I was standing in the grocery line behind an older (rather disheveled looking) gentleman, casually listening to a conversation between him and the cashier. She (the cashier) was supporting him; I could tell they had a close connection.
When it was my turn, I said to her how nice her kindness was towards the gentleman.
Now starts the lesson:
The cashier told me about the gentleman’s background. He is a Veteran with a lot of psychological issues from being in active combat; PTSD etc.
And...
He has a neighbor who is a shut-in and he comes to buy groceries, using his own money, to assist his neighbor. She went on to say he is the most kind and selfless person she has ever met.
Perhaps what this article misses is that we have a word for the integration of emotional and cognitive empathy - it is called "compassion" where the mirroring of emotions is acted upon with chosen responses to address the situation. Emotions can motivate for good or evil. It is a questions of the beliefs that accompany the emotions. While short term behaviors can be coerced, the beliefs are the drivers of behavior in the long term.
Looking at the definition of compassion it doesn't seem to mean that. Instead it simply means that you feel pity or sympathy for a person. It says nothing about action.
I see that in the English language the meaning space inhabited by compassion leaves the definition which I have from the Old Testament and New Testament use of the word, which is always bound up with the intent to act upon empathy. The biblical world deals with emotions differently than we do in modern western civilization since the enlightenment and 19th century Romanticism, I guess.
This may be one of those situations where our words and usage can be vague. I think of 'compassion' as carrying a suggestion of possible action, and as definitely going beyond just feelings to incorporate some cognitive empathy. I am a sample of one person, though.
Rather than accompanying emotions, I see beliefs as preceding them. Emotions arise from the meaning that we assign to events and meaning arises from belief. That's why trying to control emotions in the moment doesn't work. Changing belief takes time and commitment, but eventually, it changes the emotional landscape.
See the issue is that particular groups are designated as being worthy of emotional empathy while others are deemed as worthy of disgust referring to a previous article.
It has nothing to do with the actual groups though. Rather, it's all self-referential. It's what we believe about ourselves. Things we try to disown, things we don't accept, end up being projected onto other people. That way, we fool ourselves into thinking the way we see the world has nothing to do with us.
People who are happy with themselves deem very few people, if any, worthy of disgust. The corrolary is true too. People who dislike themselves generally find fault with the world. Projection is most people's default defense.
We live in the world through our inner experience, and without a similar experience, you couldn't make sense of it. So that's my guess.
I've noticed, as my defensive emotions disappeared, certain behaviors stopped making sense on the level of experience. Iow, my emotional memory is shot. Emotional behaviors I used to experience confuse me now. I imagine that's similar to your experience.
Okay that clears some things up for me. I never have issues with myself at all. Back when I first heard about "low self esteem" I thought it was suppose to be some sort of joke. The concept of projection always puzzled me as well.
I can observe that these things actually do occur and seem to be really important to the neurotypical. I'd always assumed some sort of group mind motive for a lot of what I see
Yes, everyone projects. We wouldn't be able to recognize anyone's experiences if we didn't. It becomes maladaptive when we react to it.
When an NT is angry because someone insulted them, they're really reacting to their resonance with the insult. They're actually reacting to their opinions about themselves and externalizing it. That way, they don't have to look at it and see what they really think.
It occurs to me my brain structure may no longer be NT. Due to tons of works, I don't have an inner narrative or the experience of defensive emotions. In many ways, I think like a psychopath, but I instead of boredom, I experience bliss.
Interesting. So they think that the insult has some teeth, so they have an emotional reaction to their own inner narrative. When someone insults me I find it funny or irrelevant to me. It is a 'them' problem, not a 'me' problem.
I'd say from my experience with meditation and various instructors that you may have achieved a level of "enlightenment" simply by attempting to emulate psychopathy
Cognitive empathy is as important, if not more important than emotional empathy. Cognition that seeks to think about the 'others' perspective and reality is more useful than seeking an emotional 'sameness' which relies on a projection of 'my own experience'. Compassion is not the middle ground between cognitive and emotional empathy - compassion is usually an extension of emotional intelligence based on an individuals feelings and personal identity. Compassion as a genuinely objective, unconditional spaceousness is extremely rare and most people who think they have reached that space are just confirming their preferred sense of identity.
