For me, I try and reach mutually beneficial relationships without discussing anything directly. If I have to explain what I am doing, the person’s probably not a psychopath or there is too wide a difference in our intelligence.
When it comes to mass manipulation religion is the worst of the lot. Being forced into accepting the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses for the first 18 years of my life made that abundantly clear. For many people the psychological damage lasts long after they manage to escape from these cultish communities. I’m one of the relatively lucky ones.
Yes, I agree. Some are extreme, others are not so much. When deciding to become Episcopalian three years ago it was entirely my choice to do so. I’ve thought for many years that Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Church Of The Nazarene, Seventh Day Adventists, Southern Baptist Convention, Scientology, etc. are especially manipulative because they’re so insecure about controlling their members.
Very interesting and I’m questioning my own psyche . In this read you write . . .
“I am much more inclined to question everything, and assume what I am being told about such things are suspect”.
This is how I approach the people in this world. I don’t take the first explanation from someone about a topic and question everything. And depending on how long they can last, the information I’m given I’m still not convinced. I tend to interrogate people because I just want to concrete facts. I don’t trust many people, maybe 2 I can get a straight bare bones answer from but if they get emotional as I’ve apparently crawled under their skin they walk away. No skin off my ass I thinking & their explanation, facts or opinion gets wiped from my mental slate & they’ve lost my investment & trust. If they keep trying to convince me i get more annoyed. In learning how to deal with people I smile & walk away or my filter is out the window & I tell them exactly what I’m thinking like “your full of shit, beat it or go cry to someone that cares”. I try fitting into society by “being a listener” as my mother told me to be but as her being a narcissist it made sense as to what she was really saying is. . . People love to talk about themselves and you can learn a lot about someone’s strengths & weaknesses are as she would use against anyone depending on her mood. I never told her jack shit as to what I thought unless she annoyed me then it got her in an emotional tizzy.
I learned how to deal with people by observing them and how much time to invest in someone from my father. It makes logical sense as from my reading & observing him that he was a sociopath with little patience.
I understand more how you think the more I read your Substack.
Now thinking where do I fit in in the outdated DSM V book?
Hi Athena, do you offer paid mentorships? Is it possible to pay you for 1:1 consultation, and, if so, what would an hour of your time be worth? I've noticed you like keeping your identity (at least you face) a secret. If we do decide to hop on a call, I'm perfectly okay with not seeing your face. I just believe your input would be valuable for me and would appreciate hearing it.
In case you're wondering a bit about me. I'm a 23 year old dude from Pakistan and I find your views and perspective on life quite fascinating and useful. Even as a neurotypical, they help navigate through difficult problems whether in business or life.
Business, mindset, relationships, people management, and life in general. I can't say there's anything specific I'd like your consultation on tbh but I do believe you'll have, at the very least, a unique insight on whatever I require help with.
My friend said force and compulsion that can be backed by force works pretty well on psychopaths. It becomes clear as day, "Yup, that guy can force me so I'll just do it".
In that sense I assume psychopaths are the least likely to die in a gun blaze shoot out with the cops, and we do see that emotionally unstable bipolar hyper-normies are the ones who tend to go out that way.
I would agree with him. My Significant Other can pick me up and put me somewhere else if I don't hear the word, "no", to whatever it is I want to do, and he finds overtly dangerous. I think that works in a similar way.
That is useful information, a normal person would freak out btw.
I was also thinking about other stereotypical examples of psychopathy-as-social-awareness. A prisoner who obediently goes back to his cell every day and the very first day the guard isn't there he just walks out. No hullabaloo, no open rebellion for months leading up to a triumphant escape, no stockholm syndrome guilt just obedience to force and immediate action as soon as the force is gone. Or the clerk who shows up to work every day until the security camera doesn't work and that's the day he takes the cash, and he's so unemotionally nonchalant no-guilt the next day when the camera's back on that no one suspects them of anything.
That's how I imagine psychopathy, at least. Normal people emotionally agitate before and after such scenarios. And Normies watching say, "Woah, the psychopath was just waiting for their chance what a cold blooded sicko" while the new explanation is, "Psychopaths are acutely aware of force dynamics and unaware of emotional dynamics, normal people are largely misdiagnose force dynamics and acutely aware of emotional ones".
You’ve given examples which would contradict this though?
Such as physically standing between your sisters then abusive partner and her, despite the risk of violence, which presumably you couldn’t fight against.
Also staring down 2 Rottweilers when a teenager & confronting a male who was following you with bad intent.
Manipulation is a very interesting topic. Most of my coworkers at the IT department I worked at was extremely manipulative. They were constantly trying to steal ideas, trying to take credit for other peoples work, and trying to manipulate project plans to their advantage.
I used to believe that they had psychopathic traits, but over time I realized that there were simply too many of them. They couldn't all be psychopaths. And eventually - I came to the conclusion that they are all just neurotypicals, also because none of them had any guts when the shit hit the fan. The manipulation was obvious to me, but they were probably playing their manipulation game without really being aware of it.
