I always find your posts so interesting because you describe so well your experiences and how they relate to your understanding of neurotypical experiences. One thought I had is it seems the foundation others build their life on for stability also makes them vulnerable to collapse if those pieces are removed (like a Jenga). However perhaps for you, your sense of stability is central to your core being, and not on external constructs, so you're much more versatile to changes in the environment.
I accept everything you say about emotional non-bonding,lack of chemical attachment, etc. In that context your statements about how you do not react to loss or terrible events seen by you that have happened to other people make perfect sense. I'm wondering though, how you or someone like you would face any illness or injury that goes beyond mere inconvenience up to and including the possible loss of your life. In what ways would your experiences of these things be like or unlike what you describe above?
What else is there to do? I would pursue all possible treatments, I prefer living, but it is what it is. Outside of doing whatever I can do, there isn’t much else to do.
If you are asking about emotional aspects, death has never bothered me. I have nearly died a few times, and I never had any fear kick in, no desire to change my life in any way, as I already live exactly how I want to live, and I had no regrets about how my life had been conducted thus far.
I might die today. A cow might fall through my roof and crush me in my bed (no really… this actually happened to a man, and yes it killed him), or a sinkhole might open up and I fall to my death. It isn’t something that occupies my mind. Illness doesn’t either. I deal with what needs to be dealt with, and the rest plays out however it’s going to.
I spoke about this in better detail addressing chronic illness, and I don’t see much of an difference;
Much like all adversity in life, we just handle it. There isn’t stress involved with it. If we choose to be responsible in dealing with the illness we are great patients. We don’t give the medical staff a difficult time. We are compliant in our treatment plans. We just do what’s necessary as it’s part of life to be managed.
There are of course psychopaths, like any other individual, that won’t treat it seriously. They ignore treatment, and do nothing to maintain themselves. I would guess this would be more of a low functioning psychopath that would do this though.
Psychopaths are very adaptable. No matter what circumstance you toss us into, we just deal with it. There is a great quote in the movie, Catch me if you can.
Two little mice fell in a bucket of cream. The first mouse quickly gave up and drowned. The second mouse, wouldn't quit. He struggled so hard that eventually he churned that cream into butter and crawled out. Gentlemen, as of this moment, I am that second mouse.
Frank Abagnale Sr
It’s actually a bit perplexing to me that illness and injury seems to sideline neurotypicals so much. It appears that the emotional impact of being sick changes their prognosis. It is easier to just deal with it. It is what it is. You have this problem, this problem is addressed by walking these steps. Start walking. Sitting down in the middle of the path for a cry is a waste of time and energy.
Thanks for this. It sounds like a well-adjusted psychopath might have considerable advantages in dealing with life's difficulties compared to we neurotypicals. Of course as you note throughout your writing on this topic, there are disadvantages as well.
But.. some of them could lead to an unintentional fatality due to lack of fear... so... they may be few, but they can be quite life-changing, or ending.
Yes, exactly, Athena. Pain is a signal from the body that something is or may be the matter and likely will need to be dealt with. People who are unable to experience physical pain are at risk of harm because without that signal they may not even know there is a problem.I imagine it's potentially similar with someone who does not feel fear, which is a signal from the mind that there is something potentially dangerous afoot.
There is a very interesting case of a UK woman who seems to be an anomaly. Most people born unable to feel pain not surprisingly have innumerable injuries since toddler age and very damaged bodies as adults. But this woman, in addition to a very "chilled" disposition, has none of that. She is uninjured. She lives a normal cheerful life and seems not to hurt herself. She even felt no pain at all in childbirth. She always just assumed that others must just feel more than she does, which is true. But it doesn't explain her lack of pain and yet a life of no injury. It might be a long time before we have an explanation of this phenomenon.
Small qualification. She did not notice age related degenerative changes and if I remember correctly, only saw the doctor about her bad hips when she heard bones grinding and couldn't walk. So I guess that is self injury. Still, she got off lightly overall.
You have written about sudden shifts in circumstances and the brief process of adjustment. And illness requires action and following a path. But I wonder about circumstances where there is no action to be taken. Things that just must be endured, even though they are not preferable.
Deal with it. There really isn't any other option. Make arrangements, clean out my stuff so other people wouldn't have to, decide if I want to go all the way through the illness or end it on my terms, handle anything else that needs to be done, do a bunch of things that I enjoy, and when it happens, it happens.
I was thinking more of situations other than illness. And where there is little possibility of finding a silver lining. Ongoing uncomfortable detainment, say.
There is always a silver lining. Being ill puts you in a place that you have never been before, which then introduces things that you would never experience otherwise. There is always something that makes anything interesting.
It’s fascinating to hear about having essentially no emotion. I wonder: does this affect humor? Can you find anything funny? Second question: what about ambition? I’m guessing status games would be of very little interest. I would also guess that boredom plus lack of fear could lead down some dangerous paths. It’s almost as if you would need to be cognitively alert, as you seem to be, to avoid trouble. This is where emotions help those of us that have them. At times, something just feels “off.” You can ignore it and proceed, which is why there is so much out there about listening to your gut. Is there a psychopathic equivalent of the gut check, or is everything purely a cognitive evaluation of the circumstances?
Psychopaths have emotion, it is just muted, though some are missing.
What would you consider a "status game", I am not familiar with the term?
Yes, boredom and lack of fear can be a very nasty combination. I don't know that I believe in instinct so much as I think that it is the subconscious picking up on external clues but the sensation is that of what people call instinct. I pay a great deal of attention to details, so while I don't have the feeling, I think I cognitively fill that experience.
It takes time to learn of course, but so does instinct. Perhaps, however, I'm wrong about instinct. It's hard to say really. I do tend to pick up on people that have underhanded intentions that nearly everyone I know. The only two people that are better at is my Significant Other, and the other psychopath that I know.
Now that is interesting. I am going to pay very close attention next time something like that happens and see if I can find that signal in the white noise. Are you familiar with Joseph Newman's Attention Theory in regard to psychopathy? If not, I'll link it for you. I imagine you will be quite interested in his thoughts on the matter.
I was finally able to watch that and it was very interesting and tracks with things I've noticed about myself. BTW the comments for that video was full of people who were terribly offended by Dr. Newman's theory , go figure
It is very rare that psychopathy doesn't offend people. They need it to be evil, because if we aren't the epitome of evil, they might have to face the possibility that they are more than capable of it themselves. That's very disquieting, so they get very angry at the mere suggestion that they are wrong.
I recall back when I was 20 and working in a chemical research lab. One of the other techs there commented to the rest of the techs when I was not in the break room that I was "the most evil man he'd ever met". Some of my friends told me about it and they found it amusing. The guy was extremely religious and despite the fact that I didn't have any drug habits or engage in any of the morally offensive stuff some of the others got up to I was recognized as "evil"
“Let me be clear about one thing, is that some people look at my attention theory and think that I’m denying that there’s a emotion deficit in psychopaths, but that’s not the case. I mean their emotion deficit is what really does distinguish them from other criminals. And so, where does that come from? Are they really incapable of fear, or is it a matter of attention. And in order to really answer that question you have to do well controlled experiments in the laboratory, is my view of it. The way you can do the is you can present threatening information, information that means they have to inhibit a response or they’re going to be punished. And you can look at their ability to learn that inhibition under different conditions. What we have done over the years is if the threat cues are something they are paying attention to, then they show that they care about it. They’re motivated to learn about those cues and they’ll inhibit behavior and regulate behavior quite well. But if you redirect their attention, if you get them focused on getting some reward and then periodically if they do the wrong thing, you also punish them, now you’ve set up a division where the threat cues, or the emotion related cues are peripheral to what they’re focusing on and that’s where they look deficient.”
“Let me be clear about one thing, is that some people look at my attention theory and think that I’m denying that there’s a emotion deficit in psychopaths, but that’s not the case. I mean their emotion deficit is what really does distinguish them from other criminals. And so, where does that come from? Are they really incapable of fear, or is it a matter of attention. And in order to really answer that question you have to do well controlled experiments in the laboratory, is my view of it. The way you can do the is you can present threatening information, information that means they have to inhibit a response or they’re going to be punished. And you can look at their ability to learn that inhibition under different conditions. What we have done over the years is if the threat cues are something they are paying attention to, then they show that they care about it. They’re motivated to learn about those cues and they’ll inhibit behavior and regulate behavior quite well. But if you redirect their attention, if you get them focused on getting some reward and then periodically if they do the wrong thing, you also punish them, now you’ve set up a division where the threat cues, or the emotion related cues are peripheral to what they’re focusing on and that’s where they look deficient.”
