Interesting. I was one if the women who was not looking to marry or have children. But I did marry for the adventure of it. The 3rd time I was about 32 and at at 35 the bell went off. I had never even noticed pregnant women on the street. I did not like babies. I liked puppies. I knew I was not particularly maternal and not at all domestically inclined.
What changed?
I had a big insight in which I could see two things at once: my nice relatively predictable life of study, work, friends, a mate and great vacations vs a deeper level of life where I have children and all the things that means. It was like comparing 2D to 3D. I chose the later and 45 years later am still there with my husband, 2 adult daughters, and a grandchild.
I've never liked babies. As a child, I couldn't fathom why adult women were so gaga about them. I didn't like baby dolls, either. But, I learned to dislike them even more when I started babysitting at age 12. I was popular for some reason, so I was always booked, but I only rarely liked children, and always once they were older. I ended up raising several children to school age during college working as a private nanny. All of these experiences convinced me without any doubt that I would never want to be a mother.
One of the weirdest remarks I received after saying that I would never have children, was to be asked who would take care of me in my old age. I was dumbfounded. Do people actually have children for this purpose? I would hate to tell this person, but there is no guarantee that a child will take care of you. In fact, they might end up on drugs, or in bad relationships, or in poverty, and so many possibilities that would make caregiving highly unlikely. As a matter of fact, I have seen elderly parents still taking care of wayward, or ill adult children.
However, fate intervened, and my significant other's ex-wife died, leaving their two small children motherless. I was well acquainted with these kids, and fond of them. I knew that I would take over where their mother left off, and they've always called me "mom". They never considered me to be their stepmother. They've been a lot of fun, and a lot of trouble, but both have great careers, are successfully married, and the grandchildren are adorable. I find being a grandmother more suitable to my naturebecause I don't want to discipline, or worry about instilling values, or teaching anything. Their parents have to do all of that worrying and work, while I just spoil them, which is loads of fun.
However, like Karol, if I'm going to have a planned child it will always be a cat. I knew this as a small child, and felt profoundly related to them, often understanding them far more than I do humans.
I've just given this a great deal of thought because I was very young when I was asked this. I guess you could see it as projection about their own aging fears, but in this context, it was more about their fears of being cared for by family members who were not their children. This was a unique question, though, for a Westerner. I was asked this by Muslim friends who are very tribal, and would always take care of one another. But, you'd never want to be in a cared for position, because it would be of a much lower status, and often resented. When adult children care for aging parents, their parents are usually revered. This would not be the case for a childless elderly woman.
There is also the bit where majority of our history there was no one but offspring to care for elderly. And then there is the fact that lower the birthrates, the more difficult it is to pay pensions. So work age is being inreased currently, but there are limits to that too.
It occurs to me that if for reasons of her own a female psychopath decided to spawn a human or two that she could be an excellent mother should she so chose. I mean I have dogs and cattle myself and a lack of emotional empathy doesn't result in my mistreating them and in fact I rather like having them around. The dogs have their job of early warning system and heat source on cold nights and are actually entertaining to take on walks and play fetch with. The cattle in general have a very good life with only what I say is one really bad day right at the end.
I had the good fortune to have a father and stepmother who explained to me at a young age (6 or 7) that:
1. Society would expect various things of me, among them to have children
2. These expectations are wrong and I am under no obligation to fulfill them. Indeed, they should be ignored.
3. Above all, "Everyone is doing it" is never a good reason to do anything.
My mom might even have liked to have a granchild one day, but she never made a big deal about it. It was always, "Get yourself established in your career first, then maybe you can think about that."
But then I got breast cancer and had to have chemo. I was quite young at the time - not even 40 yet. So, the first thing my mom did was run out and have herself tested, just in case it ran in the family and just happened to have shown up in me first.
Thankfully, the tests came out negative. But then she realized that the chemo could render me sterile, so - since I myself am an only child - she just made peace with the idea that she would never have a grandchild, and had done with it.
At any rate, I never was able to understand even why my own parents bothered to have me, let alone why anyone else bothers to have children. Indeed, I am now nearly 60 years old, and I thank God every day that I am child-free. I prefer the company of cats, although they can sometimes be hard to live with. I am sure that a child would be exponentially more difficult :)
One thing my Mom would say to people is 'it's selfish to have children knowing you can't take care of them' whenever they tried to make the argument that its selfish to not have kids.
