I always find your posts so interesting because you describe so well your experiences and how they relate to your understanding of neurotypical experiences. One thought I had is it seems the foundation others build their life on for stability also makes them vulnerable to collapse if those pieces are removed (like a Jenga). However perhaps for you, your sense of stability is central to your core being, and not on external constructs, so you're much more versatile to changes in the environment.
I accept everything you say about emotional non-bonding,lack of chemical attachment, etc. In that context your statements about how you do not react to loss or terrible events seen by you that have happened to other people make perfect sense. I'm wondering though, how you or someone like you would face any illness or injury that goes beyond mere inconvenience up to and including the possible loss of your life. In what ways would your experiences of these things be like or unlike what you describe above?
It’s fascinating to hear about having essentially no emotion. I wonder: does this affect humor? Can you find anything funny? Second question: what about ambition? I’m guessing status games would be of very little interest. I would also guess that boredom plus lack of fear could lead down some dangerous paths. It’s almost as if you would need to be cognitively alert, as you seem to be, to avoid trouble. This is where emotions help those of us that have them. At times, something just feels “off.” You can ignore it and proceed, which is why there is so much out there about listening to your gut. Is there a psychopathic equivalent of the gut check, or is everything purely a cognitive evaluation of the circumstances?
Most people will experience negative emotions in the situations you described. But at the same time, neurotypicals won't have an emotional response *every* time, say, they die in a video game or someone insults them. Only some of the time, they will feel frustration, disappointment, anger, or even relief (in the case of the video game).
Trying to think about why that is, the times I felt nothing towards something that might otherwise be negative, I did not actually have the preference you describe. E.g. I keep getting killed by a boss in a video game. But I'm enjoying this battle so much, that's not really an issue.
Desire and emotion seem to always go hand-in-hand with neurotypicals (I have ADHD but I assume this will work the same way for neurotypicals, anyway).
I think I can construct a scenario in which I feel nothing in response to a failing, though. Say, I am given a task. I must flip a coin until it lands heads up. I'd rather it land hands up the first time I flip it, but if it is tails, I have no emotional response to this. (this stops working as the number of flips increase and I start feeling impatient annoyance).
Now thinking about that, I wonder. Can a psychopath truly have desires without emotions backing them? Or would it be more accurate to call these "intentions" or "goals" than desires? I know you still feel dopamine rush, so not sure. I once read that psychopaths act on weak impulses because they have even weaker inhibitions. I can imagine then, that psychopaths may often just go through the motions, doing things that they don't think are important, and in fact barely put any thought into at all. This sound right?
Hi, I’m brand new to your website, so forgive me if I ask questions that you may have already covered elsewhere. I’m curious about folks with certain antisocial personality disorders who abuse alcohol and/or other drugs. I could be totally off base on all this but I’m super curious on your thoughts. I’ve heard that with any disorder, people can present on a spectrum… do you find this to be the case with psychopathy and sociopathy? Would this explain why some people with any of the so-called “dark triad” traits (Psychopath, Sociopath, Narcissist) who might not be on the more significant end of the spectrum, could potentially fall into substance abuse? And, if so, wouldn’t this be a certain way for those folks to deal with loss, life upsets, negative events, inability or failure to get their way etc? I’ve heard intelligence can play a huge factor as well.
I dated a man of whom I’m fairly certain fell somewhere within that triad (most likely socio or psychopath) but I feel like he had some awareness of his behavior and that it somewhat tortured him. And he drank. A lot. He also had a niece who was murdered… i had already started to suspect him of not being an an NT by then… he drank extremely heavy after this happened and I had the feeling that the alcohol helped him “perform” the right emotions that were expected of him. But I could be wrong.
Also, I totally understand if one were to say, “well if he was truly a socio- or psychopath, even if he had awareness of his behaviors, it wouldn’t phase him at all…. But that’s where I wonder if people can be on a spectrum... and wouldn’t alcohol and drugs be a great way to escape? What do you think?