Invisigoth, are you a psycopath? Sorry if I'm missing the obvious here, but I don't know if your posts are from a psycopath, someone with some psycopathic traits, a questioner, a NT oddball, or whatever. Either way, your dog experience is amazing. If it was felt however briefly, well, sometimes it's the people that can straddle two worlds that have the best insights.
I have a number of traits plus I can’t be addicted to anything. I found that out after surgery where I was on opioids and had no issues despite taking a LOT of drugs
Often when you comment I see a great number of parallels to how I think. Obviously I can't diagnose anyone, but you seem to be quite consistent with psychopathy
Interesting, and for all of us too on our journeys, though I am NT. Any other addictive substances though? I am from a country where codeine was until recently available freely over the counter and it always just killed pain when necessary but never gave me any jollies and was never overused. And I have had awake surgery with fentanyl only (I sweet-talked the anaesthetist to allow me to avoid an unwanted GA) and felt nothing pleasant at all that made me want to repeat it. But I have been massively hooked on nicotine. Can we generalise from one drug to another?
Grape Soda says 'essentially no emotion'. You have written about this in detail. There is a huge list of completely unfelt emotions that are an equally huge part of the NT life experience. It's most things, really. Then there are a few mild things more like moods that you do feel a bit. So for you, you say it's just enough to know what emotion is. While for the NT reading your experience, it amounts to 'essentially no emotion'. It is so far from NT experience that that phrase is sort of accurate. I have thought carefully about this comment and realise that there is no way I can phrase it that doesn't sound rude and dismissive of your experience, or 'superior', god forbid. That is not my intention. I am glad that you have whatever emptional experience you do have because for me its all about people understanding each other and finding commonality.
I agree that there is no magic to instinct, it's just us noticing the things we don't notice, so to speak, and very useful it is. Now if we could have your cognitive attention to detail as well, we'd be invulnerable! Practice practice....
"Lack of Fear" must take on a very different hue male vs. female experience. I mostly travel alot and I go places and do some things others think are very dangerous or risky. I find these experiences very valuable and learn about other people from them.
I do not experience "boredom". People (by which I mean women) told me even going to the supermarket is fun with me.
Yes, I imagine that it is very different. Males and females have very different experiences in the world, and it always interests me to try to understand the position which I am not in.
Yes, me too! In terms of travel, as a single, particularly in "poor" countries, males do not contend with threats to their physical safety. I travel alone. I meet people without the complex issues of sex hanging on every interaction. I'm not sure if a female can do that without very high probability of being assaulted.
That's me. I am a female adventure traveller, and am acutely aware of the male/female difference. And it seriously sucks. There is no freedom or spontaneity, only detailed planning, umrelenting vigilance, and exhausting constant juggling of experience vs risk, and all the attendant frustrating limitations. Yeah, some silly girls jump on the back of a motorbike 'taxi' into town for clubbing at night in Uganda, but just no. It's constant anxiety, oh god, my flight is delayed and I'll arrive at night, oh god, the local taxis are unsafe without an app I cannot download, oh god, is my Islamic clothing sufficiently anonymous, oh god, this 'bus' may offload me anywhere at night, is there even a legit bus station? The male travellers I meet, well, the things they do! We women inhabit a lesser world unfortunately.
Most people will experience negative emotions in the situations you described. But at the same time, neurotypicals won't have an emotional response *every* time, say, they die in a video game or someone insults them. Only some of the time, they will feel frustration, disappointment, anger, or even relief (in the case of the video game).
Trying to think about why that is, the times I felt nothing towards something that might otherwise be negative, I did not actually have the preference you describe. E.g. I keep getting killed by a boss in a video game. But I'm enjoying this battle so much, that's not really an issue.
Desire and emotion seem to always go hand-in-hand with neurotypicals (I have ADHD but I assume this will work the same way for neurotypicals, anyway).
I think I can construct a scenario in which I feel nothing in response to a failing, though. Say, I am given a task. I must flip a coin until it lands heads up. I'd rather it land hands up the first time I flip it, but if it is tails, I have no emotional response to this. (this stops working as the number of flips increase and I start feeling impatient annoyance).
Now thinking about that, I wonder. Can a psychopath truly have desires without emotions backing them? Or would it be more accurate to call these "intentions" or "goals" than desires? I know you still feel dopamine rush, so not sure. I once read that psychopaths act on weak impulses because they have even weaker inhibitions. I can imagine then, that psychopaths may often just go through the motions, doing things that they don't think are important, and in fact barely put any thought into at all. This sound right?
When you say "go through the motions", what are you referring to?
When there is something that I want to do, emotion doesn't drive me, interest does. It looks interesting, it looks fun. I like interesting and fun things. Or, perhaps it looks hard. I like challenges, so that would be another motivator.
However, if something is hard, but not interesting, the challenge won't intrigue me. No interest means no appeal and no engagement.
When I say "going through the motions," I mean doing what comes naturally or perhaps habitually without much thought or motivation. Indeed, when I do this, Its so unimportant to me I'm not even paying attention and may not remember later, but ADHD inattentional case is an extreme here.
Interest as in "intrigue"? Or "excitement?" Those are emotions as well. Seeking that or seeking to alleviate boredom are still emotionally driven desires.
At least it is like that for me. I know you once said you experienced the biological fear adrenal response but not the emotion of fear. Do you feel intrigue or is it another case like fear?
For me, for ADHD people, intrigue-seeking and boredom-aversion are the ever-present drives. And yes, I like challenges if they are interesting. I can become very singularly focused for days on end by something I find fascinating, or be so caught up in it that I ignore things like self preservation. As soon as that fascination is gone, I drop it, whether I finished my original goal or not and move on to the next thing I find stimulating.
On the outside, this relationship with interest looks more psychopathic than neurotypical. But I suspect there are major differences. "psychopaths act on weak impulses because they have even weaker inhibitions." Not the case for me. Inhibitions may be weaker than neurotypicals, but my impulses driven emotions like intrigue are strong. Its not even "intrigue" usually; it normally goes beyond that to fascination.
Intrigue isn't an emotion in my mind. It takes no emotion to find something interesting, intriguing, or to have curiosity. Excitement is an emotion, that I agree with. I have my version of it, but it isn't anything like that of a neurotypical.
That makes me think of an interesting possible post you could do, describing the emotions you do feel, the circumstances, some anecdotes, the intensity, your subjective experience of them. That's if there is enough material! I'm sure there would be, even if these are things you don't pay much attention to or reflect on.
I did one on the emotional experiences of psychopaths, but I don't have emotional coding of memories, so I can't give you examples. That's not how my brain works.
I went back and read it, great post, lots of detail. But most of the things you describe feeling mightn't necessarily be called emotions, as you yourself say. Moods, states, attitudes perhaps. Your version of awe sounded more like a degree of interest and engagement where one doesn't want to look away, combined with a cognitive recognition of something's amazingness, but maybe I'm wrong here. I suppose I'm intrigued by your happiness as an elevated version of contentment and what conditions bring this about, and also how excitement feels without a habit of anticipation. These might be closest to what NTs feel, in character if not intensity. All I can ask is, if something occurs to you in future, you note some experience, please share!
By "desire" I mean any compulsion to take or avoid a course of action and the accompanying emotion.
Neurotypical desire seems (almost) entirely motivated by emotions. E.g. the pursuit of happiness, the avoidance of sadness, or the preservation of pride. This last one can also apply to psychopaths, but of course, to a lesser degree. People have some idea of who they are or want to be and who they don't want to be.
Imagine you come face to face with a tiger. You are instantly stricken with fear. You feel a strong desire to run.
That is a simplistic example, but this also applies to more complex logical behavior. Let's say "Bob" is a factory worker. Bob gets up every night at 6 PM and works a grueling night shift. How could emotions possibly be the motivation for this behavior? Well, Bob has quite a lot of emotions motivating him, actually. He's afraid of being fired and then being unable to pay his rent. He desires to have the money to eat out a lot because nice food gives him moments of happiness. When he thinks ahead, he can already feel a shadow of these emotions and this becomes motivation.
I too wonder about the level of desire without emotion. That it is there to some degree, well obviously, because of psycopaths' actual choices and preferences. But it sounds like 'Mars or Snickers?'. And yet there is some factor operating there to make life choices more important than a candy bar, but without any elation to chase or suffering to avoid, even if it is not what we would think of. I await the Vulcan mind meld.....