While I understand why people have this attitude, I think people also need to realize that a huge portion of a therapist's clients are there due to crappy childhoods. My parents love me and want what's best for me, but even then I still have memories from my early childhood of them complaining about how much it costs to raise me and my siblings. My mom also complained about how "lazy" me and my older brother were but would then yell at us for not doing the chores "correctly". To them it was just venting about life; to me, it was an inescapable trap of guilt and shame.
How many people who pressure others to have kids are willing to adopt those children themselves? Take on the financial burden of raising those children? Have the patience to deal with children? Parenthood is a HUGE thing to expect of someone, and there are a million and one ways to mess someone up for life.
you acknowledge that parenthood is huge, and at the same time it seems you resent your parents for causing you guilt and shame. there are no perfect parents because there are no perfect humans. i don't mean to pin this on you but it seems in popular culture these days, adult children blame their parents for any negative emotional or behavioral issues that they may experience, especially the mom. so cliche, but true. so, yet another reason to seriously consider whether the role of parent is something you want to take on. it's so often really a thankless job.
There was a lot more going on, and a lot of that other stuff exasperated my feelings of guilt and shame. I simply brought up the finances and chores because those are the things people complain about the most.
I see my parents as human, and guess what, I still resent them. Why? Because growing up only THEY were allowed to be human. I, had to be an eternally grateful beacon of perfection so as to not stress them out even more.
I acknowledge that now today, the only person expecting perfection from me is me. The only person who sees me as a burden is me. These are problems I will have to deal with and while they may have started in childhood, it is me who owns those emotions.
As for internet culture? One thing I found about most people is that when someone treats us badly, we want to believe that that person is the most evil despicable monster there is. Unfortunately when you have a whole group of people going through the same thing, it can create an echo chamber of people just assigning the worst intentions to those who wronged them. This is why I consider those websites of people talking about their “narcissistic” ex to be predatory, they’re taking a very natural emotional state and blowing it out of proportion to make a profit.
Thank you for offering a fresh perspective. I also never wanted children but I didn't let other opinions on this matter affect me much. But I've been gaslighted my whole life by people thinking they know what I feel, and I experienced exactly what you described. Rage at not being seen for who I am, like I don't even exist. I don't care if people don't like me, but if they don't see me for who I am, they are taking away my identity. Anyway, I had to let it go and realize that I was just wasting precious time and energy that could be spent living my life the way I want and towards achieving my personal goals. I don't know if I thought my preferences should dictate the world but I would prefer a world that was a little more accepting of those of us who are different. If there is genetic wisdom in the behavior of the majority, there must be some genetic wisdom in being different too. I suppose I'm still entitled 😂
People are largely similarly wired which is why there so many assumptions that society runs on. Most of the time these assumptions are correct, but when they are not it causes a disconnect that people have a hard time reconciling.
Indeed. The assumption I've found the most annoying is that "of course one loves one's mother." Color me NOT. There is no biological thing causing a child to love its mother. Like respect, love also needs to be earned. And when it's not. Well then, pish tosh.
Someone may not like children but for me the children is the source of happiness, like my family always talk about my sister's child, how cute he is,.... despite that my mother and father hate each other and never done any sentence without arguing...I suppose the children have the ability to control people's emotions
VERY interesting post. Much wisdom about species wisdom showing up in various ways. And the practical and logical fallacy of assuming that one's own viewpoint and experience are "typical" of the reality of what it's like to be human. And especially yes, the arrogance of both making that assumption and also foisting it off onto others.
Re the whole "want to have kids" thing, when I was in my teens and early twenties, I thought I would have kids. Never gave it much analytical thought. But after my marriage broke at 25 and I didn't have the kid I'd planned to have around then, the thought of having them became less and less attractive. And children's voices became like that scratching on blackboard sound sending shivers up my spine. (Atavistically yuck!) Which it still does when said voices get shrill. Oddly, I still felt that way even when my hormones went amuck in my early-mid forties (yeah, that biological clock ticked big time). My body may have been screaming Yes Kids, but my mind was screaming Hell No.
Curiously enough, I did fall in love with -- and ultimately committed to -- a guy with four kids -- and have become a sort-of-step-mom to all four of them. That is, I care about them, they care about me. And I admit that they do enrich my life. It's now hard to imagine how my life would be without them.
But that whole notion of "Mom", yeah, I still don't really embrace that. (Having had a toxic mom certainly plays a role in that.) And yes, I'm neurotypical.
Interesting. I was one if the women who was not looking to marry or have children. But I did marry for the adventure of it. The 3rd time I was about 32 and at at 35 the bell went off. I had never even noticed pregnant women on the street. I did not like babies. I liked puppies. I knew I was not particularly maternal and not at all domestically inclined.
What changed?