I also completely understand that I am not a psychiatrist and cannot diagnose him… my theory is based on speculation… which is based on a lot of truly odd and often shocking or even frightening behavior.
He will forever remain a complete mystery to me…. I was addicted to him (mainly because of the sex… because it was dangerous and thrilling… he liked to choke me. And I always had a feeling he was always holding himself back. I’m glad he broke up with me because I couldn’t get away).
Anyhow, sorry, I digressed…. Thoughts on the spectrum and those who abuse sunbatances?
Jun 3, 2022·edited Jun 3, 2022Liked by Athena Walker
I agree with the other commentator, your phenomenological descriptions are on point.
The analogies are good, I think.
If my friends cancelled a meeting or the series I enjoyed stopped I think I would have a single thought that it sucked and feel annoyed for a second and then stop caring. That is considering if I wanted to meet them or watch it at the moment. Many series I watch I forget about when they stop releasing and then remember about them 1000 years later when I want to watch them specifically. So I can apply the later to all situations that you have mentioned. Most of the time my experiences is like that.
I don’t think I can feel that about a person I really like though. If someone I really like dies, I will care, I will be sad and/or annoyed occasionally for a while. I have never grieved and missed a dead person though. I seem to handle a death of a close person differently from most people. I can think about them occasionally, feel sad or annoyed that they aren’t there anymore when I notice that I could have done something with them, but they are never my primary thought. I can think about them then do things I will normally do. I won’t have a desire to go to funerals too.
I think you are a little of the mark in your observations about how people code smells. I am a hardcore coffee drinker, I drink it many times a day in similar circumstances and I don’t associate the smell with anything. When I smell coffee, I think coffee. It doesn’t have any emotional associations either. I am not sure, but I think it is the norm for many people.
I’d be interested in hearing how you discovered and processed your difference from other people. Did you consciously adopt acting skills to fit in? If so, what made you believe ‘the mask’ was necessary or desirable? I can only think it was very puzzling at first. What was it like figuring this out? I can only think in your world, normals must seem like the crazy ones.
Thank you for writing this, grasping at the mist or not, it's good to read whatever there is to tell. Holy moly, that's such a different way of being, though as a long term reader I am not surprised.
Meanwhile I have a fine distinction to try to make sense of, that of an adjustment being 'unwelcome and yet not unpleasant'. What does that even mean? Unwelcome means unpleasant, however mildly. I am drawn back to my old example of second choice of dessert. Technically a bummer, but so low on the scale it barely registers.
Interestingly, both the cancelled dinner and the cancelled favourite TV show examples are things I can see both ways. Both of these COULD be upsetting, depending, but looking back to my own real life examples, there were of course some times that because of circumstances, they actually weren't, the sense of regret lasted seconds. So these might not be such bad comparisons after all.
Or maybe: Dang, the moths ate my favourite overcoat. That's a nuisance, it will be hard to find another in that style, and an unwanted expense, and I wanted to wear it next week, and it looks great with my outfits. Bummer, but oh well, these things happen. Compared to, oh no, the moths ate my 20 year old classic overcoat, and that was the first complex garment I made to my own design, and it was modelled on the style of X, and I got such a good deal on the fabric at that store, my first time buying real cashmere, and I had saved up for it in my crappy job, and then my friend helped me draft the pattern and I learned so much about tailoring, and I wore it to that event and Y really fancied me and I was so excited by that, and I felt so elegant for once, and so on. NTs have had experiences in both categories, both with and without emotional coding in the memories, so I will just think of yours as always being the former. We put a lot of effort into trying to recast the latter as the former, 'don't sweat the small stuff', and it's very do-able. But that still leaves all the grief and fear and existential angst to be endured.
