I like this new format. I like that you are writing about what you want to write about. I am hoping to hear some stories about your days as a magicians assistant or any damn thing you would like to share with us. I am positive that not only are you a gold mine of interesting experiences but your journey and your perception of the world is unique and important.
I like the title, Eye of the Storm. It is a phrase I am well familiar with and the imagery and meaning are clearly in my mind as my late husband’s first book of photographs is titled exactly that. He too stood in that quiet place observing, recording and stopping time so the viewer can pause to consider the world through a different lense and perhaps take away something meaningful.
It is exquisitely beautifully perfect that you have chosen this phrase to represent the place you stand. ♥️ Elizabeth
Well that was an education for me. I've always hated manipulation, I've almost always seen through it. I guess I'm doing it wrong which explains a lot. If you want me to help you with something just ask, same for every thing else. I am far more likely to do something or give something if asked directly, than if you try that game playing stuff. It always makes me feel like you don't think I'm smart enough to see what you're doing, so my reaction is to feel insulted and not do it . But that's just me, maybe I should play, as much as I hate to, it may be helpful. Hmmm.
Overt emotional manipulation is pretty obvious, and can see why you might take it as insulting. There is a way to make it less so if you add in cute features to it. If you're adorable, and make it obvious that is what you are doing, people are more willing to be manipulated that way. Mostly because people like cuteness, but largely because it is very loudly stated that it isn't meant to be serious.
This works well for some people, but is not something I suggest in general, because it can come across as sort of creepy if cuteness is not attained.
Regarding the ethics of manipulation and your thoughts about choosing to be intentionally manipulative.
The predominant social contract that we find ourselves in, maintains that taking a straight shooter approach creates trust relationships, and through trust relationships we achieve more collectively then as an individual.
However, when the ideal meets the real we find ourselves in a ticket or situation as well taking the highroad can be disastrous.
A prince, that wishes to be good all of the time, will inevitably come to ruin by those that are not good, therefore a prince must know when to be good and not good as necessity requires.
Well I've been told I'm pretty, but I don't think I can pull off cuteness I've never been a girly girl. But thanks I'll think of something. I can pull off the puppy dog eyes, but that's about it. I'm just not good at fake but I'll practice and see how it goes. Lol
On another note, my roommate has his BA in psychology and is constantly trying to manipulate me into doing stuff for him and he tries to influence my decision making as well. He thinks he's smarter than I am, he's not, it's really irritating. Maybe if I do it back enough hell try something else. I'm going to try your way on him and see if it helps. I can play games too,I just don't like to.It's been my experience that the same happens when I see my psychologist, I'll have to step back and watch, put my irritation aside and see what happens .
btw love the post.i enjoy learning new things so thank you.
Something about a lot of people that study psychology... they are a lot like those people that watch some celebrity chef on a television show, and suddenly think that they know how to cook.
Quite true. Humans are engaged in a game of assumption. Interaction is based on it, and when those assumptions break down, it is war. We trade on assumptions, so we do not trade in blood instead.
A psychopath and I arguably had the misfortune of being in a long-term professional relationship with put it this way-
“ I see myself as a great spider sitting on a mountain top, watching the ants below scurrying about, unconsciously, with no awareness of the intricate webs that I weave for them”
He held a pure predator prey, long game vs short game relationship to everything and everyone.
Fantastic. I agree with you, beside from the point of emotional manipulation vs greed:
simply because my resources seldom are such that I can enrichen someone.
If I can, I chose that path. Otherwise, it's emotional manipulation over a long time. And before I begin I check my i's and cross my t's to make sure the person will not find out, which means; they won't notice they've been played, and should they against my careful planning notice what's going on, I already have someone that the breadcrumbs lead to - and it's not Sweet Sarah down the block.
I mean, I do agree that greed is a safer card, but emotional can work very well if planned.
I still find that the easiest way though, with 98% of people I've encountered, is inflating their ego. I'm yet to meet someone who doesn't get a kick out of feeling smart.
It is time that people understand that manipulation is part of life, and the only time that it is seen in a negative light is when they lose the game. Play better, don't lose, and instead come to a draw, and it's fine. Hand someone else all your chips and expect them to play nice is never going to turn out well.
Exactly. You nailed it perfectly. As it is right now, you can't really talk to anyone (at least I can't) because it is so poorly received. Most people seem pretty terrified to be manipulated too, I think that might make them shun it so much.
