Can you draw a factitious clock with numbers or a three dimensional cube (i.e. draw numbers in right order and in the right places, for example)?
I wonder because it seems to me that what that neurologist hypothesized you had was constructional apraxia.
If you cannot draw what I mentioned above, them it’s likely it and there isn’t really anything you can do about it. If you can, as shittily as possible, but still non-apraxicay, then it’s likely not apraxia and you can learn to draw.
I can relate to your comment about tracing, partially. I can draw but my ability to draw varies greatly day by day.
I can visualize things very well. I noticed that when I am drawing what I am doing is seeing the image I want to draw in my mind, tracing it mentally and physically. I liked your phrase about “translating it to your hand”, for me it’s likely Hans is synchronized with something that I trace images with in my mind. Sometimes the connection between this something and my hand breaches and when it happens, while I will still be able to see the image, I will not be able to figure out how to draw it, like from a reference, not tracing it, at all, I won’t even know where to start. I tried repeating the movements I did drawing the same thing before, but without being able to trace it, I just won’t be able to get the result I want, it will look (very bad) and different from the original image.
My handwriting works kind of the same way, though not really the same way.
It was unreadable when I was young and it took me a decade to change it, but my current handwriting is pretty. Contrary to drawing, with handwriting breaches happen very rarely, but they happen.
I just googled, as far as I understood different parts of the brain are responsible for drawing and for handwriting.
I think so much applies to people with all sorts of differences too... Speaking as a math major, autistic, etc. ... I use my math and modeling abilities to try to understand NTs and many other things, and never realized just how different they were though I thought of their thinking as having a different "shape"...
NTs brought up in different cultures have to do somewhat similar stuff to "pass". Realizing their differences takes them work too (It is not always identititarian if I got that word right) . There are writings on that because, well, NTs are the majority.
Well this is interesting alright and I would like to know more about the ways NTs put things together, ask questions etc as you say, that make no sense to you. That cognitive, rather than emotional things make no sense to you is something I would like to understand better (though Maths, yeah, I can't grasp it either). Learning to do the BioShock hacks was persistent practice, but I'd l' m curious about things that you just habitually do the long way round, according to those who know you. Perhaps you can write more in future posts.
Drawing aside, I wonder how much is psychopathy and how much is just individual brains. Here's a little-known maxim- "A Swiss ski instructor who has been on snow since age 3 cannot teach a dyspraxic to ski". ☺ OK I only have my own experience, but really, 3 utter failure ski trips, zero progress, could barely stand without falling again and again. The workaround was finding a bunny slope that was so gentle I barely slid and so had time to make the body adjustments, the use to begin with of 95cm short skis which are easier to control, and after much online reading and notetaking and visualising, spending many many days drilling subskills and making glacial progress. The happy result was eventually becoming a permanent middling intermediate with awful style who nevertheless needs to spend a couple of days relearning at the start of trips. That'll do me fine. It was similar with learning to roller skate as a child, it took an abnormally long time and required practicing on carpet and yes, holding the railing. No point just standing and falling repeatedly for the whole session. Anyone who observed me skiing and told me I just 'needed more confidence' or somesuch, well, I wanted to biff their head to the horizon. Surely we know better by now. At least there is more understanding nowdays in important matters like education, that some kids who can absolutely become literate will slip through the cracks unless different methods are used. But with accommodations and the right approaches, people can be the best they can be.
I cannot express how interesting I find this!! Maybe a psychopath needs to teach a psychopath how to draw. Hmm. Clever! Now there is a study in neuroscience and neuropsychology if I’ve ever heard one. Alas, no real control group, especially since it most likely had to do with actual brain function.
I am not a psychopath (just putting that out there ha) but I cannot teach anyone how to do those sorts of puzzles either and, for me, they are typically done in a flash, without conscious thought. I just know where they go.
Perhaps I may suggest there are nuances at play, not just bringing IQ into the mix, but the idea, and I believe I touched upon it before, that genius and “madness” are close friends. After all, isn’t madness just a romantic description of the mentally ill, which, for all intents and purposes, include everyone who are not build “neurotypically”? Do you include only those in the psychopathic spectrum and the autistic spectrum not belonging to that NT group? Or can schizophrenics (who also have very irregular MRI’s) be the ones who (sing with me) do not look like the others…which ones do not belong? What about those with Alzheimer’s? Must you be born into it, or can you join, say, through traumatic brain injury?
More questions than answers, but wrapped up in a large compliment. :)
This is so interesting in so many ways. As with everything you explore. My comprehension and vocabulary just isn't adapt enough to comprehend it all so I'm sorry for all the stupid questions and if you have to repeat yourself.
Coming from an art therapy background I was taught that nobody 'can't draw' or when someone says they aren't artistic or creative they just haven't found their own methods. I'm pretty sure they say this to make people feel better about not having talent. I was the only person in my drawing class that couldn't draw something 3d. Everything looks 2d. I can't even after years of practice shade in the right spots. I understand it. I know that you are supposed to shade where the sun wouldn't reach. Still can't do it. I've given up. I don't care enough to keep trying. If I want something to look like a photo I will use a camera.
