Jesus, I've been waiting for this and you did not disappoint. This whole piece reminded me of the movie Jacob's Ladder. This entire experiment was cruel and unusual and really disgusting. I'm so sorry for those young men. But I can't say that I am shocked. Terrible experiments have been done on many people over the decades, I mean if they can inject African American enlisted men with Syphilis (pretty sure it was that) then even all the talk about mkultra isn't really inconceivable. Thank you Athena.
I don't think that the syphilis experiment was on enlisted men. There are the Tuskegee airmen, and the Tuskegee experiment. They are distinctly different, though they share the same name.
Yeah, it's like trying to recreate a hell dimension or something. What made them think that trying to get inside the minds of people they considered malevolent would bring out psyche that could then be therapied? It could conceivably have brought out actual malevolence.
The world would be far safer with two shots to the back of the head of the people designing that experiment.
There are a lot of experiments that are on public record that are extremely unethical. The thalomide instance in vaccine research as an example. There is a lot of biological research that is the face of evil that has been tested on humans, and not in the "conspiracy" domain.
Your comment about what should be done with the creators of this experiment reminded me of a conversation I had about the death penalty a while back that was even more ironic in light of some recent events.
There was a morbid discussion about the "best way" and as odd as it sounds I'm not necessarily a fan of the death penalty. My suggestions was that when fully convicted and all appeals finished that the convict be allowed to make a run for it in something like a WWII minisub which would be stocked with assorted illicit drugs like heroin and cocaine.
I was amused at the reactions that got, "You may as well just shoot them" etc.
Well, that is a kind of complex discussion. The comment was not actually saying that's what should be done from an ethical standpoint it's just a relevant fact that if there were two shots to the back of each of the researchers... No one would be put through the experience of trying to create a hell dimension by their hand.
I imagine in real life charges could not be brought against them since it all happened in a consentual manner, and I imagine researchers do need a long leash I believe to discover some things.
The trouble with your suggestion of setting up things to allow them to self destruct for our amusement is that NT's would run away with that too easily. Plus the justice system is pretty incompetant in my understanding, lots of innocent people locked up. In groups, NT's do loads of nasty stuff due to "justifications", such as when the Romans put Christians in a dome and watched lions eat them.
Another aspect of this is that there are pretty heinous crimes I think it would be difficult to justify not having the death penalty against. For instance, one female torturer of a ten year old girl, created a bath of boiling water and forced the girl into it. 70% of her skin flaked off and she went into a coma. There are many things of this sort of sadism such as "red rooms". It seems unlikely someone with this kind of mindset will ever make a useful contribution to society.
Yay or Nay on the death penalty is not something I have a conclusion on. There are points either way.
Hey Tim not sure if my reply came through but I adored Jacob's Ladder I can watch that again and again (I have!). Just to let you know as per your suggestion I just watched that Black Mirror episode and whoa.....Thank you for that!
OMG!! You really made my day!! YW. So glad you enjoy!!! Did you feel the same as me? These both smack us in the face and demand our attention.
The first time I see Jacob's Ladder was with friends and of course is profoundly disturbing. Everyone of us wanted to re-watch again: Immediately!!
Obviously Black Mirror crew were keenly aware of the film, too. Somewhere we will find the director (at least) watched in preparation for the new shoot.
Have you seen Jakob (Jacob?) the Liar with Robin Williams? Filmed BEFORE 911- Robin is waterboarded in the film!!
Now I don't watch ONLY distributing films!! Another favorite on Black Mirror is Joan is Awful!! But I adore both Salma Hayek and Annie Murphy: Pure Glory of their scenes together.
I think it was filmed during the writer's strike and our (lack of attention) to AI and the Arts.
Best wishes. Thanks again for your very kind words!
Holy crap. Even looking aside the whole angle of "fixing psychopathic insanity" that was anything but an ideal therapeutic setting to administer psychadelic drugs.
I'm starting to relize that in those times, "psychopathy" was used as a blanket term for people showing absent empathy regardless of etiology or diagnostic framework, and "sanity" seems to have been equated with "empathy". So the term "psychopath" would then likely encompass many people with PD's while possibly missing many functional psychopaths who are far more apt at managing their emotions, skillfully crafting their public image, and wisely safeguarding their privacy.
