I think you were smart to get it done. I would recommend anyone with the means, to find out, as much as possible, how their mind/brain works. Life is difficult. Knowing why you act/think in certain ways can help you navigate life to the best of your ability. Not everyone is brave enough to delve deep and accept themselves, both strengths and weaknesses. It takes even more to address them. You have done all of this, and continue to do so. We all should, neurotypical or not. I wouldn’t downplay it, or advise people not to follow this path, if then can. Improve yourself, improve the world.
Getting a diagnosis can be helpful if good science is actually being done on the relevant condition. From what I've read in your writings, Athena, it sounds like a little bit of good science is being done on psychopathy, but the weight of the poor science, social bias, and idiocy is not in that camp.
I've been having that experience in reading on autism too. I spent a couple years post-diagnosis reading, making a few contacts with researchers, etc. The only helpful - and I'd say openminded - contacts have been pretty much been other autistic people, especially women for the issues that differ somewhat based upon sex.
Autism doesn't generally have the "serial killer" connotation in the public mind, though there is a bit of that in the media at least, and some folks lump everything "abnormal" together anyway. There is a strong "only 8-year-old white boys have it" assumption that's connected to a 30-year-old chicken-and-egg problem with scientists assuming false stuff and using terribly selected populations that confirm their bad theories. Plus probably some ego in some of the most "expert" scientists that won't let them repudiate their former theories. So young scientists keep quoting it and studying it. There is tons of money involved in forcing young autistics to act more "normal" so their parents feel less guilt, e.g. forcing camouflaging onto autistic kids without knowing anything about the harm that unacknowledged camouflaging can do. (Yes I am not against having the tools, just forcing people to use them nonstop in some contexts with no support etc. etc., and autistics have very different emotional setups from both NTs and psychopaths on average I think.)
I have come to find this nauseating and am sort of avoiding it all now! Hoping to have the mental energy to get back to it more.
Some things I found bizarre... The researchers I have met at some local autism research symposia etc. didn't want to hear from actually autistic people about our experiences; I think I might have gotten lumped into some sort of "activist troublemaker" category in their brains. Or something totally different. But they didn't want to read or learn about autistic "camouflaging", which has some similarities (I think) to what Athena learned to do with "masking".
For autistics, "camouflaging" can be very emotionally stressful and likely connect with brain responses similar to ptsd. I can dig up some of the articles about that if anyone is interested... since many kids have experiences consistent with what is though to lead to ptsd anyway, it's hard to tease all this apart... but many autistics have such ramped-up sensory input without parents/families/schools/therapists/etc. understanding or "believing" this, that autistics can have many additional avenues to get experiences like that. Numerous autistics I've spoken to concur, I cannot prove anything about this of course and we don't have scientific consensus on our side.
The autism "experts" seem to mostly be concerned with how "normal" we act; so our autism is considered "milder" if we camouflage better, and the standard for ways to help us is always the NT norm no matter how useless it may be... we are not considered experts on ourselves because our perspectives are defective, I guess? Lots of groups have been in that position in the past though.
I would not have said any of this 10 years ago before knowing much of anything about autism (I only researched it post-diagnosis), but I did know that a lot of things weren't helping my stress levels yet some things did. Now I have contacts who can help with ideas on that.
But... how to move the monstrous leviathan blob of terrible science on "neurodivergent" conditions... Youch.
As you say, interesting. Thank you for sharing this; it was fascinating.
Looking at your experience here from the outside, it seems to me the cost-benefit is definitely in your favor because, if nothing else, it gives you a slew of information about how and why you are different from NT's -- which is something that puzzled the bejesus out of you for pretty much your whole life. If I were in your shoes, I would definitely be glad of knowing that.
Interesting too, that Dr Joe thought during your first session(s) with him that there might be "something bigger" going on. Did he ever elaborate on what specifically gave him that impression?
Interesting too that you were such an observer of micro-expressions from an early age. I've read a bunch of Ekman's work on micro-expressions, and am wondering if either you learned to mimic them and/or if you have a different set of micro-expressions: ie, a hidden absence of feeling tends to leak out, or annoyance that you try to hide leaks out (leaks out around a mask that you are presenting as "I'm not annoyed"). Especially since micro-expressions have essentially two causes: first when people are trying to hide something they truly feel, second when people are unaware of a subconscious feeling and that leaks out.
