Lily is as common as they come. She hates what she doesn't understand. I hear this same trash all the time. I just want them to quit demonizing us. They make themselves look stupid but we have to deal with the consequences of their stupidity.
I believe their emotional empathy gives them a head start on a moral compass. It may take people like us more time to achieve cognitive empathy but I think in the grand scheme of things it gives us a better moral compass to live by. I think it is easier for us to understand neurotypical people than for them to understand us.
I have wondered about the understanding thing. As long as a neurotypical doesn't recoil in horror but makes a sincere effort to understand the experience of psychopathy, I think they can get quite close, because so many of the absent or diminished emotions really do have parallels in neurotypical experience at least some of the time. For a psycopath to imagine feeling entirely unfamiliar emotions seems more like imagining a colour you cannot see. I suppose it depends on whether by understanding you mean a cognitive appraisal of how neurotypicals work, or rather the subjective experience.
So many people wear a mask just to avoid the b.s. that comes from people like this. I believe Athena is correct, her articles are mostly fear based. Phycopaths are demons by no means and don't deserve the bad press
What kind of educational institution turns out a person like this? I HOPE her professors look at her articles, because this person needs intense correcting.
I don't disagree. She has this idea about psychopaths that not only is inaccurate, but it would fly in the face of how we are wired. There is no attempt to even speak to someone that is psychopathic. It seems what is preferred is this fantasy that she has created about us.
On second thoughts, it is entirely possible that she will blame the child for being self centered and raped by her father. We see this in rape victims today, don't we? Some people are so unbelievably callous, you would want to wish every terrible thing in the world happen to them , so they have an inkling of what it's like to be on the other side of pointed fingers.
I find that one amusing >>Psychopaths believe external factors are controlling them.<< that is a shizophrenia symptom. And yep I have it once in a while.
Well for me it is like if having a heavy headache I sometimes do ponder if it is some kind of evil curse or so, well these days I know that to be a false assumption and it amuses me.
However when I was younger I could drag myself into endless circles of who is currently cursing me for what reason. I never acted because of these thoughts, however had I in western countries I would have be looked at weirdly and be pittied.
That's interesting as well. I have heard that schizophrenia manifests quite differently in different countries and I find that fascinating. It seems the easy conclusion that how it presents is influenced by the society in which the person lives, but I wonder if it is more complex than that.
May 8, 2022·edited May 8, 2022Liked by Athena Walker
I do agree that from theoutsied this conclusion looks right, overall it may be that shizophrenia as a syndrome has a lot of facettes to it and each society finds a different to be at odds with their picture of what is a healthy behaviour.
My society does to an extend accept it as healthy behaviour to present bad mood and hefty complaint about something which one strongly dislikes. Other societies may not.
Overall I'm not sure how much the factor which I call "how a human is modelling hir surrounding" influences the measuring of any illness. For it would ask if a society accepted sneezing, coughing and fever as healthy behaviour would a cold be a sickness? And that seems illogical to me.
Think of it this way. We all believe things that are not true. However temporary they may (we hope!) be on our intellectual journey, we still do.. This is just another untrue belief like those that maybe we once held. A faith, an incorrect appraisal of someone's character, the Easter Bunny. There is no need to have felt psychosis to understand this.
It all just seems so random and made up on the fly. The person who doesn't understand why one denies crying might be on the spectrum, the person mentioning someone's shameful past just tactless and boorish, and the third experiencing psychosis. Or none of these!
Well, I know someone that is very kind to everyone. How much that can be considered "being a friend to everyone" I don't know. However, I also have known people that seem that way, but in reality are quite slimy. I suppose that the individual matters in this situation.
I notice that you mention one person who is genuinely kind, as opposed to people who are slimy. So it would seem that such people generally would have vested interests. Not all people, of course, but those will be few.