It might be that ‘desires’ or ‘motivations’ may be working without conscious involvement, and that this conscious feedback loop is disrupted or missing. The analogy would be patients with a brain trauma that has rendered them blind but who can still navigate their way down a corridor full of obstacles. Whether these processes involve neurotransmitters or other parts of the endocrine system or neural networks would be interesting to establish. On this basis, it could be argued that desire has a non emotional component that could be quite powerful; a subconscious driving force.
Hi, I’m brand new to your website, so forgive me if I ask questions that you may have already covered elsewhere. I’m curious about folks with certain antisocial personality disorders who abuse alcohol and/or other drugs. I could be totally off base on all this but I’m super curious on your thoughts. I’ve heard that with any disorder, people can present on a spectrum… do you find this to be the case with psychopathy and sociopathy? Would this explain why some people with any of the so-called “dark triad” traits (Psychopath, Sociopath, Narcissist) who might not be on the more significant end of the spectrum, could potentially fall into substance abuse? And, if so, wouldn’t this be a certain way for those folks to deal with loss, life upsets, negative events, inability or failure to get their way etc? I’ve heard intelligence can play a huge factor as well.
I dated a man of whom I’m fairly certain fell somewhere within that triad (most likely socio or psychopath) but I feel like he had some awareness of his behavior and that it somewhat tortured him. And he drank. A lot. He also had a niece who was murdered… i had already started to suspect him of not being an an NT by then… he drank extremely heavy after this happened and I had the feeling that the alcohol helped him “perform” the right emotions that were expected of him. But I could be wrong.
Also, I totally understand if one were to say, “well if he was truly a socio- or psychopath, even if he had awareness of his behaviors, it wouldn’t phase him at all…. But that’s where I wonder if people can be on a spectrum... and wouldn’t alcohol and drugs be a great way to escape? What do you think?
I also completely understand that I am not a psychiatrist and cannot diagnose him… my theory is based on speculation… which is based on a lot of truly odd and often shocking or even frightening behavior.
He will forever remain a complete mystery to me…. I was addicted to him (mainly because of the sex… because it was dangerous and thrilling… he liked to choke me. And I always had a feeling he was always holding himself back. I’m glad he broke up with me because I couldn’t get away).
Anyhow, sorry, I digressed…. Thoughts on the spectrum and those who abuse sunbatances?
Anyone can be labeled as antisocial provided that they behave to criteria for the diagnosis. It is a terrible diagnosis for that very reason.
Psychopaths cannot be addicted to anything and do not get the emotional payoff that drugs and alcohol provide others. It's a pointless venture for us. Researchers are trying to figure out if they can use this aspect of how we respond to things of this nature to help addicts. For us drinking or drugs do not work the way that they do in others.
Psychopathy does not relate to personality disorders like sociopathy, NPD, HPD, as we are born as we are. Everything in us is hardwired. You are born a psychopath, or you are not one. We should not be considered in the psychological realm, but rather the neurologic one.
The rest of them are created through having to adapt to a toxic home environment. As such, drugs and alcohol are things that people who are dealing with terrible things may decide to use. This is not uncommon in adults that had bad home lives.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond. You must get something out of responding to all of us who are pretty ignorant of all this.
I guess I assumed that some serial killers used alcohol (such as Dahmer) or drugs as a means to deal with their so called “demons”… are you saying that he would not be considered a psychopath? I know it’s probably cliche for NT’s to assume most serial killers are psychopaths…. But all those true crime shows with the “talking head” psychiatrists like to tell us that they are… like the show “Signs of a Pschopath”… would Israel Keyes not be considered a psychopath? Wouldn’t it be possible to be born a psychopath and then develop behavioral/psychological traits of any of the ASD’s? Or are you implying that they would simply be immune from any sort of external influence whatsoever… it’s kind of difficult to imagine, even as a child, that they’re simply completely teflon. Sorry if I’m going off track from your original post here… just so much I never thought about or knew…. So many questions!
I do enjoy the knowledge I’m gleaning from reading your work, so thank you!
Interestingly, most serial killers are neurotypical, but serial killing does not discriminate as to who it affects. It is found in all brain types. People often associate serial killing with psychopathy, but that is a myth.
There are certainly psychopathic serial killers, but they do not make up the majority of the ranks. Serial killing appears to be something separate, and without a clear answer to its cause. Perhaps in the future that will change with the advancements of imaging technology.
I have thought for a long time that the imaging technology wouldn't matter much, as to see what it is in the brain that is firing when serial killers are in the act could never be seen. We certainly, as a society, can't give serial killers a victim for the sake of research, but perhaps with the coming of virtual worlds that are indistinguishable from reality they can affect this same event without there being a living person. It brings to question some ethical debate, so that should be an interesting coming conundrum.
You have pointed out that someone who gets a kick out of killing is not a psychopath - that enjoyment of someone else’s pain requires empathy- of a sick sort but empathy nonetheless. Therefore I assume psychopathic killers do it to accomplish a particular goal. Killing would merely be a means to an end.
Athena: you haven't replied here yet, so I wanted to add this:
I do not experience a need or have a desire for revenge. Perhaps in the moment, I wish to strike back or the like, but I don't nurse, or keep, or maintain grudges.
Aren't many (not all) but many serial killers motivated in part by grudges or wanting to strike back or blaming others or similar?
If I'm off on this, please one of you just tell me! haha.
Serial killing seems to be some sort of urge, based on what serial killers themselves have described. It read to me to be similar to the draw that drugs have for some people. It builds until it is not able to be ignored, and "has" to be acted on.
Not that sort of thing, no, which makes me quite curious as to what the motivation is for a psychopathic serial killer. The act seems like such a waste of time and effort and I do not understand what the point would be.
If it was contract killing, I can understand that. It's a job. You do it and get paid. If you're good at it, you get paid a lot. That makes sense as a choice of a career, but serial killing seems like a lot of nonsense to me.
Trivial question, but putting aside addictions, and putting aside the flavour and knowledge/interest aspect of fine wines which is a thing in itself, is alcohol in any way pleasant for you? A bit relaxing (not that you need to de-stress), a bit spinny, a bit free-associative, anything nice at all?
Do you enjoy the little bit of buzz though? Separate from the ritual, the appreciation of wines etc. I'm just wondering about your brain's potential for liking those drug/dopamine buzz feelings.
(I ask because this is just part of a wider interest of mine in drugs, as a non drug user, as some drugs create a particular feeling which a person may or may not find pleasurable (hallucinogens, weed), while others seem to create actual direct pure brain pleasure for most people (heroin, meth) and therefore are pretty dangerous.)
I don't feel a buzz. I can drink quite a lot and still be fully present. It messes up my motor skills and my speech, but I can still recount everything I have done, where I have been, what I said. Alcohol doesn't cause me to feel differently. Though, on the rare occasions that I have consumed to excess, the people around me will feel uncomfortable if I drink as much, or more than them, but am still very aware. I can fake being intoxicated, and have, but I find it annoying to do, and hanging around with people that drink to get drunk is not appealing to me.
Interesting. Just as well that alcohol has so much in the way of taste and interest and heritage that there is lots to enjoy even if you feel no buzz pleasure. People who drink to get drunk feel that pleasure, they just go too far!
I wish you could expand on this post further. Of formation of memory and significant events -- as more than a code. Wish I could understand more clearly. Is there any hierarchy to your memories? Any experience more important than another, even cognitively?
I agree with the other commentator, your phenomenological descriptions are on point.
The analogies are good, I think.
If my friends cancelled a meeting or the series I enjoyed stopped I think I would have a single thought that it sucked and feel annoyed for a second and then stop caring. That is considering if I wanted to meet them or watch it at the moment. Many series I watch I forget about when they stop releasing and then remember about them 1000 years later when I want to watch them specifically. So I can apply the later to all situations that you have mentioned. Most of the time my experiences is like that.
I don’t think I can feel that about a person I really like though. If someone I really like dies, I will care, I will be sad and/or annoyed occasionally for a while. I have never grieved and missed a dead person though. I seem to handle a death of a close person differently from most people. I can think about them occasionally, feel sad or annoyed that they aren’t there anymore when I notice that I could have done something with them, but they are never my primary thought. I can think about them then do things I will normally do. I won’t have a desire to go to funerals too.
I think you are a little of the mark in your observations about how people code smells. I am a hardcore coffee drinker, I drink it many times a day in similar circumstances and I don’t associate the smell with anything. When I smell coffee, I think coffee. It doesn’t have any emotional associations either. I am not sure, but I think it is the norm for many people.