I have a cousin who is a clinical psychologist who thinks I am "interesting". I am quite sure that I do not want to be officially diagnosed nor even evaluated. Quite a bit of my life sounds like you though I spent time using various cultural things like religion to draw on for my masks
So I've spent much of my life running around rebelling against the social norms by not wearing a mask ultimately leading me into complete isolation I'm in my early thirties now just realizing how necessary a mask is yet I lose interest and just about everything I become interested in when it comes to having to deal with people and their emotions nothing seems to matter to me anymore or ever for that matter my dog is very important to me although she died today I wouldn't feel it tomorrow people don't understand this you don't understand me I don't understand me I think I'm cool I'm very talented extremely intelligent like a human lie detector but I don't like people and people don't like me my emotions I just not there and a mask I've never really wanted to wear it still don't I think the way that world is ran is absolutely ridiculous I think all decisions should be made intelligence over emotion whether it comes to poverty or publicity I think that neurotypicals are the reason this world is in such distress if we would did the band together to take over Control of the downward spiral this world has going on human race my survive but the way it looks it looks like it's going to implode I don't think we should have to wear masks I think that we should be accepted same as everyone else I don't know why we started to wear masks I've always known I was different as a child I knew I was different I've been in and out of mental institutions I survived off of disability income with no desire to make money when having to deal with people because of their disgusted reaction to the fact I have no reaction to their emotions I'm so talented and I deserve a chance but I'm not giving one because I refuse to wear mask so I sit here on whatever day today is posting a post on a website for whatever reason I don't think I'll ever get a brain scan I want one I know what I am I know the world has gotten psychopathy all wrong the word psychopath should be deleted from the English language cuz the description given when the words brought two light never give the reaction of a person with actual psychopathy is movies made about this I think we should have a lawsuit go on discrimination it's crazy were depicted as individuals that are evil when the only reason any of us go to the links a being evil it's because of the way the world treats us not wearing a mask it's exhausting
Interesting why it was expected to add your attitude to the test in the answer to the question about the test itself, not about how the test made you feel.
As for emotive words, I have asked several neurotypical people and all of them said that they had no reaction to emotive words. It was very weird to me why I was supposed to have it and so it was to them. Though it could be that they had it, it was too little to be noticed and would only show up on the scans.
Great to have this personal story. My response has a parallel to your clinician fishing for emotive language in your descriptions of the diagnostic process. When you refer to times you knew you didn't think or react like other people, I'm thinking, yes? Examples please? That time when this happened..., and that other incident when..., and after he said that, I thought.... etc etc. These details are not necessary to make your point, and as you have said before they have no emotional weight for you, but I am here wanting those specifics because they are so much a part of neurotypicals' anecdotes, even though in your case they would be what you thought rather than felt.
For myself I am wondering what diagnosis would be suitable (schizoid, autist, psychopathy linked etc.), but there is probably zero benefit in actually pursuing one. My psychology though, is completely hidden because it has been massively complicated by a physical condition that will have had unpredictable effects on brain chemistry. That used to be very bad and cause constant physiological fight or flight, as well as a host of other physical problems, but has improved now with technology.
I was going to make a joke about emotional thinking but I will not do that because it makes it look like I'm trying to be a psychopath!
As for your theory about answering honestly in tests, it’s interesting. I had to take the same test many times once and it only made me answer at random at the end, not be honest, because it requires concentration as well, I think.
Were you honest during the diagnostic process? How valid do you think these tests are?
Thank you for writing about this experience. I find it valuable to me as I have my diagnostic clarification testing coming early April. I have been looking and collecting information as to what I could expect before I have my getting to know introductions. It's been surprisingly difficult to find information from someone who has actually had the testing done.
Also, I appreciate your answers on Quora as well, which is where I found the link to your writings.