I think that they are both very important for those that have both. Obviously emotional empathy has no value to me, but that is due to an inability to experience it.
Yes, that was my understanding of compassion as well.
Actually I do have a constant emotional storm, though that has got much better over the years, no more BPD. I think that's what's behind my selfishness- not much left to give to people beyond my circle after I have taken care of my own mental self, and a desire to grab all the meaningful enjoyment that I can. So the selfishness of psycopaths is not something I am in any position to judge! I certainly do try to see things as they are and not succumb to intellectual cowardice. Anyway, very much looking forward to your posts and glad you have been on a prolific roll.
Gosh I am not like these people, and dont pretend otherwise. You describe yourself as selfish and I admit I am the same. Treat people decently, do no harm, uphold personal principles, add value to the lives of friends and family, take good care of partner, and that is so far about it for me. My interests and pursuits have not been such as to contribute to the world, the things that give me meaning and purpose are for me and people close who I share with (sharing increases enjoyment multiple for me), and I have had no wish to undertake major humanitarian works. I am however often sincerely and deeply upset by horrible situations and people's suffering. I don't get it really. I guess selfishness and my own voracious desire to seize life for me are stronger.
But at odds with your writing about neurotypicals untapped potential and the amazing selfless things they can do. Just as well not everyone is so self focussed!
Everyone reaches their own potential in their own way I suppose. You have a good way of seeing the world. It is much better than someone that approaches it with a constant emotional storm. Not having that allows you to have a more open mind and see things as they are, not how you perceive them to be.
Thank you for this insightful and provocative post! Provocative to get off our assess and bring some goodness into the world!!
Your post is very timely for me in that, just this afternoon, for about 3 hours, I discussed many of these aspects with my mother in the context of her children as NT - or not so much.
Without your help, I could never had this meaningful convo with my mom.
She undervalues herself and thinks negatively where the rest of us think well of her and admire her basic goodness as a person.
Thank you again for your posts and your kindness and patience in your work.
Rabe used the power he had at his disposal. Unfortunately for him he didn't understand Hitler and his motivations. He truly believed that if he was able to show Hitler what was happening in Nanking, that Hitler would step in and stop it. As it turned out of course, Hitler was just as bad as what was happening, but at the time Rabe didn't know, and that worked in his favor. The Japanese would not cross that emblem, and despite Rabe being incorrect about what Hitler would do, he was correct to wave that emblem beneath their noses to get them to back off.
It is one of the most powerful stories of "one man" I ever heard.
It makes me want to visit Nanking as if his ghost would shield me from any harm they would do to me there. It appears I experience something akin to sentimentality. I'm pretty sure it is a normal "NT" response.
In 1984, I visited Panana. While my friends hung in the penthouses with guards at the door, I went to the ghetto, at the end of the boulevard.
There was a 40 ft huge mural at the entrance- it portrayed the faces of Panamanians murdered by USA military in an attack in 1960. At the edges of the mural, were the American attackers in gas masks as they brutally murdered the smiling happy faces.
When Bush invaded Panama, they landed right there at that mural- blowing it up first from naval vessels offshore.
As much as that mural meant to the locals and as much as they honored me for standing and seeing it, while others huddled behind armed bodyguards, the Americans knew about that mural and just couldn't stand it.
They had to destroy it and they did. Nearly 400 of the poorest people in the country died so America could remove the monument of their brutality.
It appears writing this causes me to feel something also. It appears I can feel "resentment" or loathing of the power of government to lie and steal and kill.
But, I would be remiss to think it stops there. Government are staffed and maintained by people.
These people do exactly what Rabe did: albeit in reverse- They use the power at their disposal.
Unlike Rabe, they cover their motivations and obscure their intentions.
LOL- Thanks again. Even these babblings, which I reworked and rewrote about a dozen times, seem helpful to me. Maybe I can end up doing something helpful for someone else.
develop cognitive empathy to be a complement to their emotional empathy
If you mean a conscious understanding of how to behave morally and ethically, people DO know that they should have helped the woman.