I’d be interested in hearing how you discovered and processed your difference from other people. Did you consciously adopt acting skills to fit in? If so, what made you believe ‘the mask’ was necessary or desirable? I can only think it was very puzzling at first. What was it like figuring this out? I can only think in your world, normals must seem like the crazy ones.
I had an older sister to compare myself to, so it simply took paying attention to see that she and I were very different. From there, family, friends, when I got to school other students, people at church. It was pretty obvious when I was old enough to be able to discern how I thought and how others did.
It also wasn't difficult to figure out that if I behaved how I consider "normal", I would have difficulty in the world that was inconvenient to me. Masking was the best choice. If you haven't read the post I did on the mask, it doesn't talk about the childhood aspect I don't think, just the mask and it's reasoning, here is that link.
My favourite childhood story of yours which was very illuminating is how your sister and her friends freaked themselves out into hysteria over a horror movie, and you were just going, 'HUH?'. I was one of those very easily spooked kids, hysterical from ghost stories at camp etc. But of course it makes no sense at all, there is no danger. For NTs, experiences like that are when we learn to fear our own brain. For you, the opposite, you'd know you could trust it.
Thank you for writing this, grasping at the mist or not, it's good to read whatever there is to tell. Holy moly, that's such a different way of being, though as a long term reader I am not surprised.
Meanwhile I have a fine distinction to try to make sense of, that of an adjustment being 'unwelcome and yet not unpleasant'. What does that even mean? Unwelcome means unpleasant, however mildly. I am drawn back to my old example of second choice of dessert. Technically a bummer, but so low on the scale it barely registers.
Interestingly, both the cancelled dinner and the cancelled favourite TV show examples are things I can see both ways. Both of these COULD be upsetting, depending, but looking back to my own real life examples, there were of course some times that because of circumstances, they actually weren't, the sense of regret lasted seconds. So these might not be such bad comparisons after all.
Or maybe: Dang, the moths ate my favourite overcoat. That's a nuisance, it will be hard to find another in that style, and an unwanted expense, and I wanted to wear it next week, and it looks great with my outfits. Bummer, but oh well, these things happen. Compared to, oh no, the moths ate my 20 year old classic overcoat, and that was the first complex garment I made to my own design, and it was modelled on the style of X, and I got such a good deal on the fabric at that store, my first time buying real cashmere, and I had saved up for it in my crappy job, and then my friend helped me draft the pattern and I learned so much about tailoring, and I wore it to that event and Y really fancied me and I was so excited by that, and I felt so elegant for once, and so on. NTs have had experiences in both categories, both with and without emotional coding in the memories, so I will just think of yours as always being the former. We put a lot of effort into trying to recast the latter as the former, 'don't sweat the small stuff', and it's very do-able. But that still leaves all the grief and fear and existential angst to be endured.
It's a crazy thing though, many neurotypicals are solution oriented people too, quite practical and sensible. That doesn't mean that they won't find themselves frozen or seemingly unable to put those solutions into action, as you have seen. You may look on and be mystified why this is so, when it's simple, and here are the steps, just do xyz. I draw an analogy that applies among neurotypicals. When we are are young and foolish, everyone has the answers to everyone else's problems. They seem straightforward, but eventually you realise there is often much more to it, details and explanations and mitigating factors that people don't care to share with you, and so eventually you realise that the usefulness of your advice can be limited and there's no point being exasperated about other people somehow not solving their 'simple' problems. In the case of your advice, it may well be great, and it could indeed solve the problem, but if you are advising a neurotypical there will likely be so many other factors and impediments and heaven knows what going on in there that would make no sense to you and which they may not even be conscious of themselves. It goes beyond just them being hampered by unhelpful emotions, it's a whole other landscape, and no, they may not just be being perverse or cowardly! Anyway, I guess you have found this out, I'm not saying anything revolutionary here.
I think people are aware of how much they code smells and how they can take them back in time and place and their emotional impact. Proust's madeleine put that into the popular imagination. Gasoline and blood might be a bit harder to sell!
Anyway, this has been a waffley comment. Take it as a sign of my enjoyment.
Hm, maybe unwelcome, but not unpleasant might be compared to getting an injection. If you have had them you know that the needle isn't something that you are excitedly waiting for, but the shot itself isn't unpleasant, it's just inconvenient and not something that you probably do if it wasn't something that you should do.
Athena, could the immediate realisation of losing a family member be compared with playing video game for hours, reaching almost to the end goal only for the game to end abruptly? Therefore being disappointed or surprised for a short period?
That's an interesting thought, and I suppose the answer would depend on how much that event would bother the person reading it. If someone is highly emotional, they may feel very let down by that experience. Someone else who is less emotional might just be a bit disappointed, and think, "well, that sucks."
On the side of it being a "well, that sucks", moment, yes, that would be a decent example.
Changing the sentence to: "That I do in fact, experience these things, and either don’t want to admit it, or I am dissociate from the emotions." doesn't read properly
You are correct - how about I am dissociated from the emotions. I think you knew that. I make a mistake.
Athena, what do you think works against a psychopath? I read a "machiavellian" state that the best thing is to make you want what they want...
I have seen this happen I believe. If someone by any chance managed to deceive a psychopath into thinking to be someone they're not then since they're "in the circle" it is easy to control this since you're seen with "good eyes".
I need to get myself ready. I wish I could have the same mental capabilities but I'm heavily held back.
Nope. I would still have to tell myself what it is. Interestingly, if I don't, sometimes I will smell something that I know is something that I like, but cannot for the life of me determine what it is. It is just a familiar pleasant smell, but without intentionally coding it, there is nothing there for me to give it a name.
I always find your posts so interesting because you describe so well your experiences and how they relate to your understanding of neurotypical experiences. One thought I had is it seems the foundation others build their life on for stability also makes them vulnerable to collapse if those pieces are removed (like a Jenga). However perhaps for you, your sense of stability is central to your core being, and not on external constructs, so you're much more versatile to changes in the environment.
That would make sense, and it would explain a good deal of the differences between psychopaths and others.
I accept everything you say about emotional non-bonding,lack of chemical attachment, etc. In that context your statements about how you do not react to loss or terrible events seen by you that have happened to other people make perfect sense. I'm wondering though, how you or someone like you would face any illness or injury that goes beyond mere inconvenience up to and including the possible loss of your life. In what ways would your experiences of these things be like or unlike what you describe above?
I actually answered these two exact questions over on Quora.
Here is what I said:
https://www.quora.com/How-would-a-psychopath-and-sociopath-react-to-a-terminal-diagnosis
All right.
What else is there to do? I would pursue all possible treatments, I prefer living, but it is what it is. Outside of doing whatever I can do, there isn’t much else to do.
If you are asking about emotional aspects, death has never bothered me. I have nearly died a few times, and I never had any fear kick in, no desire to change my life in any way, as I already live exactly how I want to live, and I had no regrets about how my life had been conducted thus far.
I might die today. A cow might fall through my roof and crush me in my bed (no really… this actually happened to a man, and yes it killed him), or a sinkhole might open up and I fall to my death. It isn’t something that occupies my mind. Illness doesn’t either. I deal with what needs to be dealt with, and the rest plays out however it’s going to.
I spoke about this in better detail addressing chronic illness, and I don’t see much of an difference;
Much like all adversity in life, we just handle it. There isn’t stress involved with it. If we choose to be responsible in dealing with the illness we are great patients. We don’t give the medical staff a difficult time. We are compliant in our treatment plans. We just do what’s necessary as it’s part of life to be managed.
There are of course psychopaths, like any other individual, that won’t treat it seriously. They ignore treatment, and do nothing to maintain themselves. I would guess this would be more of a low functioning psychopath that would do this though.
Psychopaths are very adaptable. No matter what circumstance you toss us into, we just deal with it. There is a great quote in the movie, Catch me if you can.
Two little mice fell in a bucket of cream. The first mouse quickly gave up and drowned. The second mouse, wouldn't quit. He struggled so hard that eventually he churned that cream into butter and crawled out. Gentlemen, as of this moment, I am that second mouse.
Frank Abagnale Sr
It’s actually a bit perplexing to me that illness and injury seems to sideline neurotypicals so much. It appears that the emotional impact of being sick changes their prognosis. It is easier to just deal with it. It is what it is. You have this problem, this problem is addressed by walking these steps. Start walking. Sitting down in the middle of the path for a cry is a waste of time and energy.
https://www.quora.com/How-do-psychopaths-deal-with-chronic-disease/answer/Athena-Walker
Thanks for this. It sounds like a well-adjusted psychopath might have considerable advantages in dealing with life's difficulties compared to we neurotypicals. Of course as you note throughout your writing on this topic, there are disadvantages as well.