They can shun it all they would like to, but it doesn't change the fact that they participate in it with every interaction, and it is their very own lifeblood of getting what they need out of others. It would be far less complicated if people were bluntly honest with themselves.
You've given a whole new perspective on fallout and greed, something that I've never even considered before. It's almost like being enlightened.
"Thus closing off many other possible valuable interactions." Focusing more on the long term goal and lifetime value rather than just taking advantage of someone once and dipping.
If I'm after finding a sexual partner that will also clean my house, cook etc. Wouldn't offering something material make it sound like I see her as a whore? I see how trying to 'conquer' her isn't really my style because it's too much emotional investment and while I like her to be honest it could be any other woman that has a decent personality and is attractive.
I have frequently been able to see WHEN someone is trying to manipulate me but never been good with the WHY. I don't understand what people gain. I am obviously easily taken advantage of. I feel if people were just blunt and asked for what they wanted then life would be a lot easier for everyone. In previous relationships I have learnt to remind them that when they need something to ask directly, for example attention and emotional needs like hugs.
You said in the first part that for a good exchange you would need to want what they have to give. Can you please give me some examples of what you would want? Not including possessions like money or power like status. What could you possibly want?
sex, money, attention, flattery, love, professional success, a home and a family of your own...whatever your hidden wants are, the manipulator finds a way to look like they have/are the solution
I assure you I wasn't. This is a situation I have been in more than once before in my offline life. I specifically had 2 men in mind who I suspect to have been covert narcissist's (although being no doctor I can't know). One of them I could walk away from at least reasonably easily. The other I couldn't as not only was I forced to work with him but it was a job I didn't have the luxury of being able to give up without it very negatively impacting on my employment record. I hoped to get better ideas on ways of handling such people in future (without just relying on things like avoidance, telling third parties or communication approaches that just don't work with this kind of person).
Wasn't attempting to have a discussion with you. Just offering my explanation for why I asked Athena what I did. It's up to you if you accept it or not.
Out of curiosity, how do you ‘manipulate’ people? I can see how emotional manipulation works, say someone gets sad, and the other person tries do do something about it. But I just can’t see how it works without the emotional side of it. Could you give some real examples?
I use greed. Everyone has something that they want. Be the person that can provide that thing, provided that it doesn't cost you too much, and they are far more agreeable when it comes to getting you what you want.
Nice post Athena. Just in case you didn't notice it already and given that I know you used to appreciate the suggested edits feature in Quora, I'll point out that you probably made a slight mistake in the fifth paragraph when you said "will" instead of "with" in the phrase "If they are manipulating you will affection, affection will work".
As an unrelated question, have you read Dale Carnegie's book "How to Win Friends and Influence People"? If so, what do you think of it?
This is very interesting. It covers both defense and offense positions. It's hard to remove the emotional attachment since that's how we see everything. Removing emotions clears up space for critical thinking.
I've read all your posts on Quora which are always on point.
Excellent post! So many thought to process. I'll have to reread it several times to absorb it (Spaced repetition?). Thank you very much for so much valuable information!
Thank you Athena, I needed to hear this.
I like this new format. I like that you are writing about what you want to write about. I am hoping to hear some stories about your days as a magicians assistant or any damn thing you would like to share with us. I am positive that not only are you a gold mine of interesting experiences but your journey and your perception of the world is unique and important.
I like the title, Eye of the Storm. It is a phrase I am well familiar with and the imagery and meaning are clearly in my mind as my late husband’s first book of photographs is titled exactly that. He too stood in that quiet place observing, recording and stopping time so the viewer can pause to consider the world through a different lense and perhaps take away something meaningful.
It is exquisitely beautifully perfect that you have chosen this phrase to represent the place you stand. ♥️ Elizabeth
Glad to see you over here Elizabeth
Well that was an education for me. I've always hated manipulation, I've almost always seen through it. I guess I'm doing it wrong which explains a lot. If you want me to help you with something just ask, same for every thing else. I am far more likely to do something or give something if asked directly, than if you try that game playing stuff. It always makes me feel like you don't think I'm smart enough to see what you're doing, so my reaction is to feel insulted and not do it . But that's just me, maybe I should play, as much as I hate to, it may be helpful. Hmmm.
Overt emotional manipulation is pretty obvious, and can see why you might take it as insulting. There is a way to make it less so if you add in cute features to it. If you're adorable, and make it obvious that is what you are doing, people are more willing to be manipulated that way. Mostly because people like cuteness, but largely because it is very loudly stated that it isn't meant to be serious.