Although this got me thinking, and I did come across some other recent experiments along comparable lines that are arguably not as unhinged (or custom made by "war on drugs" type groups of interest). Like this one that revolved around psylocybin and merely sought to investigate if it would help raise emotional empathy in aggressive people, although it ultimately did not change moral decision-making once the subjects returned to their baseline (not surprisingly to anyone who's ever been to rave parties, since that seems to be how those substances affect most people):
These findings provide first evidence that psilocybin has distinct effects on social cognition by enhancing emotional empathy but not moral behavior. Furthermore, together with previous findings, psilocybin appears to promote emotional empathy presumably via activation of serotonin 2A/1A receptors, suggesting that targeting serotonin 2A/1A receptors has implications for potential treatment of dysfunctional social cognition."
I'm wondering Athena - I know that most prescription drugs tend to have erratic effects on you, and it seems you are not at all inclined to dabble in illicit drugs. But is there any substance (wine, even some foods) that gives you a sort of temporary silly heartwarming type mood that feels foreign to your normal experience? Do you ever have inklings of emotional empathy in any circumstance, even if fleeting?
The startle response, or startle reflex, is not a fear response, nor is it an emotional response. It originates in the primal area of the brain, the brain stem. It is a prehistoric danger response system. Emotions do not come into play.
The startle reflex is a brainstem reflectory reaction (reflex) that serves to protect vulnerable parts, such as the back of the neck (whole-body startle) and the eyes (eyeblink) and facilitates escape from sudden stimuli. It is found across the expanse of many species.
Psychopaths still have this response without the emotional aspects to it, however, the response is still muted for us. Fight or flight fires, the fear response does not. The initial startle would occur. A freakout would not.
Thank you very much for your though and kind reply. Involuntary reaction at a brainstem level- Dammit!! Just makes me smile so much- And in many other species!!! Cool!
Your whole work and writing helps explain the world and of course, myself.
It took some time but I remember I was frightened, scared actually, when I was younger, 50 years ago now, terrified. To now, I considered I might be wired like you, but I am not: I know for sure, I was frightened.
Thank you. Not that I am not like you, but that I know! -smiles- You remain the most interesting person I know. I hope you will keep on writing. And this is that workbook to publish!! haha. Best to you Athena!
I admit that I would love to see their faces when the so renewed "psychopaths" went out and ended up killing, like taming a lion and dying in your own sleep. Haha. I laughed, indeed. But yeah! There's gotta be a huge revamp on psychopathy concept, because with this experiment and many other situations, All I see is "this person did bad things, pretty bad things. They're a psychopath" over and over again. And to think they actually tried to "cure it" with psychodelics is freaking hilarious! *Several violent facepalms*... That reminds me of a scene of the game "Watch dogs 2" where the autistic character mentions the use of drugs (or something like it) to treat autism. When those people will realize and accept that psychopathy is just a different way of brain wiring?
It also reminds me of the use of Extasy to increase the ability of emotional empathy of a sociopath. However I don't know much about it and how legit this information actually is
I have to suspect that this entire idea of young men being chained together naked and tripping was born of some homo-erotic fantasy that Elliot had. I can’t get past that aspect of it. Or, it could be some sadistic sociopathic activity. I know a sociopath who would think this is a genius way to play with people’s heads.
"Hi, welcome to the Green room. Please remove your clothes. They will be returned in 11 days."
Great work, Athena.!.
I first used LSD, high quality, when I was 16. I conversed quite easily with the apples growing on the tree in my yard. They had a lot to say and seemed quite opinionated.
Many times I write while high, confident I am UN-locking God's mysteries. However, I lose the ability to form actual, known words. My writing starts out hopeful but quickly becomes gibberish though sometimes cool lines and markings.
Though lots of fun, nothing about tripping will ever 'fix" anything.
Hey Tim I adored Jacob's Ladder and I've watched it so many times and I never tire of it. I know it's considered horror genre but I also believe there's hard core truth in it and a lot of beauty. Very layered film imo. I tried watching Black Mirror but I became a bit bored with it I'm sorry to say but thanks for the suggestion Tim!
I apologize again talk to text. No proof reading. Then your valid point your trying to make there for Becomes invalid Never had any social media no computer experience? I'm only trying to interact with my community.
