I'm thinking of a time when my mask dropped completely because I had the flu.
There's a trope about men being needy babies when they're sick but that is not me. I want to be left alone and I have to think and remind myself that as in the instance I am recalling my ex was trying her best to be thoughtful and helpful
I didn't appreciate it, not because I'm entitled or anything like that but because I simple can't be. I was grateful that I was comfortable and didn't die and that was about it.
I also am pretty indifferent to receiving birthday and christmas gifts too and my family simply no longer includes me in the exchange process. They know how I am
Yes, I am the same way. I prefer to be left alone when ill.
I am also the same about gifts. It's appreciated that people want to do things for me, but they sort of seem like more trouble than they're worth. It also means that I forget that gifts can mean a great deal to people normally.
When ill, I'm especially needy. Partly because that was the time when my parents would offer me a great deal of comfort and would indulge me. They definitely turn being sick into happy times. I never took advantage of that, nor then neither now. Yet, I'm still unjustly expecting, that such treatment will continue, although I rationally know that it is not sth to be expected from my partner.
i think you have just explained why i want to flip tables when people call me 'such a considerate person' and have called me this my whole life. in my case, i also learned from watching other people, like you watched your friend's behavior, but i also think of other people because they have gotten angry/turned into not-so-great people when i haven't. i learned to think of others because it was drilled into my head through ill treatment. otherwise, i would just be thinking of myself because that is, i don't know, my 'normal'?
the moment i don't think of others first, people think something is wrong and begin to get onto my case. maybe i SHOULD start flipping tables instead of swallowing teeth. this makes a good point, being nice + masking is quite exhausting and ever since i've known i do it, i've known it contributes to my chronic fatigue.
this was a good one, actually pretty enlightening. thanks athena.
Hmmm... There is not enough information here to know but one thing I have advised friends of before is 'There is a difference between giving and allowing others to take'.
Athena is in a long term consentual intimate relationship so might be expected to look out for her partner. But if you are hanging around people that get angry if you don't give them what they want that might not be the same thing.
I find prayer is always helpful in these matters. I don't know if you are religious though.
Perhaps ignore "should/shoulds" as far as your obligation to others. Those who get on your case are disposable. They've shown you their true concern, that being themselves.
thank you for this. i have grown a lot but seem to continually hit walls when it comes to boundaries which is so stupid but i guess a result of them never being respected. time to take that back, i suppose.
It's completely exhausting. Even being nice to reach your personal goal taxes one's mind .
For example, I'm having wrist surgery in two weeks. Monday, two days ago, I met with the surgeon. We had a bit of a verbal tussle where I reminded him he said I needed this surgery last year during my last visit. He said he did not and he hated people putting words in his mouth.
OK... so now we have my surgeon emotional. (Although I well remember him saying this, and have told others the same. ) I weighed my options with my goal in mind - to get the surgery over with.
Despite inwardly cringing, I backed down. Calmly lowered and slowed my voice then apologize and said I must have misunderstood.
Found out by keeping my voice as such his main concern is that I have an ongoing MRSA infection. The infectious disease specialist I'm working with cleared me for the surgery prior to the preop.
There was a lot of doctor wrangling/handling I needed to do afterwards. Lack of communication on their part. The operation is on.
Good lord, your surgeon sounds like he is placing some sort of personal issue on you head. Frankly, how would he remember whether or not he said that last year? Are you his only patient? No, of course not, but likely he is your only surgeon, so who is more likely to correctly recall that conversation? Probably the one that it affects most, which would be you.
He said this a few months ago. I'd gone to see him for a second steroid injection. Asked him how much time I had before needing surgery. To which he replied, " It should have been done last year. "
However, last year I was prepping for the lumbar fusion/vertebral disc replacement, so this issue was on the back burner.
I thought the same as you, about the personal issue, especially when he said, "I hate people putting words in my mouth."
This particular statement was what changed my tactics.
i sincerely dislike when the patient, who has come to the doctor with a problem, has to then calm the doctor's problems (which is all too often a lack of communication that would be solved by shutting their trap).
I spent years of my life trying to understand this payoff that neurotypicals get from helping each other. It never really made sense to me and what I do is mostly because I see my mom doing it (she's the kind of person who will try to help anyone, even those who are being toxic to her). It does not have much emotional impact on me if I help or get helped by someone. I tell my therapist all the time that I constantly have to make a cognitive choice to help or do something for someone because on autopilot, it doesn't cross mind quite often. An example of this was: I was with my boyfriend and I was eating chocolate sticks. He wanted some but he didn't tell me. I kept eating it until it was over. When he came to ask me, I told him it was over. He was a little upset because I didn't offer him. I shrugged and got another pack of chocolate sticks. But this time I offered. He denied. I shrugged again but then he grabbed the pack off my hands and got some sticks for him. Just like you said it on the podcast, I always think that if someone wants something from me, I expect them to ask me directly, that is asking for food, water or an old lady who wants to have her seat on a crowded subway. I really need them to ask me directly for what they want, otherwise It won't cross my mind.
I mask and try to be more considerate of others because that's how it's supposed to be (damn you, neurotypicals lol), but it drains me, it drains me a lot... Sometimes I can't even mask and I'm immediately met with "you're so inconsiderate! Think more about others..."
I mean no harm to anyone. I don't wish to cause chaos, to hurt people or anything like that, especially when I know this type of thing won't get me anywhere. However I equally find it quite unfair to be called "inconsiderate" just because I'm not acting like how neurotypicals expect me to.
Personally, I, as a mostly neurotypical person with ADHD had to learn a lot of what you'd call "thinking of others." I made it a habit, eventually. It lightens cognitive load to make habits out of taking care of those that I trust to be there for me. The good life runs on rails. So long as I'm breathing air, I don't have to think much about breathing. It's suffocation, or the dread of it, that focuses the mind.