My son said you can tell bad people because they seem really nice at first and give you lots of stuff. I see a lot of truth in this. Beware the person who comes giving gifts, compliments, and is "too friendly". Most of the genuinely nice people I know, are gruff on their exterior. Like the biker reputation, but if anyone knows bikers, most have huge hearts. They just hide them well. I think our society looks at kindness as a weakness, but in reality, it takes a great deal of strength and resilience to be continually kind. Its easy to be mean and do or say hurtful things. It takes a lot of self control not to hit or verbally slay someone. To add Grace and kindness on top of that restraint is a skill to be proud of. Sometimes its easy to be kind, but sometimes it is most definitely not.
My best friend was the kind of man who everyone thought of as their best friend. When he died, over 100 people felt like they had lost one of the few people who genuinely cared about them. Since he passed, that is how I choose to live my life. I want the people around me to know someone loves them and accepts them as they are, but always pushes them to be their best without putting them down.
I agree with your son's position. One percentors tend to be rather affable if you get to know them and aren't bothered by the crime aspect, but very dangerous looking on the outside.
I wonder what her mental diagnosis is, out of sheer curiosity at this point. I would love to see her write about sociopaths for another good laugh. Its not funny tho because people belive this garbage and eat it up. Thank you for the time you spend debunking
Interestingly, she has stated in a few of her articles that she has borderline personality disorder. I have known a few people that have had this and while they have their struggles, they are lovely people.
On the other hand, when I write, often the people I get the most vehement hatred from are people that will directly tell me that they have BPD, and for whatever reason they think psychopaths are beyond evil. I don't know what it is about psychopathy that sets off these specific individuals that have BPD, but it is a pattern that I have noticed.
Interesting indeed. I think a great deal of that perspective from some Borderlines comes down to individual personality yet again. You have not stated this, but I think it's easy to fall into the trap of assuming that because those with BPD experience intense emotions, that this must be the reason behind the inability of some of them to, well, see reason. A highly emotional person is as capable of reasoning as a fairly unemotional person, so long as they don't let their emotions cloud their judgement. It is similar to what you mention frequently about psychopaths, Athena, and how they are lumped into one and judged as a whole, rather than as individuals. The same happens to borderlines, and to narcissists in regards to 'narcissistic abuse'. The cognitive need for humans to categorise things and attribute qualities and stereotypes to these groups and failing to analyse individual things often seems to be to our detriment.
May 6, 2022·edited May 6, 2022Liked by Athena Walker
I am guilty of this placing people into categories, like organizing library books. When i get emotional i fall into the black and white thinking pattern. Everything is either all good or all bad, including people. We all know this isnt true. I have to walk away until I calm down, there is no getting thru to me until I do. I can rationalize and feel empathy when calm easily. When upset, not at all. Its taken me years to learn this about myself and how to take steps to calm down and communicate my need to calm down and process before I respond. Most people respect that. The ones that don't I cut out of my life. I do not want to be angry or violent and I remove anyone from my circle who makes me feel like I want to hurt them. I have a rather large friend group, relationships I have maintained for over 20 years. There are only a handful of people who make me deeply angry and then have continued to push my buttons like a child who is mischievous and curious, wanting to see how far we will go. The answer is farther than they really want to go, and that's not something I allow to be brought out of me.
I totally get where you are coming from. I did eventually get beyond it, as you are doing. You have expressed very well what it is like to have BPD, or just be, as we say now, "messed up". The different headspaces, the buttons, you've nailed it.
It feels good to be able to talk about it around people who understand and especially those who are self aware and can carry on a conversation about it reasonably. Your comments always give my brain something to chew on. I was musing over your last comment that i hadn't had time to respond to, I would like my response to have some substance to it lol
People on this forum come up with very interesting stuff, and have their own takes on conditions. It fills a lot of my headspace too, which is maybe no bad thing with the current state of the world.
I suspect the folks with BPD who react that way must be confusing psychopaths with either narcissists or sociopaths. OTOH, you did state these are reactions to thing you have written -- so -- I dunno. Maybe it's the whole "I don't care about you" aspect of psychopathy. As I understand it, folks with BPD have severe abandonment issues. So that could be the nerve you are hitting there.