I really want to give up the fight In that I mean as a psychopath don't you see all this in all this latently false outdated audiology? Then it's still in textbooks what current you start to see it. As an actual war on information like well we can get this information to these peo Are eaglesple. It would help us for these underlying reasons or this scenario introduced to this part of the. Psychopathic psychiatric ps Miss doctor complacencyychiatric community inevitably have this effect. Completely devoid of reality or logic in any fashion but seems to be based completely from my bist self serving point of view. You know? What. I? Put. Myself as influencer in this field. Me phD doctorComplacency by the way that's Miss Dr. To you And by the way the next time you interact with me and call me by my first name and not Doctor are these the type of people that should weighting on in on our egos on???????????? Sidebar do you view a psychopath say en? The Marine Corps who let's say has 4 confirmed kills in combat. What are your views on data? Honestly I want everyone's opinion cause. I think it should happen more often and I don't believe they should have to hide. Then maybe They can be honest with their relationships with them in the past. Due to so much worry a public scrutiny that they would really. Prefer that if that individually exist that they were just die. You know if they would just disappear we wouldn't have to have this discussion. We wouldn't have our own people within our own country. So terrified by the idea but then it comes oh my God. What if the UN finds out? If they perform well and there was no consequences only extremely positive results but it's so taboo That their treatment thereafter becomes becomes in and of it self the most nefarious an entire scenario X explain. How that could be good when we could just be honest?
Jesus, I've been waiting for this and you did not disappoint. This whole piece reminded me of the movie Jacob's Ladder. This entire experiment was cruel and unusual and really disgusting. I'm so sorry for those young men. But I can't say that I am shocked. Terrible experiments have been done on many people over the decades, I mean if they can inject African American enlisted men with Syphilis (pretty sure it was that) then even all the talk about mkultra isn't really inconceivable. Thank you Athena.
I don't think that the syphilis experiment was on enlisted men. There are the Tuskegee airmen, and the Tuskegee experiment. They are distinctly different, though they share the same name.
Yeah, it's like trying to recreate a hell dimension or something. What made them think that trying to get inside the minds of people they considered malevolent would bring out psyche that could then be therapied? It could conceivably have brought out actual malevolence.
The world would be far safer with two shots to the back of the head of the people designing that experiment.
There are a lot of experiments that are on public record that are extremely unethical. The thalomide instance in vaccine research as an example. There is a lot of biological research that is the face of evil that has been tested on humans, and not in the "conspiracy" domain.
Your comment about what should be done with the creators of this experiment reminded me of a conversation I had about the death penalty a while back that was even more ironic in light of some recent events.
There was a morbid discussion about the "best way" and as odd as it sounds I'm not necessarily a fan of the death penalty. My suggestions was that when fully convicted and all appeals finished that the convict be allowed to make a run for it in something like a WWII minisub which would be stocked with assorted illicit drugs like heroin and cocaine.
I was amused at the reactions that got, "You may as well just shoot them" etc.
neurotypicals seem so odd to me sometimes
Well, that is a kind of complex discussion. The comment was not actually saying that's what should be done from an ethical standpoint it's just a relevant fact that if there were two shots to the back of each of the researchers... No one would be put through the experience of trying to create a hell dimension by their hand.
I imagine in real life charges could not be brought against them since it all happened in a consentual manner, and I imagine researchers do need a long leash I believe to discover some things.
The trouble with your suggestion of setting up things to allow them to self destruct for our amusement is that NT's would run away with that too easily. Plus the justice system is pretty incompetant in my understanding, lots of innocent people locked up. In groups, NT's do loads of nasty stuff due to "justifications", such as when the Romans put Christians in a dome and watched lions eat them.
Another aspect of this is that there are pretty heinous crimes I think it would be difficult to justify not having the death penalty against. For instance, one female torturer of a ten year old girl, created a bath of boiling water and forced the girl into it. 70% of her skin flaked off and she went into a coma. There are many things of this sort of sadism such as "red rooms". It seems unlikely someone with this kind of mindset will ever make a useful contribution to society.
Yay or Nay on the death penalty is not something I have a conclusion on. There are points either way.
hey Alicia: did you enjoy Jacob's Ladder as a horrific film?
If so, have you seen Black Mirror Season 3 ep 5 Men against Fire? It seems at least related or even a re-adaptation of the theme.
Hey Tim not sure if my reply came through but I adored Jacob's Ladder I can watch that again and again (I have!). Just to let you know as per your suggestion I just watched that Black Mirror episode and whoa.....Thank you for that!
OMG!! You really made my day!! YW. So glad you enjoy!!! Did you feel the same as me? These both smack us in the face and demand our attention.