What really drains me is when someone is on the knife's edge in terms of whether or not they're a benefit in my life and having to manually consider every effort to judge if it's best to keep them. But if I don't do this, I risk keeping a broken stair in my household, which I will eventually put my full weight upon and tumble.
I suspect that pro-social psychopaths lack certain kinds of emotional inertia in general? Though you do try to 'keep good habits' you've said, Athena, so there's some kind of psychic inertia at play, it seems, even for you. Are you less prone to habits than most?
Sorry. It's not a technical term. I wanted a word to describe how if I feel one way yesterday that I'm likely to feel the same way tomorrow. This happens even if I don't want it to, which can be annoying when relationships end, and took some learning to manage. But judging from what you write, it seems to reduce cognitive load in the context of long term relationships.
I can certainly see how this is a "you have to experience it to understand it" kind of thing. Logic is much more intuitive. Do you mind me asking if you feel like you're less likely to form habits in general compared to neurotypicals? You seemed to indicate at one point that you did have habits and wanted to maintain some of your pro-social ones.
Hmm, I don't know if I could say that it's harder because I notice that neurotypicals often struggle with habits, or making something routine. For me, it is a matter of deciding to do so and then sticking with the new addition.
I can say that we don’t always get a positive payback for being nice/helpful, etc., to another person or others. quite often, good deeds can result in a response ranging from lukewarm to actual contempt. Ego-driven Ntype can take the deed as a sign of naïveté or even submission, and respond in a way that makes their opinion of you clear. One measure of an ‘adult’ Ntype is having the resilience to weather this treatment, an still maintain a principle of kindness - or at least proactivity - towards others. To become hardened to the world is, to me, the real act of submission. I’m aware of your stance on trust but - for me- not trusting is, arguably, as exhausting as the mask is for you. I would caution someone who I felt was too nice, who ALWAYS put others’ wants or needs above their own (as I have, quite often to my regret) regardless of the cost, to temper their kindness by taking a mental steep back and seeing two people interacting - rather than themselves and another - and to re-evaluate the situation. This way, they learn to treat themselves with the same amount of kindness and respect that they would afford others. That’s kind of a middle ground of trust that should serve everyone’s needs well. I would rather look back on my life and see that I was better to some people than they deserved than worse. But that’s just me. I can understand that concept not holding any appeal for you, and I can’t argue against your logic of insisting others earn your trust. I believe I mentioned in a comment in one of your previous posts that one of the sad truths of life is learning who not to trust, but that’s an unavoidable rite of passage for my kind. I can’t fully recommend this way of life to anyone like you not predisposed to it, but I believe if you’re born with the ability to care (and I don’t mean this in a condescending way - it’s just a big part of me) that you have to deal with it in the best way possible. Even in the darkest of times.
I think neurotypicals can rise to great heights if they are willing to do the proper introspection and deal with these things. The thing is that emotional empathy, as I understand it, partly from one of Athena's quora posts but also from books like "Against Empathy" by Paul Bloom. Is a crutch that can make things easier because it does not require thought. Those outside emotional empathy, or with impaired emotional empathy; autists, psychopaths, schizoids, sometimes even narcissists; can quickly see though the manipulation and come along in leaps and bounds BUT, many of these types can not then get the benefit of emotional empathy + the rational understandings they have gained. They only have the latter.
But if intelligence is used by the neurotypical then they have both tools in their toolbox. They can passionately explore the relevant emotional elements, maintain the power to nurture and help others, while also having a rational understanding which prevents them being manipulated.
The converse of empathy is Ecpathy, a voluntary mental process of actively excluding feelings, attitudes, thoughts and motivations induced by others. The development of ecpathic abilities is most useful for dealing with projective identification, both in clinical and extraclinical situations, and for preventing the influence of emotional manipulation and emotional contagion.
I believe this is what people who utilize Machiavellian type strategies do. They have found that people using this life strategy tend to be higher in empathy, but they disregard it in pursuit of what they want.
WOW! JUST WOW! This is difficult for me to take in. This unmitigated selfishness goes against everything that makes humans social and want to live in society and community. And you and the others here who would call themselves all agree, along with Fallon that being nice, exchanging gifts, helping others is so unnatural that it is physically exhausting. Never realized that forcing oneself to think of others, to be considerate could be such a burden. I'm somewhat amazed but also grateful for the information. It gives me a whole new perspective about some people in my life and my expectations for them.
Your point about exhaustion is fascinating and spot on.
My (NT) experience has been that jobs are exhausting -- largely because 95% of them involved tasks I didn't enjoy or want to do, but had to do "something" in order to pay the rent and keep groceries in the fridge and on the table. I believe this "work is exhausting" problem is true of a majority of the population -- and not just because their job involves expenditure of physical energy. Though exactly what percentage of said population feels this way is unclear.
I also believe this type of emotional exhaustion is a significant factor in why some folks go drink after work and also indulge in various "escapist" activities both after work and on weekends.
For me, I devote a lot of my time towards tasks that are kind of chores. However, like when I was still in work (currently not well enough to work) I consciously define myself in a sort of semi slavery capacity. It helps. I am doing x boring thing, but this is expected, because I am a slave. I do at least have my own time though. - Including prayer and other personal practices that give me energy.
In relation to mental health in general, and all personality disorders, this is an absolutely huge factor and the elephant in the room. However, in my view, a lot of these people are unrepentant atheists (i.e. rejecting the help of spirits ready to help them if they only ask!) and will not hesitate to subject others to the same kind of bullying that they themselves are subjected to (in order to make them work harder and such). This might take the form of social ostracism or other things to anyone who is not a "team player".
So in a sense it seems to me that I could not argue against this situation being karmically justified.
Case in point ref elephant in the room, I knew a borderline girl who killed herself. There were two elements that strongly pushed this... A) Having to work when she was clearly not capable of doing so (and she had worked extremely hard her whole life, now 40, she was starting to burn out) B) Toxic female friends.
