It does seem to be the case. why these two things are so often conflated, I will never know. Limitations in the understanding of the lack of emotional empathy is my guess, but emotional empathy is lacking in all humans. It is assumed to be present, not actually so. It is what is considered, not what is truthful. People assume that everyone feels as they do, therefore emotional empathy is assumed. Instead, it is projection, not reality. They think they are empathetic but in reality they are simply seeing themselves in another's skin.
I do agree that emotional empathy is not quite what most people believe it to be - people often talk about it as if it's 'feeling other people's emotions', and in recent decades, since the advent of brain scans, you hear talk of 'mirror neurons' firing when people are feeling emotional empathy, which does kind of imply that our brains have the ability to literally copy an emotion that someone else is feeling, and artificially re-create it in our own brain, so that we literally feel the other person's feelings.
But I think that's quite a major misrepresentation of what's actually happening - I think what's really happening is that witnessing the other person's emotion is triggering memories in us, of events that created the same or similar emotions in ourselves in the past, and since those memories are coded with that emotion, we are re-experiencing the emotion as a result of recalling the memories. But crucially, it's essentially our own emotion that we're feeling, not the other person's.
I think that's one of the reasons why levels of empathy vary so much in NTs, from person to person, and from scenario to scenario - because the similarity between what the person empathising is feeling, and what the person they're empathising with is feeling, varies greatly, as does the similarity between the events that triggered the emotion in the two people. It might be that both the emotion and the event are almost identical in both people (I see someone upset and sad that their dog just died, it reminds me of how sad I was when my dog died last year) - so empathy levels are high. Or it could be that the emotion is the same/similar but the event slightly different (I see someone upset and sad that their dog just died, I've never lost a pet, but I was really sad when I had to put my dog in kennels for 6 weeks last year) - so empathy levels are mid-range. Or it could be that the events are totally different but I can still relate to the emotion (I see someone upset and sad that their dog just died, I've never had a pet, but I was really sad when I didn't get that dream job I applied for last year, so I can still relate to the feeling of sadness) - so empathy levels are lower.
But I'm not sure that any of this means that emotional empathy is an illusion, or doesn't really exist, in NTs. It just means that the mechanism of how it works is not quite what many people think, and not what it seems like subjectively (because in the moment it really does feel like you're feeling the other person's emotion, in my opinion - it takes alot of reflection and self awareness to realise you're actually feeling your own emotions triggered by witnessing a similar emotion in someone else).
But regardless of the mechanism through which it works, I think it's still true that emotional empathy does play an important role in helping us notice and understand other people's emotions, and motivating us to try and help or give emotional support. Having said all that, you are a very good advert for the strengths and advantages of cognitive empathy Athena, emotional empathy is not the be all and end all!
Just my opinion but I think people see one or two symptoms that are similar and then decide that all conditions that have that are correlated somehow.
Like someone insisting somebody who is Bisexual is actually gay because both are attracted to the same sex. They fixate on what’s similar between the two while conveniently ignoring everything that’s *different*.
“Oh, you lack empathy for other people and are seen as superficially charming? Psychopath. Or narcissist. Same thing lol.”
These people watched too many Hollywood crime thrillers.
I smiled every time I read how you wrote how real psychopaths are especially the solitude part and about if the person your in a relationship with goes to their family or leaves for a few days ect.
I'm surprised to see the way I am is perfectly normal (for someone with psychopathy). I have never experienced anyone like me before and the things I do as well as the way I live my life until I read about how you are.
Thanks Athena for this brutal takedown. I can only imagine the poor results of the Center's clients!
I know I am not a psychopath yet I share so much with you in I relate to the world. (Except of the exs and former lovers: "Yes I remember you!! Come on in!!") LOL
Please continue your powerful and valuable posts. Each one is a treasure and helps so much.
2 REVELATIONS in one post. I definitely want to know more about the characterization of Taylor Swift, but the article you commented on was mind-blowing. I am glad my emotions are muted lest I would need major plastic surgery to remove my smile.