Not many disadvantages.
But.. some of them could lead to an unintentional fatality due to lack of fear... so... they may be few, but they can be quite life-changing, or ending.
Yes, exactly, Athena. Pain is a signal from the body that something is or may be the matter and likely will need to be dealt with. People who are unable to experience physical pain are at risk of harm because without that signal they may not even know there is a problem.I imagine it's potentially similar with someone who does not feel fear, which is a signal from the mind that there is something potentially dangerous afoot.
There is a very interesting case of a UK woman who seems to be an anomaly. Most people born unable to feel pain not surprisingly have innumerable injuries since toddler age and very damaged bodies as adults. But this woman, in addition to a very "chilled" disposition, has none of that. She is uninjured. She lives a normal cheerful life and seems not to hurt herself. She even felt no pain at all in childbirth. She always just assumed that others must just feel more than she does, which is true. But it doesn't explain her lack of pain and yet a life of no injury. It might be a long time before we have an explanation of this phenomenon.
Small qualification. She did not notice age related degenerative changes and if I remember correctly, only saw the doctor about her bad hips when she heard bones grinding and couldn't walk. So I guess that is self injury. Still, she got off lightly overall.
Fair enough. It's like NTs having to outgrow their youthful poor risk assessment without killing themselves first. So for you, even more so.
Indeed
You have written about sudden shifts in circumstances and the brief process of adjustment. And illness requires action and following a path. But I wonder about circumstances where there is no action to be taken. Things that just must be endured, even though they are not preferable.
Deal with it. There really isn't any other option. Make arrangements, clean out my stuff so other people wouldn't have to, decide if I want to go all the way through the illness or end it on my terms, handle anything else that needs to be done, do a bunch of things that I enjoy, and when it happens, it happens.
I was thinking more of situations other than illness. And where there is little possibility of finding a silver lining. Ongoing uncomfortable detainment, say.
There is always a silver lining. Being ill puts you in a place that you have never been before, which then introduces things that you would never experience otherwise. There is always something that makes anything interesting.
I cannot come up with any redeeming features from my own illnesses. Oh well!
It’s fascinating to hear about having essentially no emotion. I wonder: does this affect humor? Can you find anything funny? Second question: what about ambition? I’m guessing status games would be of very little interest. I would also guess that boredom plus lack of fear could lead down some dangerous paths. It’s almost as if you would need to be cognitively alert, as you seem to be, to avoid trouble. This is where emotions help those of us that have them. At times, something just feels “off.” You can ignore it and proceed, which is why there is so much out there about listening to your gut. Is there a psychopathic equivalent of the gut check, or is everything purely a cognitive evaluation of the circumstances?
Psychopaths have emotion, it is just muted, though some are missing.
What would you consider a "status game", I am not familiar with the term?
Yes, boredom and lack of fear can be a very nasty combination. I don't know that I believe in instinct so much as I think that it is the subconscious picking up on external clues but the sensation is that of what people call instinct. I pay a great deal of attention to details, so while I don't have the feeling, I think I cognitively fill that experience.
It takes time to learn of course, but so does instinct. Perhaps, however, I'm wrong about instinct. It's hard to say really. I do tend to pick up on people that have underhanded intentions that nearly everyone I know. The only two people that are better at is my Significant Other, and the other psychopath that I know.
Emotions are so weird
I had an experience several years ago when my dog was hit by a car
I cried
Thing was that I was sort of amazed at what was happening, a few sobs and a few tears then the episode was over.
It wasn't pleasant or particularly profound but it happened then vanished about as fast as a flash of anger would be.
Now that is interesting. I am going to pay very close attention next time something like that happens and see if I can find that signal in the white noise. Are you familiar with Joseph Newman's Attention Theory in regard to psychopathy? If not, I'll link it for you. I imagine you will be quite interested in his thoughts on the matter.
I was finally able to watch that and it was very interesting and tracks with things I've noticed about myself. BTW the comments for that video was full of people who were terribly offended by Dr. Newman's theory , go figure
It is very rare that psychopathy doesn't offend people. They need it to be evil, because if we aren't the epitome of evil, they might have to face the possibility that they are more than capable of it themselves. That's very disquieting, so they get very angry at the mere suggestion that they are wrong.
I recall back when I was 20 and working in a chemical research lab. One of the other techs there commented to the rest of the techs when I was not in the break room that I was "the most evil man he'd ever met". Some of my friends told me about it and they found it amusing. The guy was extremely religious and despite the fact that I didn't have any drug habits or engage in any of the morally offensive stuff some of the others got up to I was recognized as "evil"
Please link, I'd like to read it too.
Here is the video of him talking about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmZgnCHweLM&feature=emb_logo
Here is it written out if you aren't interested in the whole thing, as it only takes up a portion of the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmZgnCHweLM&feature=emb_logo
“Let me be clear about one thing, is that some people look at my attention theory and think that I’m denying that there’s a emotion deficit in psychopaths, but that’s not the case. I mean their emotion deficit is what really does distinguish them from other criminals. And so, where does that come from? Are they really incapable of fear, or is it a matter of attention. And in order to really answer that question you have to do well controlled experiments in the laboratory, is my view of it. The way you can do the is you can present threatening information, information that means they have to inhibit a response or they’re going to be punished. And you can look at their ability to learn that inhibition under different conditions. What we have done over the years is if the threat cues are something they are paying attention to, then they show that they care about it. They’re motivated to learn about those cues and they’ll inhibit behavior and regulate behavior quite well. But if you redirect their attention, if you get them focused on getting some reward and then periodically if they do the wrong thing, you also punish them, now you’ve set up a division where the threat cues, or the emotion related cues are peripheral to what they’re focusing on and that’s where they look deficient.”
[Dr. Joseph Newman]
Gosh!
Thank you.
Of course.
I'm not familiar with that, I'd be really interested to read it
Here is the video of him talking about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmZgnCHweLM&feature=emb_logo
Here is it written out if you aren't interested in the whole thing, as it only takes up a portion of the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmZgnCHweLM&feature=emb_logo
“Let me be clear about one thing, is that some people look at my attention theory and think that I’m denying that there’s a emotion deficit in psychopaths, but that’s not the case. I mean their emotion deficit is what really does distinguish them from other criminals. And so, where does that come from? Are they really incapable of fear, or is it a matter of attention. And in order to really answer that question you have to do well controlled experiments in the laboratory, is my view of it. The way you can do the is you can present threatening information, information that means they have to inhibit a response or they’re going to be punished. And you can look at their ability to learn that inhibition under different conditions. What we have done over the years is if the threat cues are something they are paying attention to, then they show that they care about it. They’re motivated to learn about those cues and they’ll inhibit behavior and regulate behavior quite well. But if you redirect their attention, if you get them focused on getting some reward and then periodically if they do the wrong thing, you also punish them, now you’ve set up a division where the threat cues, or the emotion related cues are peripheral to what they’re focusing on and that’s where they look deficient.”
[Dr. Joseph Newman]
I had a similar experience a couple of times.
Invisigoth, are you a psycopath? Sorry if I'm missing the obvious here, but I don't know if your posts are from a psycopath, someone with some psycopathic traits, a questioner, a NT oddball, or whatever. Either way, your dog experience is amazing. If it was felt however briefly, well, sometimes it's the people that can straddle two worlds that have the best insights.
I have a number of traits plus I can’t be addicted to anything. I found that out after surgery where I was on opioids and had no issues despite taking a LOT of drugs
Often when you comment I see a great number of parallels to how I think. Obviously I can't diagnose anyone, but you seem to be quite consistent with psychopathy
When I first started reading your stuff it sounded like you were talking about me on a regular basis
Interesting, and for all of us too on our journeys, though I am NT. Any other addictive substances though? I am from a country where codeine was until recently available freely over the counter and it always just killed pain when necessary but never gave me any jollies and was never overused. And I have had awake surgery with fentanyl only (I sweet-talked the anaesthetist to allow me to avoid an unwanted GA) and felt nothing pleasant at all that made me want to repeat it. But I have been massively hooked on nicotine. Can we generalise from one drug to another?
Lacking whatever brain chemistry that facilitates addiction is part of psychopathy. Athena can explain better than I can
Grape Soda says 'essentially no emotion'. You have written about this in detail. There is a huge list of completely unfelt emotions that are an equally huge part of the NT life experience. It's most things, really. Then there are a few mild things more like moods that you do feel a bit. So for you, you say it's just enough to know what emotion is. While for the NT reading your experience, it amounts to 'essentially no emotion'. It is so far from NT experience that that phrase is sort of accurate. I have thought carefully about this comment and realise that there is no way I can phrase it that doesn't sound rude and dismissive of your experience, or 'superior', god forbid. That is not my intention. I am glad that you have whatever emptional experience you do have because for me its all about people understanding each other and finding commonality.