This is news to me about borderlines hating phycopaths. I have a bad taste in my mouth from narcs, but overall I feel sorry for them. They are not the same. I do think that maybe there would be some jealousy maybe if you consider the "heirchy" as phycopaths are at the top of the chain, so to speak. I wonder if most people lump phycopathy and narcissism into the same group. I have seen some of the ugly thibgs said to you on Quora. It is overwhelmingly awful. Kindof makes me want to speak up like you do, but I do not have the patience you do, not by far. I respect you and your opinions highly. I am sorry for all the hatred that comes your way. You are a genuinely nice person who's changing people's views in a factual and interesting way I think.
This kind of thing isn't even psychopath- vs non-psychopath anymore but rather people who live in reality vs people who don't. Social media, these articles, etc. seems to be influencing the proportion of one to the other.
I would love to see the look on her face after finishing a lunch date or meeting or something then to find out shed shared the afternoon with a "real live "psycopath. I always wonder what her tune would be then? Would someine like this openly apologize or write some article that she feared for her life? Lol. This lady will prob never talk to a psycopath because I doubt they'd give two shits about a finger pointing drama queen like her!
The reason she has no clue about psycopathy is because she's never met one! A psycopath doesn't give two shits about a dramatic finger pointing drama queen!lol. Shes describing narscissists.
I wonder if you also send your articles directly to the ever-entertaining Lily Hale or others.
On another note, I have removed all sentences and references or links out of my minimal writing regarding animals and climate change of anyone's human condition for lack of a better word. (I had removed it earlier but, in my ignorance, the website did not update).
It would appear that a person who is a psychopath is not in the market for power (over seemingly illogical and inconsistent dim wits :)) so there are not likely many psychopaths at all, if any in politics. It seems many neurotypicals are attracted to and corrupted by power and a psychopath would not be.
I wonder if this is now somewhat correct.
However a psychopath may also want to be a politician to make certain changes (especially in education!) and/or personal monetary reasons or interests pretty much like everyone else however without the groping for power without reason.
One of the readers here tried to give her some feedback and direct her to some of my writing for clarity. She was immediately rebuked and told that she (Lily) knew what she was talking about and was not interested in hearing anything else.
Indeed, I had an interaction with someone on Quora (someone with a PhD in psychology, too, who'd written his dissertation on psychopathy-a-la-the-Hale-cr#p). I pointed out that his "gold standard" about psychopathy was researched in and designed for use in prisons, therefore making it irrelevant to the general population, and suggested that he read your stuff to learn more, and he said he would not do that "because psychopaths lie." So I suggested that he at least read the neuroscience that you cite. And at that point, I didn't hear back. But at least I provided a drop on the stone. (A la Chinese water torture, or simply just dissolving the stone, one drop at a time.) BTW, he'd been talking about how all psychopaths are narcissists, and I told him those two are incompatible because psychopaths cannot have the intense feelings that characterize NPD.
Yes, especially since he seems to be especially interested in both psychopathy and personality disorders. And with a PhD, that suggests he wants to do either therapy or research. Hopefully I planted a seed with the comment about neuroscience.
The problem with the accepted view of the establishment is exactly that. People often get entrenched in "what they know" and resist changing their minds or coming to see a different perspective. A good friend of mine got a PhD in material science by discovering and describing a completely different idea about how to look at the structure of silicon/glass molecules. Instead of looking at positions described by their x, y, z coordinate locations, she took the point of view of a specific atom in the molecule, then looked at its neighbors and examined the ring structures. She built extensive tetrahedra around this concept. But her field pretty much just ignored her and wasn't interested. I believe something similar is going on re psychopathy, and I don't envy you your uphill battle.
Lily is as common as they come. She hates what she doesn't understand. I hear this same trash all the time. I just want them to quit demonizing us. They make themselves look stupid but we have to deal with the consequences of their stupidity.
It's so strange to me that people can believe that they are empathetic and yet think this way. It is so unusual.
I believe their emotional empathy gives them a head start on a moral compass. It may take people like us more time to achieve cognitive empathy but I think in the grand scheme of things it gives us a better moral compass to live by. I think it is easier for us to understand neurotypical people than for them to understand us.