Or, they think it's normal behavior. I find it fascinating how much most neurotypicals deny the fact they're manipulative, and how offended they are when I point it out. Very interesting.
I admire the way psychopaths deal with fear — or rather, how they don’t seem to experience it at all. I had the opportunity to talk to a few who were under security measures in a psychiatric clinic. In my country, this kind of institutionalization is an alternative to imprisonment, but with an indefinite duration. They genuinely posed a real threat to society. During the brief moments I spoke with them, they seemed like completely normal people. I asked about their perception of fear, and to them — or rather, in their minds — nothing could ever go wrong.
In a way, I believe that too, though with more moderation. Fear, most of the time, is useless — it gets in the way more than it helps. It paralyzes, blocks action, and creates barriers that aren’t always necessary.
They seemed pretty normal while talking — at least on the surface, each with their own personality, of course. Still, I felt a slight unease because of their criminal background. Even so, I found it more interesting to talk to them than to some of the schizophrenic patients, who often looked frightened — some even seemed desperate.
I don't know that I agree with thinking nothing could go wrong. I can understand that a sagging sixth floor hallway has risks, I just don't think I will be the one to deal with said risks.
Hi Athena, Have you read this Atlantic article? I suspect that you will have criticisms of the experiments used to make the conclusions discussed in the article—starting with the use of a prison population as subjects, and the use of Hare’s checklist to identify psychopaths.
I am not a fan of this author’s reporting. During the early days of the pandemic, Ed Yong wrote an article trashing the results of a close friend of mine (because he took the word of some prominent male mathematicians without looking carefully at my friend’s impeccably solid data). Even after the results were known to be positively correct, he never had the guts to apologize to her and admit to his error (as others who made the same misjudgment did). What I found particularly galling was that he got a Pulitzer Prize for his reporting on Covid!
I’m always curious about your take on articles of this sort. You have a better grip on what is and isn’t a characteristic of psychopathy than anyone I have ever encountered.
For me, I try and reach mutually beneficial relationships without discussing anything directly. If I have to explain what I am doing, the person’s probably not a psychopath or there is too wide a difference in our intelligence.
When it comes to mass manipulation religion is the worst of the lot. Being forced into accepting the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses for the first 18 years of my life made that abundantly clear. For many people the psychological damage lasts long after they manage to escape from these cultish communities. I’m one of the relatively lucky ones.
Religion tends to be a mixed bag
Yes, I agree. Some are extreme, others are not so much. When deciding to become Episcopalian three years ago it was entirely my choice to do so. I’ve thought for many years that Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Church Of The Nazarene, Seventh Day Adventists, Southern Baptist Convention, Scientology, etc. are especially manipulative because they’re so insecure about controlling their members.
It being a choice is such an important part of it.
I'm glad that you were able to find your way to seeing through the brain washing. I can well imagine!
Very interesting and I’m questioning my own psyche . In this read you write . . .
“I am much more inclined to question everything, and assume what I am being told about such things are suspect”.
This is how I approach the people in this world. I don’t take the first explanation from someone about a topic and question everything. And depending on how long they can last, the information I’m given I’m still not convinced. I tend to interrogate people because I just want to concrete facts. I don’t trust many people, maybe 2 I can get a straight bare bones answer from but if they get emotional as I’ve apparently crawled under their skin they walk away. No skin off my ass I thinking & their explanation, facts or opinion gets wiped from my mental slate & they’ve lost my investment & trust. If they keep trying to convince me i get more annoyed. In learning how to deal with people I smile & walk away or my filter is out the window & I tell them exactly what I’m thinking like “your full of shit, beat it or go cry to someone that cares”. I try fitting into society by “being a listener” as my mother told me to be but as her being a narcissist it made sense as to what she was really saying is. . . People love to talk about themselves and you can learn a lot about someone’s strengths & weaknesses are as she would use against anyone depending on her mood. I never told her jack shit as to what I thought unless she annoyed me then it got her in an emotional tizzy.
I learned how to deal with people by observing them and how much time to invest in someone from my father. It makes logical sense as from my reading & observing him that he was a sociopath with little patience.
I understand more how you think the more I read your Substack.
Now thinking where do I fit in in the outdated DSM V book?
Anyhow Good Read 👍🏻
Thank you, and I wouldn't worry about where you fit into an insurance manual. That's like wondering where you lie in the OSHA guidelines.
Hi Athena, do you offer paid mentorships? Is it possible to pay you for 1:1 consultation, and, if so, what would an hour of your time be worth? I've noticed you like keeping your identity (at least you face) a secret. If we do decide to hop on a call, I'm perfectly okay with not seeing your face. I just believe your input would be valuable for me and would appreciate hearing it.
In case you're wondering a bit about me. I'm a 23 year old dude from Pakistan and I find your views and perspective on life quite fascinating and useful. Even as a neurotypical, they help navigate through difficult problems whether in business or life.
Looking forward to your response.
