These points are why I stopped buying Christmas gifts. I have no idea what anyone may want and I can no longer make even an educated guess. They shouldn't have complained about the Burger King gift cards I bought everyone a few years ago
I live scratches , gift cards and cash money as gifts . Up here in Canada, people are scamming the gift cards and you have to make sure it wasn't scratched and then p
Glue to plastic covering back in. When you pay and a private, they just got a $100, etc. Buyer beware!
I suspect there are people who are as incapable of learning how to be cognitively empathetic as you are at feeling emotionally empathetic. Learning cognitive empathy requires a certain set of analytical skills, as well as an ability to detect when behavioral patterns are associated with a person’s state of mind. It also requires that the person is driven to develop those skills because they need them to survive.
Relatively speaking, you appear to have very well developed cognitive empathy skills. You intuitively understood how critical they were for your survival in a normative world. I am neurodivergent in very different ways than you are. I am super-sensitive on an emotional level to what people’s tone sounds like and whether they are being dismissive or embracing. As a child, I could get hurt very easily. Consequently, I, too, needed to develop strong cognitive empathy skills so I could learn how to not overreact or misinterpret other people’s intent.
As I matured, I learned how much of my emotional interpretations of others’ intent was projection, and how often what appears to be a criticism of me was merely the other person feeling the emotional need to defend themselves. Rarely did I find that one’s intent was focused on deliberately hurting the other person. You appeared to have figured that out, though you came at it from a very different angle.
I imagine that it is easier to navigate social interactions if you have both emotional and cognitive empathy. The information you gather from both works hand in hand to make sense out of human behavior. So I am always impressed to learn how well you have developed cognitive empathy without having ever experienced emotions like pain, loneliness, fear, anger and shame—because so much of human behavior is a response to those emotions.
I have also come to realize that unless someone experiences a psychic, emotional or physical state on a visceral level, they cannot ever truly understand it in others. That’s why highly neuro-normative people haven’t a clue what neurodivergent people experience in life—and why people who are neurodivergent in very different ways often cannot connect well.
Something you once told me underscored that point: I asked you once if you could imagine why someone might choose to put another person’s needs over their own. You responded that you could not. I assumed that that was because your brain does not have the wiring necessary to generate the feeling of guilt or a need to be viewed as a person capable of sacrificing for others. So having never had those feelings, how could you possible imagine them. It’s important that people understand that that is by no means a choice you have made—and that your actions, or the lack thereof, have nothing to do with anyone other than yourself. I suspect that people who lack cognitive empathy are unlikely to understand that.
I can see what you mean. It's an interesting thing to think that someone would be incapable of cognitive empathy. I suppose it is my own limitations speaking when I think that if they tried hard enough, they would be able to manage it, and that lack of will would be standing in the way, instead of incapability.
I can imagine that even a psychopath might be able to put someone else's needs above their own if it were in the service of some greater good, such as doing their part to keep the planet from getting blown up by pathological relationship patterns gone out of control on an international scale.
They might say to themselves, "Sure, I could prioritize my own self-interest here, but if everyone on the planet started doing likewise, some conflict would eventually rage out of control and the planet would get blown up."
Of course, not wanting to have the planet blown up could be considered a matter of self-interest. But it does illustrate that sometimes there is a need in specific instances to put someone else's needs before one's own, even in the service of one's own ultimate self-interest.
I would agree that comes back to self-interest. I believe you create the world you want to live through your actions. Those actions are self-interested actions. The action of preventing the world from exploding would come from the same place.
"As I matured, I learned how much of my emotional interpretations of others’ intent was projection, and how often what appears to be a criticism of me was merely the other person feeling the emotional need to defend themselves. Rarely did I find that one’s intent was focused on deliberately hurting the other person."
And the last part reminded me of Hanlon's razor:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".
Your point is spot on about not saying what one wants.
I once had a very good friend who never called me. That is, after several years of our friendship, I realized that I was always the one who called her, never her calling me. I decided that the next phone call we had would be from her. But I didn't tell her my decision. And so, she stayed true to her pattern and didn't call. Two decades went past. Then I ran into her again at a post-911-support group. I approached her and said "hi". But she was rather cool in response. So I backed off and dropped whatever potential there might have been for rekindling the friendship.
