbalizing emotions; since they may have been autistic too, is this all learned or innate or both?
The range of emotions I commonly feel seems different from some NTs too. (Though they differ amongst themselves.). Jealousy is something I seem to have very little of, but sadness, fear, anger definitely... plus many positive emotions. Yet I kind-of prefer a fairly even keel, and do things to stay there like exercise sometimes. I like intellectual challenges a lot, not so much deep bonding conversations... the latter are so draining, omg, though occasionally helpful for me. Anyhow, thank you for the great post and the other responses too are very interesting.
I'll see if I can explain it
Love - when you eat a candy, it tastes sweet, do you like it? If yes that's love along with the sweetness
Hate - when you trip and graze your knee, it physically burns that's how hate feels
Rage - Imagine touching fire, it'll burn your hands and you'll wail and jump wildly
Fear - N/A
Worry - N/A
Doubt - i don't know what that is
Sadness - N/A
Loneliness - same as boredom
Bonding - i don't know what that's lik lol
Trust - i don't know what that is
Do you understand? 😊
Since I began reading your posts, I have often wondered if any of the people I've known in my life were actually psychopaths. And I think perhaps yes.
This person was very very calm and had fairly flat affect. That is, yes they showed some feelings, but pretty mild ones and I cannot remember any oxytocin ones. Occasional short flashes of mild anger or annoyance. Laughter seemed pretty normal. They did not seem to especially mourn the loss of a dog, mostly just went on with their life. They did not seem to get especially "hooked into" any dramatic qualities of stuff happening in their friends' lives. In other words, looking back, perhaps lacking empathy. They didn't show any behavior intending to comfort others who were feeling distress.
OTOH, I would have to rate this person as somewhat middle-scale-spectrum on some of the psychopathic traits you've described elsewhere. In particular, I saw no indications of risk-ignoring behavior, although I don't remember any instances of fear, either. I also do not sense that this person had much of a mask, if any. Of course, that might mean they had an amazingly successful mask -- but if so, I would expect them to be emulating NT emotions, which I saw no evidence of.
I'm curious what you think, if you care to comment on this.
I want to share my perspective and experiences as an NT.
Many NTs don't understand their own inner system (including their emotional system). Often they are confuse with their own self, don't know what exactly they wants and needs. Confusing.
Emotional system it's like programs that installed through the years from environment and became autopilot. Once NTs start learning their own system, the programs and understand the "WHY?" NTs will more understand their own self, step by step and bring that emotional system to maturity (or reprogramming it little by little) and more rational (emotions makes our view is muddy, often it makes us failed to look what it is, what's important to see, to think what the steps that we must take to get solutions and often it's lead situations becomes more chaos and difficult to handle. Emotions very fast to occupies our brain, it's like a song that repeated again & again when it's triggered, then the whole body affected by it including hormone system. When we triggered if we can't get way to release the energy of emotions or processing it, it often lead us to frustration and lead to unnecessary overreaction.
NT's emotional system is like a button that fast triggered by many things (i think it's because as you said we coding memories with emotions in it), often it makes us miss reading the actual and factual information and data here and now (cause it's based on the programs/memories in the past that actually the situation didn't exist in here and now).
Example : long time ago i felt great sadness, gloomy and uneasy when rainy days. I don't know why?. Until 1 day i remember i broken up with my ex SO when rainy season LOL. Then i started to practices to see and feel here and now, to told my self that thing is already passed. There is nothing happen now it's just rain.
Another example : 1 day i wanted to open the door in my home, my body shaken badly i felt great fear and terror. My rational thinking confused. There is nothing that triggered me at that time, WHY my body reacted like this?! i need to forced my self to opened the door. Days later i remembered and understood the "WHY?". When i was a kid I'm really scared to open the door when my parent had fight, my body's reaction it was same when i opened the door. Once again i need to told my self, that there is nothing outside happened, we are safe now, it's already passed. Our memories that linked to emotional system often lead our view to realities become bias. Our reactions to emotions it's programs too. When i read your blog, I just knew that me as an NT, coding memories with emotions in it, I just nod nod, ahhh no wonder many things seems able to triggers the emotions even there is nothing in there at the actual time. Thanks to you for that information.
The more NTs understand their own emotional system the more that they recognises it when it start to occurs (the first signal in our body) and learn to handle it step by step ( step back for a while, watch our body reaction that started to shift from normal condition, watch our mind and notice what emotions that occured, bring the energy to take deep breath and focus in it to makes us relax, start to processing it internally, then our thinking process able to work again and the reactions become manageable).
It's need a lot of effort and hard work with awareness. It's not easy but when we practice again and again, and it will become natural by the time. It's like reprogramming old program that didn't serve well now for many situations in life.
I'm glad i found your blog. It's so interesting and i learn many new things. Thank you Athena.
Could you do one case study on Paris Bennet? He was a murderer who killed his sister Ella when she was 4 yrs old and he was 11. Exactly like "We need to talk about Kevin", to punish his mother.
I would love to hear your thoughts on that, since he is called a psychopath, but was able to display violent shows of aggression , which should be impossible for a psychopath , right?
An important post. So true, it's really only during the last ten years or so that I have come to understand that there can be such fundamental differences between people. I wish this article had been around during my teens, and beyond. Yes, I'm on board and communicating now, but I wish I knew earlier. This should be an explicit part of childhood education.
I think this is your best share thus far. Well Done and keep up the great work :)
This seeming cruelty can and does happen between NT’s
Some of us more *cerebral types can find themselves wondering “what’s the big deal about X, why all the drama when it’s just (fact, fact, fact)?
Also, I enjoyed reading the emotions list, and wonder what Psyches do feel?
I’ve seen:
Humor
Boredom
Annoyance
Ennui’
Generic excitement
Wanting/desire
Pain avoidance
Hunger/ lust
Perhaps these are dopamine driven emotions
….
Athena, I do not mean to be disrespectful, when you say that you know what emotions are. Yes, technically you do, those brief mild flashes which are NOTHING really compared the the real stuff (but thank heavens you KINDA get it, otherwise there could be no communication about 'emotions' at all), but the list of things that you don't feel is so long, and the contents of the list so intense and so fundamental to neurotypical's everyday experience, that it really amounts to the barest glimpse of what 'emotions' are.. It's like someone colourblind saying they see yellow or blue in a field of sepia, so yeah, they totally 'know' what colour is, and come on, red and green are pretty similar browns, aren't they? Nope, they are not. I am not trying to be negative here, especially as you talk extensively with the neurotypicals in your life in order to gain understanding (and what more could you do to understand?). There is no criticism here, we need and want your voice, and you are who you are.