Due to being in neurotypical university from the time we are born, I would agree with you.
I have wondered about the understanding thing. As long as a neurotypical doesn't recoil in horror but makes a sincere effort to understand the experience of psychopathy, I think they can get quite close, because so many of the absent or diminished emotions really do have parallels in neurotypical experience at least some of the time. For a psycopath to imagine feeling entirely unfamiliar emotions seems more like imagining a colour you cannot see. I suppose it depends on whether by understanding you mean a cognitive appraisal of how neurotypicals work, or rather the subjective experience.
So many people wear a mask just to avoid the b.s. that comes from people like this. I believe Athena is correct, her articles are mostly fear based. Phycopaths are demons by no means and don't deserve the bad press
I agree. Give the bad press to individuals. Some psychopaths are d*cks. Let them handle all the fallout from their d*ckishness.
What kind of educational institution turns out a person like this? I HOPE her professors look at her articles, because this person needs intense correcting.
I don't disagree. She has this idea about psychopaths that not only is inaccurate, but it would fly in the face of how we are wired. There is no attempt to even speak to someone that is psychopathic. It seems what is preferred is this fantasy that she has created about us.
On second thoughts, it is entirely possible that she will blame the child for being self centered and raped by her father. We see this in rape victims today, don't we? Some people are so unbelievably callous, you would want to wish every terrible thing in the world happen to them , so they have an inkling of what it's like to be on the other side of pointed fingers.
That may be true, but a mental health professional should be better.
I find that one amusing >>Psychopaths believe external factors are controlling them.<< that is a shizophrenia symptom. And yep I have it once in a while.
Interesting. I can't even imagine what that is like.
Well for me it is like if having a heavy headache I sometimes do ponder if it is some kind of evil curse or so, well these days I know that to be a false assumption and it amuses me.
However when I was younger I could drag myself into endless circles of who is currently cursing me for what reason. I never acted because of these thoughts, however had I in western countries I would have be looked at weirdly and be pittied.
That's interesting as well. I have heard that schizophrenia manifests quite differently in different countries and I find that fascinating. It seems the easy conclusion that how it presents is influenced by the society in which the person lives, but I wonder if it is more complex than that.
I do agree that from theoutsied this conclusion looks right, overall it may be that shizophrenia as a syndrome has a lot of facettes to it and each society finds a different to be at odds with their picture of what is a healthy behaviour.
My society does to an extend accept it as healthy behaviour to present bad mood and hefty complaint about something which one strongly dislikes. Other societies may not.
Overall I'm not sure how much the factor which I call "how a human is modelling hir surrounding" influences the measuring of any illness. For it would ask if a society accepted sneezing, coughing and fever as healthy behaviour would a cold be a sickness? And that seems illogical to me.
An excellent point
Think of it this way. We all believe things that are not true. However temporary they may (we hope!) be on our intellectual journey, we still do.. This is just another untrue belief like those that maybe we once held. A faith, an incorrect appraisal of someone's character, the Easter Bunny. There is no need to have felt psychosis to understand this.
It all just seems so random and made up on the fly. The person who doesn't understand why one denies crying might be on the spectrum, the person mentioning someone's shameful past just tactless and boorish, and the third experiencing psychosis. Or none of these!
'Someone who is everybody's friend is nobody's friend'-. How much truth is there in this statement?Have you ever encountered someone like this?
I know this is off topic but I cannot help ask questions when I have such an unbiased source of opinions.
Well, I know someone that is very kind to everyone. How much that can be considered "being a friend to everyone" I don't know. However, I also have known people that seem that way, but in reality are quite slimy. I suppose that the individual matters in this situation.
I notice that you mention one person who is genuinely kind, as opposed to people who are slimy. So it would seem that such people generally would have vested interests. Not all people, of course, but those will be few.