When you say you can't draw do you mean you can't draw a realistic drawing of an object or a portrait? Or do you mean you can't put to paper what is envisioned in your brain? If you went on a easy how to draw tutorial on YouTube that lets say taught how to draw a house. It showed you visually to draw a triangle with a square underneath then a little square for the window and a rectangle for the door. Visually you would have something to copy step by step. Could you do that or do you think even with visual and verbal instructions somewhere the messages would get mixed up and it wouldn't look the same?
My son even when presented with a drawing to copy of a clock will still draw all the numbers on the right hand side. I will give him his drawing and the correct drawing back side by side and he can't see any difference. He is highly intelligent so it's not his intellect 🤷🏼♀️
Haha. I found hacking tough when first playing this game. I am better now, but still find some attempts impossible because of how fast the liquid moves (no matter how hard I try)! With those, I either use an automatic hacking device or just take the lazy way out and leave it.
Very interesting, maybe there is some connection in the brain that your missing. I can draw but haven't learned to do it 3 demential. I can do 2 demential looking though, I sculpt quite well. Some wood carving to. It takes concentration, for me anyway. I have no one to ask, most people can't draw very well. I envy the ones who make it look easy.
This is super interesting, I had no idea that psychopaths struggle with drawing. Have you ever tried tracing images before? When I was a kid I had this desk with a light built into the table top; I used pictures that I had ripped out of coloring books and I would put blank pieces of paper on top of the coloring book pages. I would then use a pencil to trace the outline onto the blank paper (obviously the light coming from the table top made it easier to see the image on the coloring book picture), which made a copy of the image. My family had a printer, I just enjoyed copying images by tracing haha. I CAN draw personally, but not that well and I’m not naturally talented at it. I love imagery still, so I’m more partial to photography.
Hopefully I described the above process ok, there’s probably a simple term for it that I’m just not aware of lol. I’m just curious, have you ever tried to “draw” like this? I wonder if this process of tracing could potentially be used as “training wheels” for people who struggle to draw. Maybe it could at least help build up a person’s muscle memory, which might in turn make it easier to learn how to draw more organically in the future?
I honestly have no idea, just throwing ideas out there. That’s very interesting to me though, it does sound like there must a neurological quirk of some kind that makes it a little harder for you guys to draw. Huh, thanks for the new info. :)
Can you draw a factitious clock with numbers or a three dimensional cube (i.e. draw numbers in right order and in the right places, for example)?
I wonder because it seems to me that what that neurologist hypothesized you had was constructional apraxia.
If you cannot draw what I mentioned above, them it’s likely it and there isn’t really anything you can do about it. If you can, as shittily as possible, but still non-apraxicay, then it’s likely not apraxia and you can learn to draw.
I can relate to your comment about tracing, partially. I can draw but my ability to draw varies greatly day by day.
I can visualize things very well. I noticed that when I am drawing what I am doing is seeing the image I want to draw in my mind, tracing it mentally and physically. I liked your phrase about “translating it to your hand”, for me it’s likely Hans is synchronized with something that I trace images with in my mind. Sometimes the connection between this something and my hand breaches and when it happens, while I will still be able to see the image, I will not be able to figure out how to draw it, like from a reference, not tracing it, at all, I won’t even know where to start. I tried repeating the movements I did drawing the same thing before, but without being able to trace it, I just won’t be able to get the result I want, it will look (very bad) and different from the original image.
My handwriting works kind of the same way, though not really the same way.
It was unreadable when I was young and it took me a decade to change it, but my current handwriting is pretty. Contrary to drawing, with handwriting breaches happen very rarely, but they happen.
I just googled, as far as I understood different parts of the brain are responsible for drawing and for handwriting.
Thank you for this, wonderful perceptions Athena!
I think so much applies to people with all sorts of differences too... Speaking as a math major, autistic, etc. ... I use my math and modeling abilities to try to understand NTs and many other things, and never realized just how different they were though I thought of their thinking as having a different "shape"...
NTs brought up in different cultures have to do somewhat similar stuff to "pass". Realizing their differences takes them work too (It is not always identititarian if I got that word right) . There are writings on that because, well, NTs are the majority.
Well this is interesting alright and I would like to know more about the ways NTs put things together, ask questions etc as you say, that make no sense to you. That cognitive, rather than emotional things make no sense to you is something I would like to understand better (though Maths, yeah, I can't grasp it either). Learning to do the BioShock hacks was persistent practice, but I'd l' m curious about things that you just habitually do the long way round, according to those who know you. Perhaps you can write more in future posts.