I had to deal with abusers and their victims for a while in my temporary capacity as manager of an alcoholism treatment facility while I was there to make sure all the documentation and policy was in place to maintain funding. Since the clients were all alcoholics, there is only a faint chance that any numbered among psychopaths. (Psychopaths could not develop the self-loathing that drives the psychological dependence, but could develop the liver enzyme damage through years of drinking wherein there is a physical dependence with dangerous withdrawal.)
But yes, the propaganda of the Quintal Clinic describes abusive/controlling and or narcissistic behavior whether alcohol is part of the social mix or not. But the term "emotional psychopath" is a revelation of OXYMORON strength and CAT 5 force...
On a side issue, I want to get a list of believers of that Clinic, and of the psychopathy of Taylor Swift so I can estimate how many ice worms I need to collect and distill oil from to sell as a panacea, because that would be my market... Mesenchytraeus solifugus, the distant relative of the earthworm gets more active as the temperature drops, so the essential oils from distilling their tiny bodies should work for the paradoxical mental dysfunctions of people who believe that clinic or the accusers of Taylor Swift right?, right? And I am sure I know some frontline doctors who would happily sell nostrums prepared from the extractions.
Of all those controlled co-dependents, I believe one managed a clean break without assistance. She was obedient, looking at the floor because hubby would not let her raise her eyes, and staying at home with no friends. However, things changed when hubby slapped her infant son. She broke every single one of his golf clubs on his body and then went to the kitchen for her pots and pans. The police asked her why she did that and she reported the infant abuse, and then they removed her handcuffs. Out of more than 300 known encounters of abuse, the program helped 3. But then the program did not know about emotional psychopaths. ;-}
I have only read the Taylor Swift article in a cursory manner, but so far the claims are ridiculous. I cannot see how any of the conclusions reached in the article could be even considered when the author has no familiarity with Ms. Swift in the first place. It is conclusions drawn on assumptions, and none of them make sense.
It's almost kind of impressive that of all the random words they could have thrown in front of the word psychopath, they managed to pick the only one that makes the whole thing a contradiction in terms. I almost want to congratulate them for coming up with such a ridiculous term, and apparently not having the faintest idea how ridiculous it is...
...I applaud your patience, Athena, and the time you take to invest and explain.
Some people are just common garden-variety jerks. "Crappy people" as you call them.
They might have diminished capacity to this and that (comparative to some others)-but they're still capable, it just takes willingness to learn, or situation when they learn, willingness or not.
They can mature too, and well, stop being jerks. I know such people.
Might be hard-well, every attempt at bettering oneself might be hard. others have different things to work on.
But not misplacing normal words with trendy misused diagnoses of course won't make for a catchy "read and come so we'll help you".
Who ever wrote that article is severely misinformed or trying to spread disinformation and is doing a horrible job at it not to mention they’re an idiot.
I could probably guess the motive behind the article but you probably already know.
The author is describing a narcissist or a sociopath with narcissistic traits.
If they would take their emotions out of the equation they could figure it out. But neurotypicals are emotional beings.
I believe the article is aimed at why Donald Trump is the way he is.
That’s easy, he was fucked up from childhood and has a reading & writing level of a nine yr old & I question the onset of dementia in the mix.
But No he must be a psychopath 🥱
No he’s got feelings and it’s easy to trigger him especially on social media. If he was a psychopath perhaps he wouldn’t want to gaslight people that he will be a dictator if he wins 2024 election.
Well he won’t win, just like he lost in 2020. And he likes to control the R side of the house and just be a pain in the ass.
Conviction and prison are inevitable for him & when I do see him on tv I just think he’s an idiot and tells on himself. Wow what a winner 👎🏻 but more of a whiner which gets annoying.
I get what you’re saying about you preferring a life of solitude.
I get the cognitive concept of knowing empathy but not feeling it.
Psychopathy is a brain variant where the amygdala is 18% smaller but is the part of the brain that regulates emotions.
A narcissist is a whole other breed of stupidity.
