A need for control is exercised by people as a substitute for true intimacy in a relationship. That's why it's recognized as immature behavior by most people. And of course immature people trade in illusions because they are still working on the level of transaction.
Think about boys... they always try to boss their mommy around until they grow out of it. Some boys never grow out of it. Older women will cackle if you tell them that. :D
It's a mammal thing, I had a female Rottweiler named Daisy. I rescued a stray Black Mouthed Cur puppy and named him Sparky. Despite being a puppy and Daisy taking over "momma" duties when he got older he began to assert himself and by the time he was about 18 months old the order was me-> Sparky -> Daisy and Daisy was perfectly happy with the new arrangement.
The calico kitten we have has the better of us. She insisted on coming into the bedroom at night instead of spending it with the older male. We used to have a "no cats in the bedroom" rule but she just wore us down until we gave in. Now I wake up to a small velvet paw on my face whenever she sees me surfacing from sleep. She gets away with being awesomely willful by being totally adorably cute. :)
The awful teacher example: I was terrified of a crazy teacher that was not my own classroom teacher, thank heavens. On the days when he was on playground duty I was churning and sick from the moment I woke up, and spent the day desperately avoiding him, very casually like, a technique that later served me well with Russian police. I lived in terror of his being my classroom teacher in the next year. My parents could have been no help in this. One time in the playground he shouted at me furiously out of nowhere for absolutely no reason and I wet myself in terror and then had to deal with the shame of that. I was 9, so there was no way I could have had the insight or detachment to take an uminvolved stance. This is how it is for us non psycopaths.To think of a teacher going berserk and not caring is unimaginable, but oh so appealing!
Oh yes. Luckily most teachers weren't like that. But this was the 70s and such behaviour and worse was entirely normalised and acceptable, just an inevitable hazard for kids to cope with. The dark ages!
How about if somebody (in a way they wouldn't normally) attempts to force somebody else to do or not do something (against their wishes at the time) that relates to potentially (or actually) saving their life (assuming that they don't want to die at that point or don't want to die as a result of causing themselves a serious accident). Curious to know your thoughts on such a situation type.
Hm, I'm not exactly sure. Do you mean like someone that physically removes a tourist from the edge of a cliff that they not only climbed barricades to get to, but are also insisting on standing on unstable ground in order to get a stupid selfie?
I think that idiots often need policing, and an action like that is idiotic. People can be so self involved that they don't realize the barricade was there for a reason.
I should have made myself clearer sorry. I was thinking more along the lines of an elderly person having reached a point in life they're incapable of living independently or safely alone anymore (but irrationally want to cling to the idea of still being as capable as they were when younger/healthier) despite developing something along the lines of Dementia - perhaps alongside having frequent physical accidents because of a physical health condition also etc.
I get what you mean on that other scenario type you mentioned though. 100% agree that kind of thing is idiotic!
In the case that you describe, they have demonstrated they are incapable of making rational decisions for themselves. Just as I do not have a problem committing a person that is a danger to themselves or others for mental health reasons, I see no issue with putting someone into a care facility fore their health and well being.
They should be placed in a care facility. I have directly dealt with this, and there is no excuse leaving a person that believes that they can care for themselves when it is clear that they cannot, to fend for themselves. Much like you wouldn't leave a two year old to figure out how to care for themselves, when a person is developing dementia, by the time it is able to be seen by people around them, they will deteriorate quickly.
People in this state will repeatedly take their medications, thinking that they hadn't done so. Will think that they ate when they haven't. Forget to drink water and become dehydrated and confused. It's difficult to do, but necessary for their own welfare.
My partners grandmother went through this kind of thing. It actually wasn’t necessary for this to happen instantly with her I seem to remember. Extra arranged home help alongside one of her daughters providing some extra assistance was enough for some while. But she did reach the point of needing to be placed in a home later and had to be tricked into agreeing to it after her situation worsened. I imagine there must have been legal obstacles to get around but somehow it was managed.
Yes, once they are a certain point of deterioration that of course need to be put in a facility. But the reluctance to do this isn't only because it makes people sad. Doing things 'for people's own good' has a very dodgy history, from putting difficulty women in madhouses in the 19th century, to teen boot camps, tough love, interventions, medicating people for convenience, there's just so much awful abuse and misuse of the 'for their own good'. So I understand the wish to be very sure it is necessary and not do it any sooner than required.
Yup. It’s a tough question. On one hand, if said sufferer wants to keep their sense of adult independence and freedom to make their own choices intervening in their safety can be thought of as going against their free will/a way of controlling them. But on the other hand if they’re going to be worse off for a non intervention happening…
I consider it this way. It is not considered "controlling" a child to prevent them from walking into traffic. It is consider protecting them because they are unable to make good decisions for themselves. I see the same to be true in people that are succumbing to to dementia.