The first time I see Jacob's Ladder was with friends and of course is profoundly disturbing. Everyone of us wanted to re-watch again: Immediately!!
Obviously Black Mirror crew were keenly aware of the film, too. Somewhere we will find the director (at least) watched in preparation for the new shoot.
Have you seen Jakob (Jacob?) the Liar with Robin Williams? Filmed BEFORE 911- Robin is waterboarded in the film!!
Now I don't watch ONLY distributing films!! Another favorite on Black Mirror is Joan is Awful!! But I adore both Salma Hayek and Annie Murphy: Pure Glory of their scenes together.
I think it was filmed during the writer's strike and our (lack of attention) to AI and the Arts.
Best wishes. Thanks again for your very kind words!
Tim ❤
Holy crap. Even looking aside the whole angle of "fixing psychopathic insanity" that was anything but an ideal therapeutic setting to administer psychadelic drugs.
I'm starting to relize that in those times, "psychopathy" was used as a blanket term for people showing absent empathy regardless of etiology or diagnostic framework, and "sanity" seems to have been equated with "empathy". So the term "psychopath" would then likely encompass many people with PD's while possibly missing many functional psychopaths who are far more apt at managing their emotions, skillfully crafting their public image, and wisely safeguarding their privacy.
Although this got me thinking, and I did come across some other recent experiments along comparable lines that are arguably not as unhinged (or custom made by "war on drugs" type groups of interest). Like this one that revolved around psylocybin and merely sought to investigate if it would help raise emotional empathy in aggressive people, although it ultimately did not change moral decision-making once the subjects returned to their baseline (not surprisingly to anyone who's ever been to rave parties, since that seems to be how those substances affect most people):
https://academic.oup.com/ijnp/article/20/9/747/3868840
"Conclusions
These findings provide first evidence that psilocybin has distinct effects on social cognition by enhancing emotional empathy but not moral behavior. Furthermore, together with previous findings, psilocybin appears to promote emotional empathy presumably via activation of serotonin 2A/1A receptors, suggesting that targeting serotonin 2A/1A receptors has implications for potential treatment of dysfunctional social cognition."
I'm wondering Athena - I know that most prescription drugs tend to have erratic effects on you, and it seems you are not at all inclined to dabble in illicit drugs. But is there any substance (wine, even some foods) that gives you a sort of temporary silly heartwarming type mood that feels foreign to your normal experience? Do you ever have inklings of emotional empathy in any circumstance, even if fleeting?
Nope, not a one
I love this about you Athena. You know enough about it (emotional empathy) to answer, even though you don't experience it at all.
"Fleeting"!! hehehe.
Athena, I'm writing here 6/22 in the evening.
Is being "startled", a loud sound, suddenly, out of the blue, a experience of fear?
More simply: Do you experience being startled?
The startle response, or startle reflex, is not a fear response, nor is it an emotional response. It originates in the primal area of the brain, the brain stem. It is a prehistoric danger response system. Emotions do not come into play.
The startle reflex is a brainstem reflectory reaction (reflex) that serves to protect vulnerable parts, such as the back of the neck (whole-body startle) and the eyes (eyeblink) and facilitates escape from sudden stimuli. It is found across the expanse of many species.
Psychopaths still have this response without the emotional aspects to it, however, the response is still muted for us. Fight or flight fires, the fear response does not. The initial startle would occur. A freakout would not.
Thank you very much for your though and kind reply. Involuntary reaction at a brainstem level- Dammit!! Just makes me smile so much- And in many other species!!! Cool!
Your whole work and writing helps explain the world and of course, myself.
It took some time but I remember I was frightened, scared actually, when I was younger, 50 years ago now, terrified. To now, I considered I might be wired like you, but I am not: I know for sure, I was frightened.
Thank you. Not that I am not like you, but that I know! -smiles- You remain the most interesting person I know. I hope you will keep on writing. And this is that workbook to publish!! haha. Best to you Athena!
It is always good to know who you are
I wrote many additional replies to this!! (deleted all)
Thank you, though. I can say "thanks". It is very healthy to try even if I can not post.
have a wonderful weekend! Please do something nice for yourself.
You stole this from Shakespeare!!- hehehe
You always make me think and ponder.
Selah.