BTW, I'm quite sure she is neurotypical, not psychopathic. I don't know why she didn't call me. I suppose I *could* call her and ask, but I no longer care. However, this experience (and others) have taught me a lot about why it makes sense to ask for what one wants. (Which is extremely hard for me to do for a variety of toxic-childhood issues.)
Ir sounds like she was weighing her importance in your eyes through you reaching out, and never considered her lack thereof would tell you that you weren't valuable to her.
Yup, that's very possible. Also, she might not know that she never called me -- or that this might be important to me. One wonders if this not calling was a pattern in all her relationships. I would guess yes.
If she knew that calling you at least fairly regularly was important to you yet just stopped for all that time sounds to me like she stopped being the great friend she was to you. There needs to be a mutual sense of give and take in friendships for them to work out imho.
Ah yes -- but how could she have known? I never mentioned that calling me was important. So she may not have known. Anyway, mutual-give-and-take in friendships is essential, yes. I began to feel the friendship was not in balance and that's why the next call needed to be from her. I'll never know what might have happened if I had spoken up about this.
"Ah yes -- but how could she have known? I never mentioned that calling me was important."
Oh okay! Sorry for being too quick to jump to conclusions there.
I take it that during those 2 decades she didn't once try to contact you in any other way though just to see how you were doing or anything? If not, does seem pretty unusual to me for a non path- unless she's very introverted or shy?
Nope. Not a peep. I don't think she was especially introverted or shy. It's quite possible that she viewed my not calling as some kind of rejection. We did a counseling group together for a few years, and got together for friendly meetings for a couple of years or so after I stopped doing counseling. She was highly intuitive and did great work with Gestalt techniques. I was better at the mind stuff and Transactional Analysis techniques.
Good point I didn't think of that. Definitely also a possibility. Sounds interesting on the Gestalt therapy techniques and Transactional Analysis one's! I've heard the former name before but don't know much about it and that's the first time I've heard of Transactional Analysis (though I won't get too far off topic here!).
Thanks Athena, once again I feel like you have looked deepmy into my mind and told me my own story. I rereading this, I really need to absorb it. My family all knows of my Psychopathy, I think I told them to set expectations and clear up misunderstanding. Because they never or almost never bring up my allofness, just my way I suppose they got used to it. I'm going to ask selected family members..or maybe not. Not sure if I want to hear the entire truth. Inna word, texting is bad . I text all the time, i.e "love and miss you, hope your having a great day, xo" and settle for a heart 💜 response. I thought this was close but I sense they want more. Thanks Athena.
I honestly think most existing conflicts could be resolved if people just opened their mouths to talk. My mom and her sister didn't speak to each other for 2 years. A 5-minute conversation solved the whole misunderstanding. They had their feelings hurt for that entire time for no reason. No one can mind read so we need to communicate. Other times, no amount of communication can make someone understand you. I've had depression and been suicidal since I was 15 and have been institutionalised twice. My friends are well aware of this and still can't understand why I don't feel like going out every week or struggle to text them back in a timely manner when getting out of bed in the morning is an accomplishment in and of itself for me. They can logically understand the concept of depression but it is still so foreign to them that 'just try to think positively' is as far as their empathy can go.
I dislike the habit of not speaking when something needs to be said in real life, and in things like TV shows and movies. It makes no sense to me at all.
Tell me about it, korean dramas especially are specialists at this. They'll drag this trope for episodes on end. It's more annoying than real life because you can actually see the nonsensical perspective from all the parties involved.
I can understand how difficult it must be to assess the differing expectations people have of you.
In some ways this comes down to the emotional manipulations that we as neurotypicals often employ. I don’t say this in a cynical way as if these manipulations are always calculated. In fact often I think we do it to ‘soften the blow’ or we do it because we feel unsure about asking someone for something in a direct way. A possible example of that would be a failing marriage where a partner isn’t having their needs met. Rather than be direct, there is an emotional manipulation which is more subtle. For example, “ I used to love it when we made a point of having date night each Friday.” ( I want us to have date night on Fridays). It’s softer, it feels less demanding.