See this is where I get confused. I don't care if I get fired. I don't care if I offended someone, I have no interest in manipulation or control, wealth or success. I don't care about bills, fame, social status. I am definitely not a psychopath. What gives you drive to do the things you do? Does money motivate you? What drives you to work towards your goals and what are your goals? What makes you happy? What are you working towards? That's what I want to know.
I like living. Life itself is the reward. I get to see, do, think about, experience new things all the time. It opens new ideas to me, it allows me to further develop my cognitive empathy, and broadens my understanding of how the world operates. It is true however, the more you experience, the clearer it is that you know very little. It makes it very interesting.
The best I can do is tell you that I find a great deal of enjoyment finding things that are outside of my understanding. I don't know how to fix not having any care about anything however, as it isn't a state that I have ever been in.
I think instead, and I do this, I look at Athena’s logical responses to things that we, with the full range of emotion, often have trouble doing. Being able to see logic, in regards to life decisions/actions, and not have emotion overwhelm thinking, is a skill. I glean bits of personal wisdom and try to incorporate them, while realizing there is joy in emotions-as long as they aren’t able to overwhelm you so that your life becomes difficult. Athena can never ‘show’ you how to ‘emotionally’ care. It is physically not possible for her (and I state a fact, without judgement, to be clear here). A good therapist, however? They can do wonders.
Yes, a therapist whom you connect with can assist you in this process.
It's on you to apply what you learn in real life.
What's helped me is studying Stoic Philosophy... Epictetus, Seneca, Marcus Aurelius etc al. Your library can help you find books. I've found that actually reading a physical book works best for me.
Anyways, you can start by looking up Stoic Philosophy on Wikipedia. See if the principals resonate with you.
I assume you are directing this suggestion to the person I responded to? Stoicism is an interesting study, but if a person is having problems with emotional regulation, I’d recommend mindfulness first, perhaps meditation. Many apps
/resources exist and are easily available. I say this because If someone is suffering from depression, for example, concentration can be a problem. Philosophical theory can be intimidating for some, at least from primary sources. For a person who appreciates intellectual thought and is able to study it, apply it, etc., stoicism can be exceptionally helpful - I agree.
Wow. I would like to apply some of these things to my life. I have dealt with situations mostly emotionally, not with logic. Looking back, I know I could have done so many things differently if I broke it down to basics
Am a senior tax preparer, everyone in this profession is currently running on fumes .
Here's today's example of a client calling to rant about his tax return. (As an aside, I found out his wife had called yesterday about the same issue which my boss thoroughly explained to her.)
Here goes...
The husband calls with the exact issue/question with an agressively loud tone of voice. I responded with an assertive answer/offer to assist. He then proceeded to call me rude.
I decided to play this as a Chess game.
De-escalated the situation by slowing and lowering my voice to a "therapist's voice".
Suggested we might start the conversation over. Gave him time to think and agree.
I then walked him through his/their entire tax return line item by line item. When he became agitated we backed up to the prior understood line item.
All the while I used the calm patient voice .
Took about an hour of time.
I put the fire out, blacklisted him/wife for next year (my reward), decided I'd had enough and read Chess theory until time to leave .
Ok , but do you think confrontation could lead to more pestering? Or it would stop? I had seen a YouTube video by jaygee where a woman videotaped herself walking through the streets of NYC. Whenever someone catcalled her, she would talk back to them. The guys then got uncomfortable and backed off on their own. It was an interesting observation , which happened repeatedly.
Assume videos like that on YouTube are entirely staged, because they usually are. People want clicks, not to teach lessons on social etiquette on street corners.
I just ignore things like that. As I said, they don't have anything to do with me.
Often people are controlling because it makes them feel like they matter. They feel important and heard when people do what they say. Also, there are just entitled people that think that the world owes them everything.
A need for control is exercised by people as a substitute for true intimacy in a relationship. That's why it's recognized as immature behavior by most people. And of course immature people trade in illusions because they are still working on the level of transaction.
Really? Now that's interesting. I had not considered it that way.
Think about boys... they always try to boss their mommy around until they grow out of it. Some boys never grow out of it. Older women will cackle if you tell them that. :D
Not being around children on a regular basis, I didn't know that.
It's a mammal thing, I had a female Rottweiler named Daisy. I rescued a stray Black Mouthed Cur puppy and named him Sparky. Despite being a puppy and Daisy taking over "momma" duties when he got older he began to assert himself and by the time he was about 18 months old the order was me-> Sparky -> Daisy and Daisy was perfectly happy with the new arrangement.
The calico kitten we have has the better of us. She insisted on coming into the bedroom at night instead of spending it with the older male. We used to have a "no cats in the bedroom" rule but she just wore us down until we gave in. Now I wake up to a small velvet paw on my face whenever she sees me surfacing from sleep. She gets away with being awesomely willful by being totally adorably cute. :)
Cats are very good at making rules a thing of the past.