I’ve told you before that I grew up with a mother narcissist. I know what they are capable of. My father I’ve decided in my unprofessional opinion that along with a shitty childhood but functioned on what is right & what was wrong & the military academy actually gave him stability. He was a sociopath as unable to connect emotionally with me on a level after I graced into teenage hood and that’s where it stopped. He didn’t have the capacity to understand emotions except the ones that pissed him off when you broke the rules. He did very well as a decorated military man because as neurotypicals call balls of steal to do his job in whatever capacity they wanted him to but he only knew how to provide financial support to his wife & kids. He made it a point to tell you not to talk to him about emotional stuff.
Psychopathy I imagine would be very boring to many. They are born without the capacity to understand emotions and if they want to function in society they learn the rules. Some fuck up & end up in prison. Others like yourself have your interests and like to write about what psychopathy is and is not.
Even though I am a neurotypical I not shocked easily.
Once you learn someone’s pathology you can pretty much predict their next move.
This article reminds me of LinkedIn. Where you have a kind of system where the same or a different individual will repost the same of five articles. Some variation of 'How to get your boss to notice you at work' or something like that.
This is just another 'your abusive narcissist ex'. Either 'you did nothing wrong' or 'stop being so naive'. Except it uses the term psychopath rather than narcissist.
It seems as though as a society we are stuck in this giant holding pattern. Until someone really powerful has a reason to make a change in this area, (to be sure to inform/ educate other that psychopathy is not the hollywood movie version), it is unlikely it will change.
That widespread misconception of psychopathy is a regularly returning topic here - in Athenas texts and in the comment section. I also think it highly unlikely that it will change. And Athena herself gave the answer to why it will not change (in that advocacy-article, if I remember right):
1. Psychopaths do not have a lobby. No PR-department.
2. At the same time, although it is unfair that crappy individuals are labelled as psychopaths, it won't come to a psychopath's mind to start a great mission for educating society as to what psychopathy is and what it is not. Because psychopath just doesn't care enough. - However: Athena does in some way. She has made a lot of educational work. Here and on Quora (and don't know whereelse).
3. The NT-world needs the splitting up between the good, the normal (normative) and the pervert, dark. A big, big point why they need their scapegoats is for not having to feel feelings that are not allowed and therefore being transferred to the minorities (not only psychopaths). As if denying the own unloved traits and thoughts would be a solution. I think none of us reading and writing here belongs to that group. One has to be sufficiently unreflected to fall to this mechanism. And for that mechanism it totally doesn't matter if that goat is black or homosexual or narcissist or psychopath. As long as it can be pulled out of the NT-magic box with the raised index finger: 'beware of!'.
No, but, even those whom do have good advocacy, such as autism groups, have not seemed to have gotten very far. Even with all the charming content creators in that area they still say online they have basically the same problem as when they started.
I think things will only change when everything suddenly changes. Politically, we are in a situation where some individuals want things to remain the way they are because that's what corrupt forces want. Even if the entire society goes to hell they want their kickbacks or whatever it is.
But everytime they do something to really entrench this they reveal their hand. Such as lockdown, and energise people to move against them. The second something big busts through, then everything will have to change.
Essentially the doctor gave some generally good advice but spiced it up with a made up term with “psychopath “ in it which leads me to think that the doctor should not be trusted based on the advice they have given
I agree with most of this, but I actually think that the article advising people to seek out this doctor is a good thing.
If you take the psychopathy thing out of it, it is just advising people with abusive partners to talk to an expert on escaping and dealing with abuse.
The term may be damaging to the overall image of psychopaths, but other than that it is irrelevant what they call the abusers. People who read the article and see the listed ‘red flags’ in their own relationships probably WOULD benefit from help from a therapist.
I agree with that. People should not stand for being someone else's punching bag, emotionally or physically. It is great to call an abuser for what they are, but the need for a label beyond that tends to be misguided.
Could he be describing a Sociopath rather than a Psychopath? The description fits my abusive narcissist contractor who did a 3 1/2 year number against my house and family. In other words, somebody like that exists but he’s not a psychopath.
What they're describing sounds more like narcissism.