There are all kinds of reasons why we don’t say exactly what we want and often this comes from a place of uncertainty or a caring place, rather than a selfish one. The issue is the emotional investment that is attached to this emotion based suggestion. If you don’t have date night on Friday then we feel as if we told you how important it was to us and the fact that you didn’t act must mean that you either don’t care after all or, you really don’t want to spend time together!
With emotional empathy (in varying degrees) some people are naturally in tune to these emotion laden requests but without it, I can see it would be incredibly difficult to read as not every person will communicate in this way all of the time. The direct approach will be taken on some occasions but not others and I think it must be difficult sometimes for those with only cognitive empathy to ‘infer’ what is required as opposed to ‘feeling’ what is required.
This is why I think I prefer face to face communication as opposed to voice or text. I am heavily led by emotional empathy and I can’t feel through a screen or down a telephone line. To me, it feels like flying blind. What it really means is that I actually have to switch to cognitive empathy to analyse what is behind the interaction.
It is a minefield sometimes, even for those of us using both emotional and cognitive empathy in tandem!
I have never understood that sort of interaction. It seems to me that people prefer complaining over asking for what they want. If people were direct with one another, most of the time, I think that they would find their needs and wants met far easier.
Honestly, I think I use both approaches depending on situation and who I’m speaking with. My mum can bring the drama so I tend to be less direct with her. I’m more direct with my partner, most direct with my dad. Thinking about it, I’m most direct with the people I’m closest to so trust / fear of repercussions might be factors in my case.
I guess it goes to show no human can be absolutely perfect in anything.
I am personally seeing increased value in practicing cognitive empathy as seems to me (as I get older) I can’t count on positive emotional responses as well as I once did.
Would you consider yourself an introvert alongside how your psychopathy affects you btw Athena? I personally know someone who is/is very much a loner by nature and for this reason I know he’s not good at maintaining contact with people.
OK, huge disclaimer here: I am on the autism spectrum. I think your assumption that it was on both you and your mom equally to improve communication, if it was to be improved, was 100% reasonable.
In fact, I will go even further, and state that - barring certain exceptional circumstances - this is an objective truth, regardless of your mother's expectations or feelings.
That said, such exceptional circumstances do in fact apply to me in my interactions with my own parents.
I have the good fortune here in Poland to have a reasonably-priced phone plan that allows me unlimited calls to a number of countries, among them the United States, where my parents live.
My parents do not have access to such a phone plan, which means that they incur additional expenses if they call me, to say nothing of the struggles to get a connection, which were once greater than they are now.
Back in my student days, indeed, they involved making themselves understood to a switchboard operator who did not speak English. I had to teach them how to ask for me in Polish. The calls were never really cheap, so to minimize costs, they also had to be made at an ungodly time of day.
So, when this new phone plan appeared on the horizon some years ago, I jumped at the chance. I will never forget the day I was able to call them and tell them that they no longer have to struggle with the expense and the difficulties of getting a connection. I took it upon myself to call them from now on. We talked about how often they would like to hear from me, then I made it happen.
So you know, I do not do this out of any particular sentiment. It is just part of the concept of how to treat one's parents that I grew up with and also absorbed from the practice of my religion (which is a separate matter from my upbringing - my father and stepmother do not practice any religion). It is proper to keep them informed about what is going on in one's life.
Obviously, there are situations where I would not do this. For example:
- If doing so would place my personal safety or dignity at risk
- If they expressed a desire not to hear from me anymore
- If I were married, and they persistently tried to interfere in our marriage.
And indeed: I am an LGBT person. It is not at all unheard-of for such people's parents to cut off contact or even put their child's safety or life at risk after the child comes out.
My parents are not perfect, but that is one problem I am blessed not to have. Apparently, they are even proud of me for coming out...
These points are why I stopped buying Christmas gifts. I have no idea what anyone may want and I can no longer make even an educated guess. They shouldn't have complained about the Burger King gift cards I bought everyone a few years ago
As a rule, complaining about any gift is considered untoward
Buying scratchers works for everyone (if you want to give anything!)