I think you were smart to get it done. I would recommend anyone with the means, to find out, as much as possible, how their mind/brain works. Life is difficult. Knowing why you act/think in certain ways can help you navigate life to the best of your ability. Not everyone is brave enough to delve deep and accept themselves, both strengths and weaknesses. It takes even more to address them. You have done all of this, and continue to do so. We all should, neurotypical or not. I wouldn’t downplay it, or advise people not to follow this path, if then can. Improve yourself, improve the world.
This reply got really long! Oops.
Getting a diagnosis can be helpful if good science is actually being done on the relevant condition. From what I've read in your writings, Athena, it sounds like a little bit of good science is being done on psychopathy, but the weight of the poor science, social bias, and idiocy is not in that camp.
I've been having that experience in reading on autism too. I spent a couple years post-diagnosis reading, making a few contacts with researchers, etc. The only helpful - and I'd say openminded - contacts have been pretty much been other autistic people, especially women for the issues that differ somewhat based upon sex.
Autism doesn't generally have the "serial killer" connotation in the public mind, though there is a bit of that in the media at least, and some folks lump everything "abnormal" together anyway. There is a strong "only 8-year-old white boys have it" assumption that's connected to a 30-year-old chicken-and-egg problem with scientists assuming false stuff and using terribly selected populations that confirm their bad theories. Plus probably some ego in some of the most "expert" scientists that won't let them repudiate their former theories. So young scientists keep quoting it and studying it. There is tons of money involved in forcing young autistics to act more "normal" so their parents feel less guilt, e.g. forcing camouflaging onto autistic kids without knowing anything about the harm that unacknowledged camouflaging can do. (Yes I am not against having the tools, just forcing people to use them nonstop in some contexts with no support etc. etc., and autistics have very different emotional setups from both NTs and psychopaths on average I think.)
I have come to find this nauseating and am sort of avoiding it all now! Hoping to have the mental energy to get back to it more.
Some things I found bizarre... The researchers I have met at some local autism research symposia etc. didn't want to hear from actually autistic people about our experiences; I think I might have gotten lumped into some sort of "activist troublemaker" category in their brains. Or something totally different. But they didn't want to read or learn about autistic "camouflaging", which has some similarities (I think) to what Athena learned to do with "masking".
For autistics, "camouflaging" can be very emotionally stressful and likely connect with brain responses similar to ptsd. I can dig up some of the articles about that if anyone is interested... since many kids have experiences consistent with what is though to lead to ptsd anyway, it's hard to tease all this apart... but many autistics have such ramped-up sensory input without parents/families/schools/therapists/etc. understanding or "believing" this, that autistics can have many additional avenues to get experiences like that. Numerous autistics I've spoken to concur, I cannot prove anything about this of course and we don't have scientific consensus on our side.
The autism "experts" seem to mostly be concerned with how "normal" we act; so our autism is considered "milder" if we camouflage better, and the standard for ways to help us is always the NT norm no matter how useless it may be... we are not considered experts on ourselves because our perspectives are defective, I guess? Lots of groups have been in that position in the past though.
I would not have said any of this 10 years ago before knowing much of anything about autism (I only researched it post-diagnosis), but I did know that a lot of things weren't helping my stress levels yet some things did. Now I have contacts who can help with ideas on that.
But... how to move the monstrous leviathan blob of terrible science on "neurodivergent" conditions... Youch.
As you say, interesting. Thank you for sharing this; it was fascinating.
Looking at your experience here from the outside, it seems to me the cost-benefit is definitely in your favor because, if nothing else, it gives you a slew of information about how and why you are different from NT's -- which is something that puzzled the bejesus out of you for pretty much your whole life. If I were in your shoes, I would definitely be glad of knowing that.
Interesting too, that Dr Joe thought during your first session(s) with him that there might be "something bigger" going on. Did he ever elaborate on what specifically gave him that impression?
Interesting too that you were such an observer of micro-expressions from an early age. I've read a bunch of Ekman's work on micro-expressions, and am wondering if either you learned to mimic them and/or if you have a different set of micro-expressions: ie, a hidden absence of feeling tends to leak out, or annoyance that you try to hide leaks out (leaks out around a mask that you are presenting as "I'm not annoyed"). Especially since micro-expressions have essentially two causes: first when people are trying to hide something they truly feel, second when people are unaware of a subconscious feeling and that leaks out.