There are lots of toxic societal elements that create mental health problems that are in part, or perhaps wholly responsible for these mental issues. But these are always ignored because no one wants to offer any concessions that would reduce profit - and no one has the power to force unwilling corporations and governments. It's like saying "We want to improve the mental health of this girls boarding school but don't want to take out the rapist teachers".
Sam Vaknin recently came out with a video where he said that he is pushing to redefine mental health disorder in general to encompass the fact that most of these are heavily influenced by the societal element.
You inspired me with your emotional circuit theory. Ever since I came across it, I was observing, playing, researching it and it turned out to be absolutely true. But also taken for granted to a degree that there is no research done on it whatsoever (correct me if I'm wrong).
You left out a feeling of bonding from the list of the emotional payoffs neurotypicals get out of the circuit. For neurotypicals is supposedly quite scary to imagine that one is alone in bearing a certain feeling, that one is the only one experiencing a situation in such way. It gives a feeling of isolation, alienation and is contradictory to our imprinted tribal nature. We are searching for cues and confirmations in social interactions that we are indeed sharing the same experience/feeling. This game is a deceiving one as it is logically impossible.
On the other note, I had an interesting experience few months ago when I was tripping on acid. I was alone in my room with my cats and acid was taking its course. At some point, for few brief minutes, I could interact with a cat as if our circuits would connect. I could understand cat's feelings and intentions and I could interact with the cat on these various interchanging levels, on an intentional, feeling or thought.
Of course, let's not forget I was high and my reality was severely distorted and it may all be a product of my imagination. But acid is also known for how it alters our perception. Upon reflection and some Temple Grandin's interviews I came to a theory that acid switched off my analytical part of brain and gave room to pure intuition and intuition is what cats' brain primarily work on. That's how our circuits could connect.
I find polite banter is extremely helpful to me and others around me. It takes a little effort making it common to your way of communicating but I’ve worked in both polite and straightforward environments and the difference for me is striking. It is an emotional thing for me.
Thank you Athena, I always get so much out of your topics
Finding the average IQ of criminals is a worthless metric, which is where they do such studies. You wouldn't use the average IQ of neurotypical criminals and assume it had anything to do with the outside world, but this is what they think makes sense with psychopaths? It seems the average IQ of those constructing studies is where the question should lie.
I'm not Athena, but at least some studies suggest that the average psychopath ( a term very poorly and inconsistently defined) is below 100. Studies outside of prisons are probably biased higher than those inside. So sample population is worth considering.
Yes. :-) Mean, median, and mode are all types of 'average.'
Since IQ is normally distributed, they will all be the same in this case. The mean, median, and modal IQ are all 100. But considering the use of standard deviations, we're dealing with distribution around a mean.
LOL. That is really and truly funny. Thank you for my smile.
Perhaps I didn't see the previous posts correctly: I thought someone posted pychopaths, as a group, post a score "less than 100". Maybe it was someone else.
Given the difficulties of the task, to truly identify pychopaths yet somehow the observation was true, as a group 99 or 98, really doesn't seem a big deal. As a group, we are 2% below average? So what?
I thought my post implies that.
On that difficulty of task part: Every post Athena has made, I try figure out if my brain is wired like hers: There is no one assisting me. There is no hotline to call to get evaluated. Professionals I speak with seem "full of sh*t".
I am sure my life is rich and full of experience. I do things others only dream of doing.
BTW, in my darker moments, if I allow myself, I do feel infinitely superior to others (in a nice way) My IQ since grade school is 144.
I am in a very strange place with diagnosis. It nags at me a little. Everything Athena says deeply resonates but some part of me still does not believe it. Right down to psychopaths not getting lines on their faces as she said. My mother and longer term friends told me when I was young, 5 ish, I just had no expressions. It used to kind of weird them out I think.
Then when Fallon comes on and says that psychopaths can love and he grieved his dog that threatened even the small experiences I felt I could count on to oppose the diagnosis.
However, a diagnosis of psychopathy is not useful. It will only hinder with stupid neurotypicals - or put more politely, diagnosis of a condition that is not generally understood and for which there is a lot of confusion. I have decided to let go of the nagging feel I should know because I realise that it does not actually effect anything in the real world. I will be going to therapy that relates to a physical disability I have (suddenly improving from this is a bit of a head trip!) During those sessions I will not be joining any particular dots for the therapist and will be attempting to charm her into not putting it together if I feel it will become an issue. (How psychopathic!?) Only if she is particularly motivated which is unlikely.
Mostly the thing it effects is self knowledge that is one of the most important things their is in my opinion. I am quite capable of pretending to myself I have an emotion I actually do not, and her materials have been part of what has allowed me to stop this.
I don't take Athena's point that psychopaths can't lie to themselves. They would have to be semi omnipotent if that were the case. I think she does not. James Fallon wrote in his book that psychopaths sometimes becomes obsessively religious and that is definitely an avenue I could see that happening.
It reminds me of a biblical quote. MANY of the thing that have allowed me to convince myself I am more caring or humanitarian than I actually am, have quite a deep sinister negative effect to them. It is like the Biblical quote 2 Corinthians 11:14: For even Satan himself, masquerades as an angel of light. -- So not that I am Satan but the thought, feeling that convinces me I am more caring has that quality; the thought if it were a physical person is like that. It pretends to be good so I grip onto it but actually it's very destructive.
I'm catching up on issues I missed, & your comment caught my attention. Fallon's religion/psychopath connection is really curious - religion & spirituality are intertwined with emotions. NT's use them most frequently to deal with unpleasant emotions, often when they "hit bottom." Spiritual experiences also nurture emotions a psychopath might not experience like trust, awe, love, etc. So, why would a psychopath get involved with religion? They don’t need to deal with emotional pain and they don't need comfort. Wouldn't be for truth - too many conflicting narratives for truth and they point to an experience rather than offer truths.