Drawing aside, I wonder how much is psychopathy and how much is just individual brains. Here's a little-known maxim- "A Swiss ski instructor who has been on snow since age 3 cannot teach a dyspraxic to ski". ☺ OK I only have my own experience, but really, 3 utter failure ski trips, zero progress, could barely stand without falling again and again. The workaround was finding a bunny slope that was so gentle I barely slid and so had time to make the body adjustments, the use to begin with of 95cm short skis which are easier to control, and after much online reading and notetaking and visualising, spending many many days drilling subskills and making glacial progress. The happy result was eventually becoming a permanent middling intermediate with awful style who nevertheless needs to spend a couple of days relearning at the start of trips. That'll do me fine. It was similar with learning to roller skate as a child, it took an abnormally long time and required practicing on carpet and yes, holding the railing. No point just standing and falling repeatedly for the whole session. Anyone who observed me skiing and told me I just 'needed more confidence' or somesuch, well, I wanted to biff their head to the horizon. Surely we know better by now. At least there is more understanding nowdays in important matters like education, that some kids who can absolutely become literate will slip through the cracks unless different methods are used. But with accommodations and the right approaches, people can be the best they can be.
One of the most interesting stories I’ve read. Thanks for sharing.
I cannot express how interesting I find this!! Maybe a psychopath needs to teach a psychopath how to draw. Hmm. Clever! Now there is a study in neuroscience and neuropsychology if I’ve ever heard one. Alas, no real control group, especially since it most likely had to do with actual brain function.
I am not a psychopath (just putting that out there ha) but I cannot teach anyone how to do those sorts of puzzles either and, for me, they are typically done in a flash, without conscious thought. I just know where they go.
Perhaps I may suggest there are nuances at play, not just bringing IQ into the mix, but the idea, and I believe I touched upon it before, that genius and “madness” are close friends. After all, isn’t madness just a romantic description of the mentally ill, which, for all intents and purposes, include everyone who are not build “neurotypically”? Do you include only those in the psychopathic spectrum and the autistic spectrum not belonging to that NT group? Or can schizophrenics (who also have very irregular MRI’s) be the ones who (sing with me) do not look like the others…which ones do not belong? What about those with Alzheimer’s? Must you be born into it, or can you join, say, through traumatic brain injury?
More questions than answers, but wrapped up in a large compliment. :)
This is so interesting in so many ways. As with everything you explore. My comprehension and vocabulary just isn't adapt enough to comprehend it all so I'm sorry for all the stupid questions and if you have to repeat yourself.
Coming from an art therapy background I was taught that nobody 'can't draw' or when someone says they aren't artistic or creative they just haven't found their own methods. I'm pretty sure they say this to make people feel better about not having talent. I was the only person in my drawing class that couldn't draw something 3d. Everything looks 2d. I can't even after years of practice shade in the right spots. I understand it. I know that you are supposed to shade where the sun wouldn't reach. Still can't do it. I've given up. I don't care enough to keep trying. If I want something to look like a photo I will use a camera.
When you say you can't draw do you mean you can't draw a realistic drawing of an object or a portrait? Or do you mean you can't put to paper what is envisioned in your brain? If you went on a easy how to draw tutorial on YouTube that lets say taught how to draw a house. It showed you visually to draw a triangle with a square underneath then a little square for the window and a rectangle for the door. Visually you would have something to copy step by step. Could you do that or do you think even with visual and verbal instructions somewhere the messages would get mixed up and it wouldn't look the same?
My son even when presented with a drawing to copy of a clock will still draw all the numbers on the right hand side. I will give him his drawing and the correct drawing back side by side and he can't see any difference. He is highly intelligent so it's not his intellect 🤷🏼♀️
Haha. I found hacking tough when first playing this game. I am better now, but still find some attempts impossible because of how fast the liquid moves (no matter how hard I try)! With those, I either use an automatic hacking device or just take the lazy way out and leave it.
Very interesting, maybe there is some connection in the brain that your missing. I can draw but haven't learned to do it 3 demential. I can do 2 demential looking though, I sculpt quite well. Some wood carving to. It takes concentration, for me anyway. I have no one to ask, most people can't draw very well. I envy the ones who make it look easy.
This is super interesting, I had no idea that psychopaths struggle with drawing. Have you ever tried tracing images before? When I was a kid I had this desk with a light built into the table top; I used pictures that I had ripped out of coloring books and I would put blank pieces of paper on top of the coloring book pages. I would then use a pencil to trace the outline onto the blank paper (obviously the light coming from the table top made it easier to see the image on the coloring book picture), which made a copy of the image. My family had a printer, I just enjoyed copying images by tracing haha. I CAN draw personally, but not that well and I’m not naturally talented at it. I love imagery still, so I’m more partial to photography.
Hopefully I described the above process ok, there’s probably a simple term for it that I’m just not aware of lol. I’m just curious, have you ever tried to “draw” like this? I wonder if this process of tracing could potentially be used as “training wheels” for people who struggle to draw. Maybe it could at least help build up a person’s muscle memory, which might in turn make it easier to learn how to draw more organically in the future?
I honestly have no idea, just throwing ideas out there. That’s very interesting to me though, it does sound like there must a neurological quirk of some kind that makes it a little harder for you guys to draw. Huh, thanks for the new info. :)