My son said you can tell bad people because they seem really nice at first and give you lots of stuff. I see a lot of truth in this. Beware the person who comes giving gifts, compliments, and is "too friendly". Most of the genuinely nice people I know, are gruff on their exterior. Like the biker reputation, but if anyone knows bikers, most have huge hearts. They just hide them well. I think our society looks at kindness as a weakness, but in reality, it takes a great deal of strength and resilience to be continually kind. Its easy to be mean and do or say hurtful things. It takes a lot of self control not to hit or verbally slay someone. To add Grace and kindness on top of that restraint is a skill to be proud of. Sometimes its easy to be kind, but sometimes it is most definitely not.
My best friend was the kind of man who everyone thought of as their best friend. When he died, over 100 people felt like they had lost one of the few people who genuinely cared about them. Since he passed, that is how I choose to live my life. I want the people around me to know someone loves them and accepts them as they are, but always pushes them to be their best without putting them down.
I agree with your son's position. One percentors tend to be rather affable if you get to know them and aren't bothered by the crime aspect, but very dangerous looking on the outside.
I wonder what her mental diagnosis is, out of sheer curiosity at this point. I would love to see her write about sociopaths for another good laugh. Its not funny tho because people belive this garbage and eat it up. Thank you for the time you spend debunking
Interestingly, she has stated in a few of her articles that she has borderline personality disorder. I have known a few people that have had this and while they have their struggles, they are lovely people.
On the other hand, when I write, often the people I get the most vehement hatred from are people that will directly tell me that they have BPD, and for whatever reason they think psychopaths are beyond evil. I don't know what it is about psychopathy that sets off these specific individuals that have BPD, but it is a pattern that I have noticed.
Interesting indeed. I think a great deal of that perspective from some Borderlines comes down to individual personality yet again. You have not stated this, but I think it's easy to fall into the trap of assuming that because those with BPD experience intense emotions, that this must be the reason behind the inability of some of them to, well, see reason. A highly emotional person is as capable of reasoning as a fairly unemotional person, so long as they don't let their emotions cloud their judgement. It is similar to what you mention frequently about psychopaths, Athena, and how they are lumped into one and judged as a whole, rather than as individuals. The same happens to borderlines, and to narcissists in regards to 'narcissistic abuse'. The cognitive need for humans to categorise things and attribute qualities and stereotypes to these groups and failing to analyse individual things often seems to be to our detriment.
I agree, it comes down to that individual.
I am guilty of this placing people into categories, like organizing library books. When i get emotional i fall into the black and white thinking pattern. Everything is either all good or all bad, including people. We all know this isnt true. I have to walk away until I calm down, there is no getting thru to me until I do. I can rationalize and feel empathy when calm easily. When upset, not at all. Its taken me years to learn this about myself and how to take steps to calm down and communicate my need to calm down and process before I respond. Most people respect that. The ones that don't I cut out of my life. I do not want to be angry or violent and I remove anyone from my circle who makes me feel like I want to hurt them. I have a rather large friend group, relationships I have maintained for over 20 years. There are only a handful of people who make me deeply angry and then have continued to push my buttons like a child who is mischievous and curious, wanting to see how far we will go. The answer is farther than they really want to go, and that's not something I allow to be brought out of me.
I totally get where you are coming from. I did eventually get beyond it, as you are doing. You have expressed very well what it is like to have BPD, or just be, as we say now, "messed up". The different headspaces, the buttons, you've nailed it.
It feels good to be able to talk about it around people who understand and especially those who are self aware and can carry on a conversation about it reasonably. Your comments always give my brain something to chew on. I was musing over your last comment that i hadn't had time to respond to, I would like my response to have some substance to it lol
People on this forum come up with very interesting stuff, and have their own takes on conditions. It fills a lot of my headspace too, which is maybe no bad thing with the current state of the world.
Excellent point.
I suspect the folks with BPD who react that way must be confusing psychopaths with either narcissists or sociopaths. OTOH, you did state these are reactions to thing you have written -- so -- I dunno. Maybe it's the whole "I don't care about you" aspect of psychopathy. As I understand it, folks with BPD have severe abandonment issues. So that could be the nerve you are hitting there.