What exactly do you want my consultation on?
Business, mindset, relationships, people management, and life in general. I can't say there's anything specific I'd like your consultation on tbh but I do believe you'll have, at the very least, a unique insight on whatever I require help with.
You could just do a paid subscription to my Substack and message me questions, if you like
aight
My friend said force and compulsion that can be backed by force works pretty well on psychopaths. It becomes clear as day, "Yup, that guy can force me so I'll just do it".
In that sense I assume psychopaths are the least likely to die in a gun blaze shoot out with the cops, and we do see that emotionally unstable bipolar hyper-normies are the ones who tend to go out that way.
I would agree with him. My Significant Other can pick me up and put me somewhere else if I don't hear the word, "no", to whatever it is I want to do, and he finds overtly dangerous. I think that works in a similar way.
That is useful information, a normal person would freak out btw.
I was also thinking about other stereotypical examples of psychopathy-as-social-awareness. A prisoner who obediently goes back to his cell every day and the very first day the guard isn't there he just walks out. No hullabaloo, no open rebellion for months leading up to a triumphant escape, no stockholm syndrome guilt just obedience to force and immediate action as soon as the force is gone. Or the clerk who shows up to work every day until the security camera doesn't work and that's the day he takes the cash, and he's so unemotionally nonchalant no-guilt the next day when the camera's back on that no one suspects them of anything.
That's how I imagine psychopathy, at least. Normal people emotionally agitate before and after such scenarios. And Normies watching say, "Woah, the psychopath was just waiting for their chance what a cold blooded sicko" while the new explanation is, "Psychopaths are acutely aware of force dynamics and unaware of emotional dynamics, normal people are largely misdiagnose force dynamics and acutely aware of emotional ones".
I think that is a fair assessment
You’ve given examples which would contradict this though?
Such as physically standing between your sisters then abusive partner and her, despite the risk of violence, which presumably you couldn’t fight against.
Also staring down 2 Rottweilers when a teenager & confronting a male who was following you with bad intent.
How are those contradictory?
My sister was necessary action, and the rotties were as well.
Manipulation is a very interesting topic. Most of my coworkers at the IT department I worked at was extremely manipulative. They were constantly trying to steal ideas, trying to take credit for other peoples work, and trying to manipulate project plans to their advantage.
I used to believe that they had psychopathic traits, but over time I realized that there were simply too many of them. They couldn't all be psychopaths. And eventually - I came to the conclusion that they are all just neurotypicals, also because none of them had any guts when the shit hit the fan. The manipulation was obvious to me, but they were probably playing their manipulation game without really being aware of it.
Or, they think it's normal behavior. I find it fascinating how much most neurotypicals deny the fact they're manipulative, and how offended they are when I point it out. Very interesting.
I admire the way psychopaths deal with fear — or rather, how they don’t seem to experience it at all. I had the opportunity to talk to a few who were under security measures in a psychiatric clinic. In my country, this kind of institutionalization is an alternative to imprisonment, but with an indefinite duration. They genuinely posed a real threat to society. During the brief moments I spoke with them, they seemed like completely normal people. I asked about their perception of fear, and to them — or rather, in their minds — nothing could ever go wrong.
In a way, I believe that too, though with more moderation. Fear, most of the time, is useless — it gets in the way more than it helps. It paralyzes, blocks action, and creates barriers that aren’t always necessary.
What do you think about that?
They seemed pretty normal while talking — at least on the surface, each with their own personality, of course. Still, I felt a slight unease because of their criminal background. Even so, I found it more interesting to talk to them than to some of the schizophrenic patients, who often looked frightened — some even seemed desperate.
I can't imagine what living in a brain that you cannot trust would be like. It sounds unfortunate.
I don't know that I agree with thinking nothing could go wrong. I can understand that a sagging sixth floor hallway has risks, I just don't think I will be the one to deal with said risks.
It took some time but it was one of the best life decisions I’ve ever made.
Hi Athena, Have you read this Atlantic article? I suspect that you will have criticisms of the experiments used to make the conclusions discussed in the article—starting with the use of a prison population as subjects, and the use of Hare’s checklist to identify psychopaths.
I am not a fan of this author’s reporting. During the early days of the pandemic, Ed Yong wrote an article trashing the results of a close friend of mine (because he took the word of some prominent male mathematicians without looking carefully at my friend’s impeccably solid data). Even after the results were known to be positively correct, he never had the guts to apologize to her and admit to his error (as others who made the same misjudgment did). What I found particularly galling was that he got a Pulitzer Prize for his reporting on Covid!
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/03/a-hidden-problem-at-the-heart-of-psychopathy/555335/?gift=UGm0hckikPTAkh8K3GlswyYjqPq8cgqD1UN1-5FDEFo
I haven't seen it, but am happy to do a write up if you would like.
I’m always curious about your take on articles of this sort. You have a better grip on what is and isn’t a characteristic of psychopathy than anyone I have ever encountered.
I will do so, then
Thanks!!