It's a crazy thing though, many neurotypicals are solution oriented people too, quite practical and sensible. That doesn't mean that they won't find themselves frozen or seemingly unable to put those solutions into action, as you have seen. You may look on and be mystified why this is so, when it's simple, and here are the steps, just do xyz. I draw an analogy that applies among neurotypicals. When we are are young and foolish, everyone has the answers to everyone else's problems. They seem straightforward, but eventually you realise there is often much more to it, details and explanations and mitigating factors that people don't care to share with you, and so eventually you realise that the usefulness of your advice can be limited and there's no point being exasperated about other people somehow not solving their 'simple' problems. In the case of your advice, it may well be great, and it could indeed solve the problem, but if you are advising a neurotypical there will likely be so many other factors and impediments and heaven knows what going on in there that would make no sense to you and which they may not even be conscious of themselves. It goes beyond just them being hampered by unhelpful emotions, it's a whole other landscape, and no, they may not just be being perverse or cowardly! Anyway, I guess you have found this out, I'm not saying anything revolutionary here.
I think people are aware of how much they code smells and how they can take them back in time and place and their emotional impact. Proust's madeleine put that into the popular imagination. Gasoline and blood might be a bit harder to sell!
Anyway, this has been a waffley comment. Take it as a sign of my enjoyment.
Athena, could the immediate realisation of losing a family member be compared with playing video game for hours, reaching almost to the end goal only for the game to end abruptly? Therefore being disappointed or surprised for a short period?
Changing the sentence to: "That I do in fact, experience these things, and either don’t want to admit it, or I am dissociate from the emotions." doesn't read properly
You are correct - how about I am dissociated from the emotions. I think you knew that. I make a mistake.
Athena, what do you think works against a psychopath? I read a "machiavellian" state that the best thing is to make you want what they want...
I have seen this happen I believe. If someone by any chance managed to deceive a psychopath into thinking to be someone they're not then since they're "in the circle" it is easy to control this since you're seen with "good eyes".
I need to get myself ready. I wish I could have the same mental capabilities but I'm heavily held back.
I always find your posts so interesting because you describe so well your experiences and how they relate to your understanding of neurotypical experiences. One thought I had is it seems the foundation others build their life on for stability also makes them vulnerable to collapse if those pieces are removed (like a Jenga). However perhaps for you, your sense of stability is central to your core being, and not on external constructs, so you're much more versatile to changes in the environment.
I accept everything you say about emotional non-bonding,lack of chemical attachment, etc. In that context your statements about how you do not react to loss or terrible events seen by you that have happened to other people make perfect sense. I'm wondering though, how you or someone like you would face any illness or injury that goes beyond mere inconvenience up to and including the possible loss of your life. In what ways would your experiences of these things be like or unlike what you describe above?
It’s fascinating to hear about having essentially no emotion. I wonder: does this affect humor? Can you find anything funny? Second question: what about ambition? I’m guessing status games would be of very little interest. I would also guess that boredom plus lack of fear could lead down some dangerous paths. It’s almost as if you would need to be cognitively alert, as you seem to be, to avoid trouble. This is where emotions help those of us that have them. At times, something just feels “off.” You can ignore it and proceed, which is why there is so much out there about listening to your gut. Is there a psychopathic equivalent of the gut check, or is everything purely a cognitive evaluation of the circumstances?
Most people will experience negative emotions in the situations you described. But at the same time, neurotypicals won't have an emotional response *every* time, say, they die in a video game or someone insults them. Only some of the time, they will feel frustration, disappointment, anger, or even relief (in the case of the video game).
Trying to think about why that is, the times I felt nothing towards something that might otherwise be negative, I did not actually have the preference you describe. E.g. I keep getting killed by a boss in a video game. But I'm enjoying this battle so much, that's not really an issue.
Desire and emotion seem to always go hand-in-hand with neurotypicals (I have ADHD but I assume this will work the same way for neurotypicals, anyway).
I think I can construct a scenario in which I feel nothing in response to a failing, though. Say, I am given a task. I must flip a coin until it lands heads up. I'd rather it land hands up the first time I flip it, but if it is tails, I have no emotional response to this. (this stops working as the number of flips increase and I start feeling impatient annoyance).