I have a cousin who is a clinical psychologist who thinks I am "interesting". I am quite sure that I do not want to be officially diagnosed nor even evaluated. Quite a bit of my life sounds like you though I spent time using various cultural things like religion to draw on for my masks
So I've spent much of my life running around rebelling against the social norms by not wearing a mask ultimately leading me into complete isolation I'm in my early thirties now just realizing how necessary a mask is yet I lose interest and just about everything I become interested in when it comes to having to deal with people and their emotions nothing seems to matter to me anymore or ever for that matter my dog is very important to me although she died today I wouldn't feel it tomorrow people don't understand this you don't understand me I don't understand me I think I'm cool I'm very talented extremely intelligent like a human lie detector but I don't like people and people don't like me my emotions I just not there and a mask I've never really wanted to wear it still don't I think the way that world is ran is absolutely ridiculous I think all decisions should be made intelligence over emotion whether it comes to poverty or publicity I think that neurotypicals are the reason this world is in such distress if we would did the band together to take over Control of the downward spiral this world has going on human race my survive but the way it looks it looks like it's going to implode I don't think we should have to wear masks I think that we should be accepted same as everyone else I don't know why we started to wear masks I've always known I was different as a child I knew I was different I've been in and out of mental institutions I survived off of disability income with no desire to make money when having to deal with people because of their disgusted reaction to the fact I have no reaction to their emotions I'm so talented and I deserve a chance but I'm not giving one because I refuse to wear mask so I sit here on whatever day today is posting a post on a website for whatever reason I don't think I'll ever get a brain scan I want one I know what I am I know the world has gotten psychopathy all wrong the word psychopath should be deleted from the English language cuz the description given when the words brought two light never give the reaction of a person with actual psychopathy is movies made about this I think we should have a lawsuit go on discrimination it's crazy were depicted as individuals that are evil when the only reason any of us go to the links a being evil it's because of the way the world treats us not wearing a mask it's exhausting
Interesting why it was expected to add your attitude to the test in the answer to the question about the test itself, not about how the test made you feel.
As for emotive words, I have asked several neurotypical people and all of them said that they had no reaction to emotive words. It was very weird to me why I was supposed to have it and so it was to them. Though it could be that they had it, it was too little to be noticed and would only show up on the scans.
If not, just throw an example in here and there if it's relevant, I'm sure I'm not alone in being interested.
Great to have this personal story. My response has a parallel to your clinician fishing for emotive language in your descriptions of the diagnostic process. When you refer to times you knew you didn't think or react like other people, I'm thinking, yes? Examples please? That time when this happened..., and that other incident when..., and after he said that, I thought.... etc etc. These details are not necessary to make your point, and as you have said before they have no emotional weight for you, but I am here wanting those specifics because they are so much a part of neurotypicals' anecdotes, even though in your case they would be what you thought rather than felt.
That was a great post. Especially done with your first person perspective. I think many would find it valuable.
This is very interesting.
For myself I am wondering what diagnosis would be suitable (schizoid, autist, psychopathy linked etc.), but there is probably zero benefit in actually pursuing one. My psychology though, is completely hidden because it has been massively complicated by a physical condition that will have had unpredictable effects on brain chemistry. That used to be very bad and cause constant physiological fight or flight, as well as a host of other physical problems, but has improved now with technology.
I was going to make a joke about emotional thinking but I will not do that because it makes it look like I'm trying to be a psychopath!
As for your theory about answering honestly in tests, it’s interesting. I had to take the same test many times once and it only made me answer at random at the end, not be honest, because it requires concentration as well, I think.
Were you honest during the diagnostic process? How valid do you think these tests are?
Thank you for writing about this experience. I find it valuable to me as I have my diagnostic clarification testing coming early April. I have been looking and collecting information as to what I could expect before I have my getting to know introductions. It's been surprisingly difficult to find information from someone who has actually had the testing done.
Also, I appreciate your answers on Quora as well, which is where I found the link to your writings.
Very well written, and interesting