I agree that there is no magic to instinct, it's just us noticing the things we don't notice, so to speak, and very useful it is. Now if we could have your cognitive attention to detail as well, we'd be invulnerable! Practice practice....
That's a fair point.
"Lack of Fear" must take on a very different hue male vs. female experience. I mostly travel alot and I go places and do some things others think are very dangerous or risky. I find these experiences very valuable and learn about other people from them.
I do not experience "boredom". People (by which I mean women) told me even going to the supermarket is fun with me.
Yes, I imagine that it is very different. Males and females have very different experiences in the world, and it always interests me to try to understand the position which I am not in.
Yes, me too! In terms of travel, as a single, particularly in "poor" countries, males do not contend with threats to their physical safety. I travel alone. I meet people without the complex issues of sex hanging on every interaction. I'm not sure if a female can do that without very high probability of being assaulted.
That would be unlikely. It would be unnecessary risk.
And those of us who appraise the risk and don't take it feel pretty unhappy to be female.
That's me. I am a female adventure traveller, and am acutely aware of the male/female difference. And it seriously sucks. There is no freedom or spontaneity, only detailed planning, umrelenting vigilance, and exhausting constant juggling of experience vs risk, and all the attendant frustrating limitations. Yeah, some silly girls jump on the back of a motorbike 'taxi' into town for clubbing at night in Uganda, but just no. It's constant anxiety, oh god, my flight is delayed and I'll arrive at night, oh god, the local taxis are unsafe without an app I cannot download, oh god, is my Islamic clothing sufficiently anonymous, oh god, this 'bus' may offload me anywhere at night, is there even a legit bus station? The male travellers I meet, well, the things they do! We women inhabit a lesser world unfortunately.
Humans are dangerous creatures indeed
Well said: Sorry of the situation, but you put it really well.
Most people will experience negative emotions in the situations you described. But at the same time, neurotypicals won't have an emotional response *every* time, say, they die in a video game or someone insults them. Only some of the time, they will feel frustration, disappointment, anger, or even relief (in the case of the video game).
Trying to think about why that is, the times I felt nothing towards something that might otherwise be negative, I did not actually have the preference you describe. E.g. I keep getting killed by a boss in a video game. But I'm enjoying this battle so much, that's not really an issue.
Desire and emotion seem to always go hand-in-hand with neurotypicals (I have ADHD but I assume this will work the same way for neurotypicals, anyway).
I think I can construct a scenario in which I feel nothing in response to a failing, though. Say, I am given a task. I must flip a coin until it lands heads up. I'd rather it land hands up the first time I flip it, but if it is tails, I have no emotional response to this. (this stops working as the number of flips increase and I start feeling impatient annoyance).
Now thinking about that, I wonder. Can a psychopath truly have desires without emotions backing them? Or would it be more accurate to call these "intentions" or "goals" than desires? I know you still feel dopamine rush, so not sure. I once read that psychopaths act on weak impulses because they have even weaker inhibitions. I can imagine then, that psychopaths may often just go through the motions, doing things that they don't think are important, and in fact barely put any thought into at all. This sound right?
When you say "go through the motions", what are you referring to?
When there is something that I want to do, emotion doesn't drive me, interest does. It looks interesting, it looks fun. I like interesting and fun things. Or, perhaps it looks hard. I like challenges, so that would be another motivator.
However, if something is hard, but not interesting, the challenge won't intrigue me. No interest means no appeal and no engagement.
When I say "going through the motions," I mean doing what comes naturally or perhaps habitually without much thought or motivation. Indeed, when I do this, Its so unimportant to me I'm not even paying attention and may not remember later, but ADHD inattentional case is an extreme here.
Interest as in "intrigue"? Or "excitement?" Those are emotions as well. Seeking that or seeking to alleviate boredom are still emotionally driven desires.
At least it is like that for me. I know you once said you experienced the biological fear adrenal response but not the emotion of fear. Do you feel intrigue or is it another case like fear?
For me, for ADHD people, intrigue-seeking and boredom-aversion are the ever-present drives. And yes, I like challenges if they are interesting. I can become very singularly focused for days on end by something I find fascinating, or be so caught up in it that I ignore things like self preservation. As soon as that fascination is gone, I drop it, whether I finished my original goal or not and move on to the next thing I find stimulating.
On the outside, this relationship with interest looks more psychopathic than neurotypical. But I suspect there are major differences. "psychopaths act on weak impulses because they have even weaker inhibitions." Not the case for me. Inhibitions may be weaker than neurotypicals, but my impulses driven emotions like intrigue are strong. Its not even "intrigue" usually; it normally goes beyond that to fascination.
Intrigue isn't an emotion in my mind. It takes no emotion to find something interesting, intriguing, or to have curiosity. Excitement is an emotion, that I agree with. I have my version of it, but it isn't anything like that of a neurotypical.
That makes me think of an interesting possible post you could do, describing the emotions you do feel, the circumstances, some anecdotes, the intensity, your subjective experience of them. That's if there is enough material! I'm sure there would be, even if these are things you don't pay much attention to or reflect on.
I did one on the emotional experiences of psychopaths, but I don't have emotional coding of memories, so I can't give you examples. That's not how my brain works.
I went back and read it, great post, lots of detail. But most of the things you describe feeling mightn't necessarily be called emotions, as you yourself say. Moods, states, attitudes perhaps. Your version of awe sounded more like a degree of interest and engagement where one doesn't want to look away, combined with a cognitive recognition of something's amazingness, but maybe I'm wrong here. I suppose I'm intrigued by your happiness as an elevated version of contentment and what conditions bring this about, and also how excitement feels without a habit of anticipation. These might be closest to what NTs feel, in character if not intensity. All I can ask is, if something occurs to you in future, you note some experience, please share!
What emotions do you mean in “desire and emotions”?
By "desire" I mean any compulsion to take or avoid a course of action and the accompanying emotion.
Neurotypical desire seems (almost) entirely motivated by emotions. E.g. the pursuit of happiness, the avoidance of sadness, or the preservation of pride. This last one can also apply to psychopaths, but of course, to a lesser degree. People have some idea of who they are or want to be and who they don't want to be.
Imagine you come face to face with a tiger. You are instantly stricken with fear. You feel a strong desire to run.
That is a simplistic example, but this also applies to more complex logical behavior. Let's say "Bob" is a factory worker. Bob gets up every night at 6 PM and works a grueling night shift. How could emotions possibly be the motivation for this behavior? Well, Bob has quite a lot of emotions motivating him, actually. He's afraid of being fired and then being unable to pay his rent. He desires to have the money to eat out a lot because nice food gives him moments of happiness. When he thinks ahead, he can already feel a shadow of these emotions and this becomes motivation.
You put it well.
Oh that makes more sense. Thank you.
I too wonder about the level of desire without emotion. That it is there to some degree, well obviously, because of psycopaths' actual choices and preferences. But it sounds like 'Mars or Snickers?'. And yet there is some factor operating there to make life choices more important than a candy bar, but without any elation to chase or suffering to avoid, even if it is not what we would think of. I await the Vulcan mind meld.....
It might be that ‘desires’ or ‘motivations’ may be working without conscious involvement, and that this conscious feedback loop is disrupted or missing. The analogy would be patients with a brain trauma that has rendered them blind but who can still navigate their way down a corridor full of obstacles. Whether these processes involve neurotransmitters or other parts of the endocrine system or neural networks would be interesting to establish. On this basis, it could be argued that desire has a non emotional component that could be quite powerful; a subconscious driving force.
Hi, I’m brand new to your website, so forgive me if I ask questions that you may have already covered elsewhere. I’m curious about folks with certain antisocial personality disorders who abuse alcohol and/or other drugs. I could be totally off base on all this but I’m super curious on your thoughts. I’ve heard that with any disorder, people can present on a spectrum… do you find this to be the case with psychopathy and sociopathy? Would this explain why some people with any of the so-called “dark triad” traits (Psychopath, Sociopath, Narcissist) who might not be on the more significant end of the spectrum, could potentially fall into substance abuse? And, if so, wouldn’t this be a certain way for those folks to deal with loss, life upsets, negative events, inability or failure to get their way etc? I’ve heard intelligence can play a huge factor as well.