I had a big insight in which I could see two things at once: my nice relatively predictable life of study, work, friends, a mate and great vacations vs a deeper level of life where I have children and all the things that means. It was like comparing 2D to 3D. I chose the later and 45 years later am still there with my husband, 2 adult daughters, and a grandchild.
I echo your "interesting", albeit differently. And "2D vs 3D" = nifty metaphor.
I've never liked babies. As a child, I couldn't fathom why adult women were so gaga about them. I didn't like baby dolls, either. But, I learned to dislike them even more when I started babysitting at age 12. I was popular for some reason, so I was always booked, but I only rarely liked children, and always once they were older. I ended up raising several children to school age during college working as a private nanny. All of these experiences convinced me without any doubt that I would never want to be a mother.
One of the weirdest remarks I received after saying that I would never have children, was to be asked who would take care of me in my old age. I was dumbfounded. Do people actually have children for this purpose? I would hate to tell this person, but there is no guarantee that a child will take care of you. In fact, they might end up on drugs, or in bad relationships, or in poverty, and so many possibilities that would make caregiving highly unlikely. As a matter of fact, I have seen elderly parents still taking care of wayward, or ill adult children.
However, fate intervened, and my significant other's ex-wife died, leaving their two small children motherless. I was well acquainted with these kids, and fond of them. I knew that I would take over where their mother left off, and they've always called me "mom". They never considered me to be their stepmother. They've been a lot of fun, and a lot of trouble, but both have great careers, are successfully married, and the grandchildren are adorable. I find being a grandmother more suitable to my naturebecause I don't want to discipline, or worry about instilling values, or teaching anything. Their parents have to do all of that worrying and work, while I just spoil them, which is loads of fun.
However, like Karol, if I'm going to have a planned child it will always be a cat. I knew this as a small child, and felt profoundly related to them, often understanding them far more than I do humans.
That seems to be a common question regarding care in old age. I think it is a projection of fear that person has of being alone and vulnerable.
I've just given this a great deal of thought because I was very young when I was asked this. I guess you could see it as projection about their own aging fears, but in this context, it was more about their fears of being cared for by family members who were not their children. This was a unique question, though, for a Westerner. I was asked this by Muslim friends who are very tribal, and would always take care of one another. But, you'd never want to be in a cared for position, because it would be of a much lower status, and often resented. When adult children care for aging parents, their parents are usually revered. This would not be the case for a childless elderly woman.
There is also the bit where majority of our history there was no one but offspring to care for elderly. And then there is the fact that lower the birthrates, the more difficult it is to pay pensions. So work age is being inreased currently, but there are limits to that too.
It occurs to me that if for reasons of her own a female psychopath decided to spawn a human or two that she could be an excellent mother should she so chose. I mean I have dogs and cattle myself and a lack of emotional empathy doesn't result in my mistreating them and in fact I rather like having them around. The dogs have their job of early warning system and heat source on cold nights and are actually entertaining to take on walks and play fetch with. The cattle in general have a very good life with only what I say is one really bad day right at the end.
Do you have beef cattle or dairy?
Beef cattle
Nice. Dairy cows certainly are great, but up thirteen gallons of milk a day seems a bit overkill for most people.
Overkill. Yeah. No kidding. LOL!
I had the good fortune to have a father and stepmother who explained to me at a young age (6 or 7) that:
1. Society would expect various things of me, among them to have children
2. These expectations are wrong and I am under no obligation to fulfill them. Indeed, they should be ignored.
3. Above all, "Everyone is doing it" is never a good reason to do anything.
My mom might even have liked to have a granchild one day, but she never made a big deal about it. It was always, "Get yourself established in your career first, then maybe you can think about that."
But then I got breast cancer and had to have chemo. I was quite young at the time - not even 40 yet. So, the first thing my mom did was run out and have herself tested, just in case it ran in the family and just happened to have shown up in me first.
Thankfully, the tests came out negative. But then she realized that the chemo could render me sterile, so - since I myself am an only child - she just made peace with the idea that she would never have a grandchild, and had done with it.
At any rate, I never was able to understand even why my own parents bothered to have me, let alone why anyone else bothers to have children. Indeed, I am now nearly 60 years old, and I thank God every day that I am child-free. I prefer the company of cats, although they can sometimes be hard to live with. I am sure that a child would be exponentially more difficult :)
Well Athena, I've never had a maternal inclination in my life. Had a tubal ligation early and celebrated!
One thing my Mom would say to people is 'it's selfish to have children knowing you can't take care of them' whenever they tried to make the argument that its selfish to not have kids.