Can you summarize his reasoning? Of course, he could he be projecting & generalizing his own uncommon (for a psychopath) emotional needs onto others who share only the diagnosis. Has anyone researched his assertion?
IIRC, Athena didn't find being formally evaluated to be worthwhile to her. (Please correct me if I'm wrong here. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth.)
I am a neurotypical. I had to learn too, just like you, to be considerate. But once I realized this expectation I hurriedly jumped in to do it when the situation presented. I did not have to expend much energy to figure this out. And yes, it has been rewarding both ways, to give and to receive, and it does confer life giving benefits. But I think for the neurotypicals, we aren’t trying to count the cost, just trying to be there as a support and encouragement for each other because it is the thing to do. Like how we would want to be treated. And for us, you are correct, it has its own reward.
I don’t understand where the psychopathic brain’s anomalies/differences comes from. I heard you say, Athena, that the psychopath doesn’t produce Oxytocin, the bonding hormone chemical that’s present in orgasm, or to start labor or even a mother’s lactation. So then, how do psychopaths do it? Do they ever bond? Do they love? Do they love their children? I suppose though, that love is a spiritual emotion and more than just a dose of oxytocin at the appropriate moment. I’m sorry if this sounds insulting. It’s not meant to be. Just curious. I believe you said that the psychopath sees these behaviors of consideration in others and then makes a conscious decision to try them on or not, whether sometimes, or consistently. But they don’t feel it. They try acting them out because they want something and they think that this acting will get it.
I’m worried for psychopaths because the Great Commandments say to 1, Love God with all your heart mind and strength. 2, (the commandment like unto the 1st) To love your neighbor as yourself. It seems to me that the psychopath, by definition, would be incapable of loving God and loving neighbor, except by imitation of this behavior. And the choice to do it would only be for the self centered reasoning of getting life benefits by doing it. Are there psychopaths who believe in God? Do they understand God as Mercy and Love and Just Judge? Or is it all a fairytale to control the masses? I have heard you say that you do not know if God exists and that you do not worry about that. Do you know if this is true of most psychopaths? Are there any psychopathic faith filled believers out there or is this a contradiction in terms? Mostly they don’t care about the subject?
This does sound like an exhausting endeavor for so little reward if one does not experience reciprocal love, even over the little life affirming nudges like I love to give to complete strangers. If I can make someone’s day, that makes my day. And I thank the good Lord for the opportunity. Like the Good Samaritan, I’m glad I came along. Or that they came along.
It seems to me that this ability to love would be a naturally selected for ability by men and women who want the rewards of eternal life with God Our Father. And by a God who wants to preserve a people worth saving by their love. And for the perpetuation a holy people worth saving by way of the Exodus through the Parting of the Red Sea. Or by way of saving the handful of the uncorrupt on Noah’s Ark. And so forth.
For these reasons I am worried about the future of psychopaths. I never heard you say that psychopaths don’t love, but that they want what they want. In a way they might love what they want. Maybe you have talked about this. I don’t know. I do know that psychopaths are born while Sociopaths are made. Sociopaths then, have turned off their neurotypical feelings in favor of not feeling as a sort of self preservation. They could still revert away from their sociopathic mind-set if they wanted to. While psychopaths can only perform as a neurotypical in front of others, if they decide it will bring them what they want. It’s an exhausting route to create an appearance of love. But worth it for the life benefits and the expectation that it could smooth out a relationship that the psychopath wants for some reason. One wonders if God meant to select out this psych type? And if there is no God, then who cares? It wouldn’t matter. I am curious if I’ll get angry responses to my inquiries and statement. Or any confirmations.
Psychopaths do produce oxytocin, we do not process oxytocin. The oxytocin receptor in a psychopath is mutated, which disallows oxytocin from binding to it, so it passes through the system unused. We lack the ability to feel chemical love, bonding, trust, jealousy, as well as other things associated with oxytocin.
If there is a God, you would be ascribing to Him a mistake in his creation of us due to how He made us, which is not something that God is capable of. Therefore the conclusion is that we would be exactly as He intended us to be. No further consideration needs to be undertaken. That said, psychopaths do not experience activation in the "God brain" area of the brain, and faith is not something that has a necessary place in our lives. We lack what it is that people desperately seek to fill in that section of their brain. That saying, there is a God sized hole in the human heart, and if it isn't filled by God it will be filled by something, does not apply.
Don't worry about our future. We are exactly as we are meant to be. I have no need of questioning the why of existence, nor do I feel a need to impress a God for some reward later on. What happens when I die has no bearing on the life that I choose to lead, and the life I choose to lead is decided by my understanding that you create the world in which you want to live. Causing damage and chaos brings nothing but damage and chaos. I have no interest in that.
You are incorrect about sociopaths. I have a post about them and the difference between them and psychopaths that can be found here:
I'm thinking of a time when my mask dropped completely because I had the flu.
There's a trope about men being needy babies when they're sick but that is not me. I want to be left alone and I have to think and remind myself that as in the instance I am recalling my ex was trying her best to be thoughtful and helpful
I didn't appreciate it, not because I'm entitled or anything like that but because I simple can't be. I was grateful that I was comfortable and didn't die and that was about it.
I also am pretty indifferent to receiving birthday and christmas gifts too and my family simply no longer includes me in the exchange process. They know how I am
Yes, I am the same way. I prefer to be left alone when ill.
I am also the same about gifts. It's appreciated that people want to do things for me, but they sort of seem like more trouble than they're worth. It also means that I forget that gifts can mean a great deal to people normally.
Yes, I'm quite a lone wolf especially when ill.