I dated a man of whom I’m fairly certain fell somewhere within that triad (most likely socio or psychopath) but I feel like he had some awareness of his behavior and that it somewhat tortured him. And he drank. A lot. He also had a niece who was murdered… i had already started to suspect him of not being an an NT by then… he drank extremely heavy after this happened and I had the feeling that the alcohol helped him “perform” the right emotions that were expected of him. But I could be wrong.
Also, I totally understand if one were to say, “well if he was truly a socio- or psychopath, even if he had awareness of his behaviors, it wouldn’t phase him at all…. But that’s where I wonder if people can be on a spectrum... and wouldn’t alcohol and drugs be a great way to escape? What do you think?
I also completely understand that I am not a psychiatrist and cannot diagnose him… my theory is based on speculation… which is based on a lot of truly odd and often shocking or even frightening behavior.
He will forever remain a complete mystery to me…. I was addicted to him (mainly because of the sex… because it was dangerous and thrilling… he liked to choke me. And I always had a feeling he was always holding himself back. I’m glad he broke up with me because I couldn’t get away).
Anyhow, sorry, I digressed…. Thoughts on the spectrum and those who abuse sunbatances?
Anyone can be labeled as antisocial provided that they behave to criteria for the diagnosis. It is a terrible diagnosis for that very reason.
Psychopaths cannot be addicted to anything and do not get the emotional payoff that drugs and alcohol provide others. It's a pointless venture for us. Researchers are trying to figure out if they can use this aspect of how we respond to things of this nature to help addicts. For us drinking or drugs do not work the way that they do in others.
Psychopathy does not relate to personality disorders like sociopathy, NPD, HPD, as we are born as we are. Everything in us is hardwired. You are born a psychopath, or you are not one. We should not be considered in the psychological realm, but rather the neurologic one.
The rest of them are created through having to adapt to a toxic home environment. As such, drugs and alcohol are things that people who are dealing with terrible things may decide to use. This is not uncommon in adults that had bad home lives.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond. You must get something out of responding to all of us who are pretty ignorant of all this.
I guess I assumed that some serial killers used alcohol (such as Dahmer) or drugs as a means to deal with their so called “demons”… are you saying that he would not be considered a psychopath? I know it’s probably cliche for NT’s to assume most serial killers are psychopaths…. But all those true crime shows with the “talking head” psychiatrists like to tell us that they are… like the show “Signs of a Pschopath”… would Israel Keyes not be considered a psychopath? Wouldn’t it be possible to be born a psychopath and then develop behavioral/psychological traits of any of the ASD’s? Or are you implying that they would simply be immune from any sort of external influence whatsoever… it’s kind of difficult to imagine, even as a child, that they’re simply completely teflon. Sorry if I’m going off track from your original post here… just so much I never thought about or knew…. So many questions!
I do enjoy the knowledge I’m gleaning from reading your work, so thank you!
I actually specifically addressed a few serial killers here, Dahmer included, here:
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/serial-killers?s=w
Interestingly, most serial killers are neurotypical, but serial killing does not discriminate as to who it affects. It is found in all brain types. People often associate serial killing with psychopathy, but that is a myth.
There are certainly psychopathic serial killers, but they do not make up the majority of the ranks. Serial killing appears to be something separate, and without a clear answer to its cause. Perhaps in the future that will change with the advancements of imaging technology.
I have thought for a long time that the imaging technology wouldn't matter much, as to see what it is in the brain that is firing when serial killers are in the act could never be seen. We certainly, as a society, can't give serial killers a victim for the sake of research, but perhaps with the coming of virtual worlds that are indistinguishable from reality they can affect this same event without there being a living person. It brings to question some ethical debate, so that should be an interesting coming conundrum.
You have pointed out that someone who gets a kick out of killing is not a psychopath - that enjoyment of someone else’s pain requires empathy- of a sick sort but empathy nonetheless. Therefore I assume psychopathic killers do it to accomplish a particular goal. Killing would merely be a means to an end.
That would be my assumption as well
Athena: you haven't replied here yet, so I wanted to add this:
I do not experience a need or have a desire for revenge. Perhaps in the moment, I wish to strike back or the like, but I don't nurse, or keep, or maintain grudges.
Aren't many (not all) but many serial killers motivated in part by grudges or wanting to strike back or blaming others or similar?
If I'm off on this, please one of you just tell me! haha.
Best-
Serial killing seems to be some sort of urge, based on what serial killers themselves have described. It read to me to be similar to the draw that drugs have for some people. It builds until it is not able to be ignored, and "has" to be acted on.
yes!!! Exactly what isn't and can NOT be experienced by Psychopaths. Did I overstate this?
Not that sort of thing, no, which makes me quite curious as to what the motivation is for a psychopathic serial killer. The act seems like such a waste of time and effort and I do not understand what the point would be.
If it was contract killing, I can understand that. It's a job. You do it and get paid. If you're good at it, you get paid a lot. That makes sense as a choice of a career, but serial killing seems like a lot of nonsense to me.
Trivial question, but putting aside addictions, and putting aside the flavour and knowledge/interest aspect of fine wines which is a thing in itself, is alcohol in any way pleasant for you? A bit relaxing (not that you need to de-stress), a bit spinny, a bit free-associative, anything nice at all?
I enjoy red wine. I usually have a glass each night.
Do you enjoy the little bit of buzz though? Separate from the ritual, the appreciation of wines etc. I'm just wondering about your brain's potential for liking those drug/dopamine buzz feelings.
(I ask because this is just part of a wider interest of mine in drugs, as a non drug user, as some drugs create a particular feeling which a person may or may not find pleasurable (hallucinogens, weed), while others seem to create actual direct pure brain pleasure for most people (heroin, meth) and therefore are pretty dangerous.)
I don't feel a buzz. I can drink quite a lot and still be fully present. It messes up my motor skills and my speech, but I can still recount everything I have done, where I have been, what I said. Alcohol doesn't cause me to feel differently. Though, on the rare occasions that I have consumed to excess, the people around me will feel uncomfortable if I drink as much, or more than them, but am still very aware. I can fake being intoxicated, and have, but I find it annoying to do, and hanging around with people that drink to get drunk is not appealing to me.
Interesting. Just as well that alcohol has so much in the way of taste and interest and heritage that there is lots to enjoy even if you feel no buzz pleasure. People who drink to get drunk feel that pleasure, they just go too far!
I wish you could expand on this post further. Of formation of memory and significant events -- as more than a code. Wish I could understand more clearly. Is there any hierarchy to your memories? Any experience more important than another, even cognitively?
They are filed as things that happened. I explained this in detail in the post I gave you the link to. There isn't anything more to it.
I agree with the other commentator, your phenomenological descriptions are on point.
The analogies are good, I think.
If my friends cancelled a meeting or the series I enjoyed stopped I think I would have a single thought that it sucked and feel annoyed for a second and then stop caring. That is considering if I wanted to meet them or watch it at the moment. Many series I watch I forget about when they stop releasing and then remember about them 1000 years later when I want to watch them specifically. So I can apply the later to all situations that you have mentioned. Most of the time my experiences is like that.
I don’t think I can feel that about a person I really like though. If someone I really like dies, I will care, I will be sad and/or annoyed occasionally for a while. I have never grieved and missed a dead person though. I seem to handle a death of a close person differently from most people. I can think about them occasionally, feel sad or annoyed that they aren’t there anymore when I notice that I could have done something with them, but they are never my primary thought. I can think about them then do things I will normally do. I won’t have a desire to go to funerals too.
I think you are a little of the mark in your observations about how people code smells. I am a hardcore coffee drinker, I drink it many times a day in similar circumstances and I don’t associate the smell with anything. When I smell coffee, I think coffee. It doesn’t have any emotional associations either. I am not sure, but I think it is the norm for many people.
Have you ever been able to bond to a person, or have you ever fallen in love?
I have never fallen in love, as for bonding, I am not sure, but I don’t think so.
My thinking is that we generally have some smells which are meaningful and others which are not.
I’d be interested in hearing how you discovered and processed your difference from other people. Did you consciously adopt acting skills to fit in? If so, what made you believe ‘the mask’ was necessary or desirable? I can only think it was very puzzling at first. What was it like figuring this out? I can only think in your world, normals must seem like the crazy ones.
I had an older sister to compare myself to, so it simply took paying attention to see that she and I were very different. From there, family, friends, when I got to school other students, people at church. It was pretty obvious when I was old enough to be able to discern how I thought and how others did.