Now thinking about that, I wonder. Can a psychopath truly have desires without emotions backing them? Or would it be more accurate to call these "intentions" or "goals" than desires? I know you still feel dopamine rush, so not sure. I once read that psychopaths act on weak impulses because they have even weaker inhibitions. I can imagine then, that psychopaths may often just go through the motions, doing things that they don't think are important, and in fact barely put any thought into at all. This sound right?
Hi, I’m brand new to your website, so forgive me if I ask questions that you may have already covered elsewhere. I’m curious about folks with certain antisocial personality disorders who abuse alcohol and/or other drugs. I could be totally off base on all this but I’m super curious on your thoughts. I’ve heard that with any disorder, people can present on a spectrum… do you find this to be the case with psychopathy and sociopathy? Would this explain why some people with any of the so-called “dark triad” traits (Psychopath, Sociopath, Narcissist) who might not be on the more significant end of the spectrum, could potentially fall into substance abuse? And, if so, wouldn’t this be a certain way for those folks to deal with loss, life upsets, negative events, inability or failure to get their way etc? I’ve heard intelligence can play a huge factor as well.
I dated a man of whom I’m fairly certain fell somewhere within that triad (most likely socio or psychopath) but I feel like he had some awareness of his behavior and that it somewhat tortured him. And he drank. A lot. He also had a niece who was murdered… i had already started to suspect him of not being an an NT by then… he drank extremely heavy after this happened and I had the feeling that the alcohol helped him “perform” the right emotions that were expected of him. But I could be wrong.
Also, I totally understand if one were to say, “well if he was truly a socio- or psychopath, even if he had awareness of his behaviors, it wouldn’t phase him at all…. But that’s where I wonder if people can be on a spectrum... and wouldn’t alcohol and drugs be a great way to escape? What do you think?
I also completely understand that I am not a psychiatrist and cannot diagnose him… my theory is based on speculation… which is based on a lot of truly odd and often shocking or even frightening behavior.
He will forever remain a complete mystery to me…. I was addicted to him (mainly because of the sex… because it was dangerous and thrilling… he liked to choke me. And I always had a feeling he was always holding himself back. I’m glad he broke up with me because I couldn’t get away).
Anyhow, sorry, I digressed…. Thoughts on the spectrum and those who abuse sunbatances?
I agree with the other commentator, your phenomenological descriptions are on point.
The analogies are good, I think.
If my friends cancelled a meeting or the series I enjoyed stopped I think I would have a single thought that it sucked and feel annoyed for a second and then stop caring. That is considering if I wanted to meet them or watch it at the moment. Many series I watch I forget about when they stop releasing and then remember about them 1000 years later when I want to watch them specifically. So I can apply the later to all situations that you have mentioned. Most of the time my experiences is like that.
I don’t think I can feel that about a person I really like though. If someone I really like dies, I will care, I will be sad and/or annoyed occasionally for a while. I have never grieved and missed a dead person though. I seem to handle a death of a close person differently from most people. I can think about them occasionally, feel sad or annoyed that they aren’t there anymore when I notice that I could have done something with them, but they are never my primary thought. I can think about them then do things I will normally do. I won’t have a desire to go to funerals too.
I think you are a little of the mark in your observations about how people code smells. I am a hardcore coffee drinker, I drink it many times a day in similar circumstances and I don’t associate the smell with anything. When I smell coffee, I think coffee. It doesn’t have any emotional associations either. I am not sure, but I think it is the norm for many people.
I’d be interested in hearing how you discovered and processed your difference from other people. Did you consciously adopt acting skills to fit in? If so, what made you believe ‘the mask’ was necessary or desirable? I can only think it was very puzzling at first. What was it like figuring this out? I can only think in your world, normals must seem like the crazy ones.
Thank you for writing this, grasping at the mist or not, it's good to read whatever there is to tell. Holy moly, that's such a different way of being, though as a long term reader I am not surprised.