When ill, I'm especially needy. Partly because that was the time when my parents would offer me a great deal of comfort and would indulge me. They definitely turn being sick into happy times. I never took advantage of that, nor then neither now. Yet, I'm still unjustly expecting, that such treatment will continue, although I rationally know that it is not sth to be expected from my partner.
i think you have just explained why i want to flip tables when people call me 'such a considerate person' and have called me this my whole life. in my case, i also learned from watching other people, like you watched your friend's behavior, but i also think of other people because they have gotten angry/turned into not-so-great people when i haven't. i learned to think of others because it was drilled into my head through ill treatment. otherwise, i would just be thinking of myself because that is, i don't know, my 'normal'?
the moment i don't think of others first, people think something is wrong and begin to get onto my case. maybe i SHOULD start flipping tables instead of swallowing teeth. this makes a good point, being nice + masking is quite exhausting and ever since i've known i do it, i've known it contributes to my chronic fatigue.
this was a good one, actually pretty enlightening. thanks athena.
Hmmm... There is not enough information here to know but one thing I have advised friends of before is 'There is a difference between giving and allowing others to take'.
Athena is in a long term consentual intimate relationship so might be expected to look out for her partner. But if you are hanging around people that get angry if you don't give them what they want that might not be the same thing.
I find prayer is always helpful in these matters. I don't know if you are religious though.
it is mostly family i am referring to. i really like that quote, thank you.
Just a suggestion Indigo,
Perhaps ignore "should/shoulds" as far as your obligation to others. Those who get on your case are disposable. They've shown you their true concern, that being themselves.
thank you for this. i have grown a lot but seem to continually hit walls when it comes to boundaries which is so stupid but i guess a result of them never being respected. time to take that back, i suppose.
It's not stupid, Indigo. Please don't think of yourself as such. Family and social conditioning has a major influence as to how one approaches life.
The fact that you recognize an impediment in your life, and are working to correct it, is something to be proud of.
that is a good point. thank you✨
Excellent, I am glad that it was.
It's completely exhausting. Even being nice to reach your personal goal taxes one's mind .
For example, I'm having wrist surgery in two weeks. Monday, two days ago, I met with the surgeon. We had a bit of a verbal tussle where I reminded him he said I needed this surgery last year during my last visit. He said he did not and he hated people putting words in his mouth.
OK... so now we have my surgeon emotional. (Although I well remember him saying this, and have told others the same. ) I weighed my options with my goal in mind - to get the surgery over with.
Despite inwardly cringing, I backed down. Calmly lowered and slowed my voice then apologize and said I must have misunderstood.
Found out by keeping my voice as such his main concern is that I have an ongoing MRSA infection. The infectious disease specialist I'm working with cleared me for the surgery prior to the preop.
There was a lot of doctor wrangling/handling I needed to do afterwards. Lack of communication on their part. The operation is on.
People like us would make great FBI/CIA handlers.
Good lord, your surgeon sounds like he is placing some sort of personal issue on you head. Frankly, how would he remember whether or not he said that last year? Are you his only patient? No, of course not, but likely he is your only surgeon, so who is more likely to correctly recall that conversation? Probably the one that it affects most, which would be you.
He said this a few months ago. I'd gone to see him for a second steroid injection. Asked him how much time I had before needing surgery. To which he replied, " It should have been done last year. "
However, last year I was prepping for the lumbar fusion/vertebral disc replacement, so this issue was on the back burner.
I thought the same as you, about the personal issue, especially when he said, "I hate people putting words in my mouth."
This particular statement was what changed my tactics.
You did a great job!!! I do admire people who do what you did with him. Let me know if I can help you at CIA!!
i sincerely dislike when the patient, who has come to the doctor with a problem, has to then calm the doctor's problems (which is all too often a lack of communication that would be solved by shutting their trap).
i hope your surgery goes well
Or when therapists get messed up from what you tell them.
I have found it's best to write down the facts to straightened issues out. While completely non-emotional.
Thanks for the support and understanding, Indigo. It's happening now more than ever.
I spent years of my life trying to understand this payoff that neurotypicals get from helping each other. It never really made sense to me and what I do is mostly because I see my mom doing it (she's the kind of person who will try to help anyone, even those who are being toxic to her). It does not have much emotional impact on me if I help or get helped by someone. I tell my therapist all the time that I constantly have to make a cognitive choice to help or do something for someone because on autopilot, it doesn't cross mind quite often. An example of this was: I was with my boyfriend and I was eating chocolate sticks. He wanted some but he didn't tell me. I kept eating it until it was over. When he came to ask me, I told him it was over. He was a little upset because I didn't offer him. I shrugged and got another pack of chocolate sticks. But this time I offered. He denied. I shrugged again but then he grabbed the pack off my hands and got some sticks for him. Just like you said it on the podcast, I always think that if someone wants something from me, I expect them to ask me directly, that is asking for food, water or an old lady who wants to have her seat on a crowded subway. I really need them to ask me directly for what they want, otherwise It won't cross my mind.
I mask and try to be more considerate of others because that's how it's supposed to be (damn you, neurotypicals lol), but it drains me, it drains me a lot... Sometimes I can't even mask and I'm immediately met with "you're so inconsiderate! Think more about others..."
I mean no harm to anyone. I don't wish to cause chaos, to hurt people or anything like that, especially when I know this type of thing won't get me anywhere. However I equally find it quite unfair to be called "inconsiderate" just because I'm not acting like how neurotypicals expect me to.
Indeed, and this difference can be very difficult for people to understand. It is totally outside of their experience.
Personally, I, as a mostly neurotypical person with ADHD had to learn a lot of what you'd call "thinking of others." I made it a habit, eventually. It lightens cognitive load to make habits out of taking care of those that I trust to be there for me. The good life runs on rails. So long as I'm breathing air, I don't have to think much about breathing. It's suffocation, or the dread of it, that focuses the mind.
What really drains me is when someone is on the knife's edge in terms of whether or not they're a benefit in my life and having to manually consider every effort to judge if it's best to keep them. But if I don't do this, I risk keeping a broken stair in my household, which I will eventually put my full weight upon and tumble.