I think you are right about this.
This is news to me about borderlines hating phycopaths. I have a bad taste in my mouth from narcs, but overall I feel sorry for them. They are not the same. I do think that maybe there would be some jealousy maybe if you consider the "heirchy" as phycopaths are at the top of the chain, so to speak. I wonder if most people lump phycopathy and narcissism into the same group. I have seen some of the ugly thibgs said to you on Quora. It is overwhelmingly awful. Kindof makes me want to speak up like you do, but I do not have the patience you do, not by far. I respect you and your opinions highly. I am sorry for all the hatred that comes your way. You are a genuinely nice person who's changing people's views in a factual and interesting way I think.
Thank you, Janette
I think she is just describing someone with absurdly low levels of self-esteem, leading to paranoia, and a manipulative nature.
That is logically consistent.
This kind of thing isn't even psychopath- vs non-psychopath anymore but rather people who live in reality vs people who don't. Social media, these articles, etc. seems to be influencing the proportion of one to the other.
Yes, I agree
I would love to see the look on her face after finishing a lunch date or meeting or something then to find out shed shared the afternoon with a "real live "psycopath. I always wonder what her tune would be then? Would someine like this openly apologize or write some article that she feared for her life? Lol. This lady will prob never talk to a psycopath because I doubt they'd give two shits about a finger pointing drama queen like her!
The reason she has no clue about psycopathy is because she's never met one! A psycopath doesn't give two shits about a dramatic finger pointing drama queen!lol. Shes describing narscissists.
I wonder if you also send your articles directly to the ever-entertaining Lily Hale or others.
On another note, I have removed all sentences and references or links out of my minimal writing regarding animals and climate change of anyone's human condition for lack of a better word. (I had removed it earlier but, in my ignorance, the website did not update).
It would appear that a person who is a psychopath is not in the market for power (over seemingly illogical and inconsistent dim wits :)) so there are not likely many psychopaths at all, if any in politics. It seems many neurotypicals are attracted to and corrupted by power and a psychopath would not be.
I wonder if this is now somewhat correct.
However a psychopath may also want to be a politician to make certain changes (especially in education!) and/or personal monetary reasons or interests pretty much like everyone else however without the groping for power without reason.
One of the readers here tried to give her some feedback and direct her to some of my writing for clarity. She was immediately rebuked and told that she (Lily) knew what she was talking about and was not interested in hearing anything else.
Indeed, I had an interaction with someone on Quora (someone with a PhD in psychology, too, who'd written his dissertation on psychopathy-a-la-the-Hale-cr#p). I pointed out that his "gold standard" about psychopathy was researched in and designed for use in prisons, therefore making it irrelevant to the general population, and suggested that he read your stuff to learn more, and he said he would not do that "because psychopaths lie." So I suggested that he at least read the neuroscience that you cite. And at that point, I didn't hear back. But at least I provided a drop on the stone. (A la Chinese water torture, or simply just dissolving the stone, one drop at a time.) BTW, he'd been talking about how all psychopaths are narcissists, and I told him those two are incompatible because psychopaths cannot have the intense feelings that characterize NPD.
It's unfortunate that he is unwilling to advance his knowledge.
Yes, especially since he seems to be especially interested in both psychopathy and personality disorders. And with a PhD, that suggests he wants to do either therapy or research. Hopefully I planted a seed with the comment about neuroscience.
The problem with the accepted view of the establishment is exactly that. People often get entrenched in "what they know" and resist changing their minds or coming to see a different perspective. A good friend of mine got a PhD in material science by discovering and describing a completely different idea about how to look at the structure of silicon/glass molecules. Instead of looking at positions described by their x, y, z coordinate locations, she took the point of view of a specific atom in the molecule, then looked at its neighbors and examined the ring structures. She built extensive tetrahedra around this concept. But her field pretty much just ignored her and wasn't interested. I believe something similar is going on re psychopathy, and I don't envy you your uphill battle.
Fighting these battles at work these days... ugh not easy. It's very difficult to convince others of a different paradigm all together.
Indeed