While I understand why people have this attitude, I think people also need to realize that a huge portion of a therapist's clients are there due to crappy childhoods. My parents love me and want what's best for me, but even then I still have memories from my early childhood of them complaining about how much it costs to raise me and my siblings. My mom also complained about how "lazy" me and my older brother were but would then yell at us for not doing the chores "correctly". To them it was just venting about life; to me, it was an inescapable trap of guilt and shame.
How many people who pressure others to have kids are willing to adopt those children themselves? Take on the financial burden of raising those children? Have the patience to deal with children? Parenthood is a HUGE thing to expect of someone, and there are a million and one ways to mess someone up for life.
you acknowledge that parenthood is huge, and at the same time it seems you resent your parents for causing you guilt and shame. there are no perfect parents because there are no perfect humans. i don't mean to pin this on you but it seems in popular culture these days, adult children blame their parents for any negative emotional or behavioral issues that they may experience, especially the mom. so cliche, but true. so, yet another reason to seriously consider whether the role of parent is something you want to take on. it's so often really a thankless job.
There was a lot more going on, and a lot of that other stuff exasperated my feelings of guilt and shame. I simply brought up the finances and chores because those are the things people complain about the most.
I see my parents as human, and guess what, I still resent them. Why? Because growing up only THEY were allowed to be human. I, had to be an eternally grateful beacon of perfection so as to not stress them out even more.
I acknowledge that now today, the only person expecting perfection from me is me. The only person who sees me as a burden is me. These are problems I will have to deal with and while they may have started in childhood, it is me who owns those emotions.
As for internet culture? One thing I found about most people is that when someone treats us badly, we want to believe that that person is the most evil despicable monster there is. Unfortunately when you have a whole group of people going through the same thing, it can create an echo chamber of people just assigning the worst intentions to those who wronged them. This is why I consider those websites of people talking about their “narcissistic” ex to be predatory, they’re taking a very natural emotional state and blowing it out of proportion to make a profit.
Thank you for offering a fresh perspective. I also never wanted children but I didn't let other opinions on this matter affect me much. But I've been gaslighted my whole life by people thinking they know what I feel, and I experienced exactly what you described. Rage at not being seen for who I am, like I don't even exist. I don't care if people don't like me, but if they don't see me for who I am, they are taking away my identity. Anyway, I had to let it go and realize that I was just wasting precious time and energy that could be spent living my life the way I want and towards achieving my personal goals. I don't know if I thought my preferences should dictate the world but I would prefer a world that was a little more accepting of those of us who are different. If there is genetic wisdom in the behavior of the majority, there must be some genetic wisdom in being different too. I suppose I'm still entitled 😂
People are largely similarly wired which is why there so many assumptions that society runs on. Most of the time these assumptions are correct, but when they are not it causes a disconnect that people have a hard time reconciling.
Indeed. The assumption I've found the most annoying is that "of course one loves one's mother." Color me NOT. There is no biological thing causing a child to love its mother. Like respect, love also needs to be earned. And when it's not. Well then, pish tosh.
I agree
Someone may not like children but for me the children is the source of happiness, like my family always talk about my sister's child, how cute he is,.... despite that my mother and father hate each other and never done any sentence without arguing...I suppose the children have the ability to control people's emotions
Indeed they do
VERY interesting post. Much wisdom about species wisdom showing up in various ways. And the practical and logical fallacy of assuming that one's own viewpoint and experience are "typical" of the reality of what it's like to be human. And especially yes, the arrogance of both making that assumption and also foisting it off onto others.
Re the whole "want to have kids" thing, when I was in my teens and early twenties, I thought I would have kids. Never gave it much analytical thought. But after my marriage broke at 25 and I didn't have the kid I'd planned to have around then, the thought of having them became less and less attractive. And children's voices became like that scratching on blackboard sound sending shivers up my spine. (Atavistically yuck!) Which it still does when said voices get shrill. Oddly, I still felt that way even when my hormones went amuck in my early-mid forties (yeah, that biological clock ticked big time). My body may have been screaming Yes Kids, but my mind was screaming Hell No.
Curiously enough, I did fall in love with -- and ultimately committed to -- a guy with four kids -- and have become a sort-of-step-mom to all four of them. That is, I care about them, they care about me. And I admit that they do enrich my life. It's now hard to imagine how my life would be without them.
But that whole notion of "Mom", yeah, I still don't really embrace that. (Having had a toxic mom certainly plays a role in that.) And yes, I'm neurotypical.
Wow, felt some Neil deGrasse Tyson vibes going on, lol. Great article, thanks once more, Athena!
Thank you, Luiz