And, they likely did feel empathetic, and all probably assume they are “good people “ but it was overridden by other social factors, even though they needed to likely suppress the cognitive dissonance they were experiencing.
Russian soldiers may take comfort in assuming everyone they kill are literally Nazis.
Obviously they are not, especially the children, cats and dogs.
The conscious understanding of how to behave morally and ethically is called cognitive empathy, but I think Athena includes action in her definition.
One can understand how to act, but choosing to actually act involves another component & I don't know what that other component is called. Some people call it compassion, but the definition of compassion doesn't involve action.
How on earth can they convince themselves of their goodness? I could maybe understand it if they felt too afraid to intervene, but not when they intentionally film it.
Their reasons for filming it could vary. Cool story? Well, that is very indifferent to the woman. Having proof they can share with the world? Well... But I will need to look at the story to get better idea. Being mired in certain environment where things work certain way might play a role too.
I'm not certain you can have empathy for strangers. You can't know what they are thinking or feeling, you can only project what you assume they are thinking and feeling. That isn't empathy, that is seeing their world through your own eyes. I am actually working on a post about this.
What about recognizing very distinct things like screaming in pain or beaming with joy. Picking on vibes during a party as opposed to being left unaffected? The party is tricky bit as merely seeing it can be stimulating and thus fun just as people there are having fun. But I can recall seeing someone experiencing something and feel my own mood shift.
For knowing thoughts and what is going on under surface we definitely need to know people.
But recognizing strong emotion is a bit different deal.
If we go from emotional stance and one is inferring that actual contagion is possible only with those we are bonded with and with others not, well, maybe... BUt with cognitive we never upload other people's content, we only know from experience how they function. And on some fundamentals people function similarly enough that knowing humans is the answer, especially when cause of that state is right in front of my eyes - drowning begging people seem pretty unambiguous to me. Rest of their life stories is for a moment pushed back from immediate experience, I'd say. Outside of that - sure, definitely, don't know a thing about their experience.
I have a question, but it is about your previous article. I am asking here because I didn't think you would check the last comment section. How do you influence just about anybody? Is it about body language, or facial expressions , the right words, or a combination of all these, or something else entirely? I am afraid you might say something very generic , like 'developing cognitive empathy', because while useful , it does not show to me how to practice influence specifically and become good at it.
You could use an example, like convincing a receptionist to upgrade flight tickets from economic to business class without extra cost . I had read this was something Andy Mcnab did for one flight he had with Kevin Dutton in his book 'The Good Psychopath's Guide to Success ', and I was bummed that he did not include the dialogues of the exchange.
I know that they gave them instructions to stay below deck. Theoretically it could have been when they thought they could save the ship. However, several crew abandoned the ship leaving them to die without telling them to come up to the top decks. This would have saved many lives, but the cowards fled. There is much more to the story actually, and the documentary, The Diving Bell, is available on YouTube. It speaks a great deal more about the many failures of the Korean government to enact any reasonable life saving measures.
People's empathy also fails when they cannot relate to a person. If they can be considered an "other" they can be destroyed.
Today’s Personal Lesson in Empathy
I was standing in the grocery line behind an older (rather disheveled looking) gentleman, casually listening to a conversation between him and the cashier. She (the cashier) was supporting him; I could tell they had a close connection.
When it was my turn, I said to her how nice her kindness was towards the gentleman.
Now starts the lesson:
The cashier told me about the gentleman’s background. He is a Veteran with a lot of psychological issues from being in active combat; PTSD etc.
And...
He has a neighbor who is a shut-in and he comes to buy groceries, using his own money, to assist his neighbor. She went on to say he is the most kind and selfless person she has ever met.
~ This experience will never be forgotten.
That is a very cool story. Thank you for sharing it, Eve.
You're welcome. I am honored to have experienced this.
Perhaps what this article misses is that we have a word for the integration of emotional and cognitive empathy - it is called "compassion" where the mirroring of emotions is acted upon with chosen responses to address the situation. Emotions can motivate for good or evil. It is a questions of the beliefs that accompany the emotions. While short term behaviors can be coerced, the beliefs are the drivers of behavior in the long term.