Aren't they just? It's extraordinary.
Dachshund's are like that as well, I have a male dachshund and a female schnauzer and I just say that he's my roommate and she's his girlfriend :P
Not caring always came naturally to me. It's very liberating.
Compared to what I see around me, agreed.
Very lucky!
The awful teacher example: I was terrified of a crazy teacher that was not my own classroom teacher, thank heavens. On the days when he was on playground duty I was churning and sick from the moment I woke up, and spent the day desperately avoiding him, very casually like, a technique that later served me well with Russian police. I lived in terror of his being my classroom teacher in the next year. My parents could have been no help in this. One time in the playground he shouted at me furiously out of nowhere for absolutely no reason and I wet myself in terror and then had to deal with the shame of that. I was 9, so there was no way I could have had the insight or detachment to take an uminvolved stance. This is how it is for us non psycopaths.To think of a teacher going berserk and not caring is unimaginable, but oh so appealing!
He sounds like an ass.
Oh yes. Luckily most teachers weren't like that. But this was the 70s and such behaviour and worse was entirely normalised and acceptable, just an inevitable hazard for kids to cope with. The dark ages!
Candidate for the Darwin Awards
How about if somebody (in a way they wouldn't normally) attempts to force somebody else to do or not do something (against their wishes at the time) that relates to potentially (or actually) saving their life (assuming that they don't want to die at that point or don't want to die as a result of causing themselves a serious accident). Curious to know your thoughts on such a situation type.
And good article! Thanks for sharing.
Hm, I'm not exactly sure. Do you mean like someone that physically removes a tourist from the edge of a cliff that they not only climbed barricades to get to, but are also insisting on standing on unstable ground in order to get a stupid selfie?
I think that idiots often need policing, and an action like that is idiotic. People can be so self involved that they don't realize the barricade was there for a reason.
I should have made myself clearer sorry. I was thinking more along the lines of an elderly person having reached a point in life they're incapable of living independently or safely alone anymore (but irrationally want to cling to the idea of still being as capable as they were when younger/healthier) despite developing something along the lines of Dementia - perhaps alongside having frequent physical accidents because of a physical health condition also etc.
I get what you mean on that other scenario type you mentioned though. 100% agree that kind of thing is idiotic!
In the case that you describe, they have demonstrated they are incapable of making rational decisions for themselves. Just as I do not have a problem committing a person that is a danger to themselves or others for mental health reasons, I see no issue with putting someone into a care facility fore their health and well being.
That's a dreadful situation you describe and one with no easy answers.
They should be placed in a care facility. I have directly dealt with this, and there is no excuse leaving a person that believes that they can care for themselves when it is clear that they cannot, to fend for themselves. Much like you wouldn't leave a two year old to figure out how to care for themselves, when a person is developing dementia, by the time it is able to be seen by people around them, they will deteriorate quickly.
People in this state will repeatedly take their medications, thinking that they hadn't done so. Will think that they ate when they haven't. Forget to drink water and become dehydrated and confused. It's difficult to do, but necessary for their own welfare.
My partners grandmother went through this kind of thing. It actually wasn’t necessary for this to happen instantly with her I seem to remember. Extra arranged home help alongside one of her daughters providing some extra assistance was enough for some while. But she did reach the point of needing to be placed in a home later and had to be tricked into agreeing to it after her situation worsened. I imagine there must have been legal obstacles to get around but somehow it was managed.
Yes, once they are a certain point of deterioration that of course need to be put in a facility. But the reluctance to do this isn't only because it makes people sad. Doing things 'for people's own good' has a very dodgy history, from putting difficulty women in madhouses in the 19th century, to teen boot camps, tough love, interventions, medicating people for convenience, there's just so much awful abuse and misuse of the 'for their own good'. So I understand the wish to be very sure it is necessary and not do it any sooner than required.
I don't disagree with the history, but I do disagree that it has relevance in current times in modern western nations.
It is of course the families responsibility to be certain that the facility that they choose is going to treat their loved one well.
Yup. It’s a tough question. On one hand, if said sufferer wants to keep their sense of adult independence and freedom to make their own choices intervening in their safety can be thought of as going against their free will/a way of controlling them. But on the other hand if they’re going to be worse off for a non intervention happening…
I consider it this way. It is not considered "controlling" a child to prevent them from walking into traffic. It is consider protecting them because they are unable to make good decisions for themselves. I see the same to be true in people that are succumbing to to dementia.
That is a good way to look at it!
I married one of these, call me a minder!
See this is where I get confused. I don't care if I get fired. I don't care if I offended someone, I have no interest in manipulation or control, wealth or success. I don't care about bills, fame, social status. I am definitely not a psychopath. What gives you drive to do the things you do? Does money motivate you? What drives you to work towards your goals and what are your goals? What makes you happy? What are you working towards? That's what I want to know.