I suspect that pro-social psychopaths lack certain kinds of emotional inertia in general? Though you do try to 'keep good habits' you've said, Athena, so there's some kind of psychic inertia at play, it seems, even for you. Are you less prone to habits than most?
What do you mean by "emotional inertia"? That is a new term to me.
Sorry. It's not a technical term. I wanted a word to describe how if I feel one way yesterday that I'm likely to feel the same way tomorrow. This happens even if I don't want it to, which can be annoying when relationships end, and took some learning to manage. But judging from what you write, it seems to reduce cognitive load in the context of long term relationships.
Oh, that's interesting. No, this is not a thing I can understand. I can understand that being a bit troublesome
I can certainly see how this is a "you have to experience it to understand it" kind of thing. Logic is much more intuitive. Do you mind me asking if you feel like you're less likely to form habits in general compared to neurotypicals? You seemed to indicate at one point that you did have habits and wanted to maintain some of your pro-social ones.
Hmm, I don't know if I could say that it's harder because I notice that neurotypicals often struggle with habits, or making something routine. For me, it is a matter of deciding to do so and then sticking with the new addition.
I can say that we don’t always get a positive payback for being nice/helpful, etc., to another person or others. quite often, good deeds can result in a response ranging from lukewarm to actual contempt. Ego-driven Ntype can take the deed as a sign of naïveté or even submission, and respond in a way that makes their opinion of you clear. One measure of an ‘adult’ Ntype is having the resilience to weather this treatment, an still maintain a principle of kindness - or at least proactivity - towards others. To become hardened to the world is, to me, the real act of submission. I’m aware of your stance on trust but - for me- not trusting is, arguably, as exhausting as the mask is for you. I would caution someone who I felt was too nice, who ALWAYS put others’ wants or needs above their own (as I have, quite often to my regret) regardless of the cost, to temper their kindness by taking a mental steep back and seeing two people interacting - rather than themselves and another - and to re-evaluate the situation. This way, they learn to treat themselves with the same amount of kindness and respect that they would afford others. That’s kind of a middle ground of trust that should serve everyone’s needs well. I would rather look back on my life and see that I was better to some people than they deserved than worse. But that’s just me. I can understand that concept not holding any appeal for you, and I can’t argue against your logic of insisting others earn your trust. I believe I mentioned in a comment in one of your previous posts that one of the sad truths of life is learning who not to trust, but that’s an unavoidable rite of passage for my kind. I can’t fully recommend this way of life to anyone like you not predisposed to it, but I believe if you’re born with the ability to care (and I don’t mean this in a condescending way - it’s just a big part of me) that you have to deal with it in the best way possible. Even in the darkest of times.
I think neurotypicals can rise to great heights if they are willing to do the proper introspection and deal with these things. The thing is that emotional empathy, as I understand it, partly from one of Athena's quora posts but also from books like "Against Empathy" by Paul Bloom. Is a crutch that can make things easier because it does not require thought. Those outside emotional empathy, or with impaired emotional empathy; autists, psychopaths, schizoids, sometimes even narcissists; can quickly see though the manipulation and come along in leaps and bounds BUT, many of these types can not then get the benefit of emotional empathy + the rational understandings they have gained. They only have the latter.
But if intelligence is used by the neurotypical then they have both tools in their toolbox. They can passionately explore the relevant emotional elements, maintain the power to nurture and help others, while also having a rational understanding which prevents them being manipulated.
The converse of empathy is Ecpathy, a voluntary mental process of actively excluding feelings, attitudes, thoughts and motivations induced by others. The development of ecpathic abilities is most useful for dealing with projective identification, both in clinical and extraclinical situations, and for preventing the influence of emotional manipulation and emotional contagion.
I believe this is what people who utilize Machiavellian type strategies do. They have found that people using this life strategy tend to be higher in empathy, but they disregard it in pursuit of what they want.
WOW! JUST WOW! This is difficult for me to take in. This unmitigated selfishness goes against everything that makes humans social and want to live in society and community. And you and the others here who would call themselves all agree, along with Fallon that being nice, exchanging gifts, helping others is so unnatural that it is physically exhausting. Never realized that forcing oneself to think of others, to be considerate could be such a burden. I'm somewhat amazed but also grateful for the information. It gives me a whole new perspective about some people in my life and my expectations for them.
It is very foreign to some people to consider
Your point about exhaustion is fascinating and spot on.
My (NT) experience has been that jobs are exhausting -- largely because 95% of them involved tasks I didn't enjoy or want to do, but had to do "something" in order to pay the rent and keep groceries in the fridge and on the table. I believe this "work is exhausting" problem is true of a majority of the population -- and not just because their job involves expenditure of physical energy. Though exactly what percentage of said population feels this way is unclear.
I also believe this type of emotional exhaustion is a significant factor in why some folks go drink after work and also indulge in various "escapist" activities both after work and on weekends.
I could definitely see that being the case
For me, I devote a lot of my time towards tasks that are kind of chores. However, like when I was still in work (currently not well enough to work) I consciously define myself in a sort of semi slavery capacity. It helps. I am doing x boring thing, but this is expected, because I am a slave. I do at least have my own time though. - Including prayer and other personal practices that give me energy.
In relation to mental health in general, and all personality disorders, this is an absolutely huge factor and the elephant in the room. However, in my view, a lot of these people are unrepentant atheists (i.e. rejecting the help of spirits ready to help them if they only ask!) and will not hesitate to subject others to the same kind of bullying that they themselves are subjected to (in order to make them work harder and such). This might take the form of social ostracism or other things to anyone who is not a "team player".
So in a sense it seems to me that I could not argue against this situation being karmically justified.
Case in point ref elephant in the room, I knew a borderline girl who killed herself. There were two elements that strongly pushed this... A) Having to work when she was clearly not capable of doing so (and she had worked extremely hard her whole life, now 40, she was starting to burn out) B) Toxic female friends.