It does seem to be the case. why these two things are so often conflated, I will never know. Limitations in the understanding of the lack of emotional empathy is my guess, but emotional empathy is lacking in all humans. It is assumed to be present, not actually so. It is what is considered, not what is truthful. People assume that everyone feels as they do, therefore emotional empathy is assumed. Instead, it is projection, not reality. They think they are empathetic but in reality they are simply seeing themselves in another's skin.
I do agree that emotional empathy is not quite what most people believe it to be - people often talk about it as if it's 'feeling other people's emotions', and in recent decades, since the advent of brain scans, you hear talk of 'mirror neurons' firing when people are feeling emotional empathy, which does kind of imply that our brains have the ability to literally copy an emotion that someone else is feeling, and artificially re-create it in our own brain, so that we literally feel the other person's feelings.
But I think that's quite a major misrepresentation of what's actually happening - I think what's really happening is that witnessing the other person's emotion is triggering memories in us, of events that created the same or similar emotions in ourselves in the past, and since those memories are coded with that emotion, we are re-experiencing the emotion as a result of recalling the memories. But crucially, it's essentially our own emotion that we're feeling, not the other person's.
I think that's one of the reasons why levels of empathy vary so much in NTs, from person to person, and from scenario to scenario - because the similarity between what the person empathising is feeling, and what the person they're empathising with is feeling, varies greatly, as does the similarity between the events that triggered the emotion in the two people. It might be that both the emotion and the event are almost identical in both people (I see someone upset and sad that their dog just died, it reminds me of how sad I was when my dog died last year) - so empathy levels are high. Or it could be that the emotion is the same/similar but the event slightly different (I see someone upset and sad that their dog just died, I've never lost a pet, but I was really sad when I had to put my dog in kennels for 6 weeks last year) - so empathy levels are mid-range. Or it could be that the events are totally different but I can still relate to the emotion (I see someone upset and sad that their dog just died, I've never had a pet, but I was really sad when I didn't get that dream job I applied for last year, so I can still relate to the feeling of sadness) - so empathy levels are lower.
But I'm not sure that any of this means that emotional empathy is an illusion, or doesn't really exist, in NTs. It just means that the mechanism of how it works is not quite what many people think, and not what it seems like subjectively (because in the moment it really does feel like you're feeling the other person's emotion, in my opinion - it takes alot of reflection and self awareness to realise you're actually feeling your own emotions triggered by witnessing a similar emotion in someone else).
But regardless of the mechanism through which it works, I think it's still true that emotional empathy does play an important role in helping us notice and understand other people's emotions, and motivating us to try and help or give emotional support. Having said all that, you are a very good advert for the strengths and advantages of cognitive empathy Athena, emotional empathy is not the be all and end all!
Just my opinion but I think people see one or two symptoms that are similar and then decide that all conditions that have that are correlated somehow.
Like someone insisting somebody who is Bisexual is actually gay because both are attracted to the same sex. They fixate on what’s similar between the two while conveniently ignoring everything that’s *different*.
“Oh, you lack empathy for other people and are seen as superficially charming? Psychopath. Or narcissist. Same thing lol.”
These people watched too many Hollywood crime thrillers.
Yes, I agree
I was just going to write that myself! Totally agree that many characteristics they describe appear to be part of narcissism.
I smiled every time I read how you wrote how real psychopaths are especially the solitude part and about if the person your in a relationship with goes to their family or leaves for a few days ect.
I'm surprised to see the way I am is perfectly normal (for someone with psychopathy). I have never experienced anyone like me before and the things I do as well as the way I live my life until I read about how you are.
Thanks Athena for this brutal takedown. I can only imagine the poor results of the Center's clients!
I know I am not a psychopath yet I share so much with you in I relate to the world. (Except of the exs and former lovers: "Yes I remember you!! Come on in!!") LOL
Please continue your powerful and valuable posts. Each one is a treasure and helps so much.
2 REVELATIONS in one post. I definitely want to know more about the characterization of Taylor Swift, but the article you commented on was mind-blowing. I am glad my emotions are muted lest I would need major plastic surgery to remove my smile.