I live scratches , gift cards and cash money as gifts . Up here in Canada, people are scamming the gift cards and you have to make sure it wasn't scratched and then p
Glue to plastic covering back in. When you pay and a private, they just got a $100, etc. Buyer beware!
Good to know
I suspect there are people who are as incapable of learning how to be cognitively empathetic as you are at feeling emotionally empathetic. Learning cognitive empathy requires a certain set of analytical skills, as well as an ability to detect when behavioral patterns are associated with a person’s state of mind. It also requires that the person is driven to develop those skills because they need them to survive.
Relatively speaking, you appear to have very well developed cognitive empathy skills. You intuitively understood how critical they were for your survival in a normative world. I am neurodivergent in very different ways than you are. I am super-sensitive on an emotional level to what people’s tone sounds like and whether they are being dismissive or embracing. As a child, I could get hurt very easily. Consequently, I, too, needed to develop strong cognitive empathy skills so I could learn how to not overreact or misinterpret other people’s intent.
As I matured, I learned how much of my emotional interpretations of others’ intent was projection, and how often what appears to be a criticism of me was merely the other person feeling the emotional need to defend themselves. Rarely did I find that one’s intent was focused on deliberately hurting the other person. You appeared to have figured that out, though you came at it from a very different angle.
I imagine that it is easier to navigate social interactions if you have both emotional and cognitive empathy. The information you gather from both works hand in hand to make sense out of human behavior. So I am always impressed to learn how well you have developed cognitive empathy without having ever experienced emotions like pain, loneliness, fear, anger and shame—because so much of human behavior is a response to those emotions.
I have also come to realize that unless someone experiences a psychic, emotional or physical state on a visceral level, they cannot ever truly understand it in others. That’s why highly neuro-normative people haven’t a clue what neurodivergent people experience in life—and why people who are neurodivergent in very different ways often cannot connect well.
Something you once told me underscored that point: I asked you once if you could imagine why someone might choose to put another person’s needs over their own. You responded that you could not. I assumed that that was because your brain does not have the wiring necessary to generate the feeling of guilt or a need to be viewed as a person capable of sacrificing for others. So having never had those feelings, how could you possible imagine them. It’s important that people understand that that is by no means a choice you have made—and that your actions, or the lack thereof, have nothing to do with anyone other than yourself. I suspect that people who lack cognitive empathy are unlikely to understand that.
I can see what you mean. It's an interesting thing to think that someone would be incapable of cognitive empathy. I suppose it is my own limitations speaking when I think that if they tried hard enough, they would be able to manage it, and that lack of will would be standing in the way, instead of incapability.
I can imagine that even a psychopath might be able to put someone else's needs above their own if it were in the service of some greater good, such as doing their part to keep the planet from getting blown up by pathological relationship patterns gone out of control on an international scale.
They might say to themselves, "Sure, I could prioritize my own self-interest here, but if everyone on the planet started doing likewise, some conflict would eventually rage out of control and the planet would get blown up."
Of course, not wanting to have the planet blown up could be considered a matter of self-interest. But it does illustrate that sometimes there is a need in specific instances to put someone else's needs before one's own, even in the service of one's own ultimate self-interest.
I would agree that comes back to self-interest. I believe you create the world you want to live through your actions. Those actions are self-interested actions. The action of preventing the world from exploding would come from the same place.
I loved this part of your comment:
"As I matured, I learned how much of my emotional interpretations of others’ intent was projection, and how often what appears to be a criticism of me was merely the other person feeling the emotional need to defend themselves. Rarely did I find that one’s intent was focused on deliberately hurting the other person."
And the last part reminded me of Hanlon's razor:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".
Your point is spot on about not saying what one wants.
I once had a very good friend who never called me. That is, after several years of our friendship, I realized that I was always the one who called her, never her calling me. I decided that the next phone call we had would be from her. But I didn't tell her my decision. And so, she stayed true to her pattern and didn't call. Two decades went past. Then I ran into her again at a post-911-support group. I approached her and said "hi". But she was rather cool in response. So I backed off and dropped whatever potential there might have been for rekindling the friendship.