Looking at the definition of compassion it doesn't seem to mean that. Instead it simply means that you feel pity or sympathy for a person. It says nothing about action.
I see that in the English language the meaning space inhabited by compassion leaves the definition which I have from the Old Testament and New Testament use of the word, which is always bound up with the intent to act upon empathy. The biblical world deals with emotions differently than we do in modern western civilization since the enlightenment and 19th century Romanticism, I guess.
This may be one of those situations where our words and usage can be vague. I think of 'compassion' as carrying a suggestion of possible action, and as definitely going beyond just feelings to incorporate some cognitive empathy. I am a sample of one person, though.
Rather than accompanying emotions, I see beliefs as preceding them. Emotions arise from the meaning that we assign to events and meaning arises from belief. That's why trying to control emotions in the moment doesn't work. Changing belief takes time and commitment, but eventually, it changes the emotional landscape.
See the issue is that particular groups are designated as being worthy of emotional empathy while others are deemed as worthy of disgust referring to a previous article.
It has nothing to do with the actual groups though. Rather, it's all self-referential. It's what we believe about ourselves. Things we try to disown, things we don't accept, end up being projected onto other people. That way, we fool ourselves into thinking the way we see the world has nothing to do with us.
People who are happy with themselves deem very few people, if any, worthy of disgust. The corrolary is true too. People who dislike themselves generally find fault with the world. Projection is most people's default defense.
Hm, I wonder if that is why all the isms and phobias simply baffle me.
We live in the world through our inner experience, and without a similar experience, you couldn't make sense of it. So that's my guess.
I've noticed, as my defensive emotions disappeared, certain behaviors stopped making sense on the level of experience. Iow, my emotional memory is shot. Emotional behaviors I used to experience confuse me now. I imagine that's similar to your experience.
Yes, likely it is similar.
Okay that clears some things up for me. I never have issues with myself at all. Back when I first heard about "low self esteem" I thought it was suppose to be some sort of joke. The concept of projection always puzzled me as well.
I can observe that these things actually do occur and seem to be really important to the neurotypical. I'd always assumed some sort of group mind motive for a lot of what I see
I know exactly what you mean.
Yes, everyone projects. We wouldn't be able to recognize anyone's experiences if we didn't. It becomes maladaptive when we react to it.
When an NT is angry because someone insulted them, they're really reacting to their resonance with the insult. They're actually reacting to their opinions about themselves and externalizing it. That way, they don't have to look at it and see what they really think.
It occurs to me my brain structure may no longer be NT. Due to tons of works, I don't have an inner narrative or the experience of defensive emotions. In many ways, I think like a psychopath, but I instead of boredom, I experience bliss.
Interesting. So they think that the insult has some teeth, so they have an emotional reaction to their own inner narrative. When someone insults me I find it funny or irrelevant to me. It is a 'them' problem, not a 'me' problem.
I'd say from my experience with meditation and various instructors that you may have achieved a level of "enlightenment" simply by attempting to emulate psychopathy
Do you have a suspicion or a diagnosis of psychopathy?
Good observation
I have nothing to add to this except to deeply thank you for writing it.
Thank you for reading it, Søren
Cognitive empathy is as important, if not more important than emotional empathy. Cognition that seeks to think about the 'others' perspective and reality is more useful than seeking an emotional 'sameness' which relies on a projection of 'my own experience'. Compassion is not the middle ground between cognitive and emotional empathy - compassion is usually an extension of emotional intelligence based on an individuals feelings and personal identity. Compassion as a genuinely objective, unconditional spaceousness is extremely rare and most people who think they have reached that space are just confirming their preferred sense of identity.
Great description of compassion.
I think that they are both very important for those that have both. Obviously emotional empathy has no value to me, but that is due to an inability to experience it.
Yes, that was my understanding of compassion as well.
I was moved to tears while reading this. Another one was Oscar Schindler.
Yes, he was quite awesome.