There are lots of toxic societal elements that create mental health problems that are in part, or perhaps wholly responsible for these mental issues. But these are always ignored because no one wants to offer any concessions that would reduce profit - and no one has the power to force unwilling corporations and governments. It's like saying "We want to improve the mental health of this girls boarding school but don't want to take out the rapist teachers".
Sam Vaknin recently came out with a video where he said that he is pushing to redefine mental health disorder in general to encompass the fact that most of these are heavily influenced by the societal element.
Hell is a real place.
Do you find that just being as minimally polite (rather than nice) as you have to be takes up less energy for you?
Yes, that would be accurate
I think that's good then. At least that's an alternative option you can go with sometimes.
The animal whisperer friend you talked about, how did he cultivate that personality?
Sorry this is completely unrelated to your post.
He's just always been that way
You said he was not always like that, and it was a work in progress?
You inspired me with your emotional circuit theory. Ever since I came across it, I was observing, playing, researching it and it turned out to be absolutely true. But also taken for granted to a degree that there is no research done on it whatsoever (correct me if I'm wrong).
You left out a feeling of bonding from the list of the emotional payoffs neurotypicals get out of the circuit. For neurotypicals is supposedly quite scary to imagine that one is alone in bearing a certain feeling, that one is the only one experiencing a situation in such way. It gives a feeling of isolation, alienation and is contradictory to our imprinted tribal nature. We are searching for cues and confirmations in social interactions that we are indeed sharing the same experience/feeling. This game is a deceiving one as it is logically impossible.
On the other note, I had an interesting experience few months ago when I was tripping on acid. I was alone in my room with my cats and acid was taking its course. At some point, for few brief minutes, I could interact with a cat as if our circuits would connect. I could understand cat's feelings and intentions and I could interact with the cat on these various interchanging levels, on an intentional, feeling or thought.
Of course, let's not forget I was high and my reality was severely distorted and it may all be a product of my imagination. But acid is also known for how it alters our perception. Upon reflection and some Temple Grandin's interviews I came to a theory that acid switched off my analytical part of brain and gave room to pure intuition and intuition is what cats' brain primarily work on. That's how our circuits could connect.
Do you believe this exhaustion or great effort contributes to you getting those intense headaches?
Not likely, those show up whenever they want to, so the timing doesn't work
I find polite banter is extremely helpful to me and others around me. It takes a little effort making it common to your way of communicating but I’ve worked in both polite and straightforward environments and the difference for me is striking. It is an emotional thing for me.
Thank you Athena, I always get so much out of your topics
That's very kind of you, Matson
Dear Athena, short question: the casuistry of IQ of psychopaths includes very very low percentage below 120 points? Thank you.
Finding the average IQ of criminals is a worthless metric, which is where they do such studies. You wouldn't use the average IQ of neurotypical criminals and assume it had anything to do with the outside world, but this is what they think makes sense with psychopaths? It seems the average IQ of those constructing studies is where the question should lie.
I'm not Athena, but at least some studies suggest that the average psychopath ( a term very poorly and inconsistently defined) is below 100. Studies outside of prisons are probably biased higher than those inside. So sample population is worth considering.
I speculated that psychopaths are generally above 120 points. Inteligent.
We are all across the spectrum. Some of us are very dumb, some are very smart, most probably fall along the lines of average.
hey Ryan. How are things?
In IQ, is it the average or the mean that is "100" in any sampling? I never remember.
Things are good, Tim. How are they with you?
Yes. :-) Mean, median, and mode are all types of 'average.'
Since IQ is normally distributed, they will all be the same in this case. The mean, median, and modal IQ are all 100. But considering the use of standard deviations, we're dealing with distribution around a mean.
I hope that explains the matter?
LOL. That is really and truly funny. Thank you for my smile.
Perhaps I didn't see the previous posts correctly: I thought someone posted pychopaths, as a group, post a score "less than 100". Maybe it was someone else.
Given the difficulties of the task, to truly identify pychopaths yet somehow the observation was true, as a group 99 or 98, really doesn't seem a big deal. As a group, we are 2% below average? So what?
I thought my post implies that.
On that difficulty of task part: Every post Athena has made, I try figure out if my brain is wired like hers: There is no one assisting me. There is no hotline to call to get evaluated. Professionals I speak with seem "full of sh*t".
I am sure my life is rich and full of experience. I do things others only dream of doing.
BTW, in my darker moments, if I allow myself, I do feel infinitely superior to others (in a nice way) My IQ since grade school is 144.
I am in a very strange place with diagnosis. It nags at me a little. Everything Athena says deeply resonates but some part of me still does not believe it. Right down to psychopaths not getting lines on their faces as she said. My mother and longer term friends told me when I was young, 5 ish, I just had no expressions. It used to kind of weird them out I think.
Then when Fallon comes on and says that psychopaths can love and he grieved his dog that threatened even the small experiences I felt I could count on to oppose the diagnosis.
However, a diagnosis of psychopathy is not useful. It will only hinder with stupid neurotypicals - or put more politely, diagnosis of a condition that is not generally understood and for which there is a lot of confusion. I have decided to let go of the nagging feel I should know because I realise that it does not actually effect anything in the real world. I will be going to therapy that relates to a physical disability I have (suddenly improving from this is a bit of a head trip!) During those sessions I will not be joining any particular dots for the therapist and will be attempting to charm her into not putting it together if I feel it will become an issue. (How psychopathic!?) Only if she is particularly motivated which is unlikely.
Mostly the thing it effects is self knowledge that is one of the most important things their is in my opinion. I am quite capable of pretending to myself I have an emotion I actually do not, and her materials have been part of what has allowed me to stop this.
I don't take Athena's point that psychopaths can't lie to themselves. They would have to be semi omnipotent if that were the case. I think she does not. James Fallon wrote in his book that psychopaths sometimes becomes obsessively religious and that is definitely an avenue I could see that happening.