This works well for some people, but is not something I suggest in general, because it can come across as sort of creepy if cuteness is not attained.
In short, study house cats
Yup, sounds like a house cat, lol
Regarding the ethics of manipulation and your thoughts about choosing to be intentionally manipulative.
The predominant social contract that we find ourselves in, maintains that taking a straight shooter approach creates trust relationships, and through trust relationships we achieve more collectively then as an individual.
However, when the ideal meets the real we find ourselves in a ticket or situation as well taking the highroad can be disastrous.
A prince, that wishes to be good all of the time, will inevitably come to ruin by those that are not good, therefore a prince must know when to be good and not good as necessity requires.
Makaveli paraphrased
Well I've been told I'm pretty, but I don't think I can pull off cuteness I've never been a girly girl. But thanks I'll think of something. I can pull off the puppy dog eyes, but that's about it. I'm just not good at fake but I'll practice and see how it goes. Lol
On another note, my roommate has his BA in psychology and is constantly trying to manipulate me into doing stuff for him and he tries to influence my decision making as well. He thinks he's smarter than I am, he's not, it's really irritating. Maybe if I do it back enough hell try something else. I'm going to try your way on him and see if it helps. I can play games too,I just don't like to.It's been my experience that the same happens when I see my psychologist, I'll have to step back and watch, put my irritation aside and see what happens .
btw love the post.i enjoy learning new things so thank you.
Something about a lot of people that study psychology... they are a lot like those people that watch some celebrity chef on a television show, and suddenly think that they know how to cook.
Lol, yup like that.
Can only too well believe that on your psychologist. Some will have their own agenda and won’t have your best interests at heart. Be careful.
All the above, of course
And, have an insight as to how to leverage your talent stack to make easy money, legally and quasi ethically.
Regarding “Keep your emotions at bay, and watch it like you would watch someone making a move on a chess board”
This is how I, with non Methylated oxytocin receiptors do it.
Realize that no one actually experiences you directly, they only experience a model of you in there minds
The literally, objectively cannot have an opinion of you, only the lossy compression model.
They cannot love or hate you, only the model in their minds.
The map is not the territory, don’t eat the menu.
Quite true. Humans are engaged in a game of assumption. Interaction is based on it, and when those assumptions break down, it is war. We trade on assumptions, so we do not trade in blood instead.
It makes for kinder interactions anyway.
A psychopath and I arguably had the misfortune of being in a long-term professional relationship with put it this way-
“ I see myself as a great spider sitting on a mountain top, watching the ants below scurrying about, unconsciously, with no awareness of the intricate webs that I weave for them”
He held a pure predator prey, long game vs short game relationship to everything and everyone.
Fantastic. I agree with you, beside from the point of emotional manipulation vs greed:
simply because my resources seldom are such that I can enrichen someone.
If I can, I chose that path. Otherwise, it's emotional manipulation over a long time. And before I begin I check my i's and cross my t's to make sure the person will not find out, which means; they won't notice they've been played, and should they against my careful planning notice what's going on, I already have someone that the breadcrumbs lead to - and it's not Sweet Sarah down the block.
I mean, I do agree that greed is a safer card, but emotional can work very well if planned.
I still find that the easiest way though, with 98% of people I've encountered, is inflating their ego. I'm yet to meet someone who doesn't get a kick out of feeling smart.
And it's really easy to dumb down.
Ego tends to be a very good in with people. It is so strange to me that people are so affected by ego strokes, but it is a very useful tactic.
It puzzles me.
I really like that you put manipulation in another light than just a malevolent tool.
It is time that people understand that manipulation is part of life, and the only time that it is seen in a negative light is when they lose the game. Play better, don't lose, and instead come to a draw, and it's fine. Hand someone else all your chips and expect them to play nice is never going to turn out well.
Exactly. You nailed it perfectly. As it is right now, you can't really talk to anyone (at least I can't) because it is so poorly received. Most people seem pretty terrified to be manipulated too, I think that might make them shun it so much.
They can shun it all they would like to, but it doesn't change the fact that they participate in it with every interaction, and it is their very own lifeblood of getting what they need out of others. It would be far less complicated if people were bluntly honest with themselves.
When people feeling abreaction towards manipulation, it may be because-
He conflicts with their self image, they don’t know their own shadow.