Actually I do have a constant emotional storm, though that has got much better over the years, no more BPD. I think that's what's behind my selfishness- not much left to give to people beyond my circle after I have taken care of my own mental self, and a desire to grab all the meaningful enjoyment that I can. So the selfishness of psycopaths is not something I am in any position to judge! I certainly do try to see things as they are and not succumb to intellectual cowardice. Anyway, very much looking forward to your posts and glad you have been on a prolific roll.
Overcoming BPD is amazing. Congrats on that.
Gosh I am not like these people, and dont pretend otherwise. You describe yourself as selfish and I admit I am the same. Treat people decently, do no harm, uphold personal principles, add value to the lives of friends and family, take good care of partner, and that is so far about it for me. My interests and pursuits have not been such as to contribute to the world, the things that give me meaning and purpose are for me and people close who I share with (sharing increases enjoyment multiple for me), and I have had no wish to undertake major humanitarian works. I am however often sincerely and deeply upset by horrible situations and people's suffering. I don't get it really. I guess selfishness and my own voracious desire to seize life for me are stronger.
Sounds like a good way to live.
But at odds with your writing about neurotypicals untapped potential and the amazing selfless things they can do. Just as well not everyone is so self focussed!
Everyone reaches their own potential in their own way I suppose. You have a good way of seeing the world. It is much better than someone that approaches it with a constant emotional storm. Not having that allows you to have a more open mind and see things as they are, not how you perceive them to be.
Have you watched the film 'Tomorrowland-A World Beyond '?
It doesn't sound familiar to me, so I don't think so. Why?
It was about your pen name. Ever since I saw it, I felt it could be the place of inspiration for it. It was a trifle thought.
This isn't a pen name. It is actually my name.
Really? I was under the impression that you were seeking to keep your identity a secret .
There are many Athena Walkers in the world
True.
Athena,
I really appreciate this article. Cognitive empathy with a dash of emotional is a perfect recipe.
Will comment more, need to sleep.
Thank you for this insightful and provocative post! Provocative to get off our assess and bring some goodness into the world!!
Your post is very timely for me in that, just this afternoon, for about 3 hours, I discussed many of these aspects with my mother in the context of her children as NT - or not so much.
Without your help, I could never had this meaningful convo with my mom.
She undervalues herself and thinks negatively where the rest of us think well of her and admire her basic goodness as a person.
Thank you again for your posts and your kindness and patience in your work.
That's awesome Tim. I'm glad that you were able to use it for that conversation.
If John Rabe used Nazi flags and armbands, to save hundreds? We got to do more!! haha. Thanks again for your work and help for me.
Rabe used the power he had at his disposal. Unfortunately for him he didn't understand Hitler and his motivations. He truly believed that if he was able to show Hitler what was happening in Nanking, that Hitler would step in and stop it. As it turned out of course, Hitler was just as bad as what was happening, but at the time Rabe didn't know, and that worked in his favor. The Japanese would not cross that emblem, and despite Rabe being incorrect about what Hitler would do, he was correct to wave that emblem beneath their noses to get them to back off.
It is one of the most powerful stories of "one man" I ever heard.
It makes me want to visit Nanking as if his ghost would shield me from any harm they would do to me there. It appears I experience something akin to sentimentality. I'm pretty sure it is a normal "NT" response.
In 1984, I visited Panana. While my friends hung in the penthouses with guards at the door, I went to the ghetto, at the end of the boulevard.
There was a 40 ft huge mural at the entrance- it portrayed the faces of Panamanians murdered by USA military in an attack in 1960. At the edges of the mural, were the American attackers in gas masks as they brutally murdered the smiling happy faces.
When Bush invaded Panama, they landed right there at that mural- blowing it up first from naval vessels offshore.
As much as that mural meant to the locals and as much as they honored me for standing and seeing it, while others huddled behind armed bodyguards, the Americans knew about that mural and just couldn't stand it.
They had to destroy it and they did. Nearly 400 of the poorest people in the country died so America could remove the monument of their brutality.
It appears writing this causes me to feel something also. It appears I can feel "resentment" or loathing of the power of government to lie and steal and kill.