BTW, I'm quite sure she is neurotypical, not psychopathic. I don't know why she didn't call me. I suppose I *could* call her and ask, but I no longer care. However, this experience (and others) have taught me a lot about why it makes sense to ask for what one wants. (Which is extremely hard for me to do for a variety of toxic-childhood issues.)
Ir sounds like she was weighing her importance in your eyes through you reaching out, and never considered her lack thereof would tell you that you weren't valuable to her.
Yup, that's very possible. Also, she might not know that she never called me -- or that this might be important to me. One wonders if this not calling was a pattern in all her relationships. I would guess yes.
If she knew that calling you at least fairly regularly was important to you yet just stopped for all that time sounds to me like she stopped being the great friend she was to you. There needs to be a mutual sense of give and take in friendships for them to work out imho.
Ah yes -- but how could she have known? I never mentioned that calling me was important. So she may not have known. Anyway, mutual-give-and-take in friendships is essential, yes. I began to feel the friendship was not in balance and that's why the next call needed to be from her. I'll never know what might have happened if I had spoken up about this.
"Ah yes -- but how could she have known? I never mentioned that calling me was important."
Oh okay! Sorry for being too quick to jump to conclusions there.
I take it that during those 2 decades she didn't once try to contact you in any other way though just to see how you were doing or anything? If not, does seem pretty unusual to me for a non path- unless she's very introverted or shy?
Nope. Not a peep. I don't think she was especially introverted or shy. It's quite possible that she viewed my not calling as some kind of rejection. We did a counseling group together for a few years, and got together for friendly meetings for a couple of years or so after I stopped doing counseling. She was highly intuitive and did great work with Gestalt techniques. I was better at the mind stuff and Transactional Analysis techniques.
Good point I didn't think of that. Definitely also a possibility. Sounds interesting on the Gestalt therapy techniques and Transactional Analysis one's! I've heard the former name before but don't know much about it and that's the first time I've heard of Transactional Analysis (though I won't get too far off topic here!).
Thanks Athena, once again I feel like you have looked deepmy into my mind and told me my own story. I rereading this, I really need to absorb it. My family all knows of my Psychopathy, I think I told them to set expectations and clear up misunderstanding. Because they never or almost never bring up my allofness, just my way I suppose they got used to it. I'm going to ask selected family members..or maybe not. Not sure if I want to hear the entire truth. Inna word, texting is bad . I text all the time, i.e "love and miss you, hope your having a great day, xo" and settle for a heart 💜 response. I thought this was close but I sense they want more. Thanks Athena.
You're welcome, Lorne
I honestly think most existing conflicts could be resolved if people just opened their mouths to talk. My mom and her sister didn't speak to each other for 2 years. A 5-minute conversation solved the whole misunderstanding. They had their feelings hurt for that entire time for no reason. No one can mind read so we need to communicate. Other times, no amount of communication can make someone understand you. I've had depression and been suicidal since I was 15 and have been institutionalised twice. My friends are well aware of this and still can't understand why I don't feel like going out every week or struggle to text them back in a timely manner when getting out of bed in the morning is an accomplishment in and of itself for me. They can logically understand the concept of depression but it is still so foreign to them that 'just try to think positively' is as far as their empathy can go.
I dislike the habit of not speaking when something needs to be said in real life, and in things like TV shows and movies. It makes no sense to me at all.
Tell me about it, korean dramas especially are specialists at this. They'll drag this trope for episodes on end. It's more annoying than real life because you can actually see the nonsensical perspective from all the parties involved.
Indeed
I can understand how difficult it must be to assess the differing expectations people have of you.
In some ways this comes down to the emotional manipulations that we as neurotypicals often employ. I don’t say this in a cynical way as if these manipulations are always calculated. In fact often I think we do it to ‘soften the blow’ or we do it because we feel unsure about asking someone for something in a direct way. A possible example of that would be a failing marriage where a partner isn’t having their needs met. Rather than be direct, there is an emotional manipulation which is more subtle. For example, “ I used to love it when we made a point of having date night each Friday.” ( I want us to have date night on Fridays). It’s softer, it feels less demanding.