It also wasn't difficult to figure out that if I behaved how I consider "normal", I would have difficulty in the world that was inconvenient to me. Masking was the best choice. If you haven't read the post I did on the mask, it doesn't talk about the childhood aspect I don't think, just the mask and it's reasoning, here is that link.
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/the-mask?s=w
My favourite childhood story of yours which was very illuminating is how your sister and her friends freaked themselves out into hysteria over a horror movie, and you were just going, 'HUH?'. I was one of those very easily spooked kids, hysterical from ghost stories at camp etc. But of course it makes no sense at all, there is no danger. For NTs, experiences like that are when we learn to fear our own brain. For you, the opposite, you'd know you could trust it.
Thank you for writing this, grasping at the mist or not, it's good to read whatever there is to tell. Holy moly, that's such a different way of being, though as a long term reader I am not surprised.
Meanwhile I have a fine distinction to try to make sense of, that of an adjustment being 'unwelcome and yet not unpleasant'. What does that even mean? Unwelcome means unpleasant, however mildly. I am drawn back to my old example of second choice of dessert. Technically a bummer, but so low on the scale it barely registers.
Interestingly, both the cancelled dinner and the cancelled favourite TV show examples are things I can see both ways. Both of these COULD be upsetting, depending, but looking back to my own real life examples, there were of course some times that because of circumstances, they actually weren't, the sense of regret lasted seconds. So these might not be such bad comparisons after all.
Or maybe: Dang, the moths ate my favourite overcoat. That's a nuisance, it will be hard to find another in that style, and an unwanted expense, and I wanted to wear it next week, and it looks great with my outfits. Bummer, but oh well, these things happen. Compared to, oh no, the moths ate my 20 year old classic overcoat, and that was the first complex garment I made to my own design, and it was modelled on the style of X, and I got such a good deal on the fabric at that store, my first time buying real cashmere, and I had saved up for it in my crappy job, and then my friend helped me draft the pattern and I learned so much about tailoring, and I wore it to that event and Y really fancied me and I was so excited by that, and I felt so elegant for once, and so on. NTs have had experiences in both categories, both with and without emotional coding in the memories, so I will just think of yours as always being the former. We put a lot of effort into trying to recast the latter as the former, 'don't sweat the small stuff', and it's very do-able. But that still leaves all the grief and fear and existential angst to be endured.
It's a crazy thing though, many neurotypicals are solution oriented people too, quite practical and sensible. That doesn't mean that they won't find themselves frozen or seemingly unable to put those solutions into action, as you have seen. You may look on and be mystified why this is so, when it's simple, and here are the steps, just do xyz. I draw an analogy that applies among neurotypicals. When we are are young and foolish, everyone has the answers to everyone else's problems. They seem straightforward, but eventually you realise there is often much more to it, details and explanations and mitigating factors that people don't care to share with you, and so eventually you realise that the usefulness of your advice can be limited and there's no point being exasperated about other people somehow not solving their 'simple' problems. In the case of your advice, it may well be great, and it could indeed solve the problem, but if you are advising a neurotypical there will likely be so many other factors and impediments and heaven knows what going on in there that would make no sense to you and which they may not even be conscious of themselves. It goes beyond just them being hampered by unhelpful emotions, it's a whole other landscape, and no, they may not just be being perverse or cowardly! Anyway, I guess you have found this out, I'm not saying anything revolutionary here.
I think people are aware of how much they code smells and how they can take them back in time and place and their emotional impact. Proust's madeleine put that into the popular imagination. Gasoline and blood might be a bit harder to sell!
Anyway, this has been a waffley comment. Take it as a sign of my enjoyment.
Hm, maybe unwelcome, but not unpleasant might be compared to getting an injection. If you have had them you know that the needle isn't something that you are excitedly waiting for, but the shot itself isn't unpleasant, it's just inconvenient and not something that you probably do if it wasn't something that you should do.
Hmm, I am totally indifferent to needles. How wonderful to have everything in life feel no more unwelcome than that!
Love your example of moths eating the coat! Awesome!
Thanks. The moths haven't eaten it yet!
Athena, could the immediate realisation of losing a family member be compared with playing video game for hours, reaching almost to the end goal only for the game to end abruptly? Therefore being disappointed or surprised for a short period?
That's an interesting thought, and I suppose the answer would depend on how much that event would bother the person reading it. If someone is highly emotional, they may feel very let down by that experience. Someone else who is less emotional might just be a bit disappointed, and think, "well, that sucks."
On the side of it being a "well, that sucks", moment, yes, that would be a decent example.
Thanks for the clarification.
Excellent work and perhaps the best I have read of your work. Congratulations on a fine writing.
I got alot out of it and learned alot. Thanks!
Thank you, Tim
New here, it's an interesting perspective to see, do you have any type of feelings about death if there's no fear of it?
No, it is just a thing that will occur at some point.
Also, welcome. Let me know if you have any other questions.
Changing the sentence to: "That I do in fact, experience these things, and either don’t want to admit it, or I am dissociate from the emotions." doesn't read properly
You are correct - how about I am dissociated from the emotions. I think you knew that. I make a mistake.
“ That I do in fact, experience these things, and either don’t want to admit it, or I am disassociating from the emotions.” should be dissociate.
Changing the sentence to:
"That I do in fact, experience these things, and either don’t want to admit it, or I am dissociate from the emotions."
doesn't read properly
Could be dissociating or I am dissociated. Disassociate is a different word and not what you mean I think.
Athena, what do you think works against a psychopath? I read a "machiavellian" state that the best thing is to make you want what they want...
I have seen this happen I believe. If someone by any chance managed to deceive a psychopath into thinking to be someone they're not then since they're "in the circle" it is easy to control this since you're seen with "good eyes".
I need to get myself ready. I wish I could have the same mental capabilities but I'm heavily held back.
What works in what regard?
Did you ever face someone psychopathic in your life that held an antagonist position with you?
Possibly one of my teachers. He was fun to go back and forth with. Everyone else was terrified of him, I thought he was amusing.
I have numerous questions, if you can answer any of them I’d appreciate your insight.
1). What did this teacher do that terrified others?
2). Why you would go back and forth with a teacher that is considered scary?
3). Wouldn’t that lead to inconvenient trouble for you?
4). How old were you?
5). Do you think he enjoyed going back and forth with you?
Did he respect you for not being scared of him?
6). Generally speaking, was this teacher good at his job?
7). What makes you think he was potentially a psychopath?
8). Were any of your teachers frightened of you?
9). Have you ever experienced bullying, how did you respond if so?
10). Were any of your fellow students frightened of you?
11). Generally speaking, did you find school enjoyable or boring?
12). During your schooling were you well behaved or known as a problem student?
13). Were you a popular child?
Unfortunately, the answer to many of your questions is, I have no idea. Specifically, part of 5, 6, 8, 9, 10,and 13.
1. He was strict and had no problem being very intimidating when he was displeased. His nickname was, Satan, and he responded to that nickname.
2. It was fun
3. I was young and didn't care. It was fun.
4, High school
5. He seemed to enjoy it as it always made him smile, but I never asked. To the second question, no idea.
6. Best in the school.
7. Just who he was overall. I could understand him. He lacked the neurotypical experience.
8. No idea
9. I wouldn't have noticed. I never cared what other people thought.
10. No idea. Never cared what they thought
11. Boring. I never wanted to be there.
12. I never tried to be either. I just did what I wanted
13. No idea. Didn't care.
Thanks you for your answers.
1). If you had to be a teacher to a student or students who appeared to be psychopathic, how would you do it?
2). If you passed this teacher in the street today,
would you stop to speak to him as you’d potentially enjoy the interaction?
3). If he stopped you would you engage with him or ignore him?
4). A) If you found school boring does that mean you got bad grades?
B) Or did you study hard and get good grades as it could offer rewards you wanted?
5). Do you have any friends that you knew from childhood?
6). Have you been tempted to go to school reunions as you might enjoy the experience?
7). When you were a child / teenager would you have intervened if you saw someone being verbally or physically abused?
8). If you saw a situation where a person or group be verbally/ physically abused would you potentially intervene directly?
I recall a situation where you put yourself at physical risk, to help your sister deal with an abusive BF.
Emotional Empathy and thinking psychopathy.
How about positive experiences, for instance if you like the flavor of coffee, do you have an emotional component to smelling it again unexpectedly?
Nope. I would still have to tell myself what it is. Interestingly, if I don't, sometimes I will smell something that I know is something that I like, but cannot for the life of me determine what it is. It is just a familiar pleasant smell, but without intentionally coding it, there is nothing there for me to give it a name.