I had to deal with abusers and their victims for a while in my temporary capacity as manager of an alcoholism treatment facility while I was there to make sure all the documentation and policy was in place to maintain funding. Since the clients were all alcoholics, there is only a faint chance that any numbered among psychopaths. (Psychopaths could not develop the self-loathing that drives the psychological dependence, but could develop the liver enzyme damage through years of drinking wherein there is a physical dependence with dangerous withdrawal.)
But yes, the propaganda of the Quintal Clinic describes abusive/controlling and or narcissistic behavior whether alcohol is part of the social mix or not. But the term "emotional psychopath" is a revelation of OXYMORON strength and CAT 5 force...
On a side issue, I want to get a list of believers of that Clinic, and of the psychopathy of Taylor Swift so I can estimate how many ice worms I need to collect and distill oil from to sell as a panacea, because that would be my market... Mesenchytraeus solifugus, the distant relative of the earthworm gets more active as the temperature drops, so the essential oils from distilling their tiny bodies should work for the paradoxical mental dysfunctions of people who believe that clinic or the accusers of Taylor Swift right?, right? And I am sure I know some frontline doctors who would happily sell nostrums prepared from the extractions.
Of all those controlled co-dependents, I believe one managed a clean break without assistance. She was obedient, looking at the floor because hubby would not let her raise her eyes, and staying at home with no friends. However, things changed when hubby slapped her infant son. She broke every single one of his golf clubs on his body and then went to the kitchen for her pots and pans. The police asked her why she did that and she reported the infant abuse, and then they removed her handcuffs. Out of more than 300 known encounters of abuse, the program helped 3. But then the program did not know about emotional psychopaths. ;-}
Masterful work, as always, Athena.
I have only read the Taylor Swift article in a cursory manner, but so far the claims are ridiculous. I cannot see how any of the conclusions reached in the article could be even considered when the author has no familiarity with Ms. Swift in the first place. It is conclusions drawn on assumptions, and none of them make sense.
Athena, I would like for you to cover the article that claims Taylor Swift is a psychopath.
All right, I will do so
It's almost kind of impressive that of all the random words they could have thrown in front of the word psychopath, they managed to pick the only one that makes the whole thing a contradiction in terms. I almost want to congratulate them for coming up with such a ridiculous term, and apparently not having the faintest idea how ridiculous it is...
Indeed, I agree
...I applaud your patience, Athena, and the time you take to invest and explain.
Some people are just common garden-variety jerks. "Crappy people" as you call them.
They might have diminished capacity to this and that (comparative to some others)-but they're still capable, it just takes willingness to learn, or situation when they learn, willingness or not.
They can mature too, and well, stop being jerks. I know such people.
Might be hard-well, every attempt at bettering oneself might be hard. others have different things to work on.
But not misplacing normal words with trendy misused diagnoses of course won't make for a catchy "read and come so we'll help you".
Who ever wrote that article is severely misinformed or trying to spread disinformation and is doing a horrible job at it not to mention they’re an idiot.
I could probably guess the motive behind the article but you probably already know.
The author is describing a narcissist or a sociopath with narcissistic traits.
If they would take their emotions out of the equation they could figure it out. But neurotypicals are emotional beings.
I believe the article is aimed at why Donald Trump is the way he is.
That’s easy, he was fucked up from childhood and has a reading & writing level of a nine yr old & I question the onset of dementia in the mix.
But No he must be a psychopath 🥱
No he’s got feelings and it’s easy to trigger him especially on social media. If he was a psychopath perhaps he wouldn’t want to gaslight people that he will be a dictator if he wins 2024 election.
Well he won’t win, just like he lost in 2020. And he likes to control the R side of the house and just be a pain in the ass.
Conviction and prison are inevitable for him & when I do see him on tv I just think he’s an idiot and tells on himself. Wow what a winner 👎🏻 but more of a whiner which gets annoying.
I get what you’re saying about you preferring a life of solitude.
I get the cognitive concept of knowing empathy but not feeling it.
Psychopathy is a brain variant where the amygdala is 18% smaller but is the part of the brain that regulates emotions.
A narcissist is a whole other breed of stupidity.