It reminds me of a biblical quote. MANY of the thing that have allowed me to convince myself I am more caring or humanitarian than I actually am, have quite a deep sinister negative effect to them. It is like the Biblical quote 2 Corinthians 11:14: For even Satan himself, masquerades as an angel of light. -- So not that I am Satan but the thought, feeling that convinces me I am more caring has that quality; the thought if it were a physical person is like that. It pretends to be good so I grip onto it but actually it's very destructive.
Thank you for the interesting and provocative post. I look forward to more of your thoughts.
I'm catching up on issues I missed, & your comment caught my attention. Fallon's religion/psychopath connection is really curious - religion & spirituality are intertwined with emotions. NT's use them most frequently to deal with unpleasant emotions, often when they "hit bottom." Spiritual experiences also nurture emotions a psychopath might not experience like trust, awe, love, etc. So, why would a psychopath get involved with religion? They don’t need to deal with emotional pain and they don't need comfort. Wouldn't be for truth - too many conflicting narratives for truth and they point to an experience rather than offer truths.
Can you summarize his reasoning? Of course, he could he be projecting & generalizing his own uncommon (for a psychopath) emotional needs onto others who share only the diagnosis. Has anyone researched his assertion?
IIRC, Athena didn't find being formally evaluated to be worthwhile to her. (Please correct me if I'm wrong here. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth.)
You are correct, it wasn't worth the time, effort, or money
I am a neurotypical. I had to learn too, just like you, to be considerate. But once I realized this expectation I hurriedly jumped in to do it when the situation presented. I did not have to expend much energy to figure this out. And yes, it has been rewarding both ways, to give and to receive, and it does confer life giving benefits. But I think for the neurotypicals, we aren’t trying to count the cost, just trying to be there as a support and encouragement for each other because it is the thing to do. Like how we would want to be treated. And for us, you are correct, it has its own reward.
I don’t understand where the psychopathic brain’s anomalies/differences comes from. I heard you say, Athena, that the psychopath doesn’t produce Oxytocin, the bonding hormone chemical that’s present in orgasm, or to start labor or even a mother’s lactation. So then, how do psychopaths do it? Do they ever bond? Do they love? Do they love their children? I suppose though, that love is a spiritual emotion and more than just a dose of oxytocin at the appropriate moment. I’m sorry if this sounds insulting. It’s not meant to be. Just curious. I believe you said that the psychopath sees these behaviors of consideration in others and then makes a conscious decision to try them on or not, whether sometimes, or consistently. But they don’t feel it. They try acting them out because they want something and they think that this acting will get it.
I’m worried for psychopaths because the Great Commandments say to 1, Love God with all your heart mind and strength. 2, (the commandment like unto the 1st) To love your neighbor as yourself. It seems to me that the psychopath, by definition, would be incapable of loving God and loving neighbor, except by imitation of this behavior. And the choice to do it would only be for the self centered reasoning of getting life benefits by doing it. Are there psychopaths who believe in God? Do they understand God as Mercy and Love and Just Judge? Or is it all a fairytale to control the masses? I have heard you say that you do not know if God exists and that you do not worry about that. Do you know if this is true of most psychopaths? Are there any psychopathic faith filled believers out there or is this a contradiction in terms? Mostly they don’t care about the subject?
This does sound like an exhausting endeavor for so little reward if one does not experience reciprocal love, even over the little life affirming nudges like I love to give to complete strangers. If I can make someone’s day, that makes my day. And I thank the good Lord for the opportunity. Like the Good Samaritan, I’m glad I came along. Or that they came along.
It seems to me that this ability to love would be a naturally selected for ability by men and women who want the rewards of eternal life with God Our Father. And by a God who wants to preserve a people worth saving by their love. And for the perpetuation a holy people worth saving by way of the Exodus through the Parting of the Red Sea. Or by way of saving the handful of the uncorrupt on Noah’s Ark. And so forth.
For these reasons I am worried about the future of psychopaths. I never heard you say that psychopaths don’t love, but that they want what they want. In a way they might love what they want. Maybe you have talked about this. I don’t know. I do know that psychopaths are born while Sociopaths are made. Sociopaths then, have turned off their neurotypical feelings in favor of not feeling as a sort of self preservation. They could still revert away from their sociopathic mind-set if they wanted to. While psychopaths can only perform as a neurotypical in front of others, if they decide it will bring them what they want. It’s an exhausting route to create an appearance of love. But worth it for the life benefits and the expectation that it could smooth out a relationship that the psychopath wants for some reason. One wonders if God meant to select out this psych type? And if there is no God, then who cares? It wouldn’t matter. I am curious if I’ll get angry responses to my inquiries and statement. Or any confirmations.
Psychopaths do produce oxytocin, we do not process oxytocin. The oxytocin receptor in a psychopath is mutated, which disallows oxytocin from binding to it, so it passes through the system unused. We lack the ability to feel chemical love, bonding, trust, jealousy, as well as other things associated with oxytocin.
If there is a God, you would be ascribing to Him a mistake in his creation of us due to how He made us, which is not something that God is capable of. Therefore the conclusion is that we would be exactly as He intended us to be. No further consideration needs to be undertaken. That said, psychopaths do not experience activation in the "God brain" area of the brain, and faith is not something that has a necessary place in our lives. We lack what it is that people desperately seek to fill in that section of their brain. That saying, there is a God sized hole in the human heart, and if it isn't filled by God it will be filled by something, does not apply.
Don't worry about our future. We are exactly as we are meant to be. I have no need of questioning the why of existence, nor do I feel a need to impress a God for some reward later on. What happens when I die has no bearing on the life that I choose to lead, and the life I choose to lead is decided by my understanding that you create the world in which you want to live. Causing damage and chaos brings nothing but damage and chaos. I have no interest in that.
You are incorrect about sociopaths. I have a post about them and the difference between them and psychopaths that can be found here:
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/psychopathy-and-sociopathy