But, I would be remiss to think it stops there. Government are staffed and maintained by people.
These people do exactly what Rabe did: albeit in reverse- They use the power at their disposal.
Unlike Rabe, they cover their motivations and obscure their intentions.
LOL- Thanks again. Even these babblings, which I reworked and rewrote about a dozen times, seem helpful to me. Maybe I can end up doing something helpful for someone else.
I am sure that you will
develop cognitive empathy to be a complement to their emotional empathy
If you mean a conscious understanding of how to behave morally and ethically, people DO know that they should have helped the woman.
And, they likely did feel empathetic, and all probably assume they are “good people “ but it was overridden by other social factors, even though they needed to likely suppress the cognitive dissonance they were experiencing.
Russian soldiers may take comfort in assuming everyone they kill are literally Nazis.
Obviously they are not, especially the children, cats and dogs.
The conscious understanding of how to behave morally and ethically is called cognitive empathy, but I think Athena includes action in her definition.
One can understand how to act, but choosing to actually act involves another component & I don't know what that other component is called. Some people call it compassion, but the definition of compassion doesn't involve action.
How on earth can they convince themselves of their goodness? I could maybe understand it if they felt too afraid to intervene, but not when they intentionally film it.
Their reasons for filming it could vary. Cool story? Well, that is very indifferent to the woman. Having proof they can share with the world? Well... But I will need to look at the story to get better idea. Being mired in certain environment where things work certain way might play a role too.
Or, empathy is not in human nature for strangers. It fires for people that particular human is invested in.
Not sure if zero empathy for strangers, but certainly less than for those in whom one is invested.
I'm not certain you can have empathy for strangers. You can't know what they are thinking or feeling, you can only project what you assume they are thinking and feeling. That isn't empathy, that is seeing their world through your own eyes. I am actually working on a post about this.
What about recognizing very distinct things like screaming in pain or beaming with joy. Picking on vibes during a party as opposed to being left unaffected? The party is tricky bit as merely seeing it can be stimulating and thus fun just as people there are having fun. But I can recall seeing someone experiencing something and feel my own mood shift.
For knowing thoughts and what is going on under surface we definitely need to know people.
But recognizing strong emotion is a bit different deal.
If we go from emotional stance and one is inferring that actual contagion is possible only with those we are bonded with and with others not, well, maybe... BUt with cognitive we never upload other people's content, we only know from experience how they function. And on some fundamentals people function similarly enough that knowing humans is the answer, especially when cause of that state is right in front of my eyes - drowning begging people seem pretty unambiguous to me. Rest of their life stories is for a moment pushed back from immediate experience, I'd say. Outside of that - sure, definitely, don't know a thing about their experience.
Looking forward to the post.
I have a question, but it is about your previous article. I am asking here because I didn't think you would check the last comment section. How do you influence just about anybody? Is it about body language, or facial expressions , the right words, or a combination of all these, or something else entirely? I am afraid you might say something very generic , like 'developing cognitive empathy', because while useful , it does not show to me how to practice influence specifically and become good at it.
You could use an example, like convincing a receptionist to upgrade flight tickets from economic to business class without extra cost . I had read this was something Andy Mcnab did for one flight he had with Kevin Dutton in his book 'The Good Psychopath's Guide to Success ', and I was bummed that he did not include the dialogues of the exchange.
My guess is that the dialogue wouldn't help. It's tone of voice, confidence, and other things that would not come through in writing.
This is true. That helps a great deal.
Study NLP
I actually wrote about that sort of thing here:
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/treat-me-well-and-i-will-treat-you?s=w
with examples on how to do it.
I know that they gave them instructions to stay below deck. Theoretically it could have been when they thought they could save the ship. However, several crew abandoned the ship leaving them to die without telling them to come up to the top decks. This would have saved many lives, but the cowards fled. There is much more to the story actually, and the documentary, The Diving Bell, is available on YouTube. It speaks a great deal more about the many failures of the Korean government to enact any reasonable life saving measures.
People's empathy also fails when they cannot relate to a person. If they can be considered an "other" they can be destroyed.
It certainly can be quite problematic.