Meanwhile I have a fine distinction to try to make sense of, that of an adjustment being 'unwelcome and yet not unpleasant'. What does that even mean? Unwelcome means unpleasant, however mildly. I am drawn back to my old example of second choice of dessert. Technically a bummer, but so low on the scale it barely registers.
Interestingly, both the cancelled dinner and the cancelled favourite TV show examples are things I can see both ways. Both of these COULD be upsetting, depending, but looking back to my own real life examples, there were of course some times that because of circumstances, they actually weren't, the sense of regret lasted seconds. So these might not be such bad comparisons after all.
Or maybe: Dang, the moths ate my favourite overcoat. That's a nuisance, it will be hard to find another in that style, and an unwanted expense, and I wanted to wear it next week, and it looks great with my outfits. Bummer, but oh well, these things happen. Compared to, oh no, the moths ate my 20 year old classic overcoat, and that was the first complex garment I made to my own design, and it was modelled on the style of X, and I got such a good deal on the fabric at that store, my first time buying real cashmere, and I had saved up for it in my crappy job, and then my friend helped me draft the pattern and I learned so much about tailoring, and I wore it to that event and Y really fancied me and I was so excited by that, and I felt so elegant for once, and so on. NTs have had experiences in both categories, both with and without emotional coding in the memories, so I will just think of yours as always being the former. We put a lot of effort into trying to recast the latter as the former, 'don't sweat the small stuff', and it's very do-able. But that still leaves all the grief and fear and existential angst to be endured.
It's a crazy thing though, many neurotypicals are solution oriented people too, quite practical and sensible. That doesn't mean that they won't find themselves frozen or seemingly unable to put those solutions into action, as you have seen. You may look on and be mystified why this is so, when it's simple, and here are the steps, just do xyz. I draw an analogy that applies among neurotypicals. When we are are young and foolish, everyone has the answers to everyone else's problems. They seem straightforward, but eventually you realise there is often much more to it, details and explanations and mitigating factors that people don't care to share with you, and so eventually you realise that the usefulness of your advice can be limited and there's no point being exasperated about other people somehow not solving their 'simple' problems. In the case of your advice, it may well be great, and it could indeed solve the problem, but if you are advising a neurotypical there will likely be so many other factors and impediments and heaven knows what going on in there that would make no sense to you and which they may not even be conscious of themselves. It goes beyond just them being hampered by unhelpful emotions, it's a whole other landscape, and no, they may not just be being perverse or cowardly! Anyway, I guess you have found this out, I'm not saying anything revolutionary here.
I think people are aware of how much they code smells and how they can take them back in time and place and their emotional impact. Proust's madeleine put that into the popular imagination. Gasoline and blood might be a bit harder to sell!
Anyway, this has been a waffley comment. Take it as a sign of my enjoyment.
Athena, could the immediate realisation of losing a family member be compared with playing video game for hours, reaching almost to the end goal only for the game to end abruptly? Therefore being disappointed or surprised for a short period?
Excellent work and perhaps the best I have read of your work. Congratulations on a fine writing.
I got alot out of it and learned alot. Thanks!
New here, it's an interesting perspective to see, do you have any type of feelings about death if there's no fear of it?
Changing the sentence to: "That I do in fact, experience these things, and either don’t want to admit it, or I am dissociate from the emotions." doesn't read properly
You are correct - how about I am dissociated from the emotions. I think you knew that. I make a mistake.
“ That I do in fact, experience these things, and either don’t want to admit it, or I am disassociating from the emotions.” should be dissociate.
Athena, what do you think works against a psychopath? I read a "machiavellian" state that the best thing is to make you want what they want...
I have seen this happen I believe. If someone by any chance managed to deceive a psychopath into thinking to be someone they're not then since they're "in the circle" it is easy to control this since you're seen with "good eyes".
I need to get myself ready. I wish I could have the same mental capabilities but I'm heavily held back.
Emotional Empathy and thinking psychopathy.
How about positive experiences, for instance if you like the flavor of coffee, do you have an emotional component to smelling it again unexpectedly?