There are all kinds of reasons why we don’t say exactly what we want and often this comes from a place of uncertainty or a caring place, rather than a selfish one. The issue is the emotional investment that is attached to this emotion based suggestion. If you don’t have date night on Friday then we feel as if we told you how important it was to us and the fact that you didn’t act must mean that you either don’t care after all or, you really don’t want to spend time together!
With emotional empathy (in varying degrees) some people are naturally in tune to these emotion laden requests but without it, I can see it would be incredibly difficult to read as not every person will communicate in this way all of the time. The direct approach will be taken on some occasions but not others and I think it must be difficult sometimes for those with only cognitive empathy to ‘infer’ what is required as opposed to ‘feeling’ what is required.
This is why I think I prefer face to face communication as opposed to voice or text. I am heavily led by emotional empathy and I can’t feel through a screen or down a telephone line. To me, it feels like flying blind. What it really means is that I actually have to switch to cognitive empathy to analyse what is behind the interaction.
It is a minefield sometimes, even for those of us using both emotional and cognitive empathy in tandem!
I have never understood that sort of interaction. It seems to me that people prefer complaining over asking for what they want. If people were direct with one another, most of the time, I think that they would find their needs and wants met far easier.
Honestly, I think I use both approaches depending on situation and who I’m speaking with. My mum can bring the drama so I tend to be less direct with her. I’m more direct with my partner, most direct with my dad. Thinking about it, I’m most direct with the people I’m closest to so trust / fear of repercussions might be factors in my case.
I guess it goes to show no human can be absolutely perfect in anything.
I am personally seeing increased value in practicing cognitive empathy as seems to me (as I get older) I can’t count on positive emotional responses as well as I once did.
Would you consider yourself an introvert alongside how your psychopathy affects you btw Athena? I personally know someone who is/is very much a loner by nature and for this reason I know he’s not good at maintaining contact with people.
No, I am neither introverted nor extroverted. I can be whatever the situation requires of me
OK, huge disclaimer here: I am on the autism spectrum. I think your assumption that it was on both you and your mom equally to improve communication, if it was to be improved, was 100% reasonable.
In fact, I will go even further, and state that - barring certain exceptional circumstances - this is an objective truth, regardless of your mother's expectations or feelings.
That said, such exceptional circumstances do in fact apply to me in my interactions with my own parents.
I have the good fortune here in Poland to have a reasonably-priced phone plan that allows me unlimited calls to a number of countries, among them the United States, where my parents live.
My parents do not have access to such a phone plan, which means that they incur additional expenses if they call me, to say nothing of the struggles to get a connection, which were once greater than they are now.
Back in my student days, indeed, they involved making themselves understood to a switchboard operator who did not speak English. I had to teach them how to ask for me in Polish. The calls were never really cheap, so to minimize costs, they also had to be made at an ungodly time of day.
So, when this new phone plan appeared on the horizon some years ago, I jumped at the chance. I will never forget the day I was able to call them and tell them that they no longer have to struggle with the expense and the difficulties of getting a connection. I took it upon myself to call them from now on. We talked about how often they would like to hear from me, then I made it happen.
So you know, I do not do this out of any particular sentiment. It is just part of the concept of how to treat one's parents that I grew up with and also absorbed from the practice of my religion (which is a separate matter from my upbringing - my father and stepmother do not practice any religion). It is proper to keep them informed about what is going on in one's life.
Obviously, there are situations where I would not do this. For example:
- If doing so would place my personal safety or dignity at risk
- If they expressed a desire not to hear from me anymore
- If I were married, and they persistently tried to interfere in our marriage.
And indeed: I am an LGBT person. It is not at all unheard-of for such people's parents to cut off contact or even put their child's safety or life at risk after the child comes out.
My parents are not perfect, but that is one problem I am blessed not to have. Apparently, they are even proud of me for coming out...
Awesome metaphor: "no matter how good you are, you are still studying the ocean in a drop of water."
Thank you, Wyn