Hi Athena, I'd like it if you could share the Jeremy Vines story. That should be interesting.
I think we need to challenge American psychiatry as a whole, including its classification of psychopathy. I suspect that there are many more nonviolent, noncriminal "psychopaths" out there who chose not to get diagnosed and simply learned to function in society. Psychiatrists are clouded by moralistic judgements and personal bias. I also suspect psychopathy is not uncommon amongst psychiatrists. For me, it's a fight against the fundamental assumptions made by western society when dealing with deviance. Are they simply attempting to punsih those who can't be brainwashed by culture and society? In the end, psychiatry is another form of social control.
Not a comment about your recent article, directly at least, but wanted to let you know that I shared it and recommended your writing on my FB profile. “ If anyone is interested in reading about psychopathy, antisocial behaviour or non-neurotypical brains, how to think/read critically or how to evaluate yourself and your behaviours without so much “emotion”, I highly recommend this writer/blogger. Very careful, thoughtful writing, with proofs (and yes, she is a psychopath). The discourse is intelligent. I respect her a great deal.”
It’s all true. And your article points out very obvious flaws with studies that many would not pick up on. You are doing a noble thing, which I know is a bit of a side-effect as your intent is not quite that, yet there it is.
I hope you do write that book. Your points about how poorly written and constructed research papers are these days is an important topic.
When I was in university, psychopathy was the popular topic, and I did my undergrad thesis on it. It was a survey of the students using the SRP III. I divided the students by major program, hoping to find something interesting about the business students. I didn't. They're not.
But later on I floated the idea of a community sample and found no interest on any level.
At best, people will tolerate another estimate of prevalence. There was an Australian study like that, but it used the SRP II, which had some issues. Nobody, to my knowledge, wants a deeper dive into what sectors of the population a psychopath would thrive in.
Anyway, I think you are on to something about the popular ideas about psychopathy, and I would wonder about what is being hidden, or distracted from, by the focus on those faulty ideas.
Jan 13, 2022·edited Jan 13, 2022Liked by Athena Walker
Hi, Athena. The nutshell of your argument is that the study of Psychopathy is unscientific (pseudoscientific?), and you make a strong case for that. Now I'd like to add some context, and I hope I'm not talking about something you already describe...
The study of personality disorders is inherently difficult. For example people with NPD leave a trail of destruction in their wake, and while it is comment for their victims to seek psychotherapy, sufferers of NPD themselves do not seek psychotherapy unless in rare cases they suffer losses significant enough to cause them to want to address their problems. Most, for their part, live by gaslighting and living in a fantasy world of their own making.
As for Psychopaths, it is less clear to me how many of them would seek help. I would suppose it is because of their problems (or their own perceived lack of them) that perhaps even fewer would seek an opportunity where they could be helped, studied or described, except in situations where they are in captivity. But as you point out the samples used, clearly show comorbidities which will be difficult to tease out. How many NFL veterans are psychopaths, for example? Purely statistically speaking, some of them must be (unless the data from which the statistics are derived itself is faulty).
This presents a problem. How do you study a group that sees no reason to be studied, especially if their behavior and thinking processes cause them to resist proper study, (like you did in your youth)? I covet a response from you that could help, regardless of whether you find my question offensive or not, for the sake of having a better understanding of how I can reach and help those in my ministry who I discover having various cluster B tendencies...let alone make the whole discipline make progress in the interest of those who suffer from the consequences of such personality disorders.
Well thank heavens you continue, and that you point out the mess that is research at the moment and have the acumen to assess it from a technical point of view. I imagine all of us followers feel pretty fortunate, and trust your viewpoint, because your work hangs together totally and has done so for years. I think and hope that with a bit of thought, neurotypicals can understand psychopathy at least somewhat, on the basis that it's easier to understand an absence of something than a presence of that which one has never felt. Just because it is my way, I have spent much time (in the early insomnia hours) turning over your descriptions of how life feels to you, and I genuinely think that I have got my head around most of it, because there really REALLY are parallels and comparable situations and conditions in neurotypical experience, if they open up and look for them, particularly for those of us who are a bit 'loopy'. With a bit of effort, I can find times when I have felt all the things you describe as your normal. I do not think I am deluded, just someone who experiences a wild ride of a mindscape. For no good reason, that means a lot to me. My life has had a big emphasis on connectedness and understanding. My trying to know the whole world is partly about establishing a kinship everyone in it. And as a bit of an outsider myself, I feel the importance of that acutely.
I've already said I feel that the study of psycopathy should be far more scientific and less psychology. Although both are needed, the study you referred to is just so bad, I have no idea how it could even be considered.
I do see to that funding could be an issue to getting this done the right way.
I would think that something as rare as psycopathy is, it must hard to get funding for a good study .
Also finding enough people to do a study could be challenging.
I agree that we are a long way of from changing people's view of psycopathy as well.
It would be good if someone could have a well thought out plan to get the ball rolling.
I think you do a great job of correcting the misinformation out there and hopefully your book will bring a larger audience to the table, maybe even people that are able to start on the road to real change .
Hi Athena, I'd like it if you could share the Jeremy Vines story. That should be interesting.