It conflicts with her model of a fair world, naivety
They want you to drop your guard , Play you for a chump
Conflict of idealism, people should be straight shooters all of the time because that is moral.
A Complete misunderstanding of what influence is
Ask a hypnotherapist some time if manipulation is a part of life, if you want to make him laugh.
It is a necessary component of living. Those that tell you otherwise, want you to put more on the table than you are willing to give.
You've given a whole new perspective on fallout and greed, something that I've never even considered before. It's almost like being enlightened.
"Thus closing off many other possible valuable interactions." Focusing more on the long term goal and lifetime value rather than just taking advantage of someone once and dipping.
I'm glad it is useful to you, Aswald
By greed do you mean things money can buy?
If I'm after finding a sexual partner that will also clean my house, cook etc. Wouldn't offering something material make it sound like I see her as a whore? I see how trying to 'conquer' her isn't really my style because it's too much emotional investment and while I like her to be honest it could be any other woman that has a decent personality and is attractive.
No, not money. Whatever their currency is. It's different for each person.
I have frequently been able to see WHEN someone is trying to manipulate me but never been good with the WHY. I don't understand what people gain. I am obviously easily taken advantage of. I feel if people were just blunt and asked for what they wanted then life would be a lot easier for everyone. In previous relationships I have learnt to remind them that when they need something to ask directly, for example attention and emotional needs like hugs.
You said in the first part that for a good exchange you would need to want what they have to give. Can you please give me some examples of what you would want? Not including possessions like money or power like status. What could you possibly want?
Good food, novel experiences, entertaining stories, new information
sex, money, attention, flattery, love, professional success, a home and a family of your own...whatever your hidden wants are, the manipulator finds a way to look like they have/are the solution
That is very true
How would you handle things if you met a mentally unstable untrustworthy potentially dangerous person who made it obvious sex was their currency?
Not deal with them. Mentally unstable and untrustworthy, with the potential for violence? It's hard to see an upside there.
Is Emma flirting with you here?
Not in my estimation, no.
I assure you I wasn't. This is a situation I have been in more than once before in my offline life. I specifically had 2 men in mind who I suspect to have been covert narcissist's (although being no doctor I can't know). One of them I could walk away from at least reasonably easily. The other I couldn't as not only was I forced to work with him but it was a job I didn't have the luxury of being able to give up without it very negatively impacting on my employment record. I hoped to get better ideas on ways of handling such people in future (without just relying on things like avoidance, telling third parties or communication approaches that just don't work with this kind of person).
Dovetailing with this discussion, every successful pick up artist I have ever studied, have been very high narcissism
Wasn't attempting to have a discussion with you. Just offering my explanation for why I asked Athena what I did. It's up to you if you accept it or not.
That may be true, but not Emma's style. She is not at all narcissistic.
When you say"stuff" are you taking about material things?
Stuff can mean anything from an experience, to physical items, to information. Pretty much it covers anything of value.
Ok got it, thank you
Out of curiosity, how do you ‘manipulate’ people? I can see how emotional manipulation works, say someone gets sad, and the other person tries do do something about it. But I just can’t see how it works without the emotional side of it. Could you give some real examples?
By the way, great blog!
I use greed. Everyone has something that they want. Be the person that can provide that thing, provided that it doesn't cost you too much, and they are far more agreeable when it comes to getting you what you want.
Nice post Athena. Just in case you didn't notice it already and given that I know you used to appreciate the suggested edits feature in Quora, I'll point out that you probably made a slight mistake in the fifth paragraph when you said "will" instead of "with" in the phrase "If they are manipulating you will affection, affection will work".
As an unrelated question, have you read Dale Carnegie's book "How to Win Friends and Influence People"? If so, what do you think of it?
Thank you for the edit, I will find it and correct it immediately.
I haven't read the book, but am aware of it. Perhaps I should give it a read, I get asked about it a lot.
This is very interesting. It covers both defense and offense positions. It's hard to remove the emotional attachment since that's how we see everything. Removing emotions clears up space for critical thinking.
I've read all your posts on Quora which are always on point.
Thank you for reading what I write, and following me over here to Substack, Shaheen.
Excellent post! So many thought to process. I'll have to reread it several times to absorb it (Spaced repetition?). Thank you very much for so much valuable information!
Thank you, Claudia
This is phrased perfectly. I like how you sectioned out the information.
I am glad you enjoyed it