I like living. Life itself is the reward. I get to see, do, think about, experience new things all the time. It opens new ideas to me, it allows me to further develop my cognitive empathy, and broadens my understanding of how the world operates. It is true however, the more you experience, the clearer it is that you know very little. It makes it very interesting.
Here I am trying to learn from a psychopath how to learn to care about something.. anything.. maybe I need more therapy than I thought..
The best I can do is tell you that I find a great deal of enjoyment finding things that are outside of my understanding. I don't know how to fix not having any care about anything however, as it isn't a state that I have ever been in.
True, pushing intellectual limits is rewarding.
I think instead, and I do this, I look at Athena’s logical responses to things that we, with the full range of emotion, often have trouble doing. Being able to see logic, in regards to life decisions/actions, and not have emotion overwhelm thinking, is a skill. I glean bits of personal wisdom and try to incorporate them, while realizing there is joy in emotions-as long as they aren’t able to overwhelm you so that your life becomes difficult. Athena can never ‘show’ you how to ‘emotionally’ care. It is physically not possible for her (and I state a fact, without judgement, to be clear here). A good therapist, however? They can do wonders.
Excellent points
:)
Yes, a therapist whom you connect with can assist you in this process.
It's on you to apply what you learn in real life.
What's helped me is studying Stoic Philosophy... Epictetus, Seneca, Marcus Aurelius etc al. Your library can help you find books. I've found that actually reading a physical book works best for me.
Anyways, you can start by looking up Stoic Philosophy on Wikipedia. See if the principals resonate with you.
I assume you are directing this suggestion to the person I responded to? Stoicism is an interesting study, but if a person is having problems with emotional regulation, I’d recommend mindfulness first, perhaps meditation. Many apps
/resources exist and are easily available. I say this because If someone is suffering from depression, for example, concentration can be a problem. Philosophical theory can be intimidating for some, at least from primary sources. For a person who appreciates intellectual thought and is able to study it, apply it, etc., stoicism can be exceptionally helpful - I agree.
Thanks for pointing this out, and yes I was replying to this individual.
I swear not to answer anything until after I'm firing on all 24 cylinders.
AKA after recovering from tax season 😑
Thank you, this has been extremely helpful
I'm glad you found my reply! Makes me smile that you've been assisted by this. I'm here for you.
Yes, and I would guess that those worries will seem very trivial when they die.
If they did, I never noticed. Peer pressure is not something that I have ever noticed either.
Psychopaths never care what other people think. Other people are often nothing more than a minor annoyance, not people to take cues from.
Wow. I would like to apply some of these things to my life. I have dealt with situations mostly emotionally, not with logic. Looking back, I know I could have done so many things differently if I broke it down to basics
Yes Athena, to all of this post.
Am a senior tax preparer, everyone in this profession is currently running on fumes .
Here's today's example of a client calling to rant about his tax return. (As an aside, I found out his wife had called yesterday about the same issue which my boss thoroughly explained to her.)
Here goes...
The husband calls with the exact issue/question with an agressively loud tone of voice. I responded with an assertive answer/offer to assist. He then proceeded to call me rude.
I decided to play this as a Chess game.
De-escalated the situation by slowing and lowering my voice to a "therapist's voice".
Suggested we might start the conversation over. Gave him time to think and agree.
I then walked him through his/their entire tax return line item by line item. When he became agitated we backed up to the prior understood line item.
All the while I used the calm patient voice .
Took about an hour of time.
I put the fire out, blacklisted him/wife for next year (my reward), decided I'd had enough and read Chess theory until time to leave .
Indeed it works, it's amazing how people can basically be led almost like a leash through tone.
Which is so very fun
In this case it isn't sensitivity, it is being conditioned to social cues and responding in a way that is expected.
They do indeed, because they feel like they can.
Have you ever had to deal with catcalls? How did you deal with them?
I ignore them. I figure it has nothing to do with me.
Ok , but do you think confrontation could lead to more pestering? Or it would stop? I had seen a YouTube video by jaygee where a woman videotaped herself walking through the streets of NYC. Whenever someone catcalled her, she would talk back to them. The guys then got uncomfortable and backed off on their own. It was an interesting observation , which happened repeatedly.
Assume videos like that on YouTube are entirely staged, because they usually are. People want clicks, not to teach lessons on social etiquette on street corners.
I just ignore things like that. As I said, they don't have anything to do with me.
Ok
Don't give them any attention
Often people are controlling because it makes them feel like they matter. They feel important and heard when people do what they say. Also, there are just entitled people that think that the world owes them everything.
Most definitely.
The parent may see the child as a tool to fulfill their own goals, not as an individual that should be allowed to make their own decisions.
Interesting. Parents with that sort of expectations would have a very difficult time with a psychopathic child.