I think we need to challenge American psychiatry as a whole, including its classification of psychopathy. I suspect that there are many more nonviolent, noncriminal "psychopaths" out there who chose not to get diagnosed and simply learned to function in society. Psychiatrists are clouded by moralistic judgements and personal bias. I also suspect psychopathy is not uncommon amongst psychiatrists. For me, it's a fight against the fundamental assumptions made by western society when dealing with deviance. Are they simply attempting to punsih those who can't be brainwashed by culture and society? In the end, psychiatry is another form of social control.
Not a comment about your recent article, directly at least, but wanted to let you know that I shared it and recommended your writing on my FB profile. “ If anyone is interested in reading about psychopathy, antisocial behaviour or non-neurotypical brains, how to think/read critically or how to evaluate yourself and your behaviours without so much “emotion”, I highly recommend this writer/blogger. Very careful, thoughtful writing, with proofs (and yes, she is a psychopath). The discourse is intelligent. I respect her a great deal.”
It’s all true. And your article points out very obvious flaws with studies that many would not pick up on. You are doing a noble thing, which I know is a bit of a side-effect as your intent is not quite that, yet there it is.
I hope you do write that book. Your points about how poorly written and constructed research papers are these days is an important topic.
When I was in university, psychopathy was the popular topic, and I did my undergrad thesis on it. It was a survey of the students using the SRP III. I divided the students by major program, hoping to find something interesting about the business students. I didn't. They're not.
But later on I floated the idea of a community sample and found no interest on any level.
At best, people will tolerate another estimate of prevalence. There was an Australian study like that, but it used the SRP II, which had some issues. Nobody, to my knowledge, wants a deeper dive into what sectors of the population a psychopath would thrive in.
Anyway, I think you are on to something about the popular ideas about psychopathy, and I would wonder about what is being hidden, or distracted from, by the focus on those faulty ideas.
Hi, Athena. The nutshell of your argument is that the study of Psychopathy is unscientific (pseudoscientific?), and you make a strong case for that. Now I'd like to add some context, and I hope I'm not talking about something you already describe...
The study of personality disorders is inherently difficult. For example people with NPD leave a trail of destruction in their wake, and while it is comment for their victims to seek psychotherapy, sufferers of NPD themselves do not seek psychotherapy unless in rare cases they suffer losses significant enough to cause them to want to address their problems. Most, for their part, live by gaslighting and living in a fantasy world of their own making.
As for Psychopaths, it is less clear to me how many of them would seek help. I would suppose it is because of their problems (or their own perceived lack of them) that perhaps even fewer would seek an opportunity where they could be helped, studied or described, except in situations where they are in captivity. But as you point out the samples used, clearly show comorbidities which will be difficult to tease out. How many NFL veterans are psychopaths, for example? Purely statistically speaking, some of them must be (unless the data from which the statistics are derived itself is faulty).
This presents a problem. How do you study a group that sees no reason to be studied, especially if their behavior and thinking processes cause them to resist proper study, (like you did in your youth)? I covet a response from you that could help, regardless of whether you find my question offensive or not, for the sake of having a better understanding of how I can reach and help those in my ministry who I discover having various cluster B tendencies...let alone make the whole discipline make progress in the interest of those who suffer from the consequences of such personality disorders.
Well thank heavens you continue, and that you point out the mess that is research at the moment and have the acumen to assess it from a technical point of view. I imagine all of us followers feel pretty fortunate, and trust your viewpoint, because your work hangs together totally and has done so for years. I think and hope that with a bit of thought, neurotypicals can understand psychopathy at least somewhat, on the basis that it's easier to understand an absence of something than a presence of that which one has never felt. Just because it is my way, I have spent much time (in the early insomnia hours) turning over your descriptions of how life feels to you, and I genuinely think that I have got my head around most of it, because there really REALLY are parallels and comparable situations and conditions in neurotypical experience, if they open up and look for them, particularly for those of us who are a bit 'loopy'. With a bit of effort, I can find times when I have felt all the things you describe as your normal. I do not think I am deluded, just someone who experiences a wild ride of a mindscape. For no good reason, that means a lot to me. My life has had a big emphasis on connectedness and understanding. My trying to know the whole world is partly about establishing a kinship everyone in it. And as a bit of an outsider myself, I feel the importance of that acutely.
Very well written and thought out.
I've already said I feel that the study of psycopathy should be far more scientific and less psychology. Although both are needed, the study you referred to is just so bad, I have no idea how it could even be considered.
I do see to that funding could be an issue to getting this done the right way.
I would think that something as rare as psycopathy is, it must hard to get funding for a good study .
Also finding enough people to do a study could be challenging.
I agree that we are a long way of from changing people's view of psycopathy as well.
It would be good if someone could have a well thought out plan to get the ball rolling.
I think you do a great job of correcting the misinformation out there and hopefully your book will bring a larger audience to the table, maybe even people that are able to start on the road to real change .
First impression
Reading that Toxy section, it does not have the tone or meter of a psychopath.
More of an MNPD, or faux psychopath to garner negative attention.
Agreed