I admit that I would love to see their faces when the so renewed "psychopaths" went out and ended up killing, like taming a lion and dying in your own sleep. Haha. I laughed, indeed. But yeah! There's gotta be a huge revamp on psychopathy concept, because with this experiment and many other situations, All I see is "this person did bad things, pretty bad things. They're a psychopath" over and over again. And to think they actually tried to "cure it" with psychodelics is freaking hilarious! *Several violent facepalms*... That reminds me of a scene of the game "Watch dogs 2" where the autistic character mentions the use of drugs (or something like it) to treat autism. When those people will realize and accept that psychopathy is just a different way of brain wiring?
It also reminds me of the use of Extasy to increase the ability of emotional empathy of a sociopath. However I don't know much about it and how legit this information actually is
People really do think that neurotypicality is the only way to be considered "normal". If you aren't neurotypical, you have to be fixed.
Exactly.. I wonder when they will finally see that this is a big misconception
I doubt that it will happen any time soon.
I have to suspect that this entire idea of young men being chained together naked and tripping was born of some homo-erotic fantasy that Elliot had. I can’t get past that aspect of it. Or, it could be some sadistic sociopathic activity. I know a sociopath who would think this is a genius way to play with people’s heads.
That would not in any way surprise me
Or what if that conversation went something like:
- Man, this LSD shit is soooo expensive.
- Yup; and it’s kinda hard to get, plus the wait time and the cop problem… so annoying.
- Wait, what if we could have as much as we want, legally, for free and with a fun live show to spice up the trips?
- Whooooo, yeah, that’d be fucking awesome.
Fast forward a couple of weeks and Elliott’s Capsule opened its doors to help poor little “psychopaths” get a better life.
Inspirational story indeed, is it not?
I could see that happening
Oh ok my bad thanks for the intel but I think you follow my point. 💖💖
Indeed
I know that it's wrong to laugh at the buffoons who perpetrated this....I don't have a word for what this is. I'll just fall back on my go to
Judas Priest on a pony
It's certainly something all right
hahaha!! I love that expression!! I haven't stolen it from you but I plan to on my next USA trip
When you know something is amuck:
"Hi, welcome to the Green room. Please remove your clothes. They will be returned in 11 days."
Great work, Athena.!.
I first used LSD, high quality, when I was 16. I conversed quite easily with the apples growing on the tree in my yard. They had a lot to say and seemed quite opinionated.
Many times I write while high, confident I am UN-locking God's mysteries. However, I lose the ability to form actual, known words. My writing starts out hopeful but quickly becomes gibberish though sometimes cool lines and markings.
Though lots of fun, nothing about tripping will ever 'fix" anything.
Hey Tim I adored Jacob's Ladder and I've watched it so many times and I never tire of it. I know it's considered horror genre but I also believe there's hard core truth in it and a lot of beauty. Very layered film imo. I tried watching Black Mirror but I became a bit bored with it I'm sorry to say but thanks for the suggestion Tim!
I apologize again talk to text. No proof reading. Then your valid point your trying to make there for Becomes invalid Never had any social media no computer experience? I'm only trying to interact with my community.
I really want to give up the fight In that I mean as a psychopath don't you see all this in all this latently false outdated audiology? Then it's still in textbooks what current you start to see it. As an actual war on information like well we can get this information to these peo Are eaglesple. It would help us for these underlying reasons or this scenario introduced to this part of the. Psychopathic psychiatric ps Miss doctor complacencyychiatric community inevitably have this effect. Completely devoid of reality or logic in any fashion but seems to be based completely from my bist self serving point of view. You know? What. I? Put. Myself as influencer in this field. Me phD doctorComplacency by the way that's Miss Dr. To you And by the way the next time you interact with me and call me by my first name and not Doctor are these the type of people that should weighting on in on our egos on???????????? Sidebar do you view a psychopath say en? The Marine Corps who let's say has 4 confirmed kills in combat. What are your views on data? Honestly I want everyone's opinion cause. I think it should happen more often and I don't believe they should have to hide. Then maybe They can be honest with their relationships with them in the past. Due to so much worry a public scrutiny that they would really. Prefer that if that individually exist that they were just die. You know if they would just disappear we wouldn't have to have this discussion. We wouldn't have our own people within our own country. So terrified by the idea but then it comes oh my God. What if the UN finds out? If they perform well and there was no consequences only extremely positive results but it's so taboo That their treatment thereafter becomes becomes in and of it self the most nefarious an entire scenario X explain. How that could be good when we could just be honest?