I’ve told you before that I grew up with a mother narcissist. I know what they are capable of. My father I’ve decided in my unprofessional opinion that along with a shitty childhood but functioned on what is right & what was wrong & the military academy actually gave him stability. He was a sociopath as unable to connect emotionally with me on a level after I graced into teenage hood and that’s where it stopped. He didn’t have the capacity to understand emotions except the ones that pissed him off when you broke the rules. He did very well as a decorated military man because as neurotypicals call balls of steal to do his job in whatever capacity they wanted him to but he only knew how to provide financial support to his wife & kids. He made it a point to tell you not to talk to him about emotional stuff.
Psychopathy I imagine would be very boring to many. They are born without the capacity to understand emotions and if they want to function in society they learn the rules. Some fuck up & end up in prison. Others like yourself have your interests and like to write about what psychopathy is and is not.
Even though I am a neurotypical I not shocked easily.
Once you learn someone’s pathology you can pretty much predict their next move.
Thanks
Good Read👍🏻
This article reminds me of LinkedIn. Where you have a kind of system where the same or a different individual will repost the same of five articles. Some variation of 'How to get your boss to notice you at work' or something like that.
This is just another 'your abusive narcissist ex'. Either 'you did nothing wrong' or 'stop being so naive'. Except it uses the term psychopath rather than narcissist.
It seems as though as a society we are stuck in this giant holding pattern. Until someone really powerful has a reason to make a change in this area, (to be sure to inform/ educate other that psychopathy is not the hollywood movie version), it is unlikely it will change.
That widespread misconception of psychopathy is a regularly returning topic here - in Athenas texts and in the comment section. I also think it highly unlikely that it will change. And Athena herself gave the answer to why it will not change (in that advocacy-article, if I remember right):
1. Psychopaths do not have a lobby. No PR-department.
2. At the same time, although it is unfair that crappy individuals are labelled as psychopaths, it won't come to a psychopath's mind to start a great mission for educating society as to what psychopathy is and what it is not. Because psychopath just doesn't care enough. - However: Athena does in some way. She has made a lot of educational work. Here and on Quora (and don't know whereelse).
3. The NT-world needs the splitting up between the good, the normal (normative) and the pervert, dark. A big, big point why they need their scapegoats is for not having to feel feelings that are not allowed and therefore being transferred to the minorities (not only psychopaths). As if denying the own unloved traits and thoughts would be a solution. I think none of us reading and writing here belongs to that group. One has to be sufficiently unreflected to fall to this mechanism. And for that mechanism it totally doesn't matter if that goat is black or homosexual or narcissist or psychopath. As long as it can be pulled out of the NT-magic box with the raised index finger: 'beware of!'.
No, but, even those whom do have good advocacy, such as autism groups, have not seemed to have gotten very far. Even with all the charming content creators in that area they still say online they have basically the same problem as when they started.
I think things will only change when everything suddenly changes. Politically, we are in a situation where some individuals want things to remain the way they are because that's what corrupt forces want. Even if the entire society goes to hell they want their kickbacks or whatever it is.
But everytime they do something to really entrench this they reveal their hand. Such as lockdown, and energise people to move against them. The second something big busts through, then everything will have to change.
Essentially the doctor gave some generally good advice but spiced it up with a made up term with “psychopath “ in it which leads me to think that the doctor should not be trusted based on the advice they have given
I agree with most of this, but I actually think that the article advising people to seek out this doctor is a good thing.
If you take the psychopathy thing out of it, it is just advising people with abusive partners to talk to an expert on escaping and dealing with abuse.
The term may be damaging to the overall image of psychopaths, but other than that it is irrelevant what they call the abusers. People who read the article and see the listed ‘red flags’ in their own relationships probably WOULD benefit from help from a therapist.
I agree with that. People should not stand for being someone else's punching bag, emotionally or physically. It is great to call an abuser for what they are, but the need for a label beyond that tends to be misguided.
Could he be describing a Sociopath rather than a Psychopath? The description fits my abusive narcissist contractor who did a 3 1/2 year number against my house and family. In other words, somebody like that exists but he’s not a psychopath.
I think he's just describing a dick with obfuscatory and stupid language